What is it actually that you don't lie about the EBA?

[Crystal Marina]

After many weeks of spleen venting, regurgitation, sphincter twitching and bowel rumblings let us just consolidate our feelings towards this EBA.

Think long and hard all of you and be realistic about what you post.

What is it in the EBA that you actually dislike or does a dishonour to you?

Does it jeopardise your future?

Does it not remunerate you enough?

Does it not secure your future?

Is it not fair in the current economic climate?

Does it disadvantage you?

Do you not earn enough under the current pay structure?

Would the public be sympathetic, if you took industrial action and the company started to publicise that its engineers earn in excess of $100,000.00 per year? When only 3% of the population earns more than 125,000.00 per year.

Do you really feel hard done?

Is your job one of hard toil?

Is the company you work for difficult?

Do you not have job satisfaction?

Is you work environment uncomfortable?

Do you think that their are many others out in the real world that do better than you?

Now remember I said look deep inside yourself and answer honestly.

[sys 4]

do you earn 50k base per yr as a lame with 15yrs industry experience.



did your boss give himself a 66% pay rise.


did your union allow your work force to be split into 2 different buisness's.


did they(the union) allow you to have no redundencey if you are sold off.


did the union allow you a say in the neg at any time.


did they allow a mass meeting so you could let your work mates in other areas know how you fell about these changes without the union consulting you and your cost center.



did your local exec member lie at the exec meeting telling the rest of the exec that your cost center was happy with the company offer,when they were NOT.


and finally do you think this offer is reasonable considering record profits made year after year

[pullock]

Lies - your thread title says it all.

Thanks for the best example of a freudian slip that I have seen in a long time :)

[rudderless1]

What is it actually that you don't lie about the EBA?

You said it CM

Most honest thing you've stated.

[numbskull]

What I don't like about it is that we have all been brainwashed into thinking that all we will ever get is 3 % with a few goddies attached for the rest of our lives


I haven't heard of a single pay agreement that has been reported in the newspapers that has got less thanQF employees. They have all got 4-6% or more. All this while QF has earnt record profits from our labour(it wasn't all GD's supreme management).

Having said this I will be voting yes because our illustrious union leaders are recommending this package and QF will not cave in now that they have done this. Our executive have no fight left in them!!

I would love to see a 4 % increase just so people can believe that it can be done. I believe we deserve it but the financial diffference is minimal and if we were to fight now after lifting our bans and get something as meagre as this it would be a pyhrric victory.

[Crystal Marina]

My apologies for the typo. It was meant to read,

"What is it actually that you don't like about the EBA"?

Ok so I made some peoples day!

Small things amuse small minds!:ok:

[Turbo 5B]

Right.
Main points.
The major lack of consultation with Heavy Maintenance.
The O/T Bank was pushed through without even a discussion about how it would be run if it were to be accepted.
On what advice was it deemed to be the best model?
What was it compared with?
Did Heavy Maintenance even want it?
The executive lied to the members. There is no excuse for that.
The different rates for tail payments.
What is Qantas's agenda?
Executive answer...we were not sure what Keith Clark was on about so we accepted the reduction in payment periods anyway.

As a level 3 lame I received no benefit from the 3 point training bonus last eba so my wage is below what is should have been.
An effort should have been made to rectify this.
I am not only pushing this from my position but for any new lames coming into the system. We use the same technology we should be paid for it.
A top paid avionics ame gets more than a level 3 lame, but without the responsibility.

No it doesn't secure my future. How could it?
As an a/f engineer, yes my job is hard toil. And most of the H/M eleco's toil hard as well.

If the company started to publicise that most lames earn more than 100k a year I would be happy to show them my payslip and point out the 2 weekends in three and the afternoon shifts and public holidays I work and still not get anywhere near that.
(I think it's time you took a reality check.
And that's for a start.

[fordran]

Would the public be sympathetic, if you took industrial action and the company started to publicise that its engineers earn in excess of $100,000.00 per year? When only 3% of the population earns more than 125,000.00 per year.


Who are you Chris Corrigan? He tried this crap over the wharf dispute. They kept reffering to a crane driver who earnt $90,000 a year. It didn't create public anger in fact the dispute was one of the most successful in Australia's industrial relations history. Thousands of people lined the wharves when the coppers marched in and most of them weren't dockers.

You sound like a top union official. And an even better bloke.

[Turbo 5B]

How much do each of the blokes in the Federal Executive top positions earn ie Pres,sec,trustee's etc?
Just curious.

[Crystal Marina]

Turbo 5B,
"How much do each of the blokes in the Federal Executive top positions earn ie Pres,sec,trustee's etc?
Just curious."

From the alaea?

[KID Quality]

What is it actually that you don't lie about the EBA?

The sound EBA verus ABC

[Turbo 5B]

No, CM, from Qantas.
What I'm trying to establish is, are they the people on 100k a year plus?
What level do they have in the company?
Do they represent the full spectrum of lames employed at Qantas?

[numbskull]

Can anyone tell me why 3% is the iniversally accepted pay increase for QF while everyone else earns 4% and more.

I know CPI is around that but we are constantly changing work practices to improve productivity(lean sigma, no man transits, 1 person pushbacks etc).

Why can't we share in the productivity increase that our flexible labour provides instead of giving it all to GD, MJ and QF.

[Turbo 5B]

Because that is the benchmark set by Qantas.
It is our duty to smash that benchmark to free up our earning power and be liberated from Dixons brave new world.

[KID Quality]

ahh the great loop forward

[hangar 9]

My apologies for the typo. It was meant to read,"What is it actually that you don't like about the EBA"?


My problem is that for a man that prides himself in his ability to speak so eloquently, you must have an alter ego to have made such a mistake. there is some one inside of you that wants to expose the truth.

Now is the time.

I think this may be the reason the executive has tried to restrain your postings on forums and speaking in meetings. Any police interrogator will tell you, if you can keep the suspect talking long enough the truth will eventually come out.

[Crystal Marina]

Hangar 9,
It is obvious to me that you have been watching too many police dramas on the TV. You should get out more.

Turbo 5B,
I think from my understanding, that the people on the exec do in fact represent a wide spectrum of the LAME population.

KID Quality,
Not worth an answer.

Fordran,
And what came out of that dispute? The current industrial law we now live by!

:ok: :ok:

Turbo 5B,
The voluntary overitme bank was modeled on the Brisbane concept, which I might add most of Heavy Maintenance voted in. You yourself probably voted it in for your Brisbane brothers. What are you trying to say. Good enough for them but not for me?

How did the exec lie to you? Do you mean you did not like what they said?

The tail payments was a request by heavy maintenance to allow for the future of heavy maintenance and probably your job.

The 3 points were in fact in EBA 5. If you were not employed by the company at that time then it is not the unions fault. An effort was made to recify this but the company would not buy it.

The union has tried to address the anomoly between the top AME and the grade 3 LAME. The company reply to this is that it has no problems getting AME\'s to become LAME\'s so why should it address it.

I feel that your future is well secured, otherwise you would sek alternative employment. Or is you family not worth it?

I am sure that you would be happy to display your payslip, but the company would find many others to display that would make yours insignificant.

I have taken a reality check and that is why I speak as I do.



:ok:

Pullock,
Pull your head in.:ok:

Sys 4,
You must be a new employee of the company. Either that or you have taken your time to become licenced. Either way no fault of the company or the union.

No. No-one got a 66% payrise. The board merely asked the shareholders to approve a 66% increase to the amount allowed for the non executive directors. To my knowledge they have not received this amount.

No. Had the union allowed for 2 different EBA\'s, which the company would have loved, then I would have agreed with you. The union has always fought to maintian its members under ! EBA.

No. The redundancy provisions are as they were prior to this EBA.

Yes. Infact the union allowed its members to comment on the document that it endorsed. As far as I know the results of this were 50 / 50 therefore the exec endorsed it. Notices were issued after each and every EBA negotiation meeting and members were free to comment.

As far as i am concerned mass meeting never have nor will they ever be constructive. They are just a venue for a minority to vent their spleens and influence and intimidate others.

I can not answer this question because I have no information one way or the other. I can say thought, that I see no sence in in doing so especially if it were to effect him.

The offer is reasonable in view of the fact that it is the same as everybody else got.

Sys 4 get over it and get on with your life.

:ok:

[Pity City]

Why can't we share in the productivity increase that our flexible labour provides instead of giving it all to GD, MJ and QF?

Could be scary for some, would you be willing to give money back when you don't reach the reqd target. Could open a can of worm that we don't really want to see.

Who knows maybe in the new industrial laws that will be here soon, they might be able to do it without a change in the EBA.

Then again maybe that is why they put such a contraversial EBA out there. We all bicker about it, then vote it down. Proceed with an industrial campaign that only achieves to both put the public against us & endanger our jobs. Qantas then implements the new laws to their full entent and we are all on some sort of casual employment contract where we work for 6 month terms.

Who knows what Mr Howard is going to bring to the table, wonder if Mr Dixon knows this as I have heard he has been a frequent visitor to Canberra in the past month.

[numbskull]

The productivty increases I'm talking about have already been provided yet we have only received pay increases in line with inflation or less over the last 6 years. We should share in the productivity increases not simply give all the benefit to QF.

All other professions and jobs have been receiving pay increases of 4% or more over the last 6years so we are effectivley devaluing our jobs relative to all others by about 1-2% each year.

OK,so there was SARS and 9/11 crisis which wreaked havoc and all employees came to the party but with QF posting record profits I think the time has come to start getting pay increases in line with the rest of the community.

We need to arrest the slow erosion of our pay. Its only 1-2% each year, which seems minor but if this EBA is voted in then it will be happening for the last 8 years(near enoeugh 10% less in real terms relative to other jobs).

How much longer will it go on!!

Just because QF insists on 3% doesn't mean its set in stone or thet we should meekly accept it

[Annulus Filler]

You will probably find that the actual package equates to more than 4% cost to the company when you add all the other costs like quota increases etc etc. So as a matter of fact you are actually getting on average more than 3%. You may say thats all right if you are the one amongst the quotas but the alternative is individual contracts where pay increases could vary considerably without any extras.

[hangar 9]

Pity City,
Your theory of giving up pay if it is a negative profit year would not work. Can't see the board returning 66% of their money.

I heard that SQ is giving their staff an equivalent of 4 months salary as a bonus this year, and that is done across the board, so the only anomaly is you get more or less relative to your pay scale.

This is additional to any award negotiations they may run.

The only incentive our employer gives is "Your lucky to have a job"

With SIA advertising for more staff it could be the right time???

[Redstone]

hangar 9, where have you seen the adverts?

[CASEY JONES]

CM


[/QUOTE] The tail payments was a request by heavy maintenance to allow for the future of heavy maintenance and probably your job.][/QUOTE]


We also wanted the EBA group to see if the QF could increase the size of the DILDO they are using to screw us with in H/m. This is about as believable as the above quote. CLARKE is not the rep for h/m lames.
You don't have a clue how much the current managment are setting back production in MEL h/m with their idiotic plans so as to be seen as earning their kpi money, it's bordering on criminal.
When it goes tits up though these morons will be gone and will get the blame if there's still a job.
? will EBA 8 have a lowering of tail payments for INTERNATIONAL line because i'm sure the H/M &DOM line lames would love to help save international line jobs if this EBA 7 gets up.
Yep its all going to plan / no division here

[KID Quality]

My Old man didn't get where He wants me by taking that laying down! :}

[numbskull]

Annulus filler, I don'y particularly care what it costs Qantas or any other employer.

When teachers,policemen,politicians,firemen,nurses and every other Tom,Dick and Harry have been getting 4-6% over the last few years and I'm copping a wage freeze or 3%, then I'm going backwards!!!

[Annulus Filler]

Numbskull

Teachers,policemen,politicians,firemen and nurses are essential services. They most probably run at a loss. Unfortuneately we are not immune and included in this list. If our business is run at a loss we will be run out of business. Just think Ansett.

[Turbo 5B]

According to the ALAEA we're an "essential service".
We are to QANTAS anyway.
Let's see planes take off that haven't been certified.

[rudderless1]

If I do recall correctly Ansett was destroyed by the mgt and various engine and fuel vanishing acts.

Management from Ansett Engineering is now in control at Qantas, and is using the same dildo.

Take a look at John Vincents engineering reform video from ansett. Not much has changed to his plan.

When will they be seen and held accountable for their stupidity, rather then the worker. :yuk:

[numbskull]

Ok try and hire a sparky,plumber,bricklayer to work on your house and see what they charge.

They don't work 12 hr shifts; don't work nighshift, don't work sundays or public holidays, don't care if they are a day or two late and can't be jailed for failing to do their job correctly. They have been getting substantially more than 3% over the last few years.

Again I say we are going backwards in comparison to all other trades and jobs. I notice annulus filler that you haven't argued against this point.

Qf will never have a problem attracting people to work on their planes because a career in aviation is a childhood dream for many(as it was for me).

The problem they will have is keeping experienced people that have some idea what they are talking about. QF will be like all the big car dealers where they have one mechanic that knows what he's doing and 10 apprentices doing all the work. It works OK for car dealers as the car can be towed back to the shop.(how many people can honestly say they have been happy with the treatment they've got from a car dealership service department??)

Personally I will leave before I become that one LAME

[sys 4]

Annulus Filler you wouldn't happen to be that d!ckhe@d up on the 3rf floor AP,who loves to swollow,why don't you come down to the hanger floor there's plenty for you down there.Co^ksucker.

[Annulus Filler]

Numbskull and Sys 4, I feel you are both past your used by date. Maybe its time to move on and become sparkies,plumbers and bricklayers and you someday may realise that what you had at Qantas wasn't actually that bad.

No, sparkies, plumbers and bricklayers don't work 12hr shifts, its probably closer to 14hrs, 6 times a week. If you don't work, you don't get paid.

When was the last time a LAME went to gaol? You will probably see more sparkies, plumbers and bricklayers in gaol then LAMEs.

They would give you the world and you still wouldn't be happy.

[Mean, Nasty & Tired]

Ooooh what a feeling....................

Saying NO to one crap document

Sick of the lying

Sick of the bulls@#t

Sick and tired

Three strikes you're out, in short S.I.A :E

[numbskull]

annulus filler, I'm not asking for the world- simply 4 % the same as everyone else.

Maybe it is time to move on and take a redundancy if they offer it-it will be the last one if they do!!

Qantas makes nearly $1 billion dollars profit this year-they are in no danger of becoming another Ansett. You have been brainwashed into believing G.D's doom and gloom stories for too long. Just because he repeats it every chance he gets doesn't make it true.

He wants employees to believe it so he can pay them less.He wants government to believe it so he can keep his protected routes.He wants travelling public to believe it so they will support their"Aussie Icon". All the while he rakes in the profits and ups his own pay to $6 million dollars a year!! In another era they called that propaganda.

I know from your previous posts that you are a an avionics LAME probably level 12 or 13. I can concede that life from your perspective is pretty good.However most LAMES would do more work than you AND get less money for it

You still haven't given me any reason let alone a good one as to why I should accept a pay rise less than the community standard.

Until you do I will just assume that you are a fool that will believe anything you are told!!

[JETTRONIC]

CM were in the :mad: have you been working. Me and the dudes here are scratching our heads to find who in the :mad: earns 100k. Pull your head out of you know were and get some fresh air.

Power of the pen. Just gona keep writting up those hold items:}

[sys 4]

anus filler i just want to get paid more than the local semi skilled bloke.
P.S how is Keith
P.S.S working on the 3rd floor doesn't make you a lame you need to be on the hanger floor were the aircraft is.

[Turbo 5B]

Numbskull Teachers,policemen,politicians,firemen and nurses are essential services. They most probably run at a loss. Unfortuneately we are not immune and included in this list. If our business is run at a loss we will be run out of business. Just think Ansett.
Of course they run at a loss. They are public services.
They are paid for by the public.
Qantas isn't run at a loss. On the contrary, it is run at a good profit. Reason being, is they keep screwing our wages down not by running more efficiently. Poor management is disguised by keeping wages lower than they should be.
Vincent's efficient management saved Ansett, didn't it.

[Annulus Filler]

Sure, I can understand we are always looking for more and this has always been the case. But to vote it down for a mere 1% more, I don't think it is worth it.
A grade 3 LAME on say $60000pa is promised a rise of $1800pa, and is gambling on an extra $600pa gross increase to vote 'No'.
A grade 12 LAME on say $110000pa is promised a rise of $3300pa, and is gambling on an extra $1100pa gross increase to vote 'No'.
Traditionally, if it got voted out the first time, we got less the second time, and this is a risk I personally don't want to take. Lets calm down and not let our emotions take over and look at the true facts.

[Turbo 5B]

No a grade 3 lame is gambling on extra % increase and also the 3 training points to bring him in line with existing lames and above a level 13 avionics ame.
The tradition of getting less second time around is one that we brought apon ourselves and is one that we can change if we took a stronger line and negotiated more proffesionally.
By the way the $600 gross increase is only looking at one years gain. You would be getting that $600 each year + when you go up a grade you would be getting the equivilent 1% more etc.
Your maths needs work.
Times the increase by the number of years you expect to work here.

[numbskull]

I understand what your saying Annulus. I initially thought the same after the proposed agreement was brought out minus the "transmission of business clause" and other nasties.

However know that I have had time to think about it some more I still can't see why we should accept less than every other industry and occupation. This of course is QF's plan to propose some truly nasty EBA items only drop them if we accept 3 %. Stringing out negotiations so there is 6 months backpay at stake is also a great tactic that the ALAEA fell into yet again.

We have been accepting 1-1.5% less than other industries for 5-6 years. That means we have gone backwards 6-9% in comparison to all other occupations.

When are we going to draw the line in the sand and say eneough is eneough.

Annulus, no one has still been able to give me any reason why we should accept less than everyone else. Mr Qantas,crystal mariner can you?

Spare me the rhetoric about going bust Ansett style though. There is NO danger of that happening in the forseeable future

[Annulus Filler]

No doubt we should be pushing for the grade 3 LAME to bring him inline with the Avionic AME and no doubt we will continue to push.

[Orville]

Annulas Filler
A grade 3 LAME on say $60000pa is promised a rise of $1800pa, and is gambling on an extra $600pa gross increase to vote 'No'.

A lame on level 3 probably has at least another 25years, ( some even more) in the industry so $1800 X 25 = $45,000 and thats not taking into account any compound increases with any future rises. As has been pointed out, if and when he progresses through the grades the additional 1% would be of greater value.

There are those that only see what is in there hand next payday, and those that encourage a short sighted approach to wage growth, " if you vote yes you can start spending your back pay next week"

Annulas if the extra 1% is so meaningless then the miserly 3% isn't much better, lets not take any increase and keep the status quo.

If you were sitting on the table from the other side you would know that companies budget for pay rises and usually budget for more than is given. They always expect that the next wage increase will be the one that might bowl them over, so a good financial management team will be prepared.

But guess what?

After their negotiations they always put it back into their pockets because we never push hard enough. I don't have 25 years left before I retire, but I would like to see us grow some balls before then and give it at least one try. I have always believed that we have had the ability to make a significant stand, and I thought it was going to happen about 20 years ago at Ansett, but we backed down. Years later I was having drinks with a retired manager from thatv dispute, and he told me that they had budget for a substantial increase but were more surprised than us when we chose not to push that little bit harder.

Money is nice but ask any athlete, to win a hard faught race can be reward enough, and believe me if you let this chance go bye there may never be another opportunity.

[Annulus Filler]

Annulas if the extra 1% is so meaningless then the miserly 3% isn't much better, lets not take any increase and keep the status quo.

Some would say to still have a job and keep the status quo would be a good thing. Can't you see that voluntary redundancy is just around the corner and if it means losing a percent to keep a few extra LAMEs, I am all for it. LAME to AME ratio is way too high.

Orville the $1800pa is what the company is willing to give you right now. It is the extra 1% or $600pa that you will be fighting for if you decide to vote 'NO'. Lets be thankful a grade 3 LAME can still progress through the grades every 4 years. His 3%pa wage rise turns into over 5% when you add in the regrading.

Not bad for someone whose maths needs some work.

[fordran]

The maths you are doing needs quite a bit of work.

You can't count the re-grading as further additions to his salary. This is payment for experience and additional licences. Go back 30 years and the lames got wage rises and as they gained licences additional payments.

All professions have a system of progression throught he ranks. When an F/O becomes a Captain he moves up in position but his base rises remain at the level his union negotiates.

The licence payments are reduced since the pay structure. They are capped as well but yes we may go up every 4 years. For every lame who progresses through his career to the higher levels and then retire, a new lame starts again at level 3.

The company are replacing high level retiring lames with the much cheaper lower level guy. Do some maths on the saving they make there Mr Filler.

[Turbo 5B]

Thankyou Orville and Fordran,
If my maths was better I could have explained it, but as is it's hopeless I'm glad you explained it for me.
I hope you understand it Anus Filler because if that maths lesson doesn't wake you up to what's at stake then I don't know what will.
What's your view on this Crystal Mariner?
Keeping in mind that each time the Lames have accepted only 3% the flow on effect has been big dollars for the next 25 years.

(is it LAME by name or by Nature)
And when is this push to bring the Level 3 in line (should be higher) than a level 13 ame going to happen?
Sure as sh!t aint happening this eba.

[Annulus Filler]

You guys have got to be kidding. Whether your pay increases by EBA percentage increases or by gaining another grade, it equates to a pay rise and must be accounted for in the company budget as a cost.

[Turbo 5B]

No sh!t sherlock.
Not enough increase adds to my budget costs.
That's my biggest concern.

[sys 4]

you must be joking anus,that increase in grade is for experience gained and knowledge gained.Not to maintain your current standard of living.
As you get older in life anus you hope to better your standard of living and your families and that comes with becoming better at your job and becoming senior.My regrades are there to encourage me to remain at Qantas and climb some sort of carrer ladder.
Not suck up as yourself,that is not dignified nor is it a true carrer path.

[The masked goatrider]

You guys have got to be kidding. Whether your pay increases by EBA percentage increases or by gaining another grade, it equates to a pay rise and must be accounted for in the company budget as a cost.

What scares me about this post is the possibility that you may be one of the tools negotiating for us.

The company accounts for LAMEs going up levels. They also account for level 10, 11 and 12 LAMEs retiring and being replaced by a level 3. Maybe you can go speak to the ALAEA accountants for a further explanation.

[Crystal Marina]

Turbo 5B,
Maybe you need to budget better!:ok:

The masked goatrider,
Regardless of whether the company accounts for this rise or not it is still a rise that is afforded to most LAME's and therefore a cost to the company. It is also a rise that is given to you on a platter every 4 years up to level 8 irrespective of any training. Hence 5 unrestricted rises over a 20 year period guaranteed no questions asked.

[Redstone]

Crystal Marina, you are so far from the mark it's not funny.

[numbskull]

Crystal your right, we will get get a payrise "given to you on a platter every 4 years up to level 8 irrespective of any training."

Most large companies paying award wages also have a pay scale that reflects years of service and still manage to pay 4-6%.

Telstra made the paper because they are going to go on strike because they're only being offered 2.5%. I bet they get more than that or they will strike yet we are going to meekly accept 3% with barely a whimper!!

I am ashamed at times how poorly led we are and how gutless the memership is at times!!

[Turbo 5B]

I would still like to point out that a level 3 Lame certifying for 744 and engine is paid less than a level 13 avionics ame.

It must be nice to have the money without the full responsibility.

And by the way we don\'t even know what the company would have offered us if we put on a higher duty ban and a secondment ban.
Strike action might not even be required to achieve a reasonable outcome.
What a shame that the tw@ts on the executive pulled the pin just as we were applying the pressure.

[Crystal Marina]

Turbo 5B,
I see It did not stop you from becoming a LAME so as you could join the dissy heights of the elite earners.

Had you stayed a AME you would have been at the height of your career but you chose to become a LAME so you could earn more.

So don't come and whinge on this site about how hard done by you are.

Maybe you ticked the wrong box when you joined the company or were not eligable to become and Avionics AME. Thats not our fault.

Remember that level 3 LAMEs only make up about 10% of the company's LAMEs.

Grow up and wait your turn buddy!:ok:

[JETTRONIC]

CM you are with out question a total :mad: wit:ok: