Advise For Students

[whatmoon]

MY BIGGEST PIECE OF ADVISE FOR STUDENTS OR NEW CPL PILOTS LOOKING FOR WORK IS 'DO THE BARE MINIMUM '. DONT FALL INTO THE TRAP OF SPENDING ALL OF YOUR HARD EARNED CASH ON CIR'S AND ME RATINGS AND THE LIKE. CAUSE THEY DONT MEAN S*#T WHEN IT COMES TIME TO LOOK FOR A JOB!

[Deepsea Racing Prawn]

You obviously feel very strongly about this. Could an Instructor Rating be included in this bare minimum?

[huntsman]

my tip for any prospective CPL's - before you start any training, talk to everyone you know (coz everyone knows a pilot) and see how many punters paid their money and never even got the 'first' job, leave alone a career.
then ask the ones that have a career and see what they tell you about this great industry.
i love the job, but think the industry stinks.

how many other careers that cost so much offer so little (financially) unless you make it to the big stuff.

lots of students and not many jobs. gets worse every year.

[Ash767]

Hi all

I agree with all above. If you want to go into flying well that is fine. HOWEVER,

1) Avoid if possible getting a loan ($)

2) Do the bare min (depending on circumstances)

3) As mentioned by Huntsman, talk with people about their experiences.

4) Be careful of flight schools offering you the world and those that have flashy brochures ( a bit like flashy finance brochures)

5) Have a "funk hole" i.e. if things do not go your way have a back up plan.

I pretty much followed all of the above except number 2 (I got everything). It did not work out for me so I am now doing finance at uni and enjoying it.

I certainly do not regret having a go at the flying, it just did not work out, so I moved on.

And before someone says it "no, I am not bitter"

Ash:ok:

[DeltaSix]

Whatmoon,

So, are you saying, go look for your first job without your MECIR ?

My first job required me to although I didnt use it at once.

I was required to fly twins one day and do an instrument approach on the same day after 6 months. I wouldn't have gotten the opportunity to bag that twin job if I didn't have it.


D6

[locusthunter]

Ash767,

A genuine congratulations! Studying Finance at Uni is one of the best things that you could do. You'll probably be a lot richer and happier than if you had have stayed in Aviation.

While some people argue "battle on and stay in the industry no matter what", I would actually argue differently, if things aren't working out, get out and do something else. I've seen too many people end up very bitter about it and missing the best years of their life trying to chase some non-existent job in some remote corner of the country.

I know that this is not the trendy thing to say but the fact is... luck does play a part. Some people get a good run in the industry and some don't. Some people get a good first or second job- others don't.

You've given some good advice there, I would amend and add to your 5 things:

1) Don't get a loan. Earn the money. Getting a loan is bad news- being in debt before you go into the industry is just plain stupid. Debt generally causes slavery in the world. Only ever use debt to invest. A CPL is not an investment, no matter what anyone says.

2) Do the bear minimums but if you can, use the hours to get some ratings as well. Keep in mind that the more you do while you are earning money in a real job, the less you will have to scrounge for once you are working in aviation.

3) Talk with people about their experiences- if you are in a capital city, go and make pilot friends at a country airport and talk with them about their experiences- milk all the contacts you can for all their worth and take heed of bad stories as well as good ones.

4) Be very wary of flashy brochures, but also realise sometimes that people who are putting enough $ into advertising have enough $ in the first place. Anything with a 747 of the like should be avoided.

5) Definately have back-up plan. In fact, have a back-up career or skill. Get yourself a decent job and some sort of qualification in something versatlie and movable. Do this before or while you are doing your training. It will make you a better person and will probably help your aviation job prospects.

6) If you haven't any, get some experience living in the country (i.e. at least a regional town) get some. Depending on your circumstances, it also may be cheaper to live there. Many people in the cities don't realise where they will have to live to get the jobs.

7) Learn how to approach and talk to people in the industry.

8) Leave any attitude you may have at home when you look for work. Be confident and diplomatic.

9) Realise that your paid flying work after CPL is being paid because you are making someone else (the operator) more money. Think about thier goals and what they want. Too many junior CPLs have their heads in the clouds only thinking about what they themselves want out of aviation.

10) Do all your theory. If you want to get an ATPL one day- start studying for it.

11) Most people are barracking for you in the industry- most people like to see fresh CPL holders get on and get hours- but always remember some people with more expreience in the industry have gone through hell to get the hours in their log books (treat them with care).

12) The industry can be hell. And you know what Winston Churchill said about hell..."if you are going through hell you better keep going."


Geeeeeeeeeezzzzz...... I should write a book.

Actually, I was going to write a book and then I thought no F:mad: it, I'll just buy one!

[Spotlight]

Well said Locusthunter! I hope things get better and better for you.

[Ultralights]

I love flying, always have, always will, but dont get into the industry for the financial rewards!

my tip, get your CPL, put the rest of your cash into buying/building your own aircraft, get a job that actually gives a financial reward, then fly for fun!

[pilotads]

bare minimum fair enough but what is it. at the moment for me i don't have to money for an instructor rating and to be frank i don't want one but it does open up a few doors i do have a mecir and even some multi crew time. so when does it become more of a let down than a door opener is what i'm getting at

P.S.anyone offering jobs leave me a message

[locusthunter]

Thanks spotlight... so do I... they can't get much worse...

:ugh:

[Disguise Delimit]

"Don't go for the flashy brochure" you say.

Well, would you go to a school that has a photocopied flyer, done on an old typewriter which punched a hole through the "o"s ? If they can't afford to advertise, they shouldn't be in the game. Can they afford to service their machines? Do they pay their instructors properly? Do they make the students pay for a cup of coffee? Do new CPLs hang around the place for no pay and fight over a positioning flight?

You get what you pay for in this game (except if you need CASA's services...):{

[Ash767]

locusthunter,

I agree with the things you have added. Particularly the ones about leave your attitude behind and learn how to approach people, well said.

Regards
Ash:ok:

[raafboy26]

locusthunter,
thanks for a great post, your insight is much appreciated.
rb26

[locusthunter]

Deguise delimit,
I take your point on brochures and agree with you to a certain extent. My advice is to be WARY of them. In this day and age of publishing it's pretty easy and realitively cheap to put together very good brochures. And just because someone has a good brochure, does not mean that they are servicing their machines properly or paying their instructors.

My advice would be to be WARY of advertising and marketing hype. Try to find out about the real product being offered. What is behind the product?
It's good to be excited about a new career, but it's also wise to take a step back and do some homework. Any old mug can put a flashy brochure together with a 747 on the front and write a few paragraphs about being a commercial pilot.

On the other hand, a poorly written brochure (particularly at a large school) is probably some indication of the care they take in other things (such as their students).

Another one to add (which I should have mentioned before):

13. Don't pay upfront. I'll say it again: In aviation DON'T PAY UPFRONT.


Even if it costs you more to pay as you go, do it that way. Consider that little extra cost insurance.

If something happens, something goes wrong- beyond your control - you will almost definately never get your money back.
Even if halfway through your training, some personal event or tragedy occurs, you may need that money.
Once paid - it's gone and you have no control over it, and at that point you can only hope that you get your flying done. I have seen it happen, and I have heard of people who have chased thier hard-earned cash through the courts to no avail. I have seen people's aviation dollars (and dreams) disappear into thin air.

On and personal level, I have had to go to considerable (unreasonable) lengths to chase wages along with other pilots that I have worked with.
There are plenty of good operators out there and some really great ones.

14. In the next life have filthy rich parents who will buy you your own airline.

[7gcbc]

Locust,

I think you are me.......... Great Advice , I just hope people take note.

well said.

7gcbc

[Downburst]

I agree with most. If you want a CPL or even an ATP later and work in GA then get you CPL the cheapest and easiest way. May be it's a good idea to get an instructor rating making it easier to get the first job.

Don't fall for the flashy advertisements showing B747 flight decks and fellows in uniform telling you "enrol with us and that seat in the B747 is yours". Don't fall for it, that's bull.... A CPL and a CIR (ME) will NOT put you in line for an airline job. Sorry. 3,000 hours and actually hoilding the ATP won't either. You have already adopted GA habits making unsuitable for making money for an airline using tools such as B747 or Airbus (even stated by QANTAS in aviation magazines several years ago).

If you want to be an airline pilot then get yourself a degree, either a BSc involving electronic engineering as well as transport management. There are aviation degrees offered; however, don't worry about the Australian Universities offering an aviation degree, they get you nowhere any more because they are crap.

For aspiring airline pilots you would be best off by learning to fly and then study aviation to the internationally recognized JAR-FCL competencies. Which Univeresities? Lund (Sweden with a branch in the USA) , Embry-Riddle in the USA, Cranfield University in Oxford (UK) etc. That's where international airlines send their cadets.

[Condensation]

I thought a degree didn't make any difference if someone had more hours than you :confused:

So from what I gather, having any sort of degree DOES help?

[404 Titan]

Downburst
If you want to be an airline pilot then get yourself a degree, either a BSc involving electronic engineering as well as transport management.
I’m sorry but I have to disagree with this statement because it is rubbish. Australian and most Asian carriers have not gone down the road of the US counterparts in requiring you to have a university degree. I remember similar statements being made 20 years ago that if you don’t have a degree your chances of getting into the airlines in the future will be bleak. If you have one it certainly isn’t a hindrance but doesn’t give you any more of a chance of getting into an airline than someone that doesn’t have one. All you require is a pass in year 12 maths, physics and English and the appropriate flying hours and qualifications. That’s what it was 20 years ago when I got into flying and that’s what it is today.
For aspiring airline pilots you would be best off by learning to fly and then study aviation to the internationally recognized JAR-FCL competencies.
Again rubbish. Airlines in this region want you to have an ICAO recognised licence. Whether you got this in Australia, New Zealand the US etc is irrelevant to them, as long it can be converted to the national equivalent. If you have studied at one of the Uni’s below is again irrelevant. What they want to see is that you meet their minimum requirements experience wise and hold the relevant licences. Some airlines in Aus may also require that you hold an Aus ATPL without exemptions.
Which Univeresities? Lund (Sweden with a branch in the USA) , Embry-Riddle in the USA, Cranfield University in Oxford (UK) etc. That's where international airlines send their cadets.
QF, SQ, CX and KA don't send their cadets there. Infact none of these airlines send any of their students to any university.

[cjam]

Phew!!!......I think Titan is the only one left on this site with any sense....listen to yourselves....I thought this was the Dununda section not the 'I'm a whinging Pom" section.
Need a degree???bollocks.
Too much bush time??? bollocks.
What you need is a good attitude and the ability to socialise and communicate with an ausi bush-man just as easily as a sydney businessman. Add to that the ability to keep your chin up and have fun for the few years that it takes to reach the airlines and your away.
Just remember....airline careers aren't supposed to be easy to get, they won't be handed to you on a plate like your game-boy or nintendo was. Maybe you just don't have the right skills for the market at the moment, maybe you do but you're lazy,maybe you should b#gga off to a community and wash the local 206 for three months and see if that helps.
PS.....I work full time at woolworths.

[mattyj]

..yes all very true, but a degree might teach whatmoon the correct spelling of advice

;)

[Vetical Limit]

One argument that everyone seems to forget when sledging the value of degrees...

We all know that QF, SQ, CX and KA don't 'require'a degree, only a pass in year 12 maths, english and physics (or equialent). The recrutiment info of QF also states that all that is required is a mere 500 hours in command to be employed.

How many pilots are getting employed with this bare minimum? Very few if any. But when it comes to education many seem to think that having the 'bare minimum' is fine and all that is necessary.

Just my 2 cents worth, but an aspiring professional pilot needs to look at the big picture of oppurtunities and resources available to them...

[A333]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you there. It's not a matter of having the bare minimum or not for education.

It is very different to bare minimum for hours. You say how many pilots are getting employed with the bare minimums (500 hrs for QF), yes not many BUT I'm asking you now, how many pilots are getting employed with 1500 hrs or more WITH the bare minimum for their education (just HSC)?

Why study for a degree if your goal is to become a pilot? Why waste 3 years studying for a degree that you don't need when you can use this time to look for a job or build hours?

This comparison is always used but it's nothing but the truth, if someone had a degree of some sort with 1000 hrs experience and another with no degree but 3000 hrs of experience, which one would the airline choose? Obviously the one with more FLYING experience.

A degree may give you something to fall back on but why waste time, money and effort if what you really want to do is fly? You'd be better off obtaining a degree after by distance education.

Just my 2cents worth :ok:

[Vetical Limit]

A333 you've raised some good points there and I see where your coming from. My original post was just giving some more perspective to the context of a degree.

I also have to disagree with some of what you have raised. If all you want to do is fly then I totally agree with you saying a degree is pointless. A degree will do nothing to help an aspiring commercial pilot land a first job or second job.

It is if and when this pilot is really seeking this airline job that I think a degree is of great benefit. Its a bit narrow minded to simply say that all an airline wants is someone with more flying experience than the next bloke. An airline in recruiting pilots is looking for more than simply a 'pilot', as you would know there are many facets to this job simply beyond flying an aeroplane. A degree may not teach you all this but it does demonstrate to an employer an ability to learn and apply ones self to a task.

I dont see it as 3 wasted years but 3 years of study incorporated life experience delivering often a more mature and well rounded individual.

Anyway, thats enough from me this topic has been done to death on these forums best just to form your own ideas from the dozens of opinions out there on this matter!

[404 Titan]

Vetical Limit

The stark reality is that most direct entry pilots in the company that I work for (CX), don’t have a degree. Criteria used predominantly for selection for interview is aviation background and experience. Education is looked at but as a screening devise only. As long as one has the minimum educational requirements, they pass this first screening process. Someone with a degree isn’t placed up on any pedestal. They simply pass the first screening process, just like someone with a pass in year 12 or equivalent. The Cadets though generally do and for some reason they predominantly seem to have engineering degrees of some persuasion or other. As my company completely pays for the cadets training, I can understand them wanting to see the cadet has a history of proven successful study habits. From discussions with my mates at QF and DJ most direct entry pilots there don’t seem to have degrees either. DJ doesn’t have cadets but QF does but I am unsure how they run their cadet program.

[Chadzat]

What type of degree are we talking about here people? A dedicated integrated Aviation degree or just some engineering or Arts degree?

Obviously the latter two will have no benefit to a pilot but are all the comments above directed at the Aviation degree's?

[scatboy3]

Complete tosh! The degree may prove very useful to wipe your a*se after a dodgy landing.

[cjam]

Chadzat...."a dedicated intergrated aviation degree or just some engineering or arts degree". There are degrees and then there are degrees. A friend of mine just a got a teaching degree which was an absolute joke and I would be ashamed to have it after my name. A science degree or an engineering degree however has basic core matarial and standards and has not changed too radically over the years. They are worlds apart with respect to dedication/effort/basic IQ required to achieve them. I like to think of them as "soft degrees" and "hard degrees". A dedicated integrated aviation degree is definately "semi-soft" and "just an engineering degree" would stand you in much better sted.
Gotta go....the shelves need stocking in aisle 12.

[A333]

A degree may not teach you all this but it does demonstrate to an employer an ability to learn and apply ones self to a task.

That's why there are aptitude, psych tests and interviews.

I dont see it as 3 wasted years but 3 years of study incorporated life experience delivering often a more mature and well rounded individual.

There are many other important factors to determine whether someone is well rounded or not. This is why pilots should be taking part in as many activities as they could and community service during high school.

Obviously a degree does not hurt but I don't see how it could be a benefit either. The only benefit I see is something to fall back on if eg. you lose your medical.

As 404 Titan said above, the application forms are not seperated. If you've passed the minimum requirements, then I think having a degree or not doesn't really make a difference. However, we are all entitled to our opinions so I respect what you say Vertical Limit, I guess it depends on each individual.

:ok:

[Herc Jerk]

Spent well over a decade in the "bush" in more countries than you can poke a stick at. Came out of it with a stack of licenses and experience on stuff from 172s to C130s.

No degree, never a problem. Working for my second major carrier now, from which i hope to retire (not too soon mind you). My second career was taxi driver which took me all of a week to learn and came in handy on a few occasions.

IF, per-chance, i wish to go live in HI or CA or one of the 50-odd States i will apply to do a corresponence degree from one of those oh so "crap" universities back in AUS. Believe my experience gets me credits which will leave about 2 years of study. Hey if i get bored i may just do it anyway- doesn't cost much- but its not a priority for me. Launching 300 or so mostly innocent souls into the air and bringing them safely back to terrafirma is.

After 2/2 successful airline interviews, what do i think "they" are looking for? They want to see you've put in the hard work to get where you are (this can include a uni degree), your resume is not BS (ie you know your sh!t and can perform it in the sim) and that they'll be able to spend long hours with you in a small room without feeling the irresistable urge to headbutt you.

The rest is minimums.

HJ

BTW the only doors that a JAR license opens (that others won't) are EU/UK ones. Unless you want to eat smelly frog cheese or freeze with the Pome's then forget it.

[locusthunter]

Herc Jerk is correct.

From personal experience, a degree or post grad degrees, do not help your chances in GA in Australia. Forget Aviation degrees, Forget MBAs - no-one gives a toss.

I don't know whether a degree hinders an airline application in Australia, but if the attitudes are anything like GA, forget it.

If you have one you are probably better off not putting it on your GA pilot CV, just like it's better not to put your CPL on your Coles résumé.

I like to think of them as "soft degrees" and "hard degrees". A dedicated integrated aviation degree is definately "semi-soft" and "just an engineering degree" would stand you in much better sted.

cjam this is just cr@p... just about any University degree has substance in it. Very few degrees are soft. Different fields require different challenges. Some degree may be more relevant than others to any given field of work. (Some degrees even help you learn to spell “stead” and “definitely”!!!)
Some Aviation degrees did have a lot of relevant substance in them- but they are a thing of the past now. Airlines don't care about them - and airlines have the real buying power.
Some Aviation degrees were not in any way soft and they were more relevant to Aviation than an Eng degree.

The difference is...an Eng degree allows you to be an Engineer instead of a pilot after you graduate- very useful for a lot of graduates who don't get an airline gig for whatever reason.

The point is... in Aviation, unless you want to be an Air Traffic Controller, a degree is next to useless ‘Dunnunda’ and may only be good for what scatboy3 said.



(C'mon someone comment on my incorrect grammar or pick me up on a spelling mistake...pleazzzze...)

[slimthemessiah]

'University Degrees are a waste of time' - thats a bull***t statement if i ever heard one. The only people who say that are the ones without one.

Someone who is tertiery qualified is further educated than someone who isnt. Its as simple as that. But is this important in the aviation indusrty? Yes it is, not as much when your involved in GA, but when you get to Qantas level it is. I know of a major regional airline in Western Australia that although their minimum requirements doesnt even mention the necessity of a degree, I personally know for a fact that HR dept. who sort through the pilot applications put the ones with degrees on top of the pile. Why? Coz past experience had shown them that the pilots with the degrees are generally better suited to operating their mulit million doller equipment Why was that so? Because they are further educated. Would hospitals employ doctors without degrees? No. Do investment banks employ people without degrees? No. 30 years ago they did, but times have changed. YOu dont have to be Einstein to see that airlines are following suit. It wasnt their idea to bring university degrees into aviation, but it means they have to adapt to it. They know that someone who has one is not necessarily a better pilot than someone who doesnt, but they know that it means they are further educated. Anyone can be a pilot. Its not that hard. But not anyone can complete a degree. Anyone who cant see this fact is ignoring it, coz they're trying to defend their indecision of not undertaking a degree.

[locusthunter]

Anyone can be a pilot. Its not that hard. But not anyone can complete a degree.

To a large degree, I agree with you (pun intended- that would have been funnier if you had have heard me say it)...but not many people in the industry will agree. And that is the problem.



:ok:

[slimthemessiah]

STRAIGHT FROM QF WEBSITE:

"Your subject choice and marks achieved should allow you to matriculate and be accepted into the science degree course at any major university."

"Tertiary qualifications are not CURRENTLY part of the minimum criteria to become a Qantas Pilot"

STRAIGHT FROM RAAF WEBSITE:

"Air Force does not require a degree, we find that a significant number of applicants are degree qualified".

Jeez kids, work it out for yourselves.

[Transition Layer]

Has anyone ever considered the role that University Degrees could play in helping reverse the ever-concerning and increasingly downward trend of our conditions?

Imagine if 75% or more of new pilots entering the job market held specialised aviation degrees (or even other degrees like engineering/business). Are they likely to be happy to accept unfair wages for something they are undoubtedly well qualified to do, having spent a lot of time and money in the process? I think not.

One would assume they would have picked up enough skills in their 3 year uni degree to pick up the award and say "Excuse me boss, but this is what it says I'm entitled to." I think so.

Friends and family are continually amazed when I tell them that although I went to uni, only a small proportion of pilots hold a degree of any sort. Straight away there's one way of restoring a little bit of respect and pride in our profession in the public's eye.

We need to start an upwards trend to make our profession more proud and well respected and the increase in University degree holders could well be an option.

TL (a very proud B.Av holder)

[carro]

Well said TL and Slim, i agree with you completely!

Not speaking on behalf of other universities, but at UNSW Aviation, a high standard is demanded of flying students in order to pass. For example, licenses are not just given away like that of some other flying schools that i know of. As such, students become more disciplined and strive to achieve the best results. A high workload aids in preparing us for stresses of employment or on the flight deck.

A degree encourages a student to use his/her brain and their own initiative and i believe enables them/us to process and structure information to make decisions which may one day save 500 or so lives (for those lucky to fly the A380).

Although, I have found the degree to be very relevant, both providing insight into managing an airline or GA company and high quality training, while learning about human factors and the engineering side of aviation, I think that the personal growth achieved through attaining higher qualifications is the greatest accomplishment of all - not to mention the diversified learning and knowledge may present for an interesting convo up the front of the flying bus one day.


Haha that's my 37 cents

[A333]

People these days... :hmm:

Do bus drivers need degrees? Do train drivers need degrees?

Sure they're not operating million dollar machines but you're missing the point that flying has more to do with practical rather than academic. General knowledge, leadership skills, etc. will definately help. But seriously, I doubt degrees give applicants a boost. If you actually do some research, most pilots DON'T have a degree.

Even if they did, they would have probably done it by distance education . The point now is you want to build hours, not study for a medical degree and look for a bl&#dy job in Broome afterwards.

IF degrees were so important to Qantas, why don't they send their cadets to Universities? Why don't any other airlines send their cadets to universities, airlines such as Cathay Pacific, Dragonair, etc.?

IF aviation degrees were really that important, why did UWS stop their aviation degree? I'll give you a moment to THINK ABOUT IT!!

... Because not much people do their course.

As I said before, degrees will give you something to fall back on!

If you give me proof and statistics that applicants with degrees go on top of the pile, then I will believe you. If you can give me proof that applicants with degrees are more wanted than those with hours hours hours, I will go and do a degree straight away. If you can give me proof that those with degrees make better decisions than those without degrees, I will do a degree straight away.

So... from what I see, you're saying that pilots that have a uni degree make better decisions than B744, etc. CAPTAINS who don't have a degree?

Anyway, I'm out... Take it easy! :ok:

PS. Read the thread again and you'll see this is more of a discussion not arguement, I did state that it depends on each own individual.

[locusthunter]

Friends and family are continually amazed when I tell them that although I went to uni, only a small proportion of pilots hold a degree of any sort. Straight away there's one way of restoring a little bit of respect and pride in our profession in the public's eye.
TL, I share your sentiment, but very few others do.

Imagine if 75% or more of new pilots entering the job market held specialised aviation degrees (or even other degrees like engineering/business). Are they likely to be happy to accept unfair wages for something they are undoubtedly well qualified to do, having spent a lot of time and money in the process? I think not.

I also think not. And these same degree holders who have worked hard and spent $$ on education, are undercut by someone who hasn't spent as long or as much money on their own education.

We need to start an upwards trend to make our profession more proud and well respected and the increase in University degree holders could well be an option.

TL, I agree with everything you say - I just wish I was as optimistic as you.
For this to happen airlines needed to have recomended degrees 10-15 years ago when Aviation degrees first started appearing. They didn't care then and they don't care now. All an Aviation degree means is that you've spent more time, effort and money entering the 'profession'- (so maybe you'll stick at it longer or maybe you'll get jack of it sooner??)
Many Unis have shut down their Aviation degrees because they have realised that the industry gave no support for them. The industry did not want them. If you want to know why, look at some of the opinions in this thread.
So closed down degrees have been...UWS as mentioned. RMIT (who have one of the best Aerospace Engineering degrees in the country), the list goes on and on...sure some degrees were ordinary but most had some excellent points.
Will this change? Will it take not 10 or 15 years but 20 or 25 years to turn the wheel? Or is the verdict in? Degrees are finished.




:confused:

[Sunfish]

Friends and family are continually amazed when I tell them that although I went to uni, only a small proportion of pilots hold a degree of any sort.


Aaaaah! That explains a lot of things!:O

[Transition Layer]

locusthunter,

Good to see you agreed with what I penned during my late night rant and rave. I know I am being a little optimistic, but there's no harm in trying!

A333,

A few points...where do I start?

Do bus drivers need degrees? Do train drivers need degrees?

If you class yourself equal to those types of professions, then I wish you well. There are quite a few similarities, but many more differences.

IF aviation degrees were really that important, why did UWS stop their aviation degree? I'll give you a moment to THINK ABOUT IT!!

Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps the product they were offering didn't even come close to that being offered by their competitors. I will have you know for a fact that the number of applicants for aviation degrees in this state (NSW that is) has not gone down since UWS and Uni of Newcastle pulled the plug. Their competitor has grown in the meantime. I'll let you figure out where those students have ended up.

... Because not much people do their course

Well, I can see one reason why doing a Uni degree may be beneficial to someone with your grammatical skills.

If you give me proof and statistics that applicants with degrees go on top of the pile, then I will believe you

I don't think anyone on these forums can answer that question, but I have always been led to believe that at QF for example, a Degree will have a positive affect on someone's overall "competitiveness", which of course takes into account all other factors including hours and flying background.

So... from what I see, you're saying that pilots that have a uni degree make better decisions than B744, etc. CAPTAINS who don't have a degree?

I don't think anyone has ever said that. But when you consider the number of people entering the general workforce holding tertiary degrees these days versus say 20 yrs ago, there has been a huge increase. You now need a degree to be a nurse and even a bloody cop!!! I think it's long overdue that pilots were added to the list.


Sunfish,

Thanks again for your excellent insight into the mind of a failed businessman and PPL holder. Tell someone who cares.

TL

[A333]

I will not believe any of this until I see Qantas saying that applicants require degrees to apply and when Qantas and other airlines send their cadets to universities for training.

Hmmm TL, it seems like you answered most of my questions but the most important one, why doesn't Qantas send their cadets to universities?

The fact that they don't shows that they don't really care whether pilots have degrees or not simply because they CHOOSE NOT to send THEIR cadets to universities.

[404 Titan]

Transition Layer
I don't think anyone on these forums can answer that question, but I have always been led to believe that at QF for example, a Degree will have a positive affect on someone's overall "competitiveness", which of course takes into account all other factors including hours and flying background.
I can answer the question as to whether someone goes to the top of the pile for interview selection for direct entry S/O or F/O in my company if they have a university degree. A few years ago I spent some time working in the Flight Crew Recruitment Department when I was off flying due to medical reasons. The very simple answer is no they don’t. Candidates are initially screened to make sure they meet the minimum educational background. If they do they are put into a pile for further evaluation. In determining whether someone now makes it to interview we grade the files on the applicants background, i.e., Military, major airline, corporate jet, regional airline, GA, turbine etc. We then look at there hours. At no stage do we grade the file based on educational background. Cadets are graded differently as we want to make sure that they can apply themselves when we send them to Adelaide.

There is concerted effort from levels of management well above flight ops managers to keep pilot wages under control. While at the end of the day flight ops will have the final say as to whether someone makes it into the company, they are under considerable pressure to keep the selection process as broad as possible. It makes no sense to favor pilots that have degrees to those that don’t when quite clearly the majority of applicants we see don’t have degrees.

[Transition Layer]

404,

Thanks for your quick reply and for answering my question from a CX perspective.

However, just one point...

...as to whether someone goes to the top of the pile for interview selection for direct entry S/O or F/O in my company if they have a university degree

I don't think I ever implied someone would go to the "top of the pile". I merely suggested that it could possibly make one candidate more "competitive" (to coin a QF phrase) than another, given similar hours/background/age.

A333,

I'd imagine that time would be the main issue, especially since the advent of the Cadet Placement Programme. If they were to complete a degree, then 2 yrs in "GA" (haha) you'd be looking at 5yrs from the time QF recruited them til when they would be ready for QF training. A hell of a lot can change in that time in terms of recruiting requirements. That's just a stab in the dark though.

TL

[A333]

I think you guys have misunderstood me. When I said degrees were a waste of time (BAv), I was saying they were a delay.

Your first job is the most important in terms of building hours. If a degree does not help you in your first job, then why bother with it. Although again I say, it depends on each individual.

If you have got a lot of hours, you've most likely got the right attitude and experience to be flying in an airline let alone in the bush which is hard enough.

Now why delay yourself when you could get more hours during the 2 years, as TL you said.

Degree or no degree, in the end we all want to land a job in the airlines and I'm sure whichever we go, we will reach it with sufficient hours and experience.

[locusthunter]

Well, we all basically agree then. Let's go and have a beer…

:ok:

[readbackcorrect]

much rather be mates with the chief pilot than have a degree

[Vetical Limit]

Yeah good on you Readbackcorrect.

Good luck with that...

[Speedlever]

Degree, I don't think it will help. Who do you want in the seat when the **** hits the fan, a 200 hundred hour pilot with a degree, or some one with 5000 hrs plus in the book with bush and turboprop time in the regionals. You won't even get an interview with less than a 1000. And who do you think will get the job?

carro, with the degree you have, why not call CX or QF and tell them when you would like to start.

[bigfella5]

God........has this hoary old chestnut risen from its lair again???
To Do List

1. Read requirements for job off website
2. Trundle off and do CPL at decent reasonably priced school
3. Do ME/CIR
4. Do ATPL subjects thence find job
5. Do Instructors rating just in case bush is not an option
6. Do/Finish off HSC subjects if relevant
7. Work arse off for an average of 5 years thence get into airline
8. Do a REAL managment degree if and when time allows (will come in handy once one gets sick of flying!)

Dont Do List
1. Get hitched!
2. Get kinda hitched
3. Variations of the above
4. Waste time going to Uni Flight Course
5. Think about getting hitched at point 7 or 8 in the To Do List

There you go my darlings.....how to become a sky god in one easy lesson!
Now.....I'm off to drink wine and dream about getting a paycheck!.....a paycheck.....what a novel idea.....right up there with .............lets see..........a paycheck......I DOOOOOOO know what one looks like!.......it's a square thing right?.......with writing or something.......has a raffia workbase or the such:ok: