ASTOR why?

[Ivan Rogov]

I have read the recent threads slating Typhoon and I can't really see what all the fuss is about, it looks like we will get good aircraft. However this got me thinking about ASTOR, my understanding is that it detects columns of vehicles using it's radar. Is this all it will do? Who will we need to use it against ? Does it fit in with the multi-role theme that we are now going for?
Must be some 5sqn peeps out there with time on their hands ;)

[Spotting Bad Guys]

Taken from the MOD website:

ASTOR - the Air-borne STand-Off Radar - is a ground surveillance system designed to provide information regarding the deployment and movement of enemy forces. It will use state-of-the-art radar technology to obtain high resolution imagery of static features and can also identify and track moving vehicles. Imagery gathered will be transmitted in near-real-time to a network of distributed Ground Stations deployed with front-line forces. Images can be displayed and analysed within the Ground Stations, ensuring that tactical commanders are aware of the latest developments on the ground. It will be a vital force multiplier in the modern conflict where speed of battle is such that up-to-date information is crucial if troops are to be deployed effectively.

With the Sythetic Aperture Radar, you don't just get MTI dots moving on a scope (a la J-STARS in Desert Storm) but you get a high-res radar image, which can be used as a stand-alone source or cross-cued with other assets. It should be quite good, really!

SBG

[Incipient Sinner]

Mr Rogov,

I'm sure it was quite worth your while creating this logon today purely to ask this question. The above reply seems quite comprehensive; it's good kit, required by the boys on the ground, and we can probably leave it at that.

IS

[Ivan Rogov]

Thanks for the swift reply, but that does look a bit like the sales pitch rather than the real capability and potential.
I'm guessing that it can't actually give more info. than "there is a small group of vehicles over there, going that way etc." which in the present climate isn't much use unless we have a positive I.D. I understand that Joint STARS was useful in Gulf War 1, but was it used successfully in any other conflict since? When you talk about high res. does that mean that the radar has to stop it's area search to build up the image? Finally isn't this what UAV's are perfect for, high altitude, long endurance, relativly basic mission profiles? Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to talk down Sentinel, I just don't see why we are going that way in the current climate, especially when our war buddies already have the capability.


Mr Sinner,
See where your going with that, I think. No I am not Press, not that it would matter as this is an open forum? I am just interested in how the big new toys will fit in our "Golf Bag", what will they actually do for us.
BTW I don\'t want to drag this thread into another slag fest as that benifits no one.:sad:

[ralphmalph]

The introduction of ASTOR in today's armed forces not only brings a capability a la J-STARS but the ability to rationaliase assets and deploy the most "cost effective result".

We in Britain are unfortunate to never have the right amount of firepower/surveillance/hardware available to do the job on an ad hoc basis.

Therefore, it seems as though any improvement in battlefield surveillance and targeting is bound to be a great asset.

The radar in question not only allows the identification of "blips" but in the very near future the classification of vehicles/types.

If you couple this technology with tha ability to detect individual radar threat systems( e.g. ZSU23/4 ---- number 17 made in Krakow) then you have a truly awesome bit of ISTAR equipment!

Ralph

[Spotting Bad Guys]

From the FAS website:

The dual mode Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR)/Moving Target Indicator (MTI) is the main sensor in the ASTOR system, enabling radar data to be available in near real time for processing and exploitation both on the platform and the ground. This provides monitoring of land-based targets to assess military capability and behaviour patterns. Targets can be classified at long range for interdiction, with wide area MTI surveillance used to determine the position of a variety of vehicles travelling over a wide range of radial velocities. The ASTOR Dual Mode Radar (DMR) is a developed version of the ASARS 2 radar, Enhanced ASARS, which is currently in use with the U-2R.

To pick up on your question regarding UAVs, the UK Military does not - as yet - operate a UAV with the strategic reach and SAR capability provided by ASTOR. The current crop of larger UAVs tend to be employed (badly perhaps) in Full-motion-video EO or IR roles and the advantages of a SAR capability tend to get overlooked i.e. you can't look through a cloud with EO, but you can with SAR.

I would envision UAVs and ASTOR complementing each other's capabilities; the trick will be in fusing the data in a meaningful and timely fashion.

I hope this helps.

SBG

[Archimedes]

Ivan,

May I suggest that you go to the 'Army means' and look at the thread there about the Army's relationship with the RAF (subtly titled 'I hate crabs, I hate crabs, I hate crabs...'). Despite the title, the issue of ASTOR has crept into the discussion.

On page 20 of that thread, Magic Mushroom (who may be along here presently, I suppose) provides more info that might be of interest to you.

[Widger]

During Gulf War II, 849Sqn operating Seaking Mk7 ASaCS supported the Royal Marines (and others) assault on the Al Faw peninsula, using precisely the capability talked about here.

Can't find any suitable links but I am sure someone will post them. Bagman or Totalwar????

[Gainesy]

it detects columns of vehicles using it's radar

Wasn't that one of the reasons Nimrod AEW.3 was binned? :rolleyes:

[rivetjoint]

The U-2's ASARS has come a long way in the last 4 years so probably not like to like any more, also E-8s are still heavily used but because they don't drop bombs you don't hear about them.

[ChristopherRobin]

...I don't hate crabs, as a matter of fact they make me look/feel good!

On the subject of ASTOR, the capabilities of the system are highly confidential, so you won't get much more than the stuff you've read already. You can rest assured that it will be a potent piece of kit that will give Land commander in particular a God's-eye view of the battlefield in real time.

Suitably cross-cued, it could be a mainstay of Network Enabled Capability for many years to come - if we had any networks of course! No networks = no NEC, but no one seems to realise that in London yet...and that's another subject.

anyway, on the subject of UAVs, WATCHKEEPER will have a SAR as well as EO/IR etc. Saying that UAVs should be used instead of ASTOR though rather misses the point. ASTOR is to WATCHKEEPER what an artillery gun is to a sniper rifle. They're similar on paper, but designed to do different things.

On of the problems that SAR places on its bearer platform is the amount of electricity it uses in the radar; bigger aircraft not only carry more payload, but also produce more electricity. You need look no further than the USAF's efforts to produce the EB-52 for an example of this - 8 engines = a fair bit of juice = ideal Electronic Warfare platform.

A small aircraft like a UAV (even though the WATCHKEEPER UAV has approx a 35 foot wingspan) won't produce as much power as ASTOR so propbably wouldn't have the same range - but it doesn't need it. It also can't carry the same payload. The added advantage of ASTOR is that, although it has a ground element to process its information, it doesn't need it in all circumstances; UAVs do. Quite useful if you want to recce areas where a ground system cannot be deployed within range.

So Ivan, you may say that UAVs are coming along that can do the ASTOR mission such as Global Hawk, for example, and you are right, but something like GH needs serious space communications support, something that the UK is only beginning to work up to with SKYNET 5. Also, the MOD's airworthiness branch are very circumspect when it comes to UAVs (the tank will never replace the horse as far as they're concerned) and are scared to death of the Treaty of Rome, so they won't let UAVs fly without swinging restrictions - something that doesn't affect ASTOR. If you add the cost of SATCOM running at 10Mbps, the actual satellite, the risk, the UAV (GH is still officially experimental) and so on, ASTOR looks like a good bet after all.

UAVs are probably the future for ASTOR-like capability, but they are in the future. To deliver something like ASTOR today in a UAV would be much more painful, risky and expensive than doing it the way it has been done with ASTOR.

...Plus the airforce get to fly a few more executive jets than they do now, and that has to be a fringe benefit for anyone thinking of leaving the service...

[Ivan Rogov]

Excellent replys, thanks.

CR, I agree with most of your points. Especially the present UAV limitations, for example Preditor aledgedly needs quite a large support infrastucture and it's capability was described as a loking at the world through a small tube, hence limited situational awareness which is something that very few manned aircraft suffer from. Of course in the future more/better sensors and NEC will make UAV's more attractive, Global Hawk is probably there almost, if you have the budget!


Widger, you mentioned Seaking ASaCS capability and the part it played in the Gulf War 2, did it realy provide ASTOR capability? From what I have heard and read it seems that it picked up a few land targets and due to some good work by the crews, managed to get other units to positively I.D. and engage them. A job well done, but well below what the ASTOR reqirement is, but similar to the Army's CASTOR from the early 80's? I can see how that might come in useful in our limited Expeditionary warfare, especially as the Mk 7 has another role and is easier to deploy/maintain.


Ralphmalph, you mentioned
"If you couple this technology with the ability to detect individual radar threat systems( e.g. ZSU23/4 ---- number 17 made in Krakow) then you have a truly awesome bit of ISTAR equipment!"
Does ASTOR have an ELINT system onboard and operators dedicated to it? If not then you require another asset and some pretty fancy links, which AFAIK we don't have and although possible would cost a fair amount to develope.


Still not quite sure who we would need to use the ASTOR capability against, it monitors vast areas for ground vehicles (which have to be moving to be noticed?) great when the Russians were coming over the German Plain and great in Gulf War 1 with almost ideal topography. But was it any use in the Balkans with steep valleys and no defined FLOT or Afganistan?
It still seems to me that it's capability is for full scale conflicts which we are not likely to be involved in considering our present Expeditionary Role defence policy. As we would most likely be with the U.S. they already possess the capability. Iif we have our own conflict in the next 5 to 10 years will we be able to deploy 3 or more large single role aircraft to a FOB on our limited budget.


The Nimrod MRA4 might come in to service "fairly" soon will have the ELINT and MTI radar, and also the ability to positively I.D. and possibly engage targets. It also has growth potential which Sentinel appears to have already used up, although not offering the same level of capability as ASTOR it might give enough capability to do the role while also providing other roles. Would this fit the present day requirement better, maybe we should order a couple more of these instead.


Incedently, I could think of another role that the goverment would love. One Sentinel could cover most of the UK at once and remove the need for any speed cameras:eek:

Again thanks for some excellent response so far.

[round&round]

One shouldn't be asking the question of ASTOR why?

The correct question is ASTOR why not?

The answer is of course, because if we didn't spend lots of lovely money on shiny, noisy airplanes then the idiots who slag us off on ARRSE would go out and buy another utterly useless radio system.

Much better we spend the tax revenue on aircraft that don't work cause even then you can still put them into the Waddington airshow and charge Jo Public £15 a pop to look at it. No ones going to pay that sort of money to see a static show of radios are they!!

That's that one put to bed.

Regards and long live Dis..............astor

R&R

[ChristopherRobin]

thanks, but I disagree with the situational awareness bit. It's only like looking down a straw if the sensor doesn't have a contextual function, ie one camera zoomed in and a twinned camera zoomed out, showing the end of the straw in its context. Fairly simple to do and available on some platforms we already have.

You get no Sit awareness at all from a cockpit with the Mk 1 eyeball when it's 150 miles from what the radar is looking at.

The platform is just a means to an end; the critical bit is the sensors and the associated communications. UAVs in particular live or die on their comms. Because our networks don't exist in any meaningful form, ASTOR is necessarily platform-centric. UAVs are tending more to distributed systems, but it will take several leaps of vision and education before the MOD is able to find the words to set a requirement, never mind deliver, a properly networked and integrated system of systems. Until they do, self-contained platforms like ASTOR will continue to be developed in my view.

[Spotting Bad Guys]

The Predator can also carry a SAR; either the original Westinghouse model or the upgraded Northrop Grumman TESAR. Both give a resolution of around 1 ft and possible future upgrades include the excellent Lynx SAR; probably fitted to the bigger MQ-9 though. However, one of the main problems is that even high-quality radar imagery is harder to 'read' and is confined to still images only. Most of demand for Predator is focused (no pun intended) on its Full-Motion-Video capability.

ASTOR's MTI capability will be excellent but don't get too hung up on the general war scenario; it's imaging capabilities will also be a quantum leap forwards for the RAF and Army.

SBG

[buoy15]

SBG

Quantum leap?

You need to talk to the Nimrod MR2 boys !!

[Ivan Rogov]

R&R
That I think you have hit the nail on the head there:ok:

CR, I don't realy want to go down the UAV or ASTOR route (even if I sort of mentioned it, sorry)

What I am trying to understand is what use it will actually be to us in the near future. As I mentioned at the begining Typhoon got a lot of flak because of it's Cold War requirement, but today it is obvious to me why we now require it. I believe ASTOR was also a Cold War requirement and can't see why we require now.
Yes I know basically what it can do, and yes it would be nice to have the capability, but in the current climate I can think of more than a few capabilities I would rather have that we have lost or neglected. Also the probability that we would only require it on larger ops where the U.S. would be involved and have the capability anyway.
Is it because it is a big Purple project that it has continued?
BTW any news on when it will arrive at Waddo?

[Safety_Helmut]

Ivan

You can be assured that it will arrive at Waddo before the end of the century, however, full operating capability is not guaranteed by that date.

Safety_Helmut

[Widger]

Ivan,

I don't assert for a moment that the Mk7 ASaCS will be as capable as ASTOR and I have limited knowledge of the kit. I do know that it is a very capable system (not talking about the airframe here). Maybe some 849 types could help by expanding (within security rules of course).


:ok:Some info here (http://www-v3.thalesgroup.com/all/pdf/searchwater2000aew.pdf) and here (http://www.aviationtoday.com/cgi/av/show_mag.cgi?pub=av&mon=0701&file=0701seaking.htm)

[Spotting Bad Guys]

Bouy15

I knew that the Searchwater 2000 has a SAR capability but does the Searchwater I have the same? Or have the MR2s been equipped with the 2000? (I was led to believe that the 2000 was intended for the MRA4)

Cheers

SBG

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Helmut,

Can you be a bit more specific? Which century?

[Safety_Helmut]

Thud

Bugger, I'm not sure whether the century was specified in the contract. I think it was raised during negotiations, but the company just said to "trust us, we'll see you right".

Safety_Helmut

[buoy15]

SBG

Suggest you tee-up a 'full Mod' aircraft visit

You will be very pleasantly surprised !