To CPL or not to CPL? And and where??

[Krazy]

Hi all,

Please be easy on me - I'm new here...

I have had my PPL for about 6 years now but haven't done much with it unfortunately - I always find it more prudent to save money towards something else than go and enjoy myself flying. My passion for flying hasn't diminished though, and nothing in the world gives me more enjoyment than a few circiuts, or a trip over the Snowies (yes, simple pleasures, I know). I have always wanted to fly commercially, but my brain tends to over-ride my heart, and instead I have spent the last 8 years getting 2 degrees, and starting up a business. I want to get back into it now...

Am I too old at the age of nearly 26 to do a CPL part time and hope to get into the industry afterwards?

I'm currently in Canberra, where we are now left with only 1 flying school. Should I be looking elsewhere? Are Goulburn, Temora, or any other nearby towns serious options?

Your thoughts are much appreciated!

[Super Cecil]

You can continue if you have deep pockets, expect to keep paying right through to airlines. If your lucky the mob you continue training with will let you pay to work for them while washing the Aircraft and cleaning the bosses car.

After a couple of years sponsering a small operation you will pay for a turbine endorsment then pay to be "employed" by them. This process follows on to Airlines where after 10 years you will be earning as much as a taxi driver.

There are some GA jobs around with reasonable conditions, the way GA is headed they won't last long, sad, buts that the state of employment in GA. If you have a big supply of $$$ you could buy your own flying show and "lifestyle".

My advice stay out of GA and with the money you make out of employment outside aviation spend it on your own Aircraft and still enjoy your flying.

[Krazy]

Cecil - although I get the impression from elsewhere as well about what you're saying, what you're telling me also tells me that there must be an oversupply of commercial pilots in Australia? Is this true? Or is it just that pilots are getting screwed, even though they may be in heavy demand?

[slice]

Krazy - there is staggering oversupply of commercial pilots in this country. That, I beleive is the principle reason for such poor conditions of employment (Poor pay/ paying for endorsements etc.) Do not worry about the age issue unless it is Qantas you are aiming for. The main consideration is the money, time and energy that you will have to put in to get a result. You will almost certainly have to move to another part of the country to gain employment (usually somewhere ****ty) and after that you will have to have to move again(and maybe and again etc....). If you are single this bearable but otherwise forget it.

[scrambler]

Krazy, go for it man. Dont die wondering what if. If it doesnt work out, unlike alot of guys on here you have lots to fall back on. I did my CPL in my early 30's never looked back (Im flying GA and enjoying it) An old instructor of mine did his CPL at 30 and is now with Virgin, so there are opportunities out there. Yes be prepared to slug it out for a few years at crap pay but it may be worth it.

[Krazy]

Excuse my ignorance - but what do people mean when they say "flying GA"? Is that just the nice way of saying doing GA, ie., not doing anything for money?

And what about flying schools? Does anyone have any opinions of learning in Canberra (did my PPL elsewhere) vs. travelling up to say Camden for example?

EDIT - I'm not too concerned about earning crap pay for a while (I'm used to this after being a student for so long!), nor am I concerned about flying in whoop-whoop - that actually apeals to me!

[Towering Q]

Krazy...not quite sure what you are asking in your first question, but if it is "what is GA?" then I'll have a go.

If it's not Qantas, Virgin, Jet* etc, nor a Regional Airline, like Rex or Skywest for example, then it is probably GA.

This includes all charter operators, flying schools, RFDS, Coast Watch, the list goes on.

I'm with scrambler on this one. You'll never know if you don't give it a go.

[Krazy]

Thanks Towering - you answered my question :-)

Does one need to go in this the whole hog? Full time? Or is it reasonable to try to earn a living still and perhaps spend a day a week going for CPL? Or is that just not going to go anywhere? Keep in mind that I'm at ~100hours already, so I'm not starting from the absolute start...

Btw - I really appreciate all the quick advice coming my way :ok:

[Super Cecil]

If your going to do it and have the money then do it all at one hit, save you a few dollars and you will be ready for that job sooner.

[Boney]

If I was in your position mate, forget about doing it as a career. However if that is where your heart really is - well that's another story.

Buy yourself a nice machine (C-182RG/Arrow/Trinidad etc.) and work out a way to work it into your business so you can use those scumbags down the road in Canberra to help with those expensive 100hrly's via tax. Then you can afford the best of both worlds.

One thing alot of private pilots don't realise is, generally speaking, the only nice GA aircraft in this country are privately owned ones. 90% of working piston aircraft in Oz are, yes, legally airworthy, but buckets of $hit - I know 'cause I fly 'em. The majority rolled out of a factory during the time the Beatles were still making music and have been flogged ever since.

And you will be flying these things if you choose a career, in bad weather/ night etc and paid the same or less money than a cleaner for the priveledge. If you are unlucky to have an unreasonable boss, he/she won't understand it is very difficult to operate effectively with out-dated, worn out equipment.

Imagine trying to run a taxi company with HQ Holdens and XW Falcons. Can become very frustrating for all concerned - funny how it is often the pilot though that is "crunt of the month" because of it.

But there are some good people out there to work for - am currently working at a company where pretty much none of the above occurs but still, the newest piston twin is a 1970 model.

Think long and hard - hey, we might see you on here whinging like the rest of us in a few years but don't say we didn't warn ya!

[What time is ECT?]

If you search PPRuNe, you will find many others who have had to make the full-time/part-time and go/no-go option.

I have just qualified as a shiny new CPL. I have worked at it part time for a number of years, and paid for it all myself.

Is is worth the effort and hard work? I think so. If I hadn't spent the money flying, then it would have been on something else.

Good Luck with your decision, and whatever you decide, remember that it is your money, and you are the customer.

ECT

[flametree]

Mate if you really want to do it, go for it. Be prepared though. It may be a tough slog and you may never make it to the big boys.
I would do the training close to your home. If you want to pursue it then do it all in one hit.
The Asian market is really opening up so there may be chances up there if you are prepared to leave home once you get the hours up.
If I was you, happy in my job and and it was secure, I would stick at it and still do my CPL/instructors rating and work part time. That way you have the best of both worlds
Evaluate, re-evaluate, then follow your gut feeling. It is usually right.

[Krazy]

Well I think I'm going to go for it, part time me thinks! If I don't make it to the big boys, big deal. If I end up flying mail runs in the outback - cool - I'll get to see something different. I'm not concerned about travelling and working in deadbeat places as a pilot - I love exploring and experiencing new places. I think by doing it part time I'll get to pursue my other passions (that's the problem - I have too many passions!), will be able to pay my way through this (so long as costs don't go up too much!), and have goals to enjoy.

Might just have to consider driving out of town every weekend if the price differences are as significant as they look!

[bollix69]

Apologies for going off the track here, however, what lonesome flying school is left in Canberra? I did my training there almost 10 years ago and there was an abundance of flying schools then. It was an excellent place to learn, its dissappointing to hear that some schools have fallen by the wayside.

[shnev]

Howdie mate, you're just in the right position to do it. Trust me.

I'm currently working in the Kimberley in my first job, and in my company is a 26 year old lad too, who flew on a private licence for 6 years. He decided to get his CPL, now he is clocking up over 25hrs a week.

I also have a close friend who is an FO for VirginBlue. He started flying (ie, his first flying lesson) when he was 28years old. Now he is 33 and sitting in the right hand seat of a B737.

With your attitude and qualifications (ie, degree's) I'm sure you'll advance to the top. Maybe not Qantas? Who cares! The only thing you might find hard coming to grip with is, putting up with the GA industry, as previously mentioned. Hot sweaty cockpits, smelly passengers, cleaning after every flight etc.. But all this aside, I personally am having the time of my life and wouldn't have chosen to do it differently.

I'll drop you a PM with more specific information to help you out too.

shnev

[shnev]

Just tried PM'ing you Krazy but it didn't work. Drop me an email if you'd like to hear more...

[email protected]

[Krazy]

The one [fixed wing] flying school left in Canberra is Brindabella Airlines. The Airport Flying School was the last one that closed (about a month ago). It's definitely a sad time for GA in Canberra!

shnev - not sure why I don't have PMs on here - I'll email you - thanks for that.


EDIT - so does anyone have thoughts on places to train? I've been looking at drives up to Sydney (Camden would only be a couple of hours away - and also seems pretty reasonable in terms of facilities and location. Would love to hear opinions about flying schools there if anyone has any...maybe I'll drive up on Sunday and check some of them out...

[Aunt Mavis]

Krazy SOB

Think long and hard before spending your money it's a tough slog. You'll be spending somewhere between 30 - 60k even taking into account your PPL hours, and dependant upon your current quals (night, twin, MEIR etc ?). Also factor in the money you're not otherwise earning in your current employment.

Once you get the much vaunted CPL you'll just be a piece of crap at the bottom of a very big pile of other pieces of crap called umemployed newbie CPL's (think the term is UGAL ?) (Not my thoughts - just the general image of newbies amongst a lot of GA operators).

Just trying to get a job you'll be used, abused, screwed, prostituted, ridiculed and humiliated.

Some dickhe_ads may even do nasty things to your recently received CV and pin it up on the ops board, trying to cover the fact that they have very small penis's.

Assuming you're one of the lucky few who score a GA job, you'll then be used, abused, screwed, prostituted, ridiculed and humiliated.

But doing a low pass to move the brumbys off some red strip in Imbunuganuggnugga in an overweight 40 year old 207 chockers with goodies for the local store (predominantly potato chips, Cheezels, spuds and frozen pies), or noticing a 200 ft dust devil heading towards you when you're overloaded and slow on late final for Wennicobbarooka Mission, or pushing the little bugger up to 13,000 to put your 6 pax from Mekagungagunga to sleep while keeping the air vent firmly aimed at your face to ward off evil smells, or even just flying some punters visiting from the other side of the world around the local geological lump/s in the ground and spinning some garbage about the mythical naked lady who can be seen prancing about on the ebbing moon every third year at soltice - PRICELESS !

You'll meet a couple of complete knobs, but you'll also meet some of the best people you'll ever know, and will remain life long friends regardless of where they/you are.

26 aint to late - if you want it then get out and make it happen.

But best you have some finance behind you to help you thru the tough GA years.

All my love

Mavis

[bollix69]

Does anyone know what happened to Tom and Jan Dennis? I heard Tom wasn't too well a while back. Shame to hear that his flying school didn't make it through.

[hadagutful]

Did some flying with Tom Dennis back in the late 70's and early 80's when he operated little TCO, a 152 and a nice old C210, DBU.
Although I was a full-time student, still found some time and money to keep flying. Canberra was an interesting place to fly around and Tom was a great guy.

I imagine he would have just about retired by now, certainly would have had enough of the aviation game I think.