Sky Marshals - SAMRA

[student-mork]

Hi all,

Does anyone know what the current situation is on Sky Marshals with respect to JAA and CAA flights? As far as I knew BALPA vetoed the proposal, probably quite wisely.
The reason Im asking is that I've come across a site [EDITED to remove site name] that claims to be recruiting for the aforementioned post.
I have to say that I smell a rat as they want 20 pounds off you just to process your application!
Their office address alsos sounds like its one of those pretend pay 50 quid a week and have your mail sent to an expensive address jobs.
Im not interested myself but would like to confirm my suspicions before warning other guys in the security industry off.


Comments?

[HZ123]

Probably a crack pot scheme to part you from your monies as I fail to see who will recruit you and pay you. There are many agencys out there offering all sorts of products particularly aviation security. Many of the people involved on them have little or no experience with the exception of their annual holiday flight. Steer well clear, if you want to get involved with the security inductry try someone like CR24.

[SAMRA]

Dear Sir

We read your post on http://www.pprune.org

Please assure yourself of your suspicions by first directing your queries to us before publicly posting them on a website.

By the way, you are quite right, the CAA did in fact veto armed air marshals for the UK, However, do now and then place air marshals from SO19 on transatlantic flights. The FAA and other international bodies including many international carriers have an active air marshal system in place, many of which, who are our clients wish to remain anonymous for obvious reasons.

A great deal of this information is contained in our website

The £20 admin/application fee is merely to cover our costs AND to separate the serious applicants from the jokers. All applications will be processed as of August 1st 2005 - our official start date.

Kindest regards

Yours faithfully

Mr Bryan John Oliver Matthews MBChB MRCOphth

[stagger]

P.S. we did receive your applicationWhat sort of security operation acknowledges receipt of an application, for an undercover post, in a public interet forum?:confused:

[student-mork]

Thanks for the replies everyone.
In respect to xxxx, I should state that the site was brought to my attention by a colleague. I have not made an application. Proof of this can be found by referring to my pasts posts on PPRUNE and my personal profile ( I have a fATPL ,am ex- army, his background is somewhat different)
I was merely investigating the legal aspects of airmarshals before considering any application.
My aim in posting on this forum was to utilise the members pool of knowledge to examine the industry. I did not contact xxxx as I wanted to be sure of an impartial response.
That said, we can put the lawyers back in their cages!

Further comments welcomed.

[SAMRA]

No problem at all, sorry about the comment about the application, I did actually mean to say 'have we received your applcation?', not we have.

Comments noted so apolagies.

[stagger]

Some Google searching reveals that a great deal of the text on the xxxxx website has been lifted, verbatim, and without credit, from the US Immigration and Customs Enforcement webpages on the Federal Air Marshal Service. And then at the bottom of each xxxxxx page there is a "© Copyright 2005. xxxxx". A bit cheeky?

Mr Matthews - do you mind if I ask you a question. You give your name as...

Mr Bryan John Oliver Matthews MBChB MRCOphth

MBChB is a medical degree. MRCOphth - opthamology.

Just wondering why you don't use the title DR? Surely you're entitled to?

You don't by any chance live in Rochdale do you?

[SAMRA]

As you are unaware and for your benefit I will explain. Once you have completed all examinations to become a member of the Royal College of Ophthalmologists you use the title 'Mr.'

Just to answer all questions, xxxxxx is a partnership registered in the Isle of Man.

If you refer to our mission statement on the website you will see we do in fact make credit to US Immigration and Customs.

If you read the information contained on the website thoroughly I am sure all your questions will be answered, however if you require anymore information please do not hesitate to contact us via the website.



Regards

SAMRA

[stagger]

Ok - thanks for the clarification on the DR thing.

But what about Rochdale? Any connection by any chance?

I wasn't asking about where the company is registered. I was just wondering whether you lived or perhaps once lived in Rochdale?

[BOAC]

I have received a complaint from the owner of this company regarding what he considers to be 'unfair' allegations of possible improprietry levelled via Pprune and this thread. Text below:

"I am one of the partners of a company called xxxxx recruitment agency based both in UK and US.

I would like to report a thread relating to our organisation and the apparent suppositions to it being a con.

We are a well respected and established organisation who work VERY hard at what we do and I would if possible like to request that that thread be removed.

I hope you can help us."

In order to be absolutely fair to ALL I have edited ALL threads above to remove the company name and website info also since direct commercial links are also not allowed on PPrune.

Unsubstantiated allegations will not be permitted here. If these persist, or any other link to the company website appears, we will remove the thread in toto.

There is, of course, another 'duty' we have as moderators and that is to try to ensure 'fair play' for those trying to seek employment. That said, if anyone has any FIRM evidence of any 'shady doings' then please send them to either Pprune Pop or myself and we will give due consideration to any further action.

Out of interest, the signatory was 'Dr' Bryan Matthews

[Engineer]

What raised an eye brow was para 17 of the Profile Course Program web page on the company site.
Questioning and interviewing techniques
Advanced training will be given to provide the Air Marshal with the above techniques. These techniques are viewed to be highly confidential and will only be disclosed to candidates whilst on the course.
Was under the impression that question and interviewing was carried out by the police force sounds rather ominous.

Having flown with sky marshalls in the past their mandate was to contain any situation but all ways report to the captain. On arrival at LHR were met by the Met where the weapons were handed over for safe keeping until the outbound leg

But it appears that the world is a changing :(

[MerchantVenturer]

Engineer

I presume you are talking about sky marshals operating into the UK on non-UK registered aircraft. Obviously these individuals could not legally possess such weapons once they had entered Britain, hence the handing over of them to the Metropolitan Police at LHR.

The company representative stated in an earlier post in this thread, "....................... the CAA did in fact veto armed air marshals for the UK, However, do now and then place air marshals from SO19 on transatlantic flights."

SO19 is of course the Firearms Unit of the Metropolitan Police. When he says, "However, do now and then place air marshals from SO19 on transatlantic flights," I presume he has missed out the word 'they' (ie the Met Police), otherwise the piece could be construed to read that xxxxx have in some way control over police officers, which scenario I find impossible to believe.

[In order to be absolutely fair to ALL I have edited ALL threads above to remove the company name and website info also since direct commercial links are also not allowed on PPrune.[

[BOAC]

SAMRA - it would be a help if you could confirm you are not the Dr Bryan Matthews of Rochdale listed as being disqualified from being a company director?

I am sure you will accept that there is a slight air of doubt regarding the venture in view of the request for money, the lack of company info and the similarity in names, not to mention your location and the suggestion of plagiarism on your site.

At Pprune we have a responsibilty to protect our members from parting with cash unnecessarily, and such a request in fact is not legal in the UK - which of course you are not, strictly. Be assured these are our only motives here.

[Re-Heat]

SAMRA - as mentioned above - so as to ensure that those seeking employment can legitimately know the details of the company to whom they are potentially applying and to whom they are to hand over some money, can you confirm if you are or are not the Dr Bryan Matthews, who has the following information in the public domain at Companies House?

I will gladly delete as appropriate if this is incorrect, however I am sure that we want to be certain of facts - BOAC - feel free to edit if required; drop me a PM.

DR BRYAN MATTHEWS
Nationality: BRITISH
Date of Birth: 27/09/1974
Address: 15 ST JOHNS COURT, ROCHDALE, LANCASHIRE, OL16 5TF

Type: Disqualified/Previous Director

Previous Appointments:
03217442 LONLOC LIMITED Previous Director, Dissolved 3/4/2001
03893644 EXCEL LOCUMS LIMITED Previous Director, Dissolved 30/3/2003

Fellow directors/secretary of EXCEL LOCUMS LIMITED:
Co Secretary: ADRIAN JOHN MATTHEWS
Nationality: BRITISH
Date Appointed: 11/01/2000
Date of Birth: 22/01/1965
Home Address: 15 ST JOHNS COURT, ROCHDALE, LANCASHIRE, OL16 5TF
Occupation: PILOT

Who was in turn previously a director of 03478287 SECURITY LEISURE LIMITED, dissolved 24/04/2001, and
DREAM VENTURES LIMITED, 15 SAINT JOHNS COURT, ROCHDALE, LANCASHIRE, OL16 5TF

Companies House records note that a ADRIAN JOHN MATTHEWS
(22/01/1965) of OL16 5TF was disqualified from being a director on 26/02/2003 ntil 25/02/2008 (60 months) under CCDD Section CDDA 1986 S6.

Companies House records note that a BRYAN MATTHEWS
(27/09/1974) of OL16 5TF was disqualified from being a director on 26/02/2003 until 25/02/2007 (48 months) under CCDD Section CDDA 1986 S6

DISQUALIFICATION FOR UNFITNESS(s. 6)
6 Duty of court to disqualify unfit directors of insolvent companies
6(1) [Court's duty] The court shall make a disqualification order against a person in any case where, on an application under this section, it is satisfied
(a) that he is or has been a director of a company which has at any time become insolvent (whether while he was a director or subsequently), and
(b) that his conduct as a director of that company (either taken alone or taken together with his conduct as a director of any other company or companies) makes him unfit to be concerned in the management of a company.

6(2) [Interpretation] For the purposes of this section and the next, a company becomes insolvent if
(a) the company goes into liquidation at a time when its assets are insufficient for the payment of its debts and other liabilities and the expenses of the winding up,
(b) an administration order is made in relation to the company, or
(c) an administrative receiver of the company is appointed;
and references to a person's conduct as a director of any company or companies include, where that company or any of those companies has become insolvent, that person's conduct in relation to any matter connected with or arising out of the insolvency of that company.

6(3) [Definitions] In this section and the next "the court" means
(a) in the case of a person who is or has been a director of a company which is being wound up by the court, the court by which the company is being wound up,
(b) in the case of a person who is or has been a director of a company which is being wound up voluntarily, any court having jurisdiction to wind up the company,
(c) in the case of a person who is or has been a director of a company in relation to which an administration order is in force, the court by which that order was made, and
(d) in any other case, the High Court or, in Scotland, the Court of Session;
and in both sections "director" includes a shadow director.

6(4) [Minimum, maximum periods] Under this section the minimum period of disqualification is 2 years, and the maximum period is 15 years.


Alternatively are you instead MR BRYAN JOHN MATTHEWS with the following details?

Nationality: BRITISH
Date of Birth: 12/11/1938
Address: 17 CLYFFE PYPARD, BROAD HINTON, SWINDON, WILTSHIRE, SN4 7PY


One additional point:

Obviously such a company may wish to remain shady for security reasons, however both the US address in DC and the UK address listed at the website are actually listed as maildrops - contrary to what the location information would suggest from the website. From maildropguide.com:

What is maildrop?
A Maildrop is a secure address, recognised by the postal service, where you can rent a box and effectively use it as postal address. One with which you are not physically associated or obviously connected. The operators of the Maildrop service will receive mail on your behalf. They will either store it until you call to collect or they will remail it to a third party address depending on any prearranged agreement or instruction. In effect, a Maildrop is an alternative to your residential or business address and can be used for business or personal purposes.

Mail Boxes Etc. #480
4410 MASSACHUSETTS AVE NW, WASHINGTON, 20016 D.C., United States

Mail Boxes Etc. # UK008
56 GLOUCESTER ROAD, KENSINGTON, LONDON, SW7 4UB , United Kingdom

Just to point out to potential applicants that such an address is in fact not an office, and also that the terms for payment on the applications page do not work, so that the terms under which you would be paying them are not able to be viewed.


Furthermore, the page of history text on that website is lifted directly from http://www.ice.gov/graphics/fams/history.htm

Furthermore - information from http://www.pathfinder-one.com/Pages/articles/0309debrief.htm under debrief response, indicates that the aforementioned company has been about for a couple of years, contrary to the website listing as 2004-2005?

[Boss Raptor]

I was under the impression that under English law you are not entitled/allowed to charge an applicant for employment consideration/job interview - although that being said I cannot (yet) quote verbatim the why's and wherefores (Ryanair being an Irish company don't count)

I am also slightly surprised that any bona fide operator/organisation utilising an agent for such particularly sensitive 'secure' matters is/has not been prepared to fund such recruitment and/or recompense the agent for their costs inclusive in the agency fee/agreement

...and somewhere down the line do they not need a license from DWP?

http://www.dti.gov.uk/er/agency/regs-pl971.htm#who

http://www.dti.gov.uk/er/agency/regs-pl971.htm#excluded

http://www.dti.gov.uk/er/agency/regs-pl971.htm#fees2

Who the Act applies to

The Act applies to employment agencies and employment businesses whether they are carried on by commercial concerns for profit or by non-profit-making bodies. This includes those that deal with au pairs and with freelance or self-employed workers as well as those that deal only with workers on a normal contract of employment.

Employment agencies
Under the Act an 'employment agency' is defined as the business of providing services (whether by the provision of information or otherwise) for the purpose of finding workers employment with employers or of supplying employers with workers for employment by them. The Act thus applies to a wide range of agencies, from the familiar recruitment agency, through a range of specialist agencies to entertainment and model agents, the executive selection functions of management consultants and executive search consultants.

Employment businesses
The other kind of activity covered, the 'employment business', is defined as the business of supplying people in the employment of the person carrying on the business, to act for, and under the control of, other people in any capacity.

This covers the hiring out of workers on a temporary basis and is frequently called 'temping'. It has long been associated with the supply of temporary secretarial and other office staff, but has extended into many other areas, including professional and industrial occupations.

Fees

Employment agencies and employment businesses are prohibited from charging fees to workers for finding or seeking to find them jobs.

Infringement of the Act and regulations

Anyone who:

contravenes the prohibition on charging fees to workers

?

[PPRuNe Pop]

This thread has reached the point where it is time to state some facts for the benefit of anyone considering joining in this very obvious breach of the law i.e. it is illegal to collect money from anyone who is seeking employment. Agencies get their fees from the EMPLOYER. NOT the EMPLOYEE. That is clear. If you pass over any money you are probably participating in a scam. The suggestion that the fee is for expenses is absurd and should not be given any cedibility at all. Under UK law they cannot and should not collect any money for offering you work.

The evidence that one or two of our esteemed readers have provided is good enough for me and for my colleague and PPRuNe itself.

Disqualified Directors are usually prevented from acting as such for a period of 10 years. As Re-Heat shows the people he has exposed are disqualified for the periods shown.

You are strongly advised to avoid contact with this 'company' and to advise the police if you are unhappy with any aspect that has affected you thus far.

Also read what Boss Raptor has laid out above. The links he has provided will lead you to the law.

The facts which have come to light more than suggest that this is not a reputable agency. The illegal aspects appear to confirm that.


PPP

[student-mork]

Thanks to all Ppruners that contributed to this thread, I was staggered at the depth of knowledge displayed by you all. I previously said that I would "warn off" others in the security industry but I feel that the content of the preceding debate to be of such a high standard that I will post a link on a similar forum but in the security industry and let others read it and make their own minds up. I certainly have.

[PPRuNe Pop]

The thread is now closed. Further debate on this matter is no longer worthwhile I think, so we will call it a day.

Thanks very much for the valuable, concise and knowledgable posts. PPRuNe has a nice habit of looking after its own. ;)