Why pay $75,000?

[paul56]

Hey guys,

Having compared the costs of numerous flying schools on the east coast over the past couple of years it seems that the approximate cost of getting all the training you need -

CPL
ME - IR
ATPL"s

- is generally around $60,000...give or take 5 grand. There are however a small number of schools that work out as costing a significant amount more. Schools like GFS and Bae Systems in Adelaide look to be closer to $75,000.

So my question is...does this extra money just account for the fact you're flying newer planes? Would it be realistic to expect that the above named organisations would have the very best instructors out there as opposed to the stock standard 20 year old whose fresh off the instructor rating course??? I presume there is a lot of value in an experienced instructor, and as such would perhaps be prepared to find the extra money in the hope of higher quality training.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Paul

[ROCKSTEADY]

Sorry buddy,

Dont have that info for ya. But if your looking for advice, I think anyone thats willing to outlay $70,000 without the guarantee of a job in this day and age has either:

1. Not really researched the industry properly, or is choosing to ignore it completely...Or,

2. Is filthy rich.

Why bother, its not worth it anymore, you'll be lucky to find a job that pays more than that these days after about four years of hard work, then you’ll have to fork out another 30 g's just to get it. Not to mention, if there is another Airborne Disease Outbreak, Tsunami, War or any other downturn that will affect this highly volatile industry, you can push your goal posts back another 5 years.

Oh and by the way the price of petrol is going, and the rampage CASA is on, in three years, you can forget about flying piston twins cause there will be very very few left in this country!!!



I say, start a business with that money mate!!!!!!!!!

Work for yourself, when you want how you want and earn a **** load more!!!!!!!!!!!! You can always fly on the side to kill those burning desires.

Otherwise if you wanna stick it out and ignore my advice, don’t turn into a whinging bitch and don’t let the alcohol turn you into a brawling banana bashing gin jockey.


Have you ever thought about becoming a fighter pilot??

If the Airforce wont accept you, then maybe Qantas will!!!!
:E

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Paul56:

If flying is what you really want to do then go for it.

You can spend similar on HECS and still have no guarantee of an outcome.

Either 60K-75K on flying or the same on a uni degree - the result is the same. You will have a fresh qualification that allows you to start what is essentially an apprenticeship to a career.

What you have to ensure is that you don't fall into the trap that a lot of newbie CPLs do and hang around the big smoke and whinge all day that they can't get a start.

If you do decide to go ahead and achieve your 'licence to learn', then get out there and grab your new career with both hands.

good luck.

[speedbird23]

In short, When you go for a job, no one will care where you learnt to fly or who you instructor was. As long as you have the appropriate licences and hours, you will get the job.
Most 20y.o instructors are arses who couldn`t be bothered leaving the big city or their parents nest to go and work in the real world. They know nothing about charter or what an employer wants to really see. But they will get you your licence and ratings. The extra money is not worth anything, except to the flying school.

[Chris Higgins]

I still remember in 1983 at fifteen, walking on to Port Macquarie Airport and doing an introduction flight. I asked about jobs and the instructor laughed, and told me that he was told he'd never find a job, yet had never been unemployed. He admitted the starting pay was terrible, but he was happy anyway. He left G/A and went to the Air Force to fly Hercs, I think he ended up at Cathay.

[ROCKSTEADY]

RFG you must be an Instructor or have close ties to the Instructing Industry??

I dont agree with you. I hardly think that there would be many degrees worth 75,000 g's at uni. And even if there was, like you said its on 'HECS', meaning that you dont pay it off until you start earning the money. Unlike aviation. You will be stuck paying off $60,000- $75,000 for the first 7 years regardless. If your talking Law, or Doctor, of course its expensive. But there is more opportunities, the industry is more stable and you can still have a life at least, living at home!! You dont have to buy endorsements and earn below the poverty line. And if you dont practice law for 2 to 3 years, id imagine that you could jump straight back into it, without having to pay more money for renewals and refresher flights and all the bull**** associated costs that go with being out of flying for an extended period of time!!

Just a thought or two anyways......................!!

[bushy]

Have a look at the GA pilot's award, and stop whinging about "living below the poverty line" If you choose to do that, then blame yourself.

[KISS]

The whole problem with GA is that it is too cheap to fly.

Up the prices and it solves most problems in one hit. ie Reducing the over supply of pilots.

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Rocksteady:

I hold an Instructor Rating and all the other ticks in the box but currently don't instruct.

I have aviation business interests, in a few different areas (and before you ask, no lotto or inheritance here either).

However, 20+ years ago, I started as a self-funded student. i.e., I earnt money and spent it every weekend. No parents or parents houses to live in etc.

No different to most/many other Pilots...........

(and those Pilots lucky enough to have someone else pay - good luck to you!).

A quick perusal of several university web sites does in fact indicate professional degrees costing $60K+ before completion.

Whether HECS is used, a student loan or pay-as-you-go. The money comes from somewhere. Even if HECs was available for aviation (as it was/is in NZ), it still has to be paid off one day.

A newbie Lawyer or Doctor does not walk straight into a litgation firm chasing ambulances or into a cosmetic surgery making boobies - they start at the bottom, learning their trade as an 'apprentice'.

And as you have no doubt discovered, nor do newbie CPLs walk into a good job.

As for paying for 'endorsements':

Ask any Lawyer, Doctor or Accountant etc. how many courses, lectures and post-grad. 'endorsements' they fork out for as they move in their career.

EVERY Professional has to fork out for 'endorsements' and 'currency'.

Granted, Aviation is by no means easy, however, nothing is easy. Every successful professional worked hard to get where they are.

And the successful Pilots, well they got off their Asses and chased opportunities....

[Condensation]

Well said Rich-Fine-Green!!

[Left Wing]

speedbird23,
Finally the truth for years the students have been made to belive "this" flt school will get you a great job etc etc.

The Airlines recruitment /training manager dont care if your mum gave you flying lessons as long as you can do a great sim check know your tech quiz, and are cheerful person.

End of story.

[Arm out the window]

Rocksteady, to put it into perspective, how much will the average young bloke go into hock for to pay for a flash car or ute these days? A heap of cash they don't really have.
That's basically giving money away, but it's acceptable because it's just what everyone does.
Paying for a qualification is investing in your future, and if you really want to fly for a living, it's what you have to do, if you don't happen to be fortunate enough to get someone to pay you while you learn (I was lucky enough to get into the RAAF - if I hadn't, I would certainly have done whatever else I had to do to get a flying job).

[*Lancer*]

RFG,

The comparisson isn't that black and white. Undergrad degrees (which include law and medicine) don't cost anywhere close to the figures you're talking about. International students might pay close to that, but the courses are still very heavily subsidised for Aussies irrespective of HECS. The most expensive degrees are postgrad ones such as an MBA, which cost about 40k from the better Unis.

Further to that, a medicine degree guarantees you a job. There are others that do too (teaching for example). First year doctors earn mid-40k depending which hospital you work at. Furthermore, if you're at a teaching hospital (all the big ones are), the extra training is provided as part of your contract. The alternative is to work at a private hospital with much better pay and conditions, but without the career progression. Incidently, 'apprentice' doctors generally constitute the bulk of MD staff in Accident-and-Emergency.

The only thing that balances private medicine or law practice against aviation is the rocketing insurance costs. But that doesn't apply to those professionals until later in their careers...

[Rich-Fine-Green]

*Lancer*
The way the current fees have risen, and with future rises as well - A med student starting next year, and studing 4-5 years will indeed spend that amount.

In addition, an Australian who wishes to take up a 'fee paying place' will be slugged $30K per year for a Vet science undergrad degree. Thats $120+K!. A 'fee paying' arts student will pay $15K p.a.! (Uni of Sydney web site)

Actually *Lancer*, I don't give a toss if some degrees are cheaper than flying or if Doctors have a better chance at securing a job - the underlying message is that success does not come easy for anyone regardless of profession.

BTW: A first year doctor works his or her arse off to even get a place in an undergrad course, will then study like hell to keep up and then be 'lucky' enough to walk into a job at an inner city hospital - working night shift 70-80 hours per week for 40K pa.

I have worked with and employed some real hardworking Pilots over the years (and some lazy ones!) but none, including myself have ever worked 70-80 hours per week.

Instead of BS about different professions - How about some comments now to Paul56 and his questions.......

[Centaurus]

Don't be fooled by the look of the instructors. Whether it is a big expensive school or a normal common or garden type flying school, you will probably be given a new or inexperienced instructor for early training up to 100 hours. That doesn't necesarily mean they are poor instructors(financially, maybe) - simply inexperienced. That alone will cost you more dollars as they are limited before sending you solo.

[franksnbeans]

Applying my twisted logic to the situation, when looking for a flying school, I would think about what you want to do as a possible first job for two reasons. The first has to do with the planes that you would fly in that job, and the second to do with how much you will earn (and how long it will take to find work!).

Different schools use different planes. Some of the other more experienced guys here could be of more help on this matter, but if you go "up north" as they say, your first job is likely to be in a single engine cessna. At the end of the day, a plane is a plane, and experienced gained is always benificial. But if I were hiring someone to fly a cessna and had to decide between Mr A, who had most of their time in a warrior, or Mr B, who had most of his time in a cessna... All other things being equal, I'd probably go for the cessna guy.


The second reason is located herein... Just to echo the sentiments made by the many above, flying will cost you a bundle - no matter where you go. If you pay as you go (ie: no loan), when you finish your training, you have no debt over your head, so you are free to go where the work is, without a care in the world about earning money whilst you look. If you have to service a loan, you would be limited in how far away from dosh you could travel.

Having said that, I would have no problems borrowing money for training if I had a garentee of work at the end.

And like some of the guys (and girls) before me, I worked 3 jobs to fund it, so I didn't have a debt. But it doesn't matter where the money comes from. If you appreciate any help that you get (parents), most people will have no problems whatsoever. By this I mean don't buggar around and be slack. Have a good attitude, believe in yourself and you will do fine.
rgds

[dude65]

Franksnbeans is pretty close to the money here.

110 plus hours in a C172 with 10-15 in a C182 will make you more attractive to most small GA operators. It's all about time on type. If you're strutting around with 150 hours on a Tobago, nobody will give a toss. Nice aircraft, but nobody 's flying the things in the real world.

As far as cost goes, the last time I checked, the aviation degrees were 15K pa. Multiply this by 3 then add the cost of the actual flying. Your 75K is now looking pretty cheap.

If you want to be a pilot, go for it. Just make sure you do plenty of research,ask the hard questions and don't fall for any marketing BS.

[Chadzat]

With HECS I will be paying 15k for the WHOLE course, not per annum. So I am budgeting on 15K there plus about 50K to get all licences up to MECIR.

[FlightIdle]

Although this forum has gone quiet here is my 2 cents worth.

My advice would be not to take out a loan to go flying. If you decide to bail because you realise that nothing is guarranteed in the aviation industry, then you have not got the obvious $$$$ + interest hanging over your head. You will have plenty of opportunity to take a loan when an operator promises you work if you pay for an endorsement or if you have to have a particular type on your licence to get a look in. Potential employers may ask you how you got the money to learn to fly, and having worked 2 or 3 jobs to get it, is looked upon favourably....as is a degree of some sort. Bare in mind that the dollar figure quoted by most flying schools is based on the minimum requirements for the licence.

[RYAN TCAD]

Rich-Fine-Green, the pilots you probably 'employed', were working between 35-40 hrs per week (NOT FLYING TIME) probably washing a/c and sweeping hangar floors and being paid about $20,000 per year gross!

And thats if they were lucky to have a full-time gig!

Bottom line is, if someone wants to fly for the airlines be it regional or domestic / international, they have a slightly less than 5% chance of succeeding full stop.

One does have a far better chance of employment by way of completing a uni degree. It IS as simple as that.

Bo!

[wishtobflying]

For comparison, I just looked up the full fee-paying rate to do an Advanced Diploma of IT with CQU - $21,924.00!!!

[FlightIdle]

No only will a degree be an advantage in an interview for airlines/regionals or whatever, but its an excellent 'fall back' if your not in that minority who actually achieves that job flying.

Its also about being in the right place at the right time.

Rich-and-fine.. it goes without saying that success is difficult to come by, and hard work to reach a chosen profession is a given (for all but a few).

[flyby_kiwi]

If I had my time again id look more into ATC.

The money is far better....
Youll work a regular roster.....
Be home each night.....
You'll be sitting in a nice warm tower rather than sitting in a 20year old a/c being shaken thru cb's in the middle of the night...
If your a tower controller youll prob. just work regular hours, if your at a center youll just earn even more $$$....
Your training will be over in a year with a job at the end of it.....
You wont be as susceptable to industry reccesions....

Now ill admit there are probably down sides but have a look at the ATC forum and see how many of them are complaining about lack of jobs, thier employer, thier pay etc.

I took the flying route and am happy I did but to be honest if I knew what REALLY was involved im not sure id have gone thru with it all that time ago.

If your determined to fly try and go at it without a loan, when have a 200hr CV in a pile of twelve a little work experience will go along way, particuarly if its in a Customer Service or Industry related job (ie check-in staff, airline op's, freight fowarding etc)

[WaldoPepper]

Having worked at BAE I know they charge a lot of money for their course. I believe the reason is partly that the majority of flying training that goes on there is for airline cadets and the course is structured as such. The accommodation is provided as well as meals etc and the syllabus is generally longer and may even be quite different to the standard :

1. effects of controls
2. straight and level
3. climbing etc

As the flying syllabus is longer it'll cost more. The standard of instructors is good, but as in all schools they won't all be good. I learnt at a flying school west of Sydney and thought that they were some of the best i've seen, still to this day.

The point I guess i'm trying to make is that these schools are geared toward what the airline wants a pilot to be taught during training. This would be OK if you were to go straight into an airline or if you're a cadet.

Sadly, this isn't the case and so your first job you get, as said in another post, will be with an operator who probably doesn't care where you did your training. Are you safe? have you got the ratings etc is all they'll care about.

I say go for it if you really want it. Most CPL holders give up in the first year because they can't find work. It's the ones who stick with it (however you can ) that make it in the end.

Good luck

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Ryan TCAD:

EVERY successful Pilot I know did in fact wash planes and sweep hangars after their days work because they had pride - not because they were forced.

5% success rate?.

I guess you have the exact fugures huh?.

I don't know the percentage either - but those Pilots who DO put in an effort and WORK hard towards their goals have a higher than 5% success rate.

Those I know that put in the hard yards are ALL working full-time and getting paid the right $$. I guess that's a bit better than 5% huh?.

A person comtemplating a CPL does not have a gun to their head. They can choose anything worthwhile within their means both mentally and financially.

I stand by what I wrote before:

ANY profession requires hard work and dedication to succeed.

[Boney]

I remember many moons ago on day 1 of Comm theory at TAFE the dude running it said ...

"Out of the 16 of you, 2 will make it to a major Airline, 2 will make it to a Regional and 2 of you will be stuck in GA the rest of your life. The rest of you will never find that first job or after a year or two in GA, will give it away and do something else".

Pretty accurate stats, me thinks.

[paul56]

Well Boney with an instructor as "good" :rolleyes: as that....I'm suprised he expected any of you to find jobs at all!!!

[Roger Standby]

I took the line that Flyby_Kiwi suggested. I realized that I was too old, too poor and too lazy to do the hard yards to make it as an ATPL. I've got my PPL, love to fly and by becoming an ATC now have the time and a bit of cash (I otherwise wouldn't have had) to fly recreationally. I want to ultimately get my low level and aero endorsements and have some fun. I also feared that if my passion was my job, then it may eventually just be my job.

Don't get me wrong, I admire those of you that grabbed it by the balls and ran with it, but I am happy with my lot.

By the way, if anyone is thinking that this could be for them, apply. AsA is desperate for controllers and they pay you to train (although not a hell of a lot).

R-S.