View Full Version : Missed Approach After Visual


LEM
11th Jun 2005, 11:07
What kind of missed approach do you perform after a visual approach?

I heard some Captains say that after a visual, ATC expects you to fly a visual circuit at 1500ft...

:rolleyes:

My understanding is most of us would follow the published track for the instrument procedure in use anyways.

But those guys ask: "the missed approach of WHICH procedure? Since you just flew a visual app, you can't know..."

This sound like BS to me, but I can't find any written reference about it, besides good common sense.

Any opinions?



dicksynormous
11th Jun 2005, 11:54
If you have cancelled ifr you must ask for go around instructions from the tower. If you are flying a visual approach, ie seperation is your respnsibilty but still on an ifr flight plan fly the mised approach of the approach in use on that runway. Or something like that. Rules are different between faa and jar over visuals

Approaching Minimums
11th Jun 2005, 12:10
. But those guys ask: "the missed approach of WHICH procedure? Since you just flew a visual app, you can't know..."

When you are flying IFR you must follow those procedures. Visual approach is just a one approach method of IFR. It has nothing to do with VFR so why should you do a visual circuit? As a result of that in case of go-around you will follow published missed approach procedure or conditional missed approach clearance if given by ATC.

You can compare this situation to a circling approach as it is visual method of instrument approach as well. In case of go-around you will follow published procedure and definitely not make a new visual circuit like flying in VFR traffic pattern.

Best Regards,
Approaching Minimums

Captain Stable
11th Jun 2005, 14:47
My understanding is the same as dicksy's - if you cancel IFR to carry out a visual approach, you should ask ATC for missed approach instructions.

Normally they will tell you to follow the missed approach procedure for the precision approach for the runway you are about to miss.

Miserlou
11th Jun 2005, 15:32
Follow the missed approach for the approach you have been cleared or in the case of a visual approach follow that from the ATIS broadcast.

If the ATIS says expect an ILS, then follow the missed approach of the ILS procedure. You'd paint yourself into a corner if your missed approach procedure used aids which were not available.

A visual circuit would be a bad idea because you may have been given the visual to expedite heavy landing traffic.

Do you have a specific airport in mind?

Approaching Minimums
11th Jun 2005, 17:03
If you have cancelled ifr you must ask for go around instructions from the tower.

Well, I don't see any reason why one should ask those instructions from the tower. Just check VFR landing charts and join the correct traffic pattern and next report downwind or whatever necessary. In case if there are both left and right hand side traffic patterns for the particular runway then it would of course be the left circuit unless otherwise instructed by ATC.

Best Regards,
Approaching Minimums

No_Speed_Restriction
11th Jun 2005, 17:34
Since when is a request to fly a visual approach a request to cancel IFR? Dont think so pal.

blackmail
11th Jun 2005, 18:00
hello every one,

when you ask for & obtain a visual approach clearance, as stated in posts above, you' re still on an ifr flightplan & if you dont state otherwise, atc expect you to follow the published missed approach in case of.
now good airmanship would be that the crew upon recieving the visual app. clearance, first decide in due time( not at 200ft agl of course), which missed app would be the most appropriate to apply in case of go-around : ifr procedure or remain in the circuit pattern. if the visual circuit pattern is preferred, then you must ask the tower for clearance & clearly state for example:" IN CASE OF go-around may we remain in the traffic pattern?"( the "in case of" is important, because when the twr hears something like " go-around or missed app", they might actually think you do just that).

Captain Airclues
11th Jun 2005, 18:01
I don't have a copy of PANS-OPS to hand, but in the US the procedure is specified in the AIM (ref 5-4-20e);

"A visual approach is not an Instrument Approach Procedure and therefore has no missed approach segment. If a go around is necessary for any reason, aircraft operating at controlled airports will be issued an appropriate advisory/clearance/instruction by the tower. At uncontrolled airports, aircraft are expected to remain clear of clouds and complete a landing as soon as possible."

Airclues

JustaFew
11th Jun 2005, 19:25
As an Aerodrome controller, I would discuss the options with the flight crew if there is time; eg vectors to the ILS may result in longer airborne-time compared to flying a visual circuit. However, the final desicion rests with the commander. Whichever the flightcrew decide upon, ATC will accommodate.

Capt Claret
11th Jun 2005, 20:55
LEM

the following is from the Australian AIP. Jeppesen ATC-AU708.
1.12 GO AROUND PROCEDURE
VISUAL APPROACH IN VMC
1.12.1 In the event that an aircraft is required to
go around from a visual approach in VMC, the aircraft
must initially climb on runway track, remain visual
and await instructions from ATC. If the aircraft
can not clear obstacles on runway track, the aircraft
may turn.
1.12.2 The exception to the above procedure is
that at Sydney Intl visual go-arounds must be carried
out:
a. in accordance with the published instrument
missed approach procedure for the primary instrument
approach for the runway the aircraft is
using; or
b. as directed by ATC.
NOTE: The order of primacy of instrument approaches
is: ILS, VOR, NDB.
1.13 MISSED APPROACH PROCEDURE
IN VMC
1.13.1 In the event an aircraft is unable, or does
not wish, to land from an instrument approach in
VMC, the aircraft must carry out the published instrument
missed approach procedure for the instrument
approach being flown, unless ATC directs otherwise.

Spitoon
11th Jun 2005, 22:21
Interesting range of answers. My view - which is UK orientated - is that a visual approach is still IFR. In the event of a go-around I will confirm where I want the aircraft to go when the aircraft is established in the climb. The start of a go-around carried out from final will almost inevitably be straight ahead (or runway heading - see plenty of other threads for the debate on the difference). If there is a need for anything else I will tell the pilot what to do in the event of a go-around long before it happens.

Captain Stable
12th Jun 2005, 00:07
Moving this thread to ATC where I think it will get a better range of answers from the blipdrivers over there...

bookworm
12th Jun 2005, 11:16
The "what do I do now?" question is only really pertinent in the case of comms failure -- if you've still got comms, the answer is clearly "as directed by ATC", because you pose the question to ATC.

So for the comms failure case, what do you do?

Acceptance of a visual approach is conditional on a reasonable assurance that a visual approach and landing can be completed. Thus the approach is almost certainly made in VMC.

The comms failure procedure when in VMC is to continue the flight in VMC and land. Here, I think that means a visual circuit. If the conditions make it impossible to fly a visual circuit, that makes it:

a) an emergency situation not foreseen by standard procedures, requiring appropriate ad hoc action from commander and ATC alike
and
b) a situation that the pilot might like to think about before he next accepts a visual approach ;)

Goldfish Jack
12th Jun 2005, 14:35
You certainly remain on your IFR plan when you do a visual approach.

As i understand the ICAO ATM, a visual approach is when all or part of the instrument approach is flown with visual reference to the ground.

Having not been cleared for the instrument approach, you surely cannot complete the MAP in the event of a go-around. Speaking to a few pilot friends, they are of the opinion that you should not go around off a visual approach, unless you have either really messed it up, or there is an outside reason (runway incursion, etc), in which case the go-around will be STC initiaited and they will tell you what to do. IF you have messed the approach up, tell the tower and they will tell you what to do............

Seems simple enough to me

nivsy
12th Jun 2005, 14:49
When the GIB Air (BA) Airbus did a go around a week back in Gibraltar he was VFR having come round the rock-and at 100 feet it all went "pear shaped" due to cross wind at 17 knots and executed a straight ahead climb to 3,000 ft maintaining full visual contact and right turn round the rock to try again, exclaiming his limit is 15 knots cross the runway! Never bothered the sturdy 757 of Monarch following. He simply planted the aircraft on solid ground and hit full reverse thrust and kept it straight!!

oldebloke
12th Jun 2005, 20:05
Canada AIP,stipulates(RAC9.25)that while conducting visual manoeuvers,there is no standard procedures in this situ,it is recommended that
aclimb is initiated
aircraft turned towards the centre of the aerodrome
the aircraft be establihed,a close as possible,to the missed approach procedure publihed for the the Instrument procedure just completed.:ok:

Scott Voigt
12th Jun 2005, 22:11
Pretty much has been said in different ways, but in the US and I believe in most of Europe that I have visited <G>, a visual approach is an IFR approach that is done visually and in VMC. There is NO published missed approach for a normal visual approach. In the US there are some charted visual procedures and there can be a charted miss also. But the norm, is that if for some operational reason you must go around, you do so and then reenter the pattern for a normal landing. There is no missed approach. Now if you have a mechanical issue and you want to get some altitude and go sort it out, you just have to ask and the tower will talk with approach or center whoever has the IFR jurisdiction and get you some climb out instructions. Hope that this is as clear as mud...

regards

Scott

LEM
13th Jun 2005, 15:45
Amazing to see we all agree on what to do! ;)

This seems to be a no man's land...

Just to look at it in very practical terms: what altitude do you preselect in the altitude selector in view of a possible go around?

The published procedure altitude, or 1500ft AGL?

Level headed
15th Jun 2005, 14:15
LEM,

What kind of aerodrome do you operate at? And what class of airspace is it in? The answers will vary considerably and this might get you more specific feedback?

I have worked at quite a few aerodromes within classes D and G airspace, where procedures vary considerably. Ultimately and if ever in doubt, ask the controller that you're speaking to at the time. I would suggest that you brief such procedures before getting airborne and consult with the unit that you are flying to when you cannot find the answer in the relevant documents.

LH

targaman
18th Jun 2005, 11:03
As with many areas of aviation there is a lack of harmonisation due in part to ICAO's lack of legal authority to demand harmonisation and in part to Sovereignty issues.

The practical solution is:
1. Define Visual; part of an IFR appraoch; part of a visual approach procedure (US); part of a VFR approach.
2. Follow the published GA procedure for the type of approach you have just carried out. Remember to revise circling approach MAP if applicable.
3. Make sure you know what you are going to do before you have to do it otherwise you make it hard for yourself and your crew from the time apply GA thrust.

Chok Dee

saintex2002
19th Jun 2005, 17:32
... LEM , as Sott said, in France for exemple " ...There is NO published missed approach for a normal visual approach. "...
...So you will have to wait for, or if it lasts too long ;) , ask for a clearance to fly to join the active rwy... For the little bit I know... But maybe I'm wrong ;)

APP Radar
4th Jul 2005, 00:48
This question appears all the times we have meetings between ATC and Pilots.

In Portugal there is no published missed approach procedure for visual approach.

Some pilots (and ATC) will perform the missed approach procedure published for the approach broadcasted by ATIS and others will try to remain visual and join the circuit pattern for another visual approach.

One problem, however, persists ... in Lisbon the most active runway in use is 03, ATIS normally broadcasts ILS Approach RWY 03 ... but pilots coming from East (from SE Europe, via CCS) often request visual approach for RWY 35 ! In case of go-around what to do or what to expect ?

topdrop
4th Jul 2005, 13:08
I know of an aircraft that did an instrument approach into Cairns and then was circling to land from the opposite end. On the base leg, they lost visual reference due to heavy rain shower. Instead of turning towards the runway and climbing they attempted the missed approach from their original instrument approach - which from their position resulted in them nearly banging into terrain.