Near miss events over area of Melbourne CBD

[Centaurus]

The compact area of the Melbourne City CBD attracts aircraft from Essendon and Moorabbin on city orbit joy flights which are normally flown at 1500 ft and under control of Essendon Tower on 125.1.

Immediately to the south and south-east of the CBD, the boundary between CTA and OCTA is shown on the Melbourne VTC as the Yarra River. CTA and OCTA aircraft operating on the boundary immediately south of the CBD sometimes pass close to each other with, to put it mildly, less than optimum separation.

One such event occurred recently with the CTA aircraft correctly on En tower frequency of 125.1 and cleared at 1500 ft and another aircraft OCTA presumably on the correct frequency of ML Radar 135.7. That aircraft was also at 1500 ft. The CTA aircraft had been earlier advised by ATC of the OCTA traffic in the general area south of the city, spotted on radar.

It would help if Pprune readers who are familiar with the area where the CTA and OCTA lateral boundaries join near Westgate Bridge area, and immediately south and south-east of the CBD, could describe any near misses they might have experienced in these areas and their solutions for minimising the risks between CTA and OCTA traffic. One solution. for instance, could be to clear CTA traffic at 2000 ft for city orbits, thus giving 500 ft height separation at the boundaries of CTA and OCTA.

[Sunfish]

Although I'm definitely not an expert, I'm going to weigh in on this one so feel free to correct me.

I live in Williamstown, and from the yachtclub deck I watch aircraft transiting the area all day long. I have also transited said airspace regularly as I guess everyone else has too.

I can't see the problem yet. If I want to do a city orbit then I ask Essendon on 125.1 and I am under their control sqawking 0100 or1100 or whatever and on the same frequency as other Essendon airspace users.

Similarly an IFR aircraft would be on 135.7 if both of us are outside YMEN's airspace.

The problem I think you are referring to is an instantaneaous one where your IFR flight is 1500 ft inbound or outbound on 125.1 and at the boundary is me in a warrior VFR, gaily puttering along at 1500 on 135.7. Is this what you mean?

If it is, I would have thought that ATC would provide traffic advice to the IFR flight, and in any case, I'm not going anywhere near the Westgate or Bolte bridges unless I'm bound for Essendon anyway, I'd usually go from Station peer direct across to Williamstown, by which time your hypothetical IFR flight should be climbing clear and in any case be on the same frequency.

Other aircraft that use this airspace frequently ( I can hear one of them now) are the Tiger moth and the Yak out of YPCK and Rod's Seaplane joyflights. They seem to keep below 1000 feet to keep out of everyone's way.

The one that concerns me more is inbound aircraft from Brighton descending from 1500 feet to 1000 feet inbound while I'm doing the reverse.

[maxgrad]

monitor both twr and ras freq. all stations call on octa freq of intentions, confirm with twr no other a/c near or at you.
In short use all you available resources and common sense.

It is a high use area, be aware and act accordingly.

Haven't flown round that area for about 6 yrs now but used to be constantly doing work (instructing and Tfc survey) right through that region.

From memory the twr was usually very good in advising and helping.

[Chief galah]

The airspace between MB, ML CBD and PCK can get very congested.
It is a raffle as to what frequency any of these aircraft could be on, e.g. 125.1 (EN TWR), 135.7 (ML RAS), 132.1 (Yarra CTAF), MB (123.0) or PCK (126.2).
I can only recommend pilots look out continuously when south of the CBD, or when exiting the CTR there. Don't let passengers distract you. Get them to look out too.
The traffic referred to by Centaurus operates so close to the boundary between Albert Park Lake and Williamstown, at 1500', that it is too late to look out when exiting. You have to scan well before reaching the outbound points.
ATC endeavour to point out meaningful traffic, but the radar can be deceptive when there's returns that are close together.
Sunfish, I think you're on the wrong track. There is not much IFR traffic OCTA in that area. The traffic is VFR between MB, EN and PCK as well as choppers out of CBD heliports, plus the seaplane out of Williamstown.
Also, I think you should be avoiding the inbound GAAP points when departing or transitting MB CTR.
CG

[John Eacott]

This "problem" has been around since Pontius was a pilot: I 225'd it 25 years ago :rolleyes:

Centaurus, the CTAF (132.10) is there to cater for the very issue raised here. Why not use it: it's published on the VTC, complete with CTAF boundary :ok:

[Centaurus]

If the aircraft on city orbit is under EN Twr control on 125.1 the pilot would be wise to listen closely for ATC instructions that may be directed at him. If he is listening simultaneously to the local CTAF frequency where the float-plane and helicopters play, and talk to his passengers as well, then of course he will have to prioritise.

Meanwhile, anyone experienced close shaves in the area?

[maxgrad]

Centaurus,
Spot on!
Prioritise. You can be looking out and monitouring 2 comms(hopefully a/c has 2) and showing pax the area.
Prior to blast off tell them the situation, what they are going to see, even have a mud map made up for them to use in flight, this reduces the amount of talking by the driver. Also advise the pax to keep a look out for a/c and to piont and say a/c left/right/up etc etc.

Monitoring coms can get tricky but in this case radio and a very good look out is a priority.

[Di_Vosh]

I do plenty of joy flights over the CBD (I'll be doing one this afternoon) and have never had a problem DOING THE ORBITS as you're under EN TWR control. I've been one of three a/c doing orbits at the same time over the CBD (2 @ 2000'; 1 @ 1500' - all too easy!)

I'd agree that you need far more caution at places like BTO. Once I've departed MB, all of my spare capacity is looking for traffic. MB being a training aerodrome, there are much higher numbers of inexperienced or occasional pilots who have poor radio calls, knowledge of procedures, and general SA.

CG has raised a very good point about not departing over any of the GAAP inbound reporting points - the wider berth the better, as it is incredible where some people think BTO (brighton) or Carrum or GMH is, or how high 1500' is.


DIVOSH!

P.S. What yacht club, Sunfish?

[Sunfish]

RYCV - Melb seaplanes are right next door. Be there for lunch today.

[John Eacott]

Centaurus,

No close shaves (flying wise: I've had a beard for 30+ years ;) ) for many years. Prioritise? I've done City Scenics for many years (15 at least), the CTAF makes it a lot easier, and we monitor EN tower plus chat to the pax.

JGE & JGT are my JetRangers, listen out for them on the CTAF, plus EN Tower. Who will always give you conflicting traffic as part of the service. They are particularly good at advising of traffic OCTA, as far as Williamstown and St Kilda.

If the aircraft on city orbit is under EN Twr control on 125.1 the pilot would be wise to listen closely for ATC instructions that may be directed at him. If he is listening simultaneously to the local CTAF frequency where the float-plane and helicopters play, and talk to his passengers as well, then of course he will have to prioritise.

I note that nowhere do you refer to "Lookout" as being a factor: this does tend to make me think that you have a greater reliance on radio calls than on seeing and avoiding with the good old Mk1 eyeball. In this wonderful age of TCAS, radar assistance and lots of radio calls, I too have fallen into the trap sometimes of expecting a radio call to let me know of conflicting traffic, rather than keeping a good look out of the aircraft.

Much ado about nothing :confused:

[Chief galah]

Please remember that, at 1500', the southern half of the orbit is in G airspace, which is not under the control of EN Tower.
The clearance for the orbit pertains to that portion of C CTR, MCG north to roughly Bolte Bridge.
It is convenient, probably wise, to stay on Tower frequency, as they may direct traffic to you, and you will be able to assess traffic approaching and exiting the zone.
However, at any time, there could be transitting traffic in G airspace that will be on another frequency, or in some cases just off in la-la land.
John E
The Yarra CTAF is only up to 1000' and is poorly marked on the VTC. I don't think the fixed wingy's pay too much attention to it. We know you're lookin' out tho'.

CG

[John Eacott]

CG,

Excellent point, the CTAF up to 1000ft. How about RAPAC or similar presenting a case for it to extend to 1500ft, or even 2000? Would you overfly a CTAF by 500ft clearance at an airfield, and not (at least) listen out on that frequency, as a matter of airmanship?

Since the area is the boundary of so many choices of frequency, maybe it would give an additional comfort factor to those who need it ;)

[Ang737]

I have had a similar story transiting YMMB - YMEN via Albert Park. I was maintaining 1500' visually on 135.7 approx 2 miles south of Albert Park. I was just about to sqwark 0100 and change to 125.1 after having just recieved the ATIS. When at 160kts IAS it can be quite a busy sector and anyway low and behold a C172 appeared 12 o'clock same level slightly diverging. I took avasive action and cleared his track.

This highlights another point that the MB - EN track when transiting at 1500' can be deadly if you don't prioritise and one gets bogged down with getting ATIS' and changing frequencies, transponder codes etc etc... From now on when flying En - MB I leave the zone at Station Pier and track off the coast for Brighton.

Its a different story IFR of course so I cant imagine the tension in the minds of those green recruits from PCK doing there first En entry solo, lets just hope the instructors are informing them of the procedures and traffic conflicts...

Be careful out there...

Ang ;)

[Chief galah]

John E
I thought the other points were OK too.
The trouble with a higher CTAF is problematic. One is frequency management discipline. There is plenty of evidence that this doesn't happen.
Another is that a lot of lighties don't have two comms. There's no way the average VFR pilot is going to be bothered with making a CTAF call, or monitor both frequency's for that area. It's better that the upper level of the CTAF be below their level. And, there's that warm comfortable feeling of being on EN Tower frequency, with a clearance even though they're outside the zone for some of the time.

Ang737
There is no IFR traffic there. The closest is perhaps aircraft descending into MB from C airspace (usually well passed the city), or those on the 158radial approach to MB, which is still well beyond the city area.
If an IFR wants to be there (extremely rare), it would have to be visual, and a full traffic advisory service would be provided by 135.7 in G, or separation service when in C.

So, it's see and avoid, I wish there was a better solution.

Please remember the up and coming "Flight Following" will not be available on Tower frequency. Your NAS taxes at work.

CG

[QSK?]

Even though I've never done a scenic at 1000ft, I was shocked to read that there was such a thing as a Yarra CTAF. Until now, I never even knew it existed!

However, you guys arre right it's on the VTC but not very well marked. Much wiser now, thanks very much.

[Squawk7700]

I've had a near miss in the area when doing a clock-wise City Orbit under 125.1 En Tower at 1,500ft. I was quite obviously in CTA when I was told by the tower "XXX, be advised of opposite direction traffic in your 12 o'clock position same level unverified, probably a sea-plane, take evasive action!"

Seems that the Seaplane sometimes operates both in and around controlled without necessarily being in contact with EN tower, but they know he's there. Certainly adds to the excitement level when you have to take evasive action in CTA!

As for the Yarra CTAF - look on your map chappies! Unlikely to cause too many problems given that they are generally choppers at low level.

As for tracking west from Station Peer (or the reverse), this is fraught with danger as at 1,500 ft you've got traffic inbound to Essendon at same level on a different frequency. Even scarier is that you can legally (and some people happily do) operate in that area even without a radio! Stick with 2,500 if you can west bound (as per VNC chart recommendations).

[Chief galah]

1. The seaplane does not enter the CTR.
2. The seaplane does not request a clearance.
3. The seaplane does not announce its intentions on EN Tower frequency.
4. The seaplane does infringe VFR navigation tolerances (+/-1nm) of the CTR. Refer AIP ENR 1.1-37 19.11
5. As far as is practicable, and as per instructions, EN Tower provide a traffic information service on radar observed traffic in the vicinity of the CTR boundary.
6. Because of points 2 & 3, EN Tower are not always aware the seaplane is there.
Or of those without transponder on.
Or of the helicopters out of the city pads.
Or of the level of those without Mode C selected.

As a besides, in the mid 90’s the CTR was reduced in size in accordance with “ICAO worlds best practise”. This was to allow the flexibility we all now enjoy to fly without the constraints of controlled airspace or ATC. And yet those who now choose to do so, still like the advice and guidance of controllers who have no legal obligations apart from the nebulous “duty of care.”

Squawk7700

I would consider any level from 0-2500 ft a hazard between MB and PCK.

If any of this bothers anyone, take it up with the regulator (CASA), not the service provider (AirServices Australia).

C (grumpy old man) G

[Centaurus]

The seaplane does not enter CTR? That is nice to know, because it sure comes damned close.

[Chief galah]

Centaurus
Please refer to Note #4, in my previous.
CG

[djpil]

19.11 of ENR refers to appropriate tolerances to the flight path and specifies numerical tolerances for the intended track.
My interpretation of appropriate tolerances to apply depends on location of landmarks wrt the blue lines. I also like to fly a flight path which does not worry the radar guys i.e. tolerance varies depending whether I fly parallel to the blue line or towards it. I will fly close to the blue line near Station Pier as I don't like flying 2 nm over the water. i.e. following the VFR route to the west is well within the specified tolerances for intended track but quite appropriate.

Only one radio in the Tiger so will be on 135.7 except when getting ATIS.

Choppers are generally at Tiger altitude too. I normally go outbound from MB along the coast at 700 ft and return at 1500 ft. Other Tiger pilots are out more often than I am, they do it differently.

[John Eacott]

CG,

The zone boundary is that, a boundary. You and I can fly right up to it, without infringing airspace, but common sense and good airmanship dictates some awareness of what is going on around you. We operate to the Yarra helipads without CTA clearances, that's what it's all about, and give calls on the CTAF. If we're going into EN CTA, listen out on tower, squawk 0100 early to give them a heads up.

Nothing wrong or illegal about the seaplane nor the Tiger. The seaplane just did its usual run up the Yarra in front of me, we saw each other, and a quick call on 132.1 to make sure.

From another G.O.M. ;)

[N2000]

Folks

How do you go about planning a CBD orbit flight? Is there a preferred direction and time?

Can you do it at the end of an IFR flight on the way back to MB?

N2000

[maxgrad]

certainly can.
Other more recent drivers in that area can give you a heads up on direction, time etc but one suggestion I will make is if in doubt contact the tower by phone and have a chat.
Very helpfull and may give you some ideas on best entry piont(s)

[Centaurus]

Interesting that the ENR allows +/-1 nm of CTR boundary. Does that mean the minus bit is the nod to fly one mile inside the CTR and not get into trouble with ATC?