CPL and IR requirements???

[rons22]

Hello

could someone tell me how realistic is it to get CPL in 150 hours?

Also, what is the requirement for IR rating in term of hours and how much does it cost on average?

Could CPL and IR training be combined?
I am sking this questions because of JAA requirements and would welcome advice from anyone who did the training recently?

Many thanks,
Ron

[Blinkz]

check out LASORS for the requirements of any of the licences, and also use the search button on the forum to see if your questions been answered, as usually someone at sometime has talked about!

[Charlie Zulu]

I'll try and answer these...

JAA CPL and JAA IR training cannot be combined.

They can be done one after the other.

If you have a JAA CPL already then your JAA IR course will be 50 hours instead of 55 hours for a non-CPL holder.

Reality in obtaining a JAA CPL in 150 hours? NONE. None whatsoever.

The reason? You require at least 150 hours total time including 100 hours of P1 to START the JAA CPL course. The course itself is 25 hours.

For licence issue, you will require at least 200 hours total time including the JAA CPL course and flight test passed.

Don't forget that before you start the JAA CPL or IR course you will need to have passed the JAA ATPL (or CPL) writtens exams.

[Keygrip]

rons - please forgive the response from Charlie Zulu - and then ignore it. A well intentioned PPL response, for sure - but bad answers.

You can take the IR and CPL together - it's called "Integrated training". It costs more money - but you can do it.

He also didn't tell you that if you do the IR first - you get a 10 hour credit from the CPL (so cheaper - and, arguably, easier and quicker).

Despite having told him before - you do NOT need 100 hours of P1 to start the training course for the CPL. You do need the 150 total (if going the modular way) but you do not need any specific time in command to start the course - you only need it for licence issue.

Nor do you have to have passes in CPL or ATPL subjects to start an IR course. Probably a good idea - and very likely the best way forward - but the statement is incorrect.

[Charlie Zulu]

Hi Keygrip,

Yes it was a well intentional response and I do apologise for being wrong.

I chose to ignore the Integrated method as the question was worded in such as way that I thought modular was the route they were thinking about. Integrating the CPL and IR also integrates the groundschool and takes someone with no experience up to CPL/IR level in something less than 200 hours (I don't know exactly as its been 8 years since I looked at Integrated training).

One of our group members is starting his modular CPL course and he has been asked by the schools he has approached to obtain the 100 Hours P1 / 150 Hours Total before starting his CPL course, thus I thought it was a requirement (should have looked at Lasors, shouldn't I?)

So you can start the JAA IR training without the passes in either the JAA ATPL or JAA IR exams first? Of course no matter what, it would be prudent to have the passes under your belt before starting the training as surely the required exam passes must be obtained before undertaking the skills test for either the JAA CPL or JAA IR? I should have written the passes should be obtained before the skills test... or is this incorrect as well and its only when you actually apply for the licence to be issued?

I've had a lack of sleep I am afraid, night shift... thus my reply above. No excuse though, sorry.

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[Simon_Sez]

Rons,

A lot of UK modular schools (and from September, PTC, Ireland) are doing a combined Multi-CPL & IR course. It usually works out cheaper than the traditional IR which often involves the relatively pointless hours in a single engine complex such as the Arrow etc. (Yes it can be good for transition to the twin, but why not fly a complex during your hour building instead?)
It also means you end up with more valuable Multi hours, up to 70 if you can afford it(!), but realistically 30/35 is common.

Anyway, in relation to your original question:

Requirements for ISSUE of CPL:

Valid PPL & Medical obviously, plus:

Integrated: 150 hours total time - 70 hours PIC.
Modular: 200 hours total time - 100 hours PIC.

Requirements for ISSUE of an IR:

IR Theory Exams passed.

Same requirements for Integrated & Modular:

Single IR:

50 hours of which 20 may be in an FNPT I or 35 in an FNPT II.

Multi-IR:

Without a CPL: 55 hours of which 25 may be in an FNPT I or 40 in an FNPT II.

With a CPL: 50 hours but since "At least 15 hours must be in the category of multi-engine aircraft for which the IR is sought", max FNPT II time is 35 hours, instead of 40.

Cost wise, between EUR16,000 & EUR19,000 for Modular. I don't know about Integrated.

I've purposely left out cross-country and night time in relation to the above but if I've forgotten anything vital, I apologise in advance.

Hope this helps,

Simon.

[Keygrip]

So you can start the JAA IR training without the passes in either the JAA ATPL or JAA IR exams first?
No - that's not what I said - I said you don't need passes in ATPL or CPL to start training for the IR - but you would need a pass in the IR exams.

Fair enough - if you intend to go on for CPL training as well, then it would be crazy to do the IR exams on their own and then repeat everything for the CPL - but you can start the IR without CPL/ATPL groundschool (ask all those guys with PPL/IR's).

CZ - apologies if I came on a bit strong - same deal - late night etc. etc. Sorry.

[rons22]

thanks for the answers guys

[likair]

I know anyone can confirm my query...

The pre requirement to start a JAA CPL;
"...Before commencing a JAR-FCL CPL(A) approved modular course an applicant shall be the holder of a PPL(A) issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1. Prior to commencing the flight training an applicant shall have completed 150 hours of flight time as a pilot..."

If an ICAO FAA PPL(A) is obtained in the US with 150 hours hour building, can anyone start the JAA CPL? Or those 150hours must be done in a JAA country? :confused:

What does the ICAO Annex1 state?

Thanks for your attention and hope someone can clarify my confusion...

L|kA|r

[Keygrip]

likair - you may start the course with the FAA hours - they don't have to be JAA hours.

One thing worth watching though (if relevant to any individual situation) - if any of those FAA hours are logged P1, as "Safety Pilot" on a single crew aircraft, then the hours may be discounted when the CPL application is made - and that may mean the CPL application is rejected.

[likair]

Thanks Keygrip for your post...

On The LASORS 2005 Section A Page 5 under Modular Courses,
Commercial Pilot Licence (Aeroplane)Modular Course, it states that, "...an applicant shall have completed 150 hours of flight time as a pilot..."

Doesn't that mean that the hours (in this case FAA hours) must be logged as P1?

Whats the definetion of "Saftey Pilot", Pilot on Command?
And what should they have been logged?

Thanks for your attenion...

L|kA|r

[grobhead]

A twist on the same question.

How many hours are required to START the CPL Modular training with an approved training organisation.

I know that 200 hrs total and 100 hrs P1 are needed to take the test but how many hours are required to commence training??

[Keygrip]

grobhead - NO - you do not the the hours you quote to take the test. You need those hours to APPLY for the licence.

The only hours requirement for starting training is a TOTAL TIME of 150 hours, made up of anything - P1, Dual, everything.

There is no P1 requirement to start the training.

likair - as I say above, the 150 hours is TOTAL time, including dual training flights.

What I was eluding to is the "hour building system" used by those who wish to cheat, whereby they, and a second pilot, rent an aircraft between them (and pay half of the rental costs each - thus reducing the price of the flying for each person).

One pilot then (at least in theory) flies the aircraft "under the hood' (simulated instrument flying) whilst the other pilot acts as "safety pilot" and looks out of the window to ensure they don't crash if the instrument guy gets it wrong.

Under the FAA system - both pilots can log the time as P1 (Commander of the aircraft).

Under JAA - they cannot - and if the licence issuing authority discovers this type of hour building has been going on (and they have done so in the past) then all those hours may be discounted and may give the applicant less than the 200 hours total required for licence issue - so it gets rejected.

[grobhead]

Keygrip,
many thanks for the reply and thank you for the correction.



The only hours requirement for starting training is a TOTAL TIME of 150 hours, made up of anything - P1, Dual, everything.

In trawling through the JAR regs, this too is the only reference I can find to the hours requirement but my problem is that the FTO that I am considering using are stating that I need 150 hrs total of which 100 must be P1, correctly pointing out that I will ultimately need 200/100 to apply for the license

Is there discretion allowed by JAR for the FTO to impose a more stringent hours requirement before they will allow a student to begin??

Many thanks

[redbar1]

Grobhead,
An FTO (or any other training organisation, or AOC holder for that matter) are fully at liberty to use experience requirements higher than JAR-FCL (or JAR-OPS, or any other JAR).
Cheers, RedBar1

[grobhead]

Many thanks rebbar1 - that explains everything