View Full Version : Where has the R44 thread GONE?


Vfrpilotpb
10th May 2005, 07:29
We had an excellent thread going, has it crossed some boundary of legality that has forced it off the airwaves??

Vfr



Whirlybird
10th May 2005, 08:31
Maybe its initiator decided he had made his point, but didn't like the way things were going. the person who starts a thread can always delete it. If it had been me, I think I'd have done that. Shame though. :(

TheFlyingSquirrel
10th May 2005, 08:40
You say that Whirly, but many regulars put a lot of time and effort into that post - why did they bother?

Whirlybird
10th May 2005, 10:08
I agree, FlyingSquirrel. But would you personally have put up with the tone of PPF1's comments? I'm not sure I would, if they'd been aimed at me. And then when someone started questioning the wisdom of being that truthful publicly, and would legal action be possible? Maybe the thread's originator had had enough. Or maybe there's another reason, who knows? Like I said, it's a shame, but understandable.

bladewashout
10th May 2005, 10:19
Could the question of liability and insurance have come into his decision? a/c wasn't damaged as far as I recall.

Some contributors could take note of the style used in formal air accident reports which do not apportion blame but seek to establish the facts. Many of the points made would have been perfectly acceptable if put appropriately.

It was a very good thread, and I will certainly be considering it next take-off...

BW

TheFlyingSquirrel
10th May 2005, 10:56
I was frustrated becauase I went to take the laptop somewhere quiet to read the whole thread again from start to finish to try to absorb some of the points made - and it was gone !!

PPRUNE FAN#1
10th May 2005, 14:46
Hmm. I hadn't considered that Raven might've pulled it, but I guess that makes sense. He was probably proud of that incredible, dramatic save, and probably told the student flying with him that day (and other students as well) about the post, only to have some of us go, "Err, excuse me but..." So he was probably pretty embarassed. That's the trouble with self-disclosure: it's a two-way street.

I have, unfortunately, sat on a number of post-accident review boards in my time. In a lot of cases, the pilot was the primary causal factor. The worst thing for me is to face a pilot who doesn't know what he did wrong, and won't acknowledge what he did wrong, and isn't sorry that he did anything wrong. In a lot of cases we have asked, "If you had it to do over again, what would you do differently?" Sadly, we are often met with a blank stare and the puzzled-sounding answer, "Nothing." Ouch.

I know a lot of people thought the thread was very informative, and I thought it was too.

puntosaurus
10th May 2005, 16:03
But you didn't go "Err, excuse me but..." did you ? You sharpened your most withering pen and rushed to judgement. Your opening sentence practically brimmed over with glee at the the prospect of the vitriol you were about to heap down from on high.

Could you acknowledge the possibility that your style of criticism might have some role in the obdurate reactions you see in accident boards ?

The important issues underlying your post could have been gently teased out through a few open ended questions, and your points much better made kindly.

farmpilot
10th May 2005, 16:16
And still had this very informative thread running.......?

PPRUNE FAN#1
10th May 2005, 16:44
Puntosaurus:But you didn't go "Err, excuse me but..." did you ? You sharpened your most withering pen and rushed to judgement. Your opening sentence practically brimmed over with glee at the the prospect of the vitriol you were about to heap down from on high.Heyyyyyyyy, shoot the messenger much?

If you blokes want dry reading, try FLYING Magazine! Or, come to think of it, just keep reading PPRUNE, the most boring, useless, silly, self-important and yet irrelevant aviation extant.

pilotwolf
10th May 2005, 17:13
...PPRUNE, the most boring, useless, silly, self-important and yet irrelevant aviation extant.

And as a memeber I trust you re including yourself and your posts within that statement? ;)

PW

bladewashout
10th May 2005, 17:43
I have actually found most of the original thread now in my history files - nothing's ever truly lost on a computer! I found the thread useful, irrespective of any judgements others might make over the facts.

Given an hour or so, I could probably reconstruct it in some form if people think it would not be a breach of pprune etiquette to re-start the thread, or (if it's acceptable generally) I can let people have a copy to review and file away in their private 'must remember this stuff' part of the memory.

Moderator?

I'll await a couple of flames to fall into the thread before putting anything up - I can be certain people will let me know exactly what they think...
':ooh:'

BTW - If the thought is that I'm a sad b*st*rd and a geek, don't bother as my kids already made me aware of that...

BW

puntosaurus
10th May 2005, 17:58
Checkout this new thread - I Learned About Flying From That (ILAFFT).

It looks like the originator of the thread wanted it deleted (I don't blame him !) so we should probably respect his wishes.

But more importantly it turns out that PPRF#1 has a soul after all. Maybe if he was a little kinder to himself he'd find some room in his heart for others.

Aesir
10th May 2005, 18:26
PPRUNE FAN

I have, unfortunately, sat on a number of post-accident review boards in my time. In a lot of cases, the pilot was the primary causal factor. The worst thing for me is to face a pilot who doesn't know what he did wrong, and won't acknowledge what he did wrong, and isn't sorry that he did anything wrong. In a lot of cases we have asked, "If you had it to do over again, what would you do differently?" Sadly, we are often met with a blank stare and the puzzled-sounding answer, "Nothing." Ouch.

Your sentence above describes best yourself! If you had better people skills the maybe Raven wouldn´t have pulled his thread and people would have had the chance to learn from his occurrence.

So in hindsight what would you have done differently? Did YOU learn anything.

PPRUNE FAN#1
10th May 2005, 22:04
Aesir:So in hindsight what would you have done differently? Did YOU learn anything.No sir, Aesir! I mean, not that I didn't learn anything, but that I wouldn't have done anything differently. If I knew that the area surrounding the airport was not suitable for a forced-landing, I still would have back-taxied far enough so that I could have gotten some altitude/airspeed before turning away from the wind. That falls under Basic Helicopter Flying 101.

You know, it's so silly. Some dumb guy puts himself and his passenger(s) in a really precarious position (200 feet agl, away from the wind with no good forced-landing areas underneath him), then has the dreaded Bad Thing happen. But somehow (divine intervention?) he manages to pull off a dramatic and precarious "save." Nearly everyone hails him as a hero. Those of us who know better - which he should have as well - shake our collective heads and go, "Hey dumbass, consider yourself lucky." And then Mr. Superpilot goes, "B-b-but it wasn't *my* fault...it was ATC's fault! Yeah, that's it." ...And we're all supposed to nod in agreement and not say anything.

Maybe you geeks care more about the form of the response than the actual substance. Maybe decorum is more important to you people than anything else.

May God have mercy on your souls.

blave
10th May 2005, 22:55
"Fan#1" (thought you're not acting like it lately),

What we want is not to be called names (e.g. "geeks"), and to have a mutually respectful conversation that most people can benefit from. I am pretty sure that had you not stomped into the room with guns a-firin', the R44 thread would still be here (rather than having everyone search their browser caches to see what the link was, as I did yesterday).

Leave your high horse tied up outside, please.

Dave Blevins
(full of cowboy references today)

Say again s l o w l y
10th May 2005, 23:17
Obviously PPF#1 has never or will never make a mistake or error of judgement.

It seems as if the rest of us have the sense to say "There for the grace of god......" and the next time we go up, this thread may creep into the ol' subconcious.

That is the point of an open and honest blame-free culture that we in aviation are supposed to be embracing nowadays.

I've had to pull people up many times, but the only time they would get a full on hat off, stare at the axminster type of balling out, is if they continued to have done something daft after having been warned before, or if it was so unutterably idiotic it would defy the belief of any licensed pilot.

Raven did do something that in hindsight was a bit daft, but would he/she do it again? Surely that is the point.

It's the big bag of luck Vs. small bag of experience scenario. Everyone has done some silly stuff in their past (even you PPF) at least Raven has had the balls to mention it here so we can all learn, it's just a pity the thread has gone, since I certainly have gleaned some info from it.

bladewashout
10th May 2005, 23:30
PPF#1, do you think that by insulting someone as 'dumb' and 'dumbass', you are going to foster any kind of open discussion when people make mistakes?

It seems odd to me that when you have made so much of your experience and approach to safety, you don't consider as worthwhile the safety benefits of an open forum for contributing and discussing real emergencies.

If the people to whom sh*t happens (whether of their own making or otherwise) don't talk about these occurances, nobody gets the benefit of their experience. Part of the reason I believe other contributors questioned the decisions in a more controlled tone is so others don't get scared off from contributing. Plus it's just good manners.

The form of the response is as important as the content in the context of pursuing an open forum and opportunities to improve safety. You appear to care more about making the readers accept that this pilot was a dumbass than leaving open the opportunity for everyone else to learn about other issues in the future.

You have clearly made a decision to adopt an abrasive contribution approach. You are smart enough to know there is a risk that some members may decide it's not worth posting similar issues in future, simply for a quiet life away from contributors like yourself.

So whilst I value your questions and experience, I would ask you to understand that if you continue with the insulting tone, it is to the detriment of general aviation safety for the rest of the readers.

If safety really is as important to you as you say, and you take such care in the cockpit, why compromise safety by acting this way when you could help improve it simply by moderating your approach?

BW

Heli-Ice
11th May 2005, 02:02
Yeah, Pprune is boring, useless and silly and I figured that from reading all the crap posted here I guess Raven1 must have ran to his helicopter and tried to make all the mistakes he could get his hands on?

Since I logged in here for the first time I have done more stupid things than ever before, never did realize this until now.

PF#1. Thank you man for pointing this out to me, this is my last look at this web and now I will burn my computer and poke my eyes out! :rolleyes:

Cross-eyed
11th May 2005, 02:06
PPF#1 - the value of your experience and knowledge in response to Raven's "it's-not-my-fault" rationalization is drowned-out by the noise of your childish name-calling and casts a large shadow on your credibilty - which you clearly wanted to establish with your "quit counting at 10,000 hours" comment.

While you may have scared off Raven or anyone considering posting a revealing experience - and therefore a valuable safety debate - your posts offer an opportunity to discuss a more subtle factor in aviation safety - personality.

There are many qualifications and characteristics that make a safe pilot, experience being one. Others are less obvious but, in the eyes of those whose job is aviation safety, can be even more telling. An article in a commercial aviation magazine speaks of the importance of interpersonal skills to aviation safety. An ATP and former senior accident investigator for the NTSB, who now works as an aviation consultant in Denver says, "Personality needs to be considered on a level of importance right along with piloting skills. When you have a pilot with an angry, ticked-off personality, his world shrinks, and his viewpoint is narrowed before he even gets in the cockpit. That in itself is a weakness, and for every captain - who is the purveyor of safety - his persona becomes a liability." - Business and Commercial Aviation, November 2004.

Vfrpilotpb
11th May 2005, 06:25
PF#1,

I wonder if you would be so kind as to tell us how you got started in the world of flying Helicopters, if you would allow me to expand a little without trying to crush my question that is,

I got started pretty late in life, possibly you would say people like me should not fly, but I consider that we are all able to learn something new before we become brittle and uncaring enough not to bother, but, I paid for all my own lessons, and I further paid for all the many hours that I felt would make me able to fly as safely as I could,

I haven't had the benefit of any military service where it is quite possible to gain massive experience totally free of charge or even any financial risk whilst doing it right, or wrong.

Irrespective of your acerbic comments about the Pprune Rotorheads, I for one have asked some very difficult questions of unknown pilots and crew who spend a little of their time on this thread, I have used that information and found that most times they are absolutely spot on and in getting those sort of answers I have through this Forum seen and been able to identify many of the pitfall,s that only vast experience can teach you.

Many also know that we can all be acid tongued and act as Mr Gods left hand man, but sadly then people stop talking or passing information over.

I wish the original thread had not been pulled, for it was informative and showed the frailties of the normal human being,

Please Mr PPF#1 be kinder in your comments , lest you trip and fall onto your own sword

Peter Russell-Blackburn
Vfrpilotpb (get the handle, only in good daylight viz)
a simple willing to listen Vfr pilot PPL(H)

Whirlybird
11th May 2005, 08:42
PPF1,

Some dumb guy puts himself and his passenger(s) in a really precarious position (200 feet agl, away from the wind with no good forced-landing areas underneath him), then has the dreaded Bad Thing happen. But somehow (divine intervention?) he manages to pull off a dramatic and precarious "save." Nearly everyone hails him as a hero.

That is NOT what happened!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We don't have the thread here to verify it, so let me remind you....

Raven described precisely what occurred, what warnings he had...the clutch light coming on etc. He then told us exactly what happened. He didn't put any judgement on it, one way or the other; he just stated the facts. He didn't NEED to tell us of the warnings. He could have said it all happened suddenly. He had a golf course ahead, which represents a possible forced landing area, but he chose to turn back; well, that's his choice. Everyone walked away, due to his skill...and a certain amount of luck, yes, that's true.

Now, NO-ONE here hailed him as hero! We low hours pilots congratulated him on pulling off a forced landing that many off us weren't sure we could have done. Then Jellycopter pointed out that maybe he shouldn't have got into that position in the first place. I started to discuss press-on-itis, and the possible difficulty of calling off a commerial flight when you're not sure if there's anything seriously wrong, and no-one else thinks there is. All in all, it had the makings of an interesting discussion, one from which many of us felt we could learn.

Then what happens? YOU post. You don't just point out that an extremely experienced pilot wouldn't have taken off, which would be fine, and very useful and informative. You call people names, you put them down, you sneer at Raven and at all low hours pilots. You make a real point of mentioning your hours, and all your experience, and how you've survived, and how much more you know than the rest of us. Basically, you get on a massive ego trip and highjack the whole thread! And in doing so, you rob the rest of us of the chance of learning a great deal. Yes, that's what you did, PPF1! I don't expect you to admit it publicly; you're not big enough for that, but at least admit it to yourself!!!

I almost always try to make a point on PPRuNe of criticising the post, not the person. But I'm going to make an exception here. PPF1, I've had enough of your rudeness, your egotistical ramblings, your childishness and emotional immaturity, your attacks on others. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. Please either change (and you CAN!) or get back into retirement...and stay there!!!

helicopter-redeye
11th May 2005, 09:04
Well, I don't know about anybody else but that sure scared me.

:\

bladewashout
11th May 2005, 09:22
Redeye: Would it help if we all got together for a group hug? ':ooh:'

BW

helicopter-redeye
11th May 2005, 11:14
Well, I don't know about anybody else but THAT sure scared me

:O

Bravo73
11th May 2005, 12:39
Good to have you back, PPRUNE FAN #1. Always makes for interesting reading... :ok:

PPRUNE FAN#1
11th May 2005, 16:02
Oh Whirlychick. Missy, if anyone here is on an ego trip, it is most certainly YOU. Now, NO-ONE here hailed him as hero! We low hours pilots congratulated him on pulling off a forced landing that many off us weren't sure we could have done. Honey, maybe no one actually came out and called Raven a hero. But you could read it fairly dripping off the sycophantic posts such as yours. "Oooooh Raven! You're so big and strong and manly! A 180 auto from 200 feet!" Oh please. The swooning and fawning were making me sick.Basically, you get on a massive ego trip and highjack the whole thread! And in doing so, you rob the rest of us of the chance of learning a great deal. Yes, that's what you did, PPF1! I don't expect you to admit it publicly; you're not big enough for that, but at least admit it to yourself!!!I admit nothing of the sort! Me, hijack the thread? Get real. All I did was add a note of reality to was was rapidly becoming a love-fest like I haven't seen since my Haight-Ashbury days in the 60's. Sheesh! And honey, if you can't/won't learn from me, then you are unlearnable. And maybe unteachable. BTW, which low-time Whirly are you?I almost always try to make a point on PPRuNe of criticising the post, not the person.Here it comes...But I'm going to make an exception here. I knew it!PPF I've had enough of your rudeness, your egotistical ramblings, your childishness and emotional immaturity, your attacks on others. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. Please either change (and you CAN!) or get back into retirement...and stay there!!!Well! I've certainly been told off! And by such an authority!

Tell you what, sweetie. Just don't read any of my posts, mm-kay? In fact, why don't we agree to not read each other's posts? I promise not to read another word you write. In fact, I've already begun. Oh and please get over yourself. You're just not that important to PPRUNE.

Now, on to VFRpilotpb: wonder if you would be so kind as to tell us how you got started in the world of flying Helicopters, if you would allow me to expand a little without trying to crush my question that is,No.

I've gone over it all before. Try searching my old posts if you're extremely interested/bored.

And finally, cross-eyed?While you may have scared off Raven or anyone considering posting a revealing experience - and therefore a valuable safety debate - your posts offer an opportunity to discuss a more subtle factor in aviation safety - personality. Hey, spare me your amateur psychoanalizing, willya? In fact, analyze this.

FunkyMunky
11th May 2005, 16:19
Oh and please get over yourself. You're just not that important to PPRUNE.

Sorry to butt in on the discussion, but neither are you PF#1. Calling people "missy", "sweetie" and "honey" (she does have a name you know) with such arrogance seems pretty condascending to me :confused:. If it makes you sick FAN#1, why read it?

Discussion with hindsight is fair enough, but who are we to ostracise Raven for his actions, which he kindly told us about on here for others to learn from? I'm not surprised if he did pull the other thread.

helicopter-redeye
11th May 2005, 16:39
Don't give him (or her ??) the pleasure of getting annoyed.

If any posts need pulling it's this one.


:8 X-eye




A fine of ten magnum of Champaign to the next person to enter a post on this thread.

TheFlyingSquirrel
11th May 2005, 17:10
prune fan 1 - go and knock one out will you for fu**s sake and sort yourself out !

Whirlybird
11th May 2005, 17:46
PPF1,

I would be entirely happy not to read any of your posts. In fact I rarely do. I know from past experience that while you know a lot about helicopter flying, you're incapable of speaking to me without being condescending, rude, aggressive, sexist, childish, and totally illogical. Your interpretation of my comments to Raven,
"Oooooh Raven! You're so big and strong and manly! A 180 auto from 200 feet!" are just plain wrong, and are in your head, not mine. In fact, they prove what a screwed-up, bitter, nasty piece of work you really are!

So why am I reading your posts and responding to you? Because in this case I'm angry! You hijacked an extremely useful thread. It may have made YOU sick, but you'll have gathered from the posts that many of us found it useful. But you don't care about that, do you? You're far too selfish, far too stupid, and far too self-involved in your own pathetic little life to even notice what anyone thinks, or to allow that their point of view might be worthwhile. So that's why I'm reading your posts, that's why I'm complaining, and that's why I sincerely hope you go away and leave PPRuNe and never return!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But of course, you haven't read any of this, have you, so you can't reply. ;)

BossEyed
11th May 2005, 17:55
PPF No.1, I've been observing for a while and am happy to help you out here:

You're wrong.

Whirly's right.

Raven was honest in his/her post. Many people have learned and have much to think about from what he/she had to say.

Your loudly stated opinions may reduce the chance of this happening on this forum in the future, which cannot be to the benefit of flight safety.

Further deliberately patronising and offensive posts from you don't make you any less wrong.

Hope that clarifies things for you.
:*

Stringfellow Dork
11th May 2005, 18:13
PFNo.1 - You know a lot about flying helicopters but you could learn a lot more about communicating succesfully.

Please do so beacause you made many valuble points in your original post on the R44 thread which are now lost forever because (it would seem) of your tone. The points you made do not remain to be picked up in the future by some newbie to this forum. They will not learn from an experienced pilot who felt he had to say something (and rightly so) because he could not say it without offending. Safety will not improve. All your effort was for nothing...

The points you made on their own in that thread would have made anyone who was high-fiving his/her mates because of a successful 180 auto from 200 feet snap straight back into reality. I think you were right to say the things you did between the ego, slander and sexism on the R44 thread.

No one listens to critism mixed with the above qualites because it is impossible to respect anyone who uses them - so if anyone really thinks they have a point to make it is worth removing them from it's delivery. People listen to those they respect.

Consider this to be me saying "Er, excuse me but..." to you.

Knowing that your posts seem to have led to a very good thread being deleted that could have very concievably (although impossible to prove) improved the flying and awareness of those that would have read it, would you now do anything differently on this forum?

If you think not then you are of the same breed as those pilots who were on the safety board you mentioned previously...

autosync
11th May 2005, 18:53
Any thread that has PPF#1 gets a...............

http://spams-ukwildcatbasketball.com/best_thread_ever.mbe.gif

headsethair
11th May 2005, 20:25
PPF: Now it's going really well. No doubt people want to know who you are - don't worry I won't give it all away.

But, folks, just imagine the lovechild of Liberace and Peewee Herman.

imabell
12th May 2005, 03:39
i find it very hard to believe a 180 auto from 200 feet in an r44 having a problem in a climb out, not even cruise flight. surely it was a partial power descent????? r44's are great in auto but ???

if you knew it was going to happen then maybe, but a surprise, i doubt it.

then again, i guess if the clutch light was still on it was not a surprise.;)

212man
12th May 2005, 07:28
imabell,
I tend to agree; partial power. If you look at the full auto case it makes for some interesting maths! Not to say it was an easy exercise though.