Extra flying hours - sharp practice or what?

[porridge]

It has come to my attention that some FTO's have a system whereby clients are reviewed and then are required to fly extra hours to meet 'standards' as a matter of course. I get the impression that the client is quoted a fixed price for a course, but with a codicil that says at the discretion of the company, due to the person not making required standards that more hours must be flown. Whilst I agree that some people may need to do a 'little' extra I get the impression that marketing sells the course at an absolute minimum to make the package look attractive, but then with the full knowledge of the company there is a system in force that make the client cough up more money whether they need the extra hours or not. As it likely the individual doesn’t know any better, then it would predispose the client may be none the wiser to whether they have paid for hours that they may not have had to have flown.
I would be curious to know how widespread this practice is and whether anyone out there has been a victim of this kind of practise. If you have had this kind of experience I would be grateful if you could either post your comments or PM me as I am considering writing an article around this subject for the GA press.
Thanks, Porridge

[Mordacai]

I don't have any problem with this practice provided the school uses a clearly defined set of standards which are made clear to the student at the start of the course, as well as a defined procedure for rectifying problems that may arise. All FTO'S should have, in their operations manual, a set procedure for dealing with such situations.

At my school for instance, our operations manual, which all students must read and sign, clearly states the standards which much be achieved for each lesson in the syllabus. The student is reminded of these standards, and advised of the reason for these standards before the flight is undertaken.

Here is a rough outline of our procedure.

If the main objective of a flight is not completed to standard, the lesson must be repeated before moving on to the next lesson. The student will be advised what was not to standard, why it was not to standard, and suggestions given as to how to fix it. The instructor must inform the CFI, and obtain his signature for the student records.

The day before the repeat flight the student will be thoroughly re-briefed, and given an opportunity to ask questions. On the day of the flight the instuctor will brief the student, and question the student to ensure an acceptable level of understanding exists. The student will be given an opporunity to ask questions. During the flight the instructor will re- demonstrate, and give the student the opportunity to ask questions.

If the student is still unable to complete the lesson to standard, the CFI will be informed. The student will be thoroughly de-briefed, and then re-briefed under the supervision of the CFI. If after a second repeat, the lesson is still not completed to standard, a further evaluation flight will take place with the CFI, head of training, or his appointed deputy. A review meeting will then take place to discuss the situation.

No student should have to undertake further training without understanding the reasons, and without a plan in place to rectify the situation.

Here is my CFI's favourite quote;

'My granny could tell you that was wrong - our job is to tell you why it was wrong, and how you can fix it'.

All students learn differently, and at a different pace. The best method of instruction is the 'building block' method, where each 'block' of skill or knowledge must be firmly in place before the next block is placed on top. It would be a breach of faith to you and the wider public as a whole to continue with a course of training when fundamentals cannot be demonstrated to standard.

As far as course prices are concerned, well I'm sorry to have to tell you the brutal truth, all prices are given based on the CAA minimums for licence issue. If the student is unable to complete the course in that time, guess what, it's going to cost more. Sorry.

M

[Gin Slinger]

Whatever you agreement you come to with your flight school, you must remember ultimately you are training to pass a CAA flight test, so don't be surprised if require extra flights to meet the standard.

[clarityinthemurk]

The scenario outlined by M is admirable, but rare. How many students actually read their school’s ops manual even if asked to sign it, especially if it looks like a couple of hundred pages of verbiage. Such documentation’s primary purpose is getting the school its JAA training approval, and can bear little relationship to the practical training situation. Essentially, it’s just a bureaucratic sham.

As for “extra training”, it is amazing that flight schools can continue to get away with advertising on the basis of minimum hours when only a small proportion of individuals actually achieve this. This is fundamentally fraudulent advertising, creating false expectations, yet no-one seems to take any action on it.

It should be remembered that flying training is a two-sided thing, and that while students will vary in ability, so too will instructors. The fact that many instructors do not have the required teaching skills will inevitably lead to extra cost and time for the student. Of course this results in extra money for the school, so there is no incentive to improve on what is in effect an institutionalised racket. This is especially the case for the more experienced who should be well used to addressing new flying skills.

[BEagle]

But to attract really high quality, very experienced FIs who do have proven teaching skills would require FTOs to offer similar salaries to those available in the airlines. And that just ain't going to happen until the airlines start really squealing for pilots in large numbers again.

At which point the experienced FI who doesn't really want to spend his days locked in a cupboard with a stranger 2 hours at a time, 4 times daily, 4 times per week is going to say "OK - I'll come and instruct for you. Mon-Fri, 9 to 5 and it'll cost you £80K per annum plus health insurance, pension and loss of licence insurance!" Even I might consider that....

I asked the bosses of a couple of well-known FTOs when they last had an ex-RAF QFI apply to work for them. "Over 10 years ago" was what they both said - although one did say that an A2 QHI had recently shown some interest - but the diffrence between salary offered and salary expected was over £10K.

[Alex Whittingham]

....but there are many very competent civvy FIs who are currently being kept away from the airlines with salaries of £30K to £38K. Quality of life in airline employment is so degraded that flight instruction is starting to look attractive. Ok, you get paid a little less but you go home every night.

The RAF has its share of poor instructors, including several A2s that I wouldn't give the time of day to.

[Maude Charlee]

The real sharp practice comes from schools where students are signed off as ready for each progress test, even though they haven't accumulated the neccessary split of hours as laid down by the school for internal tests, but where they have achieved the neccessary total hours. Students are then informed at the end of their training that licences can't be issued until the student has accumulated the neccessary minimums in all categories, eg P1. The school now has the student firmly by the short and curlies and is able to extract several hundred pounds in extra revenue for additional flying resulting from shoddy admin.

[Farrell]

Have to agree with Alex on that one. I know regional pilots who are thinking about jacking it in. In fact, out of a certain group of airline captains that I teach English to.....over half of them are divorced.

The reason......big paycheck going home....pilot not at home....bored wife spending big paycheck.....shopping rush gets boring after a few months.....and all of a sudden, the son's best mate is looking HOT today!!

Insecurity breeds insecurity and pilot hits the hay with 19 year old 'Jasmine'........and it all spiral dives from there.

Give me a flying job where I can go home each evening and eat with my family and tend to their needs over a medium / long haul job any day!

[clarityinthemurk]

A couple of other points……

How do the training aircraft affect student learning? If badly rigged, with instrumentation that is clearly not functioning correctly, dodgy radios, non-standard instrument layout, have been bashed onto the tarmac just one too many times, then rate of learning will certainly be affected. While subject to periodic maintenance, very many schools stretch the envelope when it comes to what is “acceptable”. Again, the impact is on the student who is subjected to adverse learning conditions, perhaps at a stage of training when not ready for them. So the school achieves a double whammy – the student pays for extra hours due to “slow” learning, while the school lines its pockets by skimping on maintenance costs.

How do multiple changes of instructor, often to suit a school’s other needs, affect progress? Commonly there can be little hand-over communication between different instructors for the same student on different days. Result – extra hours needed to demonstrate to the new instructor items already satisfactorily learnt on previous flights. The school earns more money.

Systematic exploitation and abuse of customers may not be too strong a description for what goes on

[pointedinfinity]

I had the dubious pleasure of attending a school operating as outlined. I and others thought at the time that the system in place was pretty lopsided. It is open to patronising arrogance in the way it is carried out. This even comes through from the post from Moradacai. My best advise would be to ask about this when looking at schools, or reading their blurb, and if this is evident, go elsewhere.

[Frank Furillo]

Interesting this topic, I have had the pleasure of having Moradacai as my instructor, he is not an asshole, I did complete my CPL first time, I did not do it in minimum hours and would love to meet anybody who can prove that they did!
The CPL is very bloody hard you have to put a lot of work in,
Not everybody can learn at the same rate, I have no problems with my school, if anybody wants to talk to me please feel free to PM me.
FF

[RLM]

I've been to a few schools by now. And I see how some places are using that system to earn more money.
One school didn't tell me anything about what I was going to do in the plane. It was down to me to read that in Trevor Thom Book number one. There was no pre-flight brief and max 2 minutes of "this was wrong, we need to do another flight and read it again". I only flew once there.
Another school, where I ended up taking most of my training, was teaching me what I was going to do, how to do it, and about common errors. Also it became very clear before the flight what the CAA required of me to pass.
Apart from that I was given a plan with every lesson and time it would take, all added up so that I could see the minimum hour requirements.
I took my CPL with 1.5 hour extra and I know for sure what I did wrong. Some of the smaller errors, was not corrected on an extra flight, but with the current lesson extended slightly or implemented in the next flight.
I'm now using the same method teaching others and am honestly not working for the hours. The school I'm working for are having a good flow of students, so when one is finished, the next one is there shortly after. The hours is building up at a good pace and I haven't had anyone fail a checkride (PPL, CPL) (knock on wood, fingers X'ed etc. ;o) I've had 2 partials though, but both of them came and thanked me for their results either way.

As of Mordacai's post earlier. I don't find it arrogant, it's more a description of the way things should be done. More pilots would fly better, safer and pass their checkrides first time.

Thanks Rene

[parris60]

If your spending over 600 pounds on a cpl test then I think it makes perfect sense to make sure you are up to standard. If you dont do well on a certain part of the course then you will want to make sure you get it right on the test and the only way to do that is spend a few more dollars on another lesson and nail the problem. I to am being tought by M and I think his teaching is second to none. If he says that i need some more work on something then so be it. Its far more cheeper than a re-test and having to line the nice guys at the CAA with more money!