16 years on from 1989 - what have Australian pilots learned?

[Kaptin M]

So where are we 16 years on from 1989?

I’d like to try a “sanitized” approach from what has been the usual, when the Australian pilots’ Dispute of 1989 has been discussed.
A thread devoid of pilots from each side blaming the other, and looking at it from various aspects of the other players, just for a change.

My personal opinion is that Bob Hawke – the then Labor Prime Minister – sold all four airlines a pup, when he embroiled them in the Dispute.
Whether the brawl was started by a group of greedy pilots, or a Federation directed by its’ members to try to regain the same relative salary position they had held prior to voluntarily committing themselves to Hawke’s Accord is not an issue, this time around.

My belief is that Hawke led the airlines – Ansett, Australian, East-West, and IPEC – into a fight on his behalf, in the belief that the pilot group would be quickly subdued (within a matter of a couple of weeks) at little cost to the airlines, because the Government would bankroll them through that period.
Following their capitulation, the AFAP pilots would no longer be able – for as long as they remained within the Government controlled Accord – to negotiate as freely as they had in the past, and achieve the enviable conditions Australia’s airline pilots enjoyed.

Instead, Hawke led each and every one of those four companies to their demise, because he grossly under-estimated the conviction of the pilots.

Most pilots, I believe, would agree that the pre-1989 airline pilots enjoyed EXTREMELY good conditions, negotiated for them by their union.
Most pilots would also concur, I believe, that the conditions of Australia’s airline pilots today, leave a lot to be desired.

As a UNITED group, the pilot workforce achieved far more for themselves, than is offered in any of the contracts today.
There was more transparency in employer-employee dealings because there was an agreed, established set of guidelines that was monitored and enforced from BOTH sides.
Quite different today, isn’t it!

That’s an opener from me.

[F/O Bloggs]

Oh groan!

Here we go again.

Oh what a surprise, Kaptin M has started this off.

Please no.

:yuk:

[Flying Ninja]

LORD , give me the courage to change the things that I can. Give me the strength not to try and change things I cannot. Most of all give Kaptin M the wisdom to tell the difference between the two.

Roll over and go to sleep

:zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

[Cronus]

I was torn between giving this thread the time of day and posting or ignoring it outright.

At times this forum irritates me, so I have been trying to use it constructively and creatively and have been learning from the collective knowledge that abounds here, whilst avoiding the ****e stirring posts and consequently I've been really enjoying my time here.

Please for the can we move on...16 years is a long time ago...

[Keg]

What have we learnt Kapt? Obviously nothing considering the way that we pilots keep slitting our own throats and treading over our brothers to get a job for ever less money and conditions! :* :{

[FatEric]

Keg,

Perhaps you could expand on where the throat cutting is occuring.

[Kapt. Ive]

I heard from some (South African) friends of mine over at EK the other day that Emirates pilots talk about us Aussies as having "a firm grasp of the non-essentials." I agree with them entirely !!!

[Tail_Wheel]

The events of 1989 were simply part of on going Australian Industrial Relations reform which has been occurring for the past forty years. One party to the dispute simply mismanaged their negotiations.

What have pilots learnt? That the old days have gone for ever and a new era in industrial relations exists right across the spectrum of Australian commerce. If you don't believe that, watch the next twelve months or so, beyond August 2005.

[Not_Another_Pot]

*Yawn*, Bloody bus drivers :)

[Woomera]

This topic hardly deserves to be in Reporting Points as it is not news.

Kaptin M asked a question. Woomera moves topic to D&G Questions, where it belongs.

Woomera (Eastern States)

[Kaptin M]

You're right.
We wouldn't want to have any topics on the main forum that stimulate anything other than superficial thinking, that encourages petty name-calling, would we. Yes, I admit, I have been guilty on the odd occasion.

It's time Australian pilots took stock of precisely WHERE they are NOW, and the road that they followed to get there.
IMO, they're at a roundabout - going round and round and round - too obsessed with who's in front and behind, to see the Exit roads.

p.s. It was a rhetorical question, Woomera, but obviously the subtlety was lost on you....mind you, it is a Sunday morning (the day after Saturday night!) :ugh:

[Boney]

The dispute happened and alot of drivers left overseas in disgust and stuck to their principles - I salute you.

However, a decent amount of these people, who I use to admire for their principles, made lots of money o/s for 15 years.

They then have been more than happy to come back to Oz, work for alot less as THEY have made their loot, in effect, lowering the average airline pilot salary 20%. After all, it is just a pre-retirement job for 10 years.

From all the Wannabe's in Australia - Thanks guys.

[Kaptin M]

The reality of Virgin Blue was that it needed a backbone :} of immediate Captains to get off the ground.
It was also the first opportunity for many Australians to return home to a flying job, in over a decade.
Most did NOT make "lots of money" - as a Captain with Malaysian Airlines, I was actually slowly going backwards for the 3 years I worked there (my credit cards were all almost all maxed out), receiving a post tax salary of MYR11,000/month (about AUD3,800) - out of that came rental, MYR2,500, utilities, feeding a family, and paying my son's Uni fees in Oz, etc.
One month I remember leaving on a 3 day trip with MYR13 (AUD4.50) in my pocket - and zilch left in the bank.

Which option would YOU have taken, Boney, had YOU been in that position at the time?

[chief wiggum]

let me get this straight Kaptin M....

YOU criticise us for flying in our dream job AT HOME, where a 737 Captain at Virgin get paid approx 140k, yet, you throw your hands up in disgust, sh!t in your own nest, leave your home and family in Oz, but are happy to work at MAS for $3800 per month after tax ???? as a captain!!!!

even at 50% tax rate, that means that you are earning :
7600per month
x 12 months
= 91200 per year!!!

you fought to get this????
and WE are the ones incurring your wrath for working for peanuts ????

[Kaptin M]

No Chief, I don't criticise you "for flying in our dream job AT HOME". I'm envious that you are able to afford to be able to do so.

Let's get the FACTS right - I didn't leave my family at home. They left Australia and joined me in Singapore for almost 6 years.
By the end of my contract there, my sons had entered Uni in Oz, and so the bills continued coming in.
I was fortunate enough to obtain my command through an ex-Ansett Captain colleague in the Philippines.
At the end of that contract, another ex-Ansett Captain colleague, who realised that I was jobless, recommended me for a job with MAS, and a chance to continue building my command time.

Remember, the airlines involved in the Dispute had black-balled their previous pilot employees, and Hawke had tried his damndest to prevent us from achieving employment overseas, and is rumoured to have contacted several countries asking them to refuse us work as we were ASIO listed "political dissidents".
THAT is what we were fighting.

You don't "incur my wrath" for working for peanuts.
The terms of employment each of you is offered is non-negotiable - so you have - as INDIVIDUALS - no say in the matter.
The power of ONE against that of a manager, backed by an entire company, is futile!
Management realise they wield enormous power, ONLY because they have the backing of "The Company".

But what I am surprised at, is that many of the younger generation haven't looked at the events up to 1989, to see what great benefits a UNITED workforce can achieve.
I also believe that the Australian airline pilots' Dispute made companies everywhere, realise that direct confrontation with a UNITED workforce may well spend their demise, which is why it is in the company's interests to keep the workforce divided....."Why should I join a union? Look where the 1989 pilots ended up!"

Fortunately, now, the pilot shortage is working in our favour, and will do so for another few years. But once over the hump, expect to have your conditions assaulted again, by forces that will overwhelm the individual(s).
Unless they can UNITE.

[Fantome]

. . . how often must it be repeated that something approximating the true story, and the footnote details of lives blighted and wounds unhealable will not be told for years? In the meantime there is nothing to be served by
recriminations all over again or guesses at the plotting and intrigues that precipitated the disaster. And if those today who rate their former colleagues pariahs are unyielding in their contempt, all the more reason to hold back until it is possible to assess the veracity of much evidence as yet classified or in other ways withheld.

For those who turn a scornful eye towards history, Sir Walter Raleigh wrote in his preface to 'History of the World' :

"We may gather out of history a policy, by the comparison and application
of other men's forepassed miseries with our own errors and ill
deservings."

[Boney]

Kap

What would I have done?

After 10-15 years o/s making decent dosh and the offer of a job back home making less than what I was for 10 years previous, before I retire - yep, probably would have jumped at it too.

It is a FACT that the re-turnees have helped ruin the industry for those now trying to forge a career in aviation in this country.

I just find it very interesting indeed that there is NEVER any discussion of this on these forums.

For those half way through PPL training planning to go onto Com, it may well be a God send. After all, now that it is becoming the norm that now you even have to subsidise the training departments of most airlines in this country via paying for your endorsement - why would any half smart 20yr old bother?

From the rest currently working in GA who dream of just having a wage one day equal to that of an electrician - Thanks guys!

[Kaptin M]

As you can see, Boney, many of the guys who returned were NOT making "decent dosh". Like me, many of the current VB Captains were slowly going out backwards, and had only hung on to aviation in the hope that one day, one of the new start-ups would finally gain a foot hold.
Let's not forget about Compass 1 and Compass 2.
The pilots flying for VB are doing so, because they HAVE to, to survive.
Even if it is ekeing out only a meagre existence (compared with what they COULD be making overseas). But they are dedicated to making VB an ongoing success, for the sake of the younger up and comers.

Far from ruining the Oz aviation industry, the survivors of Hawke's assault on pilots, have assured those aspiring to airlines of a position as F/O's, progressing to a command.

Anyone who believes he is worth more money need only say so at interview time with ANY airline/company anywhere, and make it known to his prospective employer that he is unwilling to join the company for less.
N E X T.

But you are absolutely right, Boney, aviation does NOT offer a viable financial return on the investment required.

[Sprite]

Seriously, though, what can one do? Agreed we need to defend our conditions, however pilots are more concerned arguing over petty things... "we shoud be paid 5:30h for a uniform fitting..." rather than important issues! I mean there is more argument over uniforms and hotel changes than a year late EBA!

The majority leave union meetings alone because they are filled with bureaucratic BS. Hours of arguments about minutes and the validity of proposals on whether certain opinions have a right to be aired. A good sedative for insomniacs.

Like any business venture, goals need to be defined and plans developed.

1) Protect existing conditions
2) Concentrate on the things that matter!
3) Maintain recognition of pilots as professionals

[chief wiggum]

Sorry to have upset you Kaptin M, and maybe these are stupid questions, BUT:

Can you spell out for us exactly what is was that you chaps were asking for when the strike happened ?
Why did you all resign en-masse ?
How did Bob Hawke precipitate this revolution?
what was your pay and conditions prior to the strike ?
Would you do it again ?

I was nowhere NEAR aviation in 89, so I don't fully know. Please explain to us what EXACTLY happened.

[Boney]

Kap

Maybe you are correct, I am not saying I know everything - just the way it appears sometimes. It makes it abit unfair for those who got their CPL's in the 90's. At the time, you worked hard, hopefully get into a Regional/Major and earn X. But for these people, the goal posts have shifted since they initially took steps in their chosen career. Now, you will probably get paid somewhere between 80% -100% of X and you will have to pay for your own endorsement as well.

Very disheartening!

These 90's CPL's are still competing with just as many as usual for a limited number of jobs.

As stated in an earlier post, at least those coming through now most likely will be competing with less wannabes in 5 years. Not much use though if you are already 30+ with 2,000TT/1,000multi and are just trying to have a go. When the job market changes due to less people considering flying as a career, you may well be too old.

Great timing!

I think the saddest thing for ALL of us in this game is at the end of the day - they won.

Abeles must be giggling in his grave?

[king oath]

Chief baby,
there was/is a good book on the subject by australian journo Brad Norrington. I 'm sure its out of print now.
Brad was pretty accurate in the book.

Its a pity he can't get it reprinted. Students of Australian Industrial relations would find his book a good reference to this sorry event.

[tinpis]

I will provide you with this link (http://www.vision.net.au/~apaterson/aviation/pd89_introduction.htm)
Wiggum
Questions will be asked later.
:*

[Disguise Delimit]

Every year, Kraptin M drags this bait out and tosses it into the forum.

Most people recognised it for what it was, and avoided the bait. But after 11 responses, Boney took the bait and all the old scars are torn open again.

Get over it. Even Gough's followers found out that "maintaining the rage" was a pointless exercise.

[redsnail]

What's been learnt from the industrial dispute in 1989? Not much really. That's the great travesty of every one's pain.

There's no cohesion, there's no strong voice and there's still "dog eat dog" out there.

I'm here perched in the UK on not a bad job however I am well aware it can all go pear shaped in no time at all. Is there are union in this company? Probably not since there's many different nationalities working here. So many are not aware of just how vulnerable they are industrially.

Am I a member of a union(s)? You bet I am.
Is this union effective? Hard to say. If you belong the the Big Airline (UK) then I think you're laughing, if not then you know what the 2 letters in the union's name really represent.

Fortunately there's a lot of worker info out there in the WWW but you have to be the one proactive enough to care to look for it. Will they (the union, non Oz) act on it? Who knows? What is very apparent is that the union representation is as only as good as the pilot council representing it. Funnily enough, in the UK airlines there's been a higher than normal percentage of Aussies on various CC.

So in a round about way, perhaps the lessons of 1989 have been absorbed and adapted to a new environment with new accents. I certainly hope so.

[Kaptin M]

Good on ya, Reddo, for re-railing this (what I believe is important) topic.
In actual fact, I think your first two paragraphs put the essence of the Australian aviation "scene" beautifully into its awful perspective.
Because as much as the Dispute of 1989 is raised again and again (and again and again...), how many people apart from the ant/protaginists involved (other than Reddo) have bothered to look beneath the lemming/scab name-calling at the REAL issues involved, that affect each and everyone of them today?

I don't " drag(s) this bait out and toss(es) it into the forum" for any reason other than (usually :} ) to try to get Oz pilots looking at where they are now, and where they COULD be, by learning, not only, by the mistakes of BOTH groups of pilots involved, but also by the STRENGTH of their peers.

The (various) companies - regardless of where you are working in the world - would like to have you believe that to join a union will be to your detriment.
So precisely WHY are the companies (funny how YOU deal with a company, but they want to deal only WITH you, isn't it!) so anti-union?
Your "manager" finds it quite acceptable for Him to act with the force of the company behind Him, but denies YOU the right to have a spokesperson (union rep) represent YOU. :confused: