Bali - Who wants to go?

[belowMDA]

In light of the case with Schapelle Corby facing the death penalty for trying to smuggle drugs into Bali, is anyone out there brave enough to trust your life with the indonesians and their justice systems, if not baggage handlers in Oz? Anyone think she is guilty?

I for one will not ever be going there.

PS does anyone actually smuggle drugs into Bali?

[Captain Sand Dune]

Most - if not, all - SE Asian countries have the death penalty for drug smuggling (wish we in Oz had the balls to do it, but that's for another time!:} ). This has been the case for a loooong time, and is well known. In addition, different countries have different legal systems. Don't fall into the trap of assuming ours is somehow superior to their's.
Schapelle Corby was (IMHO) stitched up by an Australian in Australia.
Our collective fury should be aimed at the piece of sh*t here in Oz that put the wacky weed in Schapelle's bag.
Best of luck to the young lass.

[Ultralights]

over there, you have to prove your innocence! your guilty, until you pay them, or you prove your innocence in their currupt court systems,

unlike here, your Innocent, until proven Guilty! and if you are innocent, the media would have destroyed whatever life you were hoping to go back to.

[Captain Sand Dune]

A different legal system - my point exactly.
We here in Oz also have an appeals systems that lets murderers and rapists out early, victims of break-ins being charged for defending themselves, drunken judges getting off with a slap on the wrist for drunk driving....need I go on?
Don't get me wrong,- I have every sympathy for Schapelle Corby (the "Bali Nine" - that's a different story!:* ), however I maintain that instead of criticising the Indonesian legal system - which is only working as advertised - we should be more concerned with how the stuff got in Shapelle's bag - ie here...in Australia...by an Australian!:ugh:

[Di_Vosh]

The media like to appeal to the hysterical masses (i.e. us) who would have us believe that the most unlikely events can (and will) happen to us, the very next time we're in a similar situation.

You don't just see it in Bali; you can see it whenever there's a shark attack, and the media crap that follows.

Without going into either of the Bali drugs cases, there have been two such cases in Bali over the past six months. One of which appears to have been a genuine case of "wrong place at the wrong time". As none of this has happened to any of the other thousands of people that visit Bali every week, I think that the chances of it happening to YOU are pretty slim.

Do you NOT drive to the airport because there was a road fatality last night?

DIVOSH!

[tinpis]

Wrong.

Indonesian law assumes innocence until proved otherwise.

[Keg]

tinpis, whilst I'm sure that Indonesian law says that, I'm not quite sure how that reconciles with this report on news.com.au yesterday!

[quote]
THE chief judge in the Schapelle Corby case yesterday said the Gold Coast beauty student's defence team had not "done enough" to prove her innocence.

In an extraordinary interview with The Weekend Australian just weeks before he and two fellow judges hand down their verdict, Chief Judge Linton Sirait said: "From Corby's defence I haven't heard anything to prove she is innocent."

(My emphasis!)

[tinpis]

Keg he is admonishing the defence on a poor effort.

[7gcbc]

These countries have SIGNIFICANT issues with drug use, social issues, Murders, theft , child prostitution, Arms trafficing, Organised crime in otherwords that would make the Mafia, Soviets and IRA look like schoolboys , the last thing they need is to be seen weak in dealing with non-SE Asians. Before we cry foul and ask for special sympathies, we should consider the position these countries are in.

Drugs are a low risk cash cow for these "organisations".

[Old Smokey]

7gcbc, you make very good points, but it goes to a far higher level than organised crime in S.E. Asia. Drug manufacture and distribution form the greater part of the revenue earning activities of ACTIVE Terrorist organisations such as the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF) and Abu Sayef in the Philippines. Other countries have similar organisations, but the one Grand Mufti of them all is one Osama Bin Ladin.

Whilst "Murders, theft , child prostitution, Kidnapping, and Arms trafficing" are horrendous crimes in their own right, the direct link between drugs and international terrorism in this region should be of much greater concern to all, especially those in the aviation industry.

Old Smokey

[Staggerwing]

Has the bag snatcher's union taken, or been involved in, any action to track down the cretins involved in this alleged drug smuggling operation that has put Ms Corby in an Indonesian prison, or are they protecting the bludgers against company and police action.

[Obiwan]

I hear on the news this morning that the guards in the prison holding Corby have been busted supplying heroin to prisoners in an undercover operations.
:eek: :confused:

[NAMPS]

I spoke to an Indonesian Law expert recently. The criminal justice system requires the accused to prove their innocence.

[Obiwan]

One travel agent has started to refuse to book holidays to Bali. If you want to go there he'll send you to the guy down the road.

Bali relies heavily on the tourist buck as witnessed in the aftermath of the bombing there. That's one way to make a point. Maybe a govt travel advisory to aussie tourists warning them away from Bali due to the dodgy legal system etc?

[Capt Claret]

tinpis

Knowledgable legal friends have advised me that the Indonesian legal system does not share our presumption of innocence.

[belowMDA]

Would it be fair to say the Indonesians would not mourn the loss of western tourists nearly as much as the Balinese?

[tinpis]

Page 1
Indonesian Trial Process and Legal System
Background Notes
Associate Professor Tim Lindsey
Director, Asian Law Centre
The University of Melbourne
The Indonesian legal system is a Civil Law system rather than a Common Law system
(The Common Law System is found chiefly in Australia, England, America and other
former British colonies). As the Indonesian legal system is derived from French and German models, its procedures are entirely different to those in Australia.
For example, Civil Law systems do not use juries. Instead, decisions as to guilt or innocence are made by a panel of three judges. One of these judges is the Chair (ketua)
and is usually more senior than the other two judges. Typically, the judges produce a single, joint judgment (Putusan). It is virtually unknown for a judge (hakim) to dissent from the decision of the other two members of the panel and dissenting judgments are rarely produced and never released (except, recently, in the Commercial Court
(Pengadilan Niaga)).
Typically, Civil Law judgments are much shorter than Common Law judgments. In Indonesia, for example, the judgment may be only a few pages. In major cases, judgments tend to be long, of a length to be expected in a Common Law Appeal Court,but this is usually because the Courts often summarise all the evidence in the judgment
(This is not usual in Common Law judgments). Legal reasoning to distinguish previous cases and so forth is relatively rare, because Civil Law systems do not have a system of
precedent.
Precedent, in Common Law systems, is the principle that previous cases with similar facts on an identical point of law will bind courts of equal or lower status. In Civil Law
systems, courts are not bound by decisions of courts at the same level or higher. This means that there is little need for law reporting in Indonesia and certainly not for published authoritative sets of judgments. Some, limited collections of judgments are
published (for example, Yurisprudensi) but they are ad hoc in nature. In fact, statements as to preferred interpretation or policy issued by the Supreme Court in the form of surat
edaran (circular letters), rather like practice notes in the Common Law System, tend to be
more influential than previous decisions, even of the Supreme Court.
Another key distinction between Common Law and Civil Law systems is that Civil Law
systems are ‘inquisitorial’ in nature while Common Law systems are ‘adversarial’. This
means that in Common Law systems the judge acts as an impartial referee while the
parties present their witnesses in an attempt to convince a jury or, in most cases, the
judge. The judge generally does not ask questions of witnesses (saksi) and is usually
active only in enforcing the rules of evidence and procedure.
Page 2
In an inquisitorial system, however, the judges conduct an enquiry into the truth of what
occurred, that is, the facts behind the legal issues in dispute. For this reason, judges
control the proceedings and may directly question witnesses. In some Civil Law systems,
the judges may even dominate the hearing to such an extent that lawyers are left with few
questions to ask at all.
The layout of an Indonesian court reflects the inquisitorial nature of Civil Law
proceedings. The judges face the witness who sits alone in a chair in the centre of the
court. Lawyers are placed off to the sides, reflecting their relatively reduced significance
in proceedings. Judges may sometimes even call witnesses that the parties have not
called, demand that additional witnesses attend or even refuse to hear from witnesses
called by the parties. There is also less emphasis on the rules of evidence in inquisitorial
systems as judges tend to allow most material in and then decide on its merits at a later
point.
In Indonesia, prosecution is always conducted by state officials known as jaksa or
prosecutors. These are always government employees and private lawyers are never
hired to represent the prosecution. Normally, police conduct initial investigations and
then hand a brief to the prosecution. Issues such as arrest and detention can only be
decided on the application of an accused person at a pre-trial hearing (praperadilan) and
can never be raised at the main trial.
References
Lindsey, T. (ed.) (1999), Indonesia: Law & Society, Federation Press, Sydney.
Lindsey, T. (ed.) (2000), Indonesia: Bankruptcy, Law Reform & the Commercial Court,
Desert Pea Press, Sydney.
Lindsey, T. & Dick, H. (eds.) (2002), Corruption in Asia, Federation Press, Sydney.

[Capt Claret]

tinpis,

does your reference offer anything re the presumtion, or otherwise, of innocence, as you mentioned in an earlier post?

[kiwiman]

People are getting a little confused over the basis of the justice system over there.

Corby had in her possession a bag which she was bringing from outside the country, into the country. The bag was found to be carrying drugs. That in itself is enough to remove any presumption of innocence in Indonesian law and therefore she must prove that the drugs were a. not hers and b. were in her bag without her knowledge or consent. This is nigh on impossible to do.

If she was caught coming into Sydney with a bag full of drugs that were planted on her, you would have the same difficulty in proving her innocence under the Australian legal system as you would in Indonesia.

[tinpis]

Claret for that sort of advice I charge $350 an hour.:hmm:

[Capt Claret]

Cheque's in the mail. :=

[tinpis]

Whats to say something was not put in Corbys luggage after arrival in Denpassar?
:hmm:



edited to make some sense.

[tinpis]

BANG !! ...they're racing..... (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,15171490-2,00.html)

[hoss]

Who wants to go to Bali? I do, I'm off there in 2 days with my beautiful girlfriend for a couple of weeks:) . See you all when i get back and hopefully you wont see me on TV:ouch: .

Take care, hoss:ok: