To KA or NOT?

[checkthrust]

Can anybody give me a sensible and fair opinion of life at KA. I got the nod, but wont start for a long time yet. I was dead set on Dragonair and really looking forward to it, but there seems to be a lot of doom and gloom around. The guys i know who just started with them are having a good time though. Whats the story? Cheers.

[Kapt. Ive]

Take it. It's a flying job, and you're being offered it, so unless you're financially independant or flying for someone better (who that could be, I wouldn't know) you might as well take it.

There's a load of dung going down at KA right now but hey, where the hell isn't it sh!tty these days..? Roll on pension is all I can say!

Hope you're not off to the freighter fleet. Seems the Mayor of Wan Chai has finally justified his salary and position as Deputy Manager of Bugga Rall by coming up with a "money saving" scam that's going to nail those blokes down and root the entire fleet.

Good luck mate; you might find that you need it...? :ouch:

[AnQrKa]

“life at KA”

It all depends on what floats your boat.

Good - Pay, allowances, housing, staff travel. These could all change but while it lasts it’s a good source of clover.

Line drivers are mostly good to work with, treat you with respect – unlike my previous airline where FO’s were treated like nuff nuff’s.

Command prospects – good, still happening although no longer as certain as once before. CX commercial agreement could have an impact. Crystal ball stuff.

Training and checking – average at best. Unrealistic sim scenarios. Lots of young guns on the 320 use training and checking as a willy waving exercise and not an opportunity to foster learning. Check captains appear to invent SOP’s that suit themselves at the time.

If good pay and conditions of service with good command prospects and shiny new aeroplanes is what you are after, go for it.

If progressive modern thinking and quality best practice flight operations turns you on, look elsewhere.

[Fly747]

Is the Mayor also the 60s Porn Star? Just want to be sure who we're talking about. If so then for him to come up with Dubai basing idea without consulting the DPA rostering rep is out of order, especially as a DPA member himself. The rest of us will get the horrid little trips to the sand pit and back with min time off. Don't think it will work anyway when the DXB based find out they don't get the promised days off from the wicked witch of rostering.

[Ka-life]

Everything is unsure with KA for the moment. No new routes planed. A lot of new carriers in HKG. If there are no new routes/Aircrafts there will be no new commands and you will be stuck in right seat.

Guys going through command now has been in KA about 2 years but command will stop very soon if there is no change to the management/CX takeover.

[koki]

Ofcoz there are new routes upcoming in KA otherwise the company cannot expand after his 20th birthday. HKG to Seoul and Sydney are 2 new routes that will be started operation in the coming year. And in order to cope with the prouded A330 fleet will get expanded for sure.

Please keep a look on the latest news if you are really interested to join KA.

[checkthrust]

Thanks Guys. I was trying to get away from the old school mentality, what a shame if KA is no different. I figured with new aircraft on the way and a pretty young fleet that the working practices might be modern too. I do know however that its gonna be better than where i am right now. I got the nod for the pax fleet at HKG. They said most likely 330 Jan ish, but nothin definate. Anyway i'll keep my finger on the pulse and see how its looking before i apply for a P45. Thanks again.

[A4G]

Checkthrust: The $$$ are ok at best for living in HK but you really need to be on the "House Purchase Scheme" to get ahead as fast as possible. Most line guys are great to fly with as is the same at most other airlines. Staff travel no better or worse than anywhere else although we now have to pay if we return an unused ticket. Don't expect to get a decent block of days off ever. Expect to finish late before a day off >10/11pm and be knackered on most of your free time. The pollution is shocking!!! I know a lot of guys are seriously worried about their famillies here. As mentioned previously the sims are inconsistent to say the least. They just chopped another guy who was having a second go at command (this guy is as sound an operator as you'll see with a very positive attitude) on his last day in the sim after a grinding 6 week course. Those involved should hang their heads in shame! The playing field is not level in this area as it all depends on who you get & there are some real assasins who do the sims. We have a great union run by a fantastic comittee who do a very hard job dealing with a beligerant self interested management. Ask as many people as you can and get as much info as you can & discuss it with your wife/partner (if that's the case) before you start.

[Midnight Oil]

I think it is you who is the assassin A4G. You hide behind the bulletin board's cloak of anonymity to attack the integrity of the checker by implying he was not acting professionally when he failed someone's command in the sim recently.

Two points to note:

- you were not there, so you do not know what went on.
- the guy who failed is happy to tell those who ask that it was a fair assessment. I and others have heard it from him directly.

A cheap shot on a sensitive subject that you know nothing about.

[A4G]

Midnight Oil: You need glasses. I certainly did not attack the checker. All involved are responsible not just the candidate and therefore have a responsibility in this matter. Of course he is not going to speak out publicly. I notice you are also anonymous in your post so i guess you are hiding then. I hope Checkthrust reads your post as he/she will now have more information regarding the company culture.

[Midnight Oil]

Yes A4G, like you I am anonymous, but unlike you I am not hiding behind my anonymity to fling mud.

You said the sims were inconsistent, then you went on to say someone was chopped in the sim and that those involved should hang their heads in shame (implying they had not done their best for the chap). Next you said there was not a level playing field in this area (ie command sims), and finally you said there were some real assassins who do the sims.

I think if it was not your intention to attack the integrity of the checker involved then perhaps you should be more precise in your writing...

I am not quite sure why Checkthrust should read my post to get an idea of the company culture. I am only posting to challenge what I perceived to be unsubstantiated allegations against someone who did some of my training and who I like and respect both professionally and personally.

Your other points about Hong Kong and the company are all valid; don’t spoil it by commenting on something you know nothing about. As I said previously, in this particular case:

- you were not there.
- the chap involved told me it was a fair assessment, in private – he had no reason to say otherwise.

[A4G]

Midnight oil:
(1) I stand by my comment re the sims & I didn't mean specifically command sims (read the post again)
(2) I feel my comments are honest and accurate.
(3) Not sure what your problem is with being anonymous? Read the PPrune info & if you don't like it don't read it.
(4) You are assuming I know nothing about these things.
(5) The system let him down.

[Midnight Oil]

A4G,

If you meant that you thought the system let the guy down then that is what you should have said. You could have said why you felt that way and then could have even given some suggestions on how the system could be improved. Hopefully those with the power to change these things might even read them and maybe they might take the ideas on board.

Now back to the original thread...


Checkthrust,

The previous posters are correct, pollution can get quite bad and this would be a consideration if you have children.


Lifestyle in Hong Kong has been well covered in other threads, do a search. Some people take to it well, some don’t and moan about it all day long. Most of us I guess are somewhere in the middle.


The company has been steadily expanding for years, so progress to command can be reasonably fast. However, expansion will inevitably stop one day and this will leave a bunch of unhappy FO’s, frustrated at having to wait for normal attrition to upgrade. No-one really knows when the expansion will end.


Once the aircraft doors are closed it is one of the best airline jobs around. Good equipment and a great bunch of guys to fly with. We have a few fools as does any organisation, but the percentage is a lot less than other airlines I have worked with. Standards are pretty good, with virtually all the captains you fly with well up to the job. The flying is interesting (sometimes very challenging) although the night stops are not very glamorous (eg Nanjing, Hanghou, Taipei, Shanghai. Beijing etc). It is short haul so don’t expect to be sitting by the hotel pool for 2 days.


Personally, I have found the training fine with all the guys professional and keen to help. Several I found to be outstanding. I have come across one or two who I felt were too picky (everyone knows who they are) but you get them in every company. Some guys deal with it better than others (see various postings on this and other threads).


It is short haul so we do not get long blocks of days off. Single days off are not uncommon. The company and union are cooperating to trial a new system of fast track rosters where crews work harder and longer when they are working, and subsequently get a big block of days off. If it works out it will bonus for those of us who want to get away from Hong Kong for a period each month.


They are short of crews at the moment, particularly on the A320 where the crews are all working hard. Overtime kicks in at 75 credit hours with double time kicking in at 80 credit hours. It is really good for the first couple of pay packets but after a few months it would be just nice to have a normal roster.


There is rumoured to be an announcement sometime soon regarding an equity swap of some kind between some of our owners (ie CNAC Swires, Cathay Pacific, CITIC etc). Lots of rumours, but zero communications from the top, resulting in a perception among the staff that the company is drifting along rudderless. Morale among local staff is poor. No-one really knows what it will all mean for the Dragon. My guess is will probably mean closer co-operation between Cathay and Dragon and so better job security, at least for pilots.


The company is focusing quite ruthlessly on cost cutting, which includes frequent attempts to “reinterpret” our conditions of service. Some Dragonair hopeful commented on another thread that this is the way of the world now and that we should get used to it. Hmmm… Well, most of us just want to be left alone to get on with the job with the contract as per the one we signed up with. Until that happens we are in contract compliance. Basically it means we work strictly to the terms of our contract, without extending duty into discretion etc. As AG4 said above, the union committee, with the support of the crews, are committed to maintaining our conditions. We already get paid less than our CX colleagues and there are few who would say that in comparison we don’t earn what we get.


I cannot speak for the B747 freighter crews but from all reports they are very, very unhappy due to really poor roster stability.


I hope this helps with your decision checkthrust.

[Flap 5]

Midnight Oil,

Are there any A scale pilots left? How many?

[Ka-life]

There are about 20-25 A-Scalers around. A few FO's and mostly Captains.
A-Scalers are now also flying on the 747F.

[KAFO]

If you have been accepted by Dragonair, first of all..Congratulations!

You have obviously been to Hong Kong and decided that you can live here. HK is a good place to be based, 13 hrs to Europe...9 hrs to Aus. It is conveniently central.

About KA. First of all, there seems to be some pilot's who spend a disproportionate amount of their time seeing lots of negative issues regarding Dragonair....I suspect a little bit of tunnel vision here.
The speculation surrounding our Airline is mostly fuelled by rumours..This is a case of "What If" in reality we can only deal with "What Is" and "What Is" is that we are all flying new Airbus aircraft, under good conditions with job security.

This is a great job! Good conditions, great airplanes, good captains to fly with. Everyone, is supportive. If you have any questions, the captains are only too happy to help solve it.

As far as the training goes, it is sufficient. You get 14 sim sessions, 3 sessions for your first check, aircraft base training, line training and the training captains I had were very good.

Dragonair pay for all of your training and pay you to do it. There are no bonds. This is rare these days.

So, checkthrust, be objective in your decision to join us. You will love it!!:ok:

[AnQrKa]

The debate regarding KA’s training has bounced back and forth between some posters with little concern for the big picture.

There are such a disproportionate number of command attempts that fail, especially considering the experience level and background of some of these candidates, that it amazes me that people try to defend the system.

If KA can't pass an airline pilot with 8000 hours including 5000 hours on same type and nearly 1500 hours in company after PCW, CGS, numerous sim checks and PCE then there is a problem with the check and training system. This has happened on too many occasions for it to be a case of substandard candidates. At one stage, command failures were about 50%. This is pathetic.

There is more of the old school attitude adjustment to training than actual training.

[flap relief]

Command training at KA is an enigma. It is built up into something that breeds fear/anxiety for potential canditates, partly because it is available very quickly to some, and partly because of rumour and innuendo that trickle down from both those who have succeeded and those who have missed out.

I do not believe CT should be the basis for applying for/accepting a job at KA. If you have been offered a job at KA and you believe you (and more importantly your wife) can live as an expatriate in Asia then it is a very good option given what else is on offer.

If you have enough options to not consider one of the best in the current climate for experienced drivers then I admire your position.

One of the significant factors at KA when it comes to CT is the broad range of nationalities involved. I acknowledge this is not unusual in the modern airline business but at KA we are trying to create commanders in two years from vastly different career paths as well as very different backgrounds.

Am I missing the point here? You are joining as an F/O. If you make the grade you will become a commander. The grade will always be subjective no matter which company you join.

[Feather Boa]

This thread has turned into a debate about KA's command course... some pass, some dont.. like it or not, you cant and wont change their system, thats just life here at Dragonair.
More importantly why has KA changed from a reasonably happy little airline to what it is today, an airline which has no heart or soul. It is not an enjoyable place to work, sure the money and conditions are ok BUT... The Co are continually picking at our T & C's
ie, applying a fee to refund unused staff travel tickets.. We are expats that the company need! One of our enjoyed privileges is staff travel. Why try to punish us for it?

ie House purchase scheme, the co are refusing to pay certain insurances (which have previously been enveloped in the housing scheme).My question is, it costs the company nothing to pay for this, and it means one of their expat employees has purchased a family home cementing his ties with HK and KA. WHY are the Co discouraging this?

ie Getting leave approved is also very difficult, why are we made to feel grateful that Crew Planning has given us leave. We are Expats that the Co need, we want to get out of HK every now and then!

ie KA has had some expansion, sure, but after next year there are no new A/C due, Why did we wait for every man and his dog (QF,VS) to start operating longhaul from our home base before considering doing ourselves. China and SE Asia is booming, our idea of expansion is to increase frequencies to PVG and PEK!
I could go on........

KA is a company that lacks management, leadership and efficiency.It has made money only because it operates in a protected environment.
Perhaps when/if we have a closer association with CX will KA's true potential be realised.

Fx


PS What exactly is the point of a 20yr anniversary.

[Fly747]

It's not 20th anniversary, it stands for 2%, i.e. the payrise we got.
Quote from Mrs Doubtfire, "yes I'll do 2% discretion"!
It really is Micky Mouse now, I understand that lots of the local staff are leaving for better paid jobs at the new Disney.
Another 747 capt recently left cos of the length of trips. They didn't have the sense to let him go part-time as he requested.

[Kapt. Ive]

Can't see what she's still doing in the company anyway? Probably still trying hard to write one off ? Matter of fact; I can't see why any of you freighter-trash put up with the KA Cargo sh!tty conditions, money, hours, rosters, (lack of) training, back-stabbing, geriatric airframes, bla-bla...

[AnQrKa]

Feather,

“This thread has turned into a debate about KA's command course... some pass, some dont.. like it or not, you cant and wont change their system, thats just life here at Dragonair.”

This is a major gripe for a lot of pilots at KA. The way some pilots have been treated by the management following a thumbs down command course is appalling. Especially considering the little training / lots of checking mentality that pervades the system.

[JY9024]

I wouldn't be to concerned about command failures or passes at KA, or if the training department has a "check only" mentality. This airline's upper management seems on the surface to have no idea on how to run a successful airline in a competitive market. As mentioned before, KA has become a profitable company only due to a protected route structure, something that it is loosing control of very quickly. Management seem to concentrate on cutting costs only instead of expanding to new destinations and making the most of Asia's massive growth potential. Every day you pick up a newspaper there seems to be another airline invading our destinations and intern, sucking up our growth potential. They seem to have this mentality that if we cant make a profit on that route on the first day, then we wont do it. BA has just started daily Pudong and are prepared to run at a loss for three years before they can produce a profit for years into the future. That's forward planning on BA's behalf, something KA doesn't have. We have been planning to start SYD services and have ordered the aircraft to do it, but at this stage no start date has been announced, apparently it was due to start in October this year. We have just closed our office in Puket, we were the only airline to fly direct, I'm sure some other carrier will start daily returns and make it a success. I guess the point that im trying to get across is that from the outside it seems KA doesn't have a bright future in our current position, unless we have a major management restructure or at least a change of thought. You may think that I'm just another management basher but the thing is, that in the four years that I've been here, I've never heard from our CEO or anyone from his department one what we as a company has planed into the future. I just hope that someone up there on the 5th floor, does infact have a plan!!!

[A4G]

KA is not a pleasant place to work. It has certainly deteriorated over the last few years. Staff morale has plummetted. It would appear we have the budget/bonus system in place for managers and this has resulted in a constant attack on the COS etc etc etc. This system was disbanded in some other countries years ago because of the end increase in overall costs from this type of management. Sadly KA believe their training is a world beater and this is partly a result of the lack of overall management exposure to other operations and an unfaounded belief in the current system. Someone doing a command at any airline within 18 months can expect close scrutiny and a fairly intense course but KA unfortunately don't support a candidate before or during a course. Instead barriers and hurdles are put in place and if not cleared then out you go. No retraining or discussion just go away and come back in a year. Their are no come backs on the training department or trainers. No checking to see what might have helped or what we could have done better. Guys are getting things thrown at them on their command sims they've never seen before or had any training in!!! Most disturbingly a lot of guys on the command go down on the last day in the sim. So the whole exercise has been a waste of time for the candidate not to mention the stress and waste of $$$$$ for the company. This situation should be addressed as soon as possible.

[Feather Boa]

AnQrKa A4G

Guys, Why so much focus on the command courses? If the company doesn't change tack and start looking at future planning and areas to which it can expand, THERE WILL BE NO COMMAND COURSES!
I feel for some of the guys that haven't got through, but the system wont change because some guys are seen to be hard done by.

I stand by my previous statement, some are successful and some aren't, and it wont change.
We should all be more concerned with the direction the company is going!

Fx