Busting Out, help me run!

[Scale 21]

Ladies & Gentlemen,

When we PVR or NGR our FP drops a level. I think that stinks.
There are past aviators from the RAF that have contested this and won. If that is you or you know someone who did it, please let me know.

I've NGR'd and I'm fighting this as I disagree with it totally- especially as 'the book' says that FP 'forms part of earnings'.

If that is so, cutting FP because you are leaving is cutting our pay.
There are a few peoples (all branches) about to do the same, if you can help, you'll be helping many of us, not just me.

If the RAF can do it for 1, past or present, they can do it for all of us. After all, there are no individuals in the military!

Help if you can please.

Scale 21

[giveitsome]

S21

Not sure you will win this one (bureaucracy at its best), however on the lighter side. Discharge-Find a nice little airline, nude up in the cockpit with a Santa scalf on, Glass of champagne in hand with a buxom hostee on your knee (nude optional), take a photo and send the image to the ministry of defence with a snappy quip attached to the e-mail.

"Lads wish you were here, never mind the Bollocks!!!", missing you (not!) SQNLDR Bloggs.

:\

[EESDL]

All depends on timing.
A long PVR date may give time for MOD's admin to catch up but a 6-monther post xmas, taking in April tax year etc, can leave them with ONE day to go before this little inmate escapes without a pay reduction..................

[Jackonicko]

I don't know what NGR is, but in the case of PVR applicants, maybe reducing their flying pay allows the beancounters to give more from the finite pot to those who have the loyalty and integrity to fulfill the term of service to which they signed up? In this day and age, with overstretch and an extraordinarily high f*ck factor I can find little to argue with if those who have the integrity to stay until their option are treated better than those rushing to desert the sinking ship.

From before you go to OASC you know what length of service is expected of you - if you can't take a joke then don't join.

[Scale 21]

NGR = Notice of General Release. That bit that says we are entitled to leave early should we choose to (18 mth notice).

Ship may well be sinking- where is the best place to be; head above water with enough youth left to get a job, or a drowned (forgotten) relic who was too scared to go?

Please don't give me stick because I want to make a personnal choice, and disagree with this rule. No other employer in the UK (nay, Europe?) would cut your earnings for exercising our freedom of choice. The reason I joined the RAF was to protect this freedom of choice.

Please don't offend me anymore by replying if you have nothing constuctive for me and my colleagues.

[C130 Techie]

Scale 21

No practical help to offer but I agree that the situation is unfair and I wish you well in your efforts.

Jackonicko

It has absolutely nothing to do with loyalty and integrity. It is to do with a legitimate "NOTICE" option in our terms of engagement.

In my case once I had completed 22 years to pension I signed on to age 47 then age 55 with this option as standard. I am currently 45 with no plans to leave but would feel completely comfortable taking the option if my circumstances change. That means I have now completed almost 28 years LOYAL service.

Suggest perhaps you research your facts before you make deeply insulting posts.

[EESDL]

I'm surprised Jacko, for sometimes you have been well informed but, alas, today you've proved to be a bit of a 'spotter'.
:sad:

[WorkingHard]

In my day FP was an ADDITIONAL emolument for those who actually flew aircraft. One had to do so many hours etc. to retain rights to FP. Now if you are leaving the service and are no longer flying why should FP continue to be paid? Not a bait, just a straight question!

[Pontius Navigator]

Jackinoko:

"allows the beancounters to give more from the finite pot to those who have the loyalty and integrity to fulfill the term of service to which they signed up?"

B*ll*cks.

It may have been true a few years ago when service and defence was everything. Now even the Gp Capt at OASC says to look after yourself as no one else will.

There are too many 37.5 hours per week people out there (and less) than blue suits. The service ethos is dying fast if not already dead. Only when it is all uniforms is there a chance of true espirit de corps.

[Jackonicko]

No offence meant. As I said, I didn't know what NGR meant.

From what you say it seems to differ from PVR in that it's a legitimate 'planned for' 'option' whereas PVR could be seen as a deliberate and self interested (if agreed) breach of contract, especially if exercised before the option point agreed to at the start of one's commissioned career. It would seem reasonable that the PVR applicant should be removed from flying duties (if that were convenient to the service) and thereby to lose entitlement to flying pay, whereas the NGR applicant should perhaps be treated with more consideration, if they are merely exercising what is, in effect, a predictable and previously agreed option to leave. If that is an accurate description of NGR, then removing flying pay does seem harsh.

I appreciate that loyalty has to be a two-way process, and that in recent years it has not been. The point remains, however, that the pot is decidedly finite, and to reward those who (for entirely selfish reasons) have decided to leave before the point originally agreed to (eg PVRs, not NGRs), at the expense of those who stay, seems unfair, and a waste of taxpayers' money.

I would stress that my own very limited knowledge of the PVR process comes primarily from another era, and that when individuals are encouraged to leave early by the service, then the loyalty point naturally does not apply.

The real answer, of course, would be to fund the services properly, to treat servicemen decently, and if money is that tight then perhaps to award flying pay only to those in legitimate flying posts, or in posts where recent flying currency is deemed to be required, and not to those who have voluntarily left flying posts, nor to senior officers whose entitlement to flying pay may be more shaky.

[Hueymeister]

And then watch the flood gates open......the exodus would shock Herod!

[Chox Away]

S21

Have heard stories reference the Airborne Techs on the Mushroom Farm. Some of those guys have PVR'd in the past and when told that their FP would halve, informed PSF to keep the other half as well and promptly withdrew themselves from flying duties. Apparently, they could do this, as for those guys, flying duties was and still is on a volunteer basis. They just withdrew their services.

As I understand it, due to the lack of (full) crews being available for ops if this was to happen, I think PSF relented and paid them till the end.

[EESDL]

Working Hard
Part of the point is that the subject officer does not stop flying because he has PVR'd. His primary role is still the same so why should his FP be abated?

Now, if the officer decided to become a burden upon his colleagues and shirk his fair share then, yes, a reduction in pay would be justified.

[D-IFF_ident]

I think you might have more luck with this one than the 'flying pay and pensions' debate.

Try the Employment Rights Act 1996:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1996/1996018.htm

Maybe consider suing for constructive dismissal?

If the employer breaches the contract the employee has various options:

Where the imposed change involves a significant change to the contract, eg a reduction in pay, an employer may be acting in fundamental breach of the contract. In these circumstances the employee could choose to resign and claim constructive dismissal:

This is where the employer's conduct can be regarded as a substantial breach of the employment contract, indicating that he or she intends no longer to be bound by the contract. In these circumstances the employee is entitled to terminate their employment without giving notice. In any tribunal claim of constructive dismissal the employee must show that the employer's action amounted to a fundamental breach of contract.


Good Luck!

[DP Harvey]

OK, playing the Devil's advocate here. We have been told many times in debates about FP that it is additional pay and is used as a method to enhance recruitment and retention of aircrew. Now, for whatever reason, it hasn't worked when an individual NGR/PVRs. It could be argued that you earn it by commitment, rather than flying.

I didn't relish writing that, but I do believe that it reflects policy

Ducks for cover......

[flyboy007]

Jacko: Please tell me you are not the prat that you have come across as. Only those that stay are loyal and have integrity??????? It is exactly this attitude which will make sure that I will PVR as soon as I am ready.
Rest assured that when that day comes, and I am sitting there in the cruise, on my way to New York or Waikiki, and trying to figure out just how to spend my money with only 15 days off per month, I will spare a thought for those of you who have integrity, and are blindly loyal.
In the mean time, I will answer the phone every time it rings to screw up another weekend or cancel my leave, and I'll do my job to the best of my ability without fail, with or without the required support or equipment to do the job properly. Unfortunately, those of you who believe the way you appear to believe, are the reason that those of us who "lack integrity and loyalty", leave.

Ciao

[Scale 21]

Loads of good stuff there, thanks to all. D-IFF, will check it out! Thinking along lines of 'unlawful deduction from wages' too...

Undersecretary for defence told me I gotta do the same as the next middle rate knocker- but for less pay. AP3392 says that FP 'forms part of earnings of aircrew'. If this notice FP cut nonsense isn't cutting your pay, what is?

Middle & higher rate are earned through time served. I haven't completed any less service or know less because I want to leave- no other employer cuts pay on notice, why should ours?

I fulfilled my childhood ambition by suceeding as RAF aircrew; my priorities have changed so I've made a decision to leave, why should I be penalised by having my pay cut?

Keep replying folks, ask your mates and find out for us if anyone else has beaten the pen pushers at city hall!!

[jindabyne]

Any old farts out there find all of this a bit sad? We whinged just as much - but with much less pretention (they won't know what I mean).

[P-T-Gamekeeper]

Jackonicko

We show loyalty and integrity by doing our job to the best of our abilities until the day we leave. We work hard, support our mates and do our share of the sh** jobs.

A PVR is a contractual giving of notice. Why is this disloyal?

The RAF is showing far more than disoyalty by making compulsory redundancies at present.

The military has been made into a job like any other. Saying that you signed up for 16 years at the ripe old age of 17, so you should have to lump it is a bit out of touch these days, I believe.

We are not the same as when we joined, the RAF is not the same as when we joined, and the allowances, respect and way of life are definately not the same as when we joined.

[BEagle]

".......the RAF is not the same as when we joined, and the allowances, respect and way of life are definitely not the same as when we joined."

Precisely. Given my time again, I would gladly join the RAF I joined in 1968 - but wild horses wouldn't drag me to join the pale imitation of its former self which is the RAF of today.

Not just a bleat from an old fart; obviously there has to be change and for the first 32 years of my service such changes were generally acceptable. But then things became simply intolerable; everything we'd held dear in virtually all areas of the Service was hacked around and meddled with by incompetent power wielding idiots (most of whom have now left as Gp Capts or Air Cdres on redundancy with nice little earners) and sqn lifestyle plummeted further and further downwards.

Today's RAF is about 1/3 the size it was when I joined and something like 40 aerodromes where we flew then are no longer available. And that's just in the UK. When I joined, C-130 was a new toy, as was Nimrod. Not to mention Harrier, Jaguar and Phantom. Whereas today most of the large aircraft fleet is well past its sell-by date but in ever increasing demand in OOA Ops. The only bright star is TypHoon and it's going to be nearly another decade before FSTA, A400M and MRA4 are established.

In 1968 we were strong in all areas; even our transport aircraft were on a par with those used by the airlines. But then the Brittanias and Belfasts were thrown away.....and nowadays our AT/AAR aircraft are years out of date and desperately inferior to anything operated by the airlines. So is it any wonder that people are leaving for pastures new to fly aircraft which are only 5 years old instead of nearly 40?

Compare a recruiting glossy from 1965 with one from 2005 and you'll see what I mean......

[giveitsome]

S21

If the ship is sinking and mate it is, staying put or hoping it gets better is as useful as re-arranging the deck chairs on the titanic.

Good for you for exploring your options.

The big problem for middle level folks today is not $$$$$, or conditions of service (although we are already bak to the bone) its lack of leadership.

As the saying goes, the COMD of yesterday put his arse on the line for his boys, the COMD of today puts his boys on the line for his arse.
Didn't see much that inspired me towards the latter part of my career and hence took the leap of faith. Happy days so far!!!!

GIS


:ok:

[Ali Barber]

What would happen to someone on the PA scheme?

[D-IFF_ident]

Sorry to whinge about those who are whinging about those whom they perceive as whinging, but....

How about constructive answers to the question asked, rather than opinions about who has the biggest knob? Mine's tiny, I can tell you, but at least I tried to look-up an answer for a fellow airman.

[Pontius Navigator]

One advantage of old fart's is that we can see what's round the corner as we round the block a second time. "15 days leave a month"

40 years ago we had a brilliant leave allowance - 42 days and public holidays with travelling time depending on train journey times. Airmen had slightly less, 30 days I think.

Many civilain companies revelled in 2 weeks holidays - 10 days!

Over time the length of civilian holidays has increased but service leave is stuck at 6 weeks (30 working days) plus PH for everyone.

Then a number of years ago a bleat was made to the AFPRB about leave. Their response was that leave was a service issue under the control of the services. If they wanted to allow more then they could.

Some years later, right in the middle of GW I UK based AF were given a 3 week Christmas stand-down for winnng the cold war.

Public holidays crept with midday standowns and return to duty. By the back door our leaves crept up.

Then, a year or so back, at gp capt admin level, it was alleged that these extra half-days were fraud and to be stopped forthwith.

Now it would be nice to be given an official 5 days extra leave but of course that would reduce the effective strength of the AF on duty by 2%. Already the reduced numbers cannot man all the posts - an extra 2% on leave would merely point up the criticallity of manning already.

To return to the PVR case, how would the civilian world react if notice periods were extended to month and years and not days!

[tarbaby]

Nothing is new. The timescale and names have been changed. The conditions are the same - ASOT aircraft do not take-off in daylight, the tasking was more than crews and aircraft available. 6 days of up to 19hrs crew duty before a day off. The self serving senior staff have changed their names. Can remember a finger pointing session with Wg Cdr where I told him there were people who had up to 8 days a month off. He didn't believe me. Mentioned the word "civilians" and he said, "They are different!"
My children understood I was the stranger who appeared so often, again to disappear within a couple of days. Even had a 1/2 hour call-out for a 6 day route 'cos one member of a crew would have got back too late to attend a Command Fishing meeting.
I look at your complaints, my heart goes out to you, but I say, "What's new!" I didn't PVR (tried to, another story) but no way was I going to extend.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Jacko,

I hate to disagree with you old man, but I really must on this point of loyalty, and fulfilling your terms of service.

I would humbly suggest that, if the RAF didn't keep changing its own terms of service, there would still be a great many of us still in.

When I joined, I had 4 warrants and God knows what else Blah!! You would have been the same, so why do you feel it unfair when an individual decides to give notice and leave, especially as his terms of service will have been seriously degraded??

Come on Jacko, you are well respected on this forum, but suggesting that someone is disloyal because he gives notice to leave is a little unfair I would suggest

Kind regards
TSM

[Jackonicko]

PT Gamekeeper correctly surmised that I am an old git, and that I am out of touch. Had I joined, my own 38/16 point would have passed before the Millenium. I could have fitted two short service commissions in back-to-back. Few of my immediate contemporaries are still in.

I have huge sympathy with the thought that:

"Saying that you signed up for 16 years at the ripe old age of 17, so you should have to lump it is a bit out of touch these days, I believe."

In my day people signed up for 16 with an option to leave after 12 (the 12 with an option after eight was almost unknown for aircrew). It was stressed that this was a firm commitment on your part, and that it was part of the price you paid for 'the best job in the world' and £2m worth of flying training. It was possible to PVR if you'd amortised your training costs, but it was widely regarded as being infra dig to PVR - since 12 years service seemed to be a reasonable expectation of 'return of service' after all the training. Anecdotally it seemed that most of those who PVRd were immediately taken off flying (and assigned to ****ty jobs) and this was widely viewed as being fair enough. There was a widely held (if largely unspoken) view that those who PVRd did so because they couldn't hack it, didn't fit in, or were self interested chancers obsessed with making more money by flying for the airlines, and that they were leaving their mates in the lurch. This was probably almost as unfair then as it would be today. But I don't think depriving such folk of some of their FP would have raised many eyebrows back then, and that's when my outdated attitudes were formed.

But perhaps the RAF then was more entitled to call upon people's loyalty, since it was more loyal to its own people. I take my honourable Swinging chum's comments to heart on this issue, and will henceforth shut my cakehole on this!

I apologise to anyone I've offended. I'm an ageing civvy journo and I can see that I am out of touch on this one.

[BEagle]

Well, that's probably saved you from having a large garden gnome inserted where the sun doesn't shine, Jacko....:p

I PVR'd after 31 years; the sticks had outweighed the carrots just once too often.

[Jackonicko]

If you PVR AFTER completing 12 years (let alone after passing your 38/16) I don't think anyone could ever have criticised. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Jacko,
no offence taken old boy, and I wouldn't say your out of touch either.
Like BEagle, I PVRd after 32 years for pretty much the same reasons. My biggest gripe however was that my Stn Cdr and Sqn cdr were no longer in charge and running my sqn when it came to deciding who went to war. No, it was a decision made by the Blunties, Rocks, PTIs and et al and them deciding who was most current in the 'Niff-Naff Stats' department. Sadly, neither of my 2 bosses were prepared to stand up to them and tell them to 'sod off and get a life'
Ah, how sad, but thats another story.

Kind regards to all
TSM

[Ali Barber]

The RAF has very kindly decided to cut all our pay out here by one band, despite the bill being picked up by the host nation and not the RAF, and difficulties in finding volunteers to come here. I think one of the "conditions of service" is that the "conditions of service" are allowed to be changed at any time!

[1.3VStall]

BEagle,

I, too, joined in 1968 - although my first three years "in unifom" were as an APO on a UAS.

We certainly had a lot of airfields at home and abroad and, as you point out, we had a lot of up-to-date kit, which was operated and supported by people in blue suits, not retired old farts and civilians.

I served for over 27 years before I just had to quit. The best decision I ever made was to join the RAF and my second best decision was to leave.

Sure, there were always bu**eration factors, but I seem to remember that people genarally took it all in good spirit because loyalty was then a two-way street.

I feel genuinely sorry for some of the guys posting on this thread today. While all I ever knew in my time in the Service was cutbacks and financial squeezes, it is clear that it has now been cut to a level way below the sensible. Worse still, it seems that the RAF is being run by a bunch of self-seeking sycophants who are incapable of standing up to the utter bo**ocks that emerges from the MoD and the Treasury. "Testicularly challenged" is, I believe, a phrase that you so aptly used in the past.

The terminal rot started to set in with the "New Management Strategy" about 1990. We replaced Commanders with Executives and Directors. Station Commanders became Budget Holders and Commands became Agencies. Leadership was replaced by management and, for pities sake, "investing in people" appeared on the scene! While all this nonsense was being generated (and being enthusiastically embraced by their Airships) the size, shape, equipment, infrastructure and morale of the RAF went into an irreversible decline.

And what about reducing the income of people who have decided to leave after loyal service? Well this provides a graphic illustration of the miserable and misguided outlook of the current "management". In relation to the overall Defence budget how much does it save? A drop in the ocean. What does it achieve? It simply serves to further alienate people who have (in all probability reluctantly) decided to pursue a change of career.

[Scale 21]

Crikey! More than what I hoped for and an amazing response! Totally agree about the lack of carrots now...

Many of my pilot colleagues are starting to squint toward the horizon searching for another carrot. The latest is a promise of CFS Tucano posts, to be spoofed at the last signature on your clearing chit to end up UASing or JEFTing @ RAFC. Not promised or expected, except when the execs say 'oh yeah, they've done THAT before...'

Sorry for banging on, but my original question was to get names of like minded persons who fought this thing and won. Anybody out there got any suggestions or memories please?

Ali Baber- my missus spotted you were in Oman before she read your location. Reckons the Current Bun might wanna hear about that- speaking of which, would that be considered treacherous to expose this abhorrent, spiteful and mean rule (one of many?) to the press...

...sorry, that spanner was mine!!!

[c130jbloke]

S21

Good on you mate !!!

I am currently in the same position and trying to track down a QR that relates to pre / post 1989 service regarding FP. Also, have you considered trying to pin your DO @ PMA down as to exactly how much notice you have to give ?

The whole manning plot is usually running on a knife edge, so you could try it, but also consider that the resettlement process is usually planned for an 18-24 mth period, so whatever you do:

a. Good luck
b. Plan and plan again

I am going to visit P2 next week on this subject, I will let you know if I get anywhere.


Jacko,

Usually I am impressed with your posts....

[Scale 21]

c130jbloke...

try AP3392 leaflet 1904.

'Welsh' or 'colour coded Adj' will know where to find it

That's where I got mine from...;)

Scale 21 (cup of tea with that..?)

[The Rocket]

Totally agree about the lack of carrots now...


Oh, I find that there are plenty of carrots on sticks around.

Except that now, they tend to shove the carrot up your ar$e, and hit you over the head with the stick.

[c130jbloke]

S21,

Noted, thanks. Will get back to this next week when I RTB.

C130JB

[Monty77]

Scale 21

I wouldn't hold out any hopes for a Tucano slot over the next couple of years.

I won't put numbers to it, but with the demise of the jag fleet, there's little call for fast-jet mates at the moment. Therefore no call for instructors to train them.

Obviously in 2009 there'll be a huge panic followed by large ramp-up of the training system. Again.

Always remember that the Airships would never vote for a reduction in their train-sets. Nor would the Admirals or the Generals. It's down to the politicians.

Ultimately, the politicians order the defence cuts, then the inter-service rat-fighting commences. Last standing wins.

What did it for me was when AOC STC (Support Command) started calling himself 'Chief Executive of the Training Group Agency'.

This was in the mid-90s. How we all laughed.

I then took it upon myself to be a formation 'manager', with no.s 2,3, and 4 being 'formation outcome executives'. It was all about 'Putting People First'.

Debriefs were a classic. Customer expectations (sudden death) not being met. Outsourcing facilitation compromise (ATC out to lunch), Dealing with issues (Diversion cos we'd f*cked it and ran out of petrol). All this and much, much more.

Happy Days

[Scale 21]

Having met my MP at the weekend, he wasn't confident as to my plight, saying that if others had fought and won, it's their names we need to have a case...

On another note, me and my missus highlighted how moral is low, people are reaching BNE (bollocks never exceed!) and are starting to, or already have, walked. He said 'that's what the government wants so it doesn't have to make any more cuts to defence'.

He's on the opposition, but being in the HofP, he no doubt sees and hears what is going on. You heard it hear first (maybe), the government wants you to leave...

However, I shall still try to chase this issue. If anyone can help with people, places and times, please send them on.

[Charlie Luncher]

Little Dudes

It all is determined by the terms of service - not contract you signed up to. For scumbags it all goes back to pre 89 terms of service, for the bluebloods it is the same not sure what the cut off date is though?
I got mine back after SAC Fwit was pointed out the errors of his ways, it took 1 week for the flying pay to be cut and 3 months to be returned, funny that :* . If you have problems see your Chief Clerk, not for info, but for access to the paperwork as he was just the SAC's paternal influence:ugh: .
Good luck with all your frustration and getting your Mp out of the trough.
Jacko I rate your comments about your length of service as a Hack right up there with the civil serpants who reckon they hold the equivalent rank of whatever:8 - they never seem to say SAC:mad:
Charlie sends:*