are jets more difficult to fly than Tprops

[rons22]

Is there a big difference in flyinh jets comparing to turboprops? Apart from spool-up time? Would welcome any pros/cons?

Thank you!
Ron

[PieterPan]

Ron,

Though I'm not very qualified to anwer the question, you can try doing a search right here at pprune, "difference jet prop":

Have a look at this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141453&highlight=difference+jet+prop) or this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76664&highlight=difference+jet+prop) or this one (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10312&highlight=difference+jet+prop).

Kind regards,
PieterPan

[Rainboe]

You adapt to what you're flying and fly it the way it needs to be flown. They are different, but the differences don't make one or the other harder to fly. When flying one, there is no need to fear moving to the other- you just learn new ways. I have gone from a 747 to a 748 (and back again). Lots of fun- no problem.

[18-Wheeler]

Going from a piston, I'd have to say flying a jet is easier than a turboprop because that's what I did.
I've only flown Garretts, and once you get used to them they're easy-as, but jets are dead simple.
They all have their little quirks though.

[PAXboy]

(Non pilot speaking) Think about the question: If you ride a motorbike to work and a car at weekends - is one easier to drive than the other?

If you ride a bicycle to work and a motorbike at weekends - is one easier to ride than the other?

It's the same, only different!

[tinpis]

Tin has had the misfortune to crew with people that couldnt fly either :p

[Stone Cold]

I have just moved from the ATR to the B737 and did my first flight in the 737 the other day and found it a lot easier to fly than the ATR, the hardest thing in the jet is to loose height and speed at the same time.

[Dudley]

Well... the main difference between flying a TurboProp and a Jet is your payslip every month!
More likely if you fly a turboprop it will be a lot less to do the same job...

Funny industry sometimes!

[Hanna Reitsch]

Or some might say - It's the differerence between driving a screw into a block of wood and balancing a ping pong ball on a jet of air.

Spool up schmool up - nowadays.

Hanna.

[Old Smokey]

Conversion from one aeroplane to another is always a time of increased difficulty, but having converted, there's no significant increase in difficulty in flying a jet aircraft over flying a propeller aircraft. There are certainly fundamental differences to re-learn, but having learned them executing the different techniques is no more difficult than for the prop aircraft (For example you might find that if low on an ILS approach a hand full of thrust might give you a totally different effect that a handful of power).

Actually, there's a lot of bluff involved, jet pilots usually manage to convince prop pilots that jets are extraordinarily difficult to fly. Having overcome the propaganda and found that they're not, phase 2 of the bluff is that wide bodys are infinetly more difficult, which of course they're not (much easier in fact). Phase 3 of the bluff then advocates that long haul flying requires you to be propelled into the astronaut league, whereas the only really difficult part is staying awake.

Can't wait for phase 4, whatever that may be. I guess that the white gloves shops are doing a roaring trade from the would-be A380 pilots.

Regards,

Old Smokey

[LEM]

The main difference is that with props you don't need to think to plan your descent, you can descent on a constant 3 degrees glide all the way to touchdown, or you can dive if you need, or you can slow down on the glide simply by advancing the condition levers forward.
It's like driving a car with brakes.

On jets, you need to plan your descent, allowing for a level segment before intercepting the glide, or smilar...
It takes some thinking and experience to do it right, especially when they are keeping you high... you must find the most elegant way to loose altitude.
Drop the rubber brakes? Shake the airplane with speedbrakes? Extending flaps fully? Exactly when?
Jets burn a lot at low altitudes, and you don't want to increase too much your drag and then having to increase power for a level segment at 3000 ft for 10 miles....
It's like driving a car without brakes, you must think ahead to use your engine to slow down before a turn.

For all other details, buy Handling the big jets.
Cheers
LEM

[haughtney1]

A recurring phrase that keeps coming up in line training is ..energy management. I think the biggest step up from a T/P to a jet that Ive noticed is the whole descent planning phase..in a T/P you just wind back the torque..wind up the Prop..and the props braking effect gets you out of jail, in a jet its a case of using a higher speed, and then bleeding that energy off by slowing down at the required point...the trick is where do I start to slow down???...Im still working on it!

Overall there are subtle differences...a swept wing behaves differently, and is far more sensitive to a cross wind, intertia in the approach phase makes the heavier jet easier to handle and anticipate in comparison to a smaller T/P. I cant honestly say Ive found one harder than the other......460kts Vs 240kts..is a mental barrier, but once you get the idea..its just different.

Hope this adds to the thread.

Cheers

H

:ok:

[Old Smokey]

460kts Vs 240kts

I once converted a Mirage pilot (Mach 2+) on to a Jetstream (240 Kt) and his reply to my remark of "Wow that must have been something"-

"It's only a number on a dial".

Old Smokey

[rons22]

Thank you for replies and honest opinion about the differences!

[Loose rivets]

A long time ago, at a UK airfield used for training–a lot, several old hands were being converted onto a shiny new jet. Most were off turbo-props, some had even flown through the war. All of them had never flown a jet transport before.

The training captain used to say ‘Engine failure...nail that speed. DON'T let it build up.'

The old hands used to say. ‘I like to get a bit of speed under my belt. . Don't like all that blue sky in the windshield....always gone over the book figure. Feels safer...must be the.right thing to do'

And one day, one of them let the speed build up, just as he had always done throughout his career. On landing, an engineer brought them a bunch of foliage from the undercarriage doors.

That evening, after a nice dinner, the two captains set out for a walk, armed with a map. For some considerable time, they contrived to follow the delightful countryside--along the extended centerline of the runway. Just as they were about to give up, they spotted a tree and it was damaged. The foliage matched.

It was four miles from the rotation point.

Anecdotal? Remember this tale anyone?

[esreverlluf]

E=1/2 mv^2

sums it all up, whatever the poweplant.

[Ignition Override]

There are certainly wider ranges of weights, airspeeds, climb and descent speeds, fuel burn ( :( ) :O etc. But compressed enroute times and high speeds+descent rates ("..another airport with no ATIS on ACARS". :rolleyes:..) can create many rushed scenarios. Flight attendants ringing the chime to request two extra wheelchairs and other distractions also multiply this impression until we do it for years around bad weather while complying with multiple vectors+altitudes, to name just a few things ("did we finish, or even BEGIN, reading the "Decent Checklist"? ..."why is the cabin still at 5,000' msl..?" :) ).

Years ago, a Captain called me at home while awaiting the date for his simulator type ride, and was curious as to what my Check Airman gave me on my type ride (back then, a long ride, almost four hours :ugh: ). He was a bit concerned about his partner, a new-hire FO who had flown recips and turboprops for years-but no jet.
His FO was having a very difficult time forcing herself to rotate to a normal takeoff pitch attitude of about 15-18 degrees. I would think that they used some sort of extra takeoff training to help erase her hard-headed fears, convince her that the airplane will fly, and assume that she passed her first Initial Training at the company ok. These fears must originate somewhere in one's background. If one Instructor Pilot has a problem, then another instructor can often have more luck getting through to someone. This company (and I mean everyone involved) does a wonderful job trying to train people.

[FougaMagister]

Old Smokey - while I was Cabin Crew way back in 1999, I once jumpseated a return leg on a Monarch A300-600R from MAH. Talking to the FO, I learned that his previous job was flying a Jetstream 31/32 (19 seats) in the Highlands. When I said the transition to the Airbus A300-600R (361 PAX and about 170 tons) must have been something, he just shrugged and said:"it's just another plane..." :ok:

[jbayfan]

The biggest difference between flying a jet and turboprop is the ability to reduce speed in the jet, and therefore the need for descent planning. Other factors that will contribute to differences will be underslung engines (B737 etc.), weight (B747 has huge momentum but C500 almost none) and the thrust to weight ratio. These are the biggest differences I have found.

[MrBernoulli]

Reducing speed and planning your descent have been mentioned several times here. Don't forget that with the larger jets you need to give yourself 'room to manoeuvre'. Don't attempt to 'attack' IF approaches or rwy centreline withoutgiving yourself room to comfortably turn. Passengers in particular (never mind company/aircraft restrictions) get twitchy if the horizon disappears from view out of their side windows!

[Jason2000]

I think to answer the initital question....just look at how pilots go about their training....single-prop PA28-type with 160hp then a twin prop, a sim ride and then a 737. It's a bit like getting a nice big 7-series after learning to drive in a Suzuki Swift or something I guess.

[catchup]

And...

the ignition key is gone.

regards

[Kaptin M]

Besides the points already mentioned, one of the biggest hurdles I remember were the much shorter stage times on flights ie. the time between one waypoint and the next, which meant having to speed the thought processes up to stay ahead of the aeroplane.
I think my brain finally caught up with my a_hole after about 6 weeks, during the initial jet conversion (from F27 to DC9).

The extra honeys down the back were another distraction that compounded the conversion.
(That might be the Phase 4 Old Smokey is looking for - can you imagine the variety on an A380 := )

[barit1]

"You ain't been lost, until you been lost at Mach 3"

[Ignition Override]

Barit 1: the guy ("fast Eddie") who set the "official ;)" speed record in the SR-71, described on a plaque at Dulles (IAD), flew several times with me as FO. He went from the SR to flying VIPS around in a Gulfstream III from Andrews AFB.

About his record flight, he is a nice, humble guy.