Tsr2

[ATRIXO]

Anyone remember this and why it failed?

[insty66]

have seen the prototype at Cosford. An awesome beast.
According to Insty snr the govt of the time axed it in preference for F-111 which the RAF never got.
From what I've read it would still be something special but perhaps not very relevant.

I also believe that some of the TSR2 technology fouund it's way in to the Tornado. I'd like confirmation of that though.

[ACW418]

Atrixo

If you mean the aircraft called the TSR2 made at Warton it did not fail it was cancelled by Harold Wilson when he became Prime Minister in Oct/Nov 1964. This was an act of political revenge and had nothing to do with the performance of the TSR2.

We had just moved all three Vulcan B2 Squadrons from Coningsby to Cottesmore when Wison won the election and cancelled the aircraft. Coningsby was to be refurbished to accept the TSR2. Most of us who flew Vulcans expected to be the first to fly the new aircraft when it entered service. By all accounts it was an outstanding aircraft which was a British design. I once saw it in the sky when I was flying some chums from Manchester Barton in a Cessna 172 aiming to look at Southport and Blackpool. Nearest I ever got as it was scrapped a few weeks later.

Wilson had all the jigs for the aircraft destroyed so it could not be resurrected and virtually all the airframes were used for some kind of explosive practice at Shoeburyness Experimental range.

ACW

[BEagle]

Cancelled almost exactly 40 years ago by another traitorous loony lefty Labour :yuk: mis-government.

But only after it had been stabbed in the back by the efforts of the Earl Mountbottom who had wrecked its chances by advocating naval air power from vulnerable aircraft carriers instead.....

TSR2 - the best aeroplane the RAF never had.

[uncivilservant]

"But only after it had been stabbed in the back by the efforts of the Earl Mountbottom who had wrecked its chances by advocating naval air power from vulnerable aircraft carriers instead....."
------------------------------------------------
How ironic then, that the future of the RAF's power projection is dependent upon operating from aircraft carriers made even more vulnerable due to the RAF getting carrier-borne fighters scrapped!

[orionsbelt]

Roland Beamont wrote a wonderful Book
'TESTING YEARS' ISBN 0711010722 Published by Ian Allen Ltd

The book includes an excellent section on Test Flying this machine and some of the background as to its demise.


Orions***

[PPRuNe Pop]

And here is a print of the ill fated TSR2. 400 of these prints were a gift to PPRuNe to raise money for the PPRuNe Fund, which I run.

Just thought I would add that in ;) They are only £35 inc P&P and you get a link to the 'Bee' picture below.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/captainavi8tor/TSR2_Final_Signed_print.jpg

And here is the great man signing one of them in April 2001 while he was very ill. But it didn't stop him staying with us for three hours and a super lunch, telling us of the days when........all wonderful stories.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/captainavi8tor/BeesigningTSR2.jpg

[Conan the Librarian]

Ahh... TSR2... How many years ahead of its time was it? A Low level strike and Recon A/C that was meant to cut the mustard and quite possibly would have. I wonder if it had gone ahead as planned, whether Tornado would have even been dreamed of. Certainly, the requirement as then seen, would have been fulfilled umpteenfold with a real showstopper, when the dreamers got together and eventually came up with Tonka. (Also check out the abortive Anglo French jobs that came in TSR2s wake, like AFVG etc. and then, the bargain purchase of the US F- 111K. Still - I digress.) The RAF ended up with a much loved and even more respected alternative, which those in command had apparently tried to poo poo since the inception of TSR2 - The one and only "Banana bomber" - The Buccaneer

Memories? Personally, none at all, though I have looked over the Cosford example and it looks hornier than (fill in here). However, I did talk to a very senior ex RAF engineer who opined that with its largely hard wired systems (way before LRUs made it big time) that it might have been a very hard aeroplane to keep serviceable (but wasn't the Lightning a verticle learning curve for the RAF too?)

A few gems tooled out of innocent reading were fascinating - along with the politics that killed TSR2. Remember the proposed British buy of what was to be F-111K? Ok - Do you remember how much financial deep doo doo we were in at the time? All part of the same defence parcel that bought Albert to our shores.

One of the Warton test pilots (Jimmy Dell, I think) followed TSR2 back from Boscombe to Warton at low level in a Lightning and even in reheat whilst TSR2 was dry,was out accelerated by the big white bird - and this in '64/65.)

Well, the odd schooner of Stella Artois and drooping eyelids suggest that I STFU and go to bed. However, I leave afficianados a link if they wish to see more

http://www.targetlock.org.uk/tsr2/index.html


I would have loved to see this aeroplane fly...... I reckon it is Tonkas' true Dad. Anyway - off to bed now, awaiting birdsong plus a CAT3 hangover.

Nitey nite

[Blacksheep]

I wonder if it had gone ahead as planned, whether Tornado would have even been dreamed of.The mudmover version had no equal for sure, but I wonder how the air defence variant would eventually have got on against the Migs?

It would indeed have been a hard aeroplane to keep serviceable but we who served back then were doing OK with the Vulcan. Now that was a hard beast to keep serviceable...

Then there was the all electric Valiant :ooh:

The apprentice training syllabus's at Halton and Cosford were revised in 1963/64 to train specialists for the TSR2, offering both Technician and Craft apprenticeships. The Boy Entrants were phased out. Meanwhile, out in the operational RAF, the trade structure itself was modified with new trade classifications in trade group 1 - i.e. the new Aircraft Technicians and Electronic Technicians, together with the accompanying Aircraft Fitters and Electronic Fitters to go with them. TSR2 was quite a watershed for the RAF maintenance organization even though it never entered service.

[PPRuNe Pop]

In the narrative at the bottom of the print, which 'Bee' Beamont approved, he declares that if TSR2 had gone ahead there would have been no need at all for Tornado.

[The Lord Flash!]

Gents for those interested perhaps I may suggest the following:

Bea Beaumonts "Phoenix into Ashes" lots on the TSR 2 toward the end of the book after explaining how and what BEA had done to get to being its test pilot. Also includes the story of selling the license to make the Canbera to the USA (B57 i think) and how far ahead of the competition it really was at the time.

Peter Twiss "Faster than the sun" another great read extoling the virtues of the British aviation industry before HM Govt f#<l<ed it over and how they broke the 1000mph barrier record but more importantly in a contest versus Uncle SAM we had more to do in proving that we had done it. (bit like the tail on the X craft and the promised exchange of ideas on supersonic programmes but thats another story....... Me Me Me)

Also Lance Cole "Vickers VC 10" not pointy stuff but still in the fast lane; another example how the Brits solved the problems thrown at them, developed the potential of a real world beater only to have the rug pulled from under them on a global scale by none other than .....HM Govt.

I had heard that the Jag was to be a lead in trainer fro crews destined for the high speed low level capabilities of TSR 2 but have no verification of this.

We have had a great heritage in aviation and should be proud of it unfortunately all we are left with is Waste of Space and Westlands.

:(

[MadamBreakneck]

Ah! TSR2 - I saw it fly through the school window. I got told off for not concentrating on the lesson (either French or History, neither of which I excelled at), but it was one of the best value tellings off I ever had.

Later went to work for BAC (as was) in the Jaguar & MRCA (as was) days. The memories of the TSR2 redundancies still smarted among the survivors. The comment that sticks is them saying 'just look at this [avionics] kit we've got now compared with what we had then. Imagine what we could achieve if we had an airframe like TSR2 to hang it on'.

BAC had the last laugh anyway, look at Tornado and Jaguar, especially Jaguar, from certain angles and you can clearly see the TSR2 parentage.

Scrapped indeed as an act of political incompetence - my recollection is that it was a condition of a loan (or some such) from our friends across the pond that we totally scrap the TSR2 project and buy F111s. Eventually cancelled the F111 order because they didn't do the job and paid swingeing penalty charges.

Happy days.

[BlueEagle]

When I was doing my basic Chipmunk flying at Middle Wallop I had a hiring in Nether Wallop and was lucky enough to see TSR2 overfly the back garden low and slow a couple of times when arriving/departing Boscombe Down, really beautiful. Did any RAF pilots ever get their hands on it? I imagine the Testers from BD were queueing up!

[Pilgrim101]

Ah Comrade Wilson, somebody from the Komitet Gosudarstvennoi Bezopestnosti on the line for you !

Happy days indeed, just off to the IMF for another bail out loan. Was it total incompetence or something more sinister ? We'll never know :E :E

What a beautiful aeroplane though ! Is there some Concorde pedigree there too ?

[engineer(retard)]

Lest we all be guilty of the rose tinted specs, and I admit to plagiarism in the following as I am far too young to have been involved.

Whilst a magnificent machine, as a development project TSR2 was out of control. The development of the engines, which were originally going to be an upgrade of the Olympus 200 was estimated to cost about £7.3m. By 1964 this cost had risen to £32m. The project management was all over the place, the prime BAC(Vickers) only having responsibility of about a third of the cost centre, the rest was split between various contracts direct from the Ministry, with some GFE.

This was a worse situation than the later Nimrod AEW because there was no single systems integrator or central project management. A lot of the technology was innovative and high risk with changes to specifications coming in isolation without consideration of the impact on other areas of development. No-one could get a handle on costs.

The post project lessons were incorporated into the Plowden report that led to collaboration on Concorde, Jaguar and Martel, with recommendations to buy from the US for systems that required considerable development. The Downey report followed shortly afterward, and we still feel the impact of that one in how military projects are managed today.

Regards

Retard

[MadamBreakneck]

"Whilst a magnificent machine, as a development project TSR2 was out of control. "

We're not cooing at the project management, nor the procurement management, but at the machine.

TSR2 was being built back in the days of the so-called cost-plus contract. Two sides to that coin: suppliers had to justify their costs to MOD(PE) and then got paid a contracted amount over; in return MOD(PE) seemed to feel they could ask for anything they wanted AND to change any decision they had made previously about what they wanted - which of course cost them, plus a bit. As I understood it at the time, there was supposed to be central project management, but by Government - their incompetence at that cannot be blamed on the contractors nor the engineers.

I was not involved in Nimrod, but have been told similar problems occurred inasmuch as MOD asked the impossible, then decided to buy something different from our friends abroad.

Me bitter? Nah. Those projects recycled a lot of tax money, and paid a lot of peoples' mortgages, and fed and educated their kids.

MadamB

[Rocket2]

When a mere school kid I did a project on aircraft. BAC (as was) sent me a photo of this most magnificent of aircraft in response to my request for help, never thought anything of it but still have it to this day. Many years ago I was fortunate to meet Bee at an Oxford Uni' lecture & I took the photo along to get his autograph, the picture is identical to the painting shown (if someone can give me a site to post it on I'll gladly scan it for all to see). His lecture was fantastic & the poor man had tears in his eyes when talking about TSR-2, bless him. Now, look carefully at the picture (or my photo if possible), the airbrakes are unlocked, BAC never could cure that & as a result it is the only aircraft to go through the sound barrier with its airbrakes open (Bee's words), it also easily out accelerated the Lightning chase aircraft from where the picture was taken.
There were many teething problems (as is expected) that could not be resolved before the axe fell, the undercarriage problems are legendery having to land many times with the bogies not trimming to the landing position (ie seemingly on tip-toe), but another less known was that the many fuel pumps apparently resonated at the same frequency of the eye balls (didn't / don't understand that) which caused the crews vision to blurr during the take-off run when all were selected on.

[engineer(retard)]

Madame

The original post was "Anyone remember this and why it failed?"

I was trying to answer the question.

Regards

Retard

[BikerMark]

Ah! TSR2 - I saw it fly through the school window. I got told off for not concentrating on the lesson (either French or History, neither of which I excelled at), but it was one of the best value tellings off I ever had.

Blimey, that is low level! Did you have time to open the window?

It would have been a tricky manouevre at our school, we only had windows on one side of the classroom.

;) :ok:

[ORAC]

My father worked on the electrical generation system. It was state of the art and right up against the limit, they could not squeeze one more volt from - but every day someone came around asking for a few more....

The thought came to mind of the the old american sitcom (Gabor?) where they had to work out what they could afford to plug in/turn on at one time in case they tripped the lot.

He said they all breathed a big sigh of relief when it was cancelled....

[wub]

This is the 2nd protoype, which was days from flying before cancellation. The machine was being moved from Henlow to Cosford in 1975.

http://www.pbase.com/glenns/image/31580180.jpg
http://www.pbase.com/glenns/image/31580182.jpg

[foldingwings]

IIRC, did its demise not have something to do with, or was it not connected directly with, Duncan Sandys' (in)famous statement about the demise of the manned aircraft.

Here we are, 40 years on, and still drawing our Flying Pay!

Labour Tw@s!!

[Seloco]

For those that may be interested, the TSR2 at Duxford is currently undergoing a major restoration and can be seen in all its stripped down glory in Hangar 5 (I think). Be it whole or in bits, it is still one awesome aeroplane.

[Dr Illitout]

One thing that has always puzzeled me about the TSR2. With those HUGE engines and tiny wings where were they going to put the fuel and bombs?. To me it looked a fine aircraft for dropping a hand granade on Guilford, but to go and fight the red hoards it looked a bit useless!!
The one thing that the TSR2 has done for us is to provide work for aviation journalists!. Every time a magazine runs a bit short of material they trot out another "The best aircraft we never had" artical!!. I can't wait for somebody to say "It's a good thing it was cancelled because......"
Rgds Dr. I.

[Nopax,thanx]

Good news for all you hobbyists out there is that Airfix are releasing a 1/72nd scale version this year - mine's on backorder!

[effortless]

I thought it was cancelled because US wouldn't give us Polaris if we didn't. Didn't Blue Streak go for the same reason. :confused:

[Yellow Sun]

One thing that has always puzzeled me about the TSR2. With those HUGE engines and tiny wings where were they going to put the fuel and bombs?. To me it looked a fine aircraft for dropping a hand granade on Guilford, but to go and fight the red hoards it looked a bit useless!!

Plenty of space for a WE177, which wasn't a very large weapon. I do recall being told once (at Wittering?) that the spec. for the 177 series was drawn up with the TSR2 in mind.

But back to the aircraft itself, I have little doubt that the airframe/engine combination would have met the performance targets. I would have had less confidence about the mission avionics. Maybe this is was foretold to some extent by ORAC snr.:

My father worked on the electrical generation system. It was state of the art and right up against the limit, they could not squeeze one more volt from - but every day someone came around asking for a few more....

The success of the project was predicated upon a mission avionics suite that did not exist when the prototype flew and given subsequent events was probably seriously over ambitious (shades here of Nimrod AEW?). An examination of the difficulties encountered with the F111 development, electronics not A&P, gives a fair indication of what we would have run up against in the turning TSR2 into an operational system. Could we have found the resources to do it?, would it have been cost effective? what other programmes would have had to be sacrificed to achieve it? I don't know the answers to those questions, but "feel" that the lower cost/risk option of the F111 must have looked very attractive.

The cancellation of the F111, well that's another, possibly even bigger, "what if?" We may well have had a very different air force if it had come into service, providing that we bought into the US development programme and didn't attempt to re-invent the wheel. Planning for the F111 was fairly advanced, personnel to fill key posts were identified, as one of my Vulcan sqn cdrs said to a captain who was complaining about a posting "What have you got to bitch about? They told me I was getting the F111 OCU!"

I would have loved to have seen TSR2 succeed, but I fear that the odds were stacked against it, technologically, economically and politically.

YS

[Maple 01]

IIRC, did its demise not have something to do with, or was it not connected directly with, Duncan Sandys' (in)famous statement about the demise of the manned aircraft.

Here we are, 40 years on, and still drawing our Flying Pay!

Labour Tw@s!!

Errrrr Sandys was a Conservative - Conservative tw@ts!:ok:

[ORAC]

TSR2 avionics bay

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/427452/2/istockphoto_TSR2_avionics_bay_427452

[engineer(retard)]

Would not have met the spec...nothing is painted black.

[Argonautical]

quote

TSR2 - the best aeroplane the RAF never had.

end quote

I would like to put forward the Martin-Baker MB5.

Any more ?

[Cambridge Crash]

Now there are scurrilous rumours that a certain SofS of the time was not allowed to see documents classified above Confidential...something to do about his alleged connections with Philby, Burgess, McLean, Blunt, Cairncross. Now this is a particularly fantastic rumour which we should all dismiss and clearly unrelated to the swingeing cuts to the Defence Vote - especially of capability-enhancing programmes - that occured under his leadership.

Now the F1-11. The (planned) delivery of these aircraft did correspond to the warming of relations with USSR (Brandt's Ostpolitic), Prague Spring notwithstanding. The Soviet Air Force - especially GBAD - contrary to popular opinion, was in a parlous state. The negotiations for SALT...(pause whilst VC-10 goes over my study in Cambridge)...were presaged with considerable negotiations wherein the USSR attempted to have US Naval and CONUS based ac included in the count - this is long, long before the CFE treaty. Some allied documents allude to Soviet threats to deploy IRBM to counter allied ac superiority; 50-odd RAF F1-11s would have been a major strategic shift in Europe; perhaps the UK government accepted that these aircraft could be bargained away?

Now we know? (appologies to Gaddes).

CC

[L J R]

If we had the TSR2 in the late '60s/early '70s (and therefore NOT the Tornado by now) we would have replaced it (the TSR-2) in the mid '90s with the F-15E, and we would all now be very happy!

[Safeware]

One of my 'leads' at Cranditz was the Defence Studies project - did TSR2 awesome aircraft which gave birth, either directly or indirectly to a lot of the technology used in subsequent aircraft.

However, as for LJR, If we had the TSR2 in the late '60s/early '70s (and therefore NOT the Tornado by now) we would have replaced it (the TSR-2) in the mid '90s with the F-15E, and we would all now be very happy!
I think that we all know there would be no Tornado GR, hence no F3, TSR2 would still be in service (look at Tornado GR4 - now going on to 2018) and, with no F3 we would have been looking at getting an AD aircraft of a much earlier generation than Typhoon so no Typhoon, and living with that until about 2030 or later. Everyone happy now?

sw

[Heimdall]

IMHO a whole host of individuals were responsible for the death of TSR-2. In the end runaway costs killed the project, those costs were caused by many factors but a considerable amount were the result of some very odd specifications and those can be laid firmly at certain men in light blue.

For a longer explaination see:

www.spyflight.co.uk/tsr2.htm

Heimdall

[Pontius Navigator]

Yellow Sun is quite right. The WE177 was designed for the TSR2 which could carry not one but two of the beasts. Designed release was mach 1.2 at 50 feet. Now that might not be low but at that speed it is not exactly high.

At one and the same time Bomber Command has both TSR2 and F111 teams! The former probably slow to disband; the latter working up. They were different personnel possibly because of the potential for split loyalties.

The TSR2 was planned to use SLAR which was a major departure from the Vs but one that RRE had been playing with for some time. Problem with SLAR is that you were not getting a fix in real time but had to look at a stored image. A perceived problem was in-flight fix point interpretation. The high definition available was far superior than much 'better' radars years later.

To help fix-point identification JARIC tried making 3 dimensional models of the fix-points and then photographing them at the right angle so that they would resemble the real fix-point. It was like something out of Blue Peter with pipe cleaners and other bits stuck to card and paper.

A sod to service, expensive as hell, and as high a risk as you could think of. One reason why a nervous labour government cancelled the project.

[Blacksheep]

...Lord Louis Mountbatten, an over-promoted charlatan... Its nice to know that one is not alone in one's opinion. :ok:

[BEagle]

Whilst attempting to struggle through 237 OCU on the Buccaneer, I was on leave at a friend's place at Broadlands and was introduced to Mountbottom. He asked what I did and I told him I was on the Bucc. "Fine naval aeroplane" he pontificated. "Not a patch on the TSR2 which we should have had instead", I told him. Or rather, following a rather liquid lunch, I think I said that it was "killed off by incompetent idiots".....


He then went to talk to someone else.

:E

[SmilingKnifed]

The accounts of the Dieppe raid seemingly say enough for Mountbatten's judgment. One of his infamous quotes being that he couldn't recall having ever being wrong.

[pulse1]

Back in the late 60's I was privileged to be drinking with a group of RAF test pilots from Boscombe Down. They were discussing the TSR2 and, as far as I recall, were unanimous in the view that it was scrapped because it did not have the required range, above Mach 1 at low level. The F111 was cancelled for the same reason.

The next best option was to fly subsonic and the Buccaneer was the best in the world at the time i.e lower, further, faster.

[Ian Corrigible]

Coincidentally, this link to a German website appeared on another forum earlier this week: Planes Pictures (http://www.planespictures.com/index.php?c=1&t=2).

The site contains some wonderful "what-if" artists impressions of the TSR2, including:

http://www.planespictures.com/data/2Britain/BAC%20TSR%202/TSR2_sc5.gif

http://www.planespictures.com/data/2Britain/BAC%20TSR%202/TSR2_sc7.gif

http://www.planespictures.com/data/2Britain/BAC%20TSR%202/TSR2_sc10.gif

http://www.planespictures.com/data/2Britain/BAC%20TSR%202/TSR2_sc11.gif

Full-size images available via the website.

I/C

[ChristopherRobin]

I saw 222 down at Duxford and it is an impressive looking machine - well worth a visit when it is restored. My real reason for going, though, was to see the SR-71 blackbird they have there. In 1964, as the TSR2 was being cancelled, A-12 blackbirds were already being flown by the CIA and the SR-71 was nearly finished. An interceptor version was built, but never went into production.

Built from titanium and flying at Mach 3.2+, not THAT was an aircraft!

But then, they had Kelly Johnson and we didn't.

[pr00ne]

Ah, that old beast of myth and legend the TSR-2!

Folk need to remove rose tinted spectacles, acquire some historical perspective, dispose of a whole load of political baggage and misinformation before they can truly appreciate the truth behind the TSR-2 and its cancellation.

The aeroplane was designed as a nuclear strike platform pure and simple in the days of the nuclear trip wire and massive nuclear retaliation. It had to have a supersonic over the target capability at high level and its long range requirement was due to Britains commitments in the Far East.

All this and an advanced radar and navigation/attack system made the design hugely complex. Add to this its appearance as a requirement at the time of Duncan Sandys twin hammer blows of no more manned combat aircraft ( the Lightning and the TSR-2 requirement were the only two to survive the 1957 White paper) and the desire to rationalise the UK aircraft industry and the recipe for disaster was set. The thing was a committee design, it was the only complex design left so everyone in the various Ministries involved wanted a piece of the pie. It was a compromise design from two companies, English Electric and Vickers who had to merge to form BAC to even get the contract, stories abound of meetings of 30 people to decide upon the position of a cockpit switch, not one of the 30 being a pilot or design engineer!

By the time it flew it had been overtaken by events, NATO had dropped the trip wire policy of massive nuclear retaliation and the UK had announced plans to withdraw from the Far East.

What was now required was a more flexible platform capable of carrying a good payload of conventional weapons from semi prepared strips, that was NOT TSR-2.

Costs were spiralling massively out of control and the technology was proving problematical and difficult to make work.

Apart from all of these problems it was cost that killed the project. The in power Conservative Government was already considering cancellation, as was the Chiefs of Staff committee before the 1964 General Election. Labour were returned and took over a broken backed economy with a huge balance of payments deficit, a massive sterling crisis and constant runs on the pound.
All public expenditure was reduced and defence took its share, the hopelessly impractical P1154 and HS681 were cancelled in a Defence White paper but TSR-2 was not, though it was looking increasingly unaffordable for a buy of even just 50 Wilson and Healey tried to keep it going.
Another run on the pound and worse than expected monetary figures forced their hand and TSR-2 was cancelled in the 1965 budget speech to parliament.

There was no conspiracy, there was no hidden agenda, the economy was in a mess, requirements were changing, the world was changing.

There WERE those in the new Labour Government who were bitterly opposed to the TSR-2, the Principal Scientific Advisor to the Prime Minister being the most vocal and committed, but it was killed by finances (following 13 years of Tory rule!) and the dire state of the UK economy. Its eventual planned replacement the F-111K was also eventually cancelled following the devaluation of the pound and a deepening of the economic woes the UK faced.

This led to Buccaneer being adopted for the RAF and was eventually followed by Tornado after a few false starts with things like AFVG and UKVG. Would we have been any better off if TSR-2 had survived? I doubt it. There would have been no European collaboration, no Tornado and a huge production gap in the industry.

[BEagle]

Pr00ne,

You are talking utter crap.

Oh - and by the way, Bliar OUT!

You may not know it makes sense, but everyone else does!

[pr00ne]

BEagle,

Tough pal, thats how it happened.

[ACW418]

Proone

I am not sure you are right on the cancellation of the TSR2. My recollection is that it was done for within a couple of weeks of the election success. It had been mooted by Wilson during the campaign.

Now I recognise that I was a mere youth (Vulcan co-pilot) with no real interest in politics at the time but I had a real interest in flying the aircraft so I am fairly sure that it happened very quickly. We had suffered weeks of disruption moving the entire station at Coningsby to Cottesmore and the chop happened very shortly after we had moved - November 1964.

ACW

[pr00ne]

ACW418

No, sorry.

Labour were elected on 15th October 1964. The first Labour budget was on 1st November 1964.
The Defence White paper of February 1965 announced the cancellation of the P1154 and the HS681.
In the 2nd Labour Budget on 6th April 1965 the cancellation of TSR-2 was announced.

[BEagle]

...which suited your fellow-travellers very well, thanks to Comrades Wislon and Healey.

[pr00ne]

BEagle,

Of course it did, I mean, with the UK Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the pay of the KGB the USSR had such an advantage did it not?

So why the hell are we still here and the USSR long gone?

Absolute poppycock!

[BEagle]

Methinks he doth protest too much...............

[lasernigel]

I like Madame B also remember it flying over my school one break time with a Lightning either side as escort.(Claremont Sec Mod BTW).Never forget how even the most notorious hooligans in the school looked up.
Living in Blackpool as a kid in the '60's had some benefits!!With Warton down the road and the Irish sea as a test place plenty of interesting things were seen during my teens.

IMHO it was a great plane and when/if the whole truth about the cancellation comes out it will at last be vindicated.

[Pontius Navigator]

ACW 418 see PM please.

[pr00ne]

BEagle,

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

If you must use quotes from Hamlet, at least try and get the Bards words right!

lasernigel,

WHAT will be vindicated?

The truth is all out there, all open source and in the public domain, just a shame it doesen\'t fit every conspiracy theory and schoolboys memory.

[engineer(retard)]

Here is some of the open domain stuff with a link and selected cuttings. First time I've agreed with pr00ne - the truth is out there but it depends on where you look and what you want to believe. I prefer this version to his one.

http://www.pilotfriend.com/general_interest/potty%20aircraft/TSR2.htm

The then-Conservative government was in serious trouble; a general election was looming for the end of the year and Labour were widely expected to win. Obviously BAC hoped that presenting the new government with a flying prototype would put some firmer foundations under the troubled project.

The second prototype would never fly; the government, in the Budget Day announcement on the 6th of April 1965, announced that the TSR.2 programme was to be terminated immediately.
While the management of BAC were informed before the budget speech was made, they were forbidden to tell their employees, who then had to hear the news on the radio. The House of Commons was in uproar over the cancellation; but no debate could take place during the budget speech so not only had the government treated BAC's workforce with contempt, they had tried to slip a major defence project cancellation past the opposition.

A debate one week later in the house was a rough ride for Dennis Healey (the new Defence Minister), who tried to justify the cancellation on the basis that the F-111 could be bought more cheaply, though he could not state a cost or exact timescale for the buy.

Healey has since stated that getting American backing for an International Monetary Fund loan was not a reason behind the British order for the F-111 instead of continuing the TSR.2 programme. However, the TSR.2 was certainly a serious worry to the Americans, being vastly more capable than the F-111 and could have made a serious dent in the F-111's export prospects. A denial from a politician, as the TSR.2 programme showed on numerous individual occasions, is not worth the paper they refuse to write it on.

[buoy15]

Did anyone ever find out why that card carrying Commie tw*t Wilson suddenly resigned overnight without a sniff of media interest?

30 year rule, FOI etc, - I think we should be told !!

[pr00ne]

engineer(retard),

WHAT F-111 export prospects? The RAF cancelled their order for 50 when devaluation was forced on the Govt and the Aussies only ordered a mere 24 after Mountbatten effectively sabotaged the prospects of TSR-2 to the Australian Govt.

I doubt the TSR-2 gave the US a worry for a second!

[Pontius Navigator]

Buoy 15, I was flying with a junior Navy Minister on a Cod War sortie when Derek Murgatroyd loged the radio announcement. The minister looked as if he had been punched and retired to the galley to ponder his future.

I heard that Wilson resigned because of illness. I think he had been told he was suffering from senil dementia and decided to jump before the news got out. Just like Blair didn't.

[pr00ne]

buoy15,

Harold Wilson resigned 5 days after his 60th birthday in 1976, a date he had decided on during 1974. He was an exhaustd and very ill man, he had beeen diagnosed as suffering from cancer of the colon.

No media interest? Get back in your box where you belong, it was headline news and interrupted programmes with a newsflash on all then TV channels there were. It was the biggest story for months.

[engineer(retard)]

pr00ne

I have not been able to find any open source material to substantiate your claim about devaluation. But since we're on open source, I found this:

After the cancellation of the BAC TSR2 in 1965 the RAF was left without an adequate Canberra replacement, and plans to buy the American F111 were quickly dropped after a detailed examination of the aircraft.

I do not believe everything I read and that comment was unreferenced.

However, from "The Management of Projects" by Peter W G Morris:

A strategic bomber version of the F1-11 was developed from 1964 (the FB-111A) going into production in 1968. Flyaway costs rose dramatically, largely because of development difficulties with the engines and avionics, cost overruns on the bomber being particualrly severe.

So the US starts development of a bomber in 64, the UK cancels its own in 65, the replacement comes in over budget in 68 and the UK cancels that order. What do you read into that?

Regards

Retard

[BEagle]

So you're a lady, are you?

Surprised you've got so much time off from canvassing for that tit Bliar and his lying cohorts to send so much time on PPRuNe, proone....

[pr00ne]

engineer(retard),

Devaluation in 1967 was a fact, I remember it well!

The F-111 order for the RAF was cancelled in 1968 after being placed in 1965, I'd hardly call that "quickly dropped"

The RAF was not left without a potential Canberra replacement at all, after TSR-2, which was started in 1959, came F-111K, after that came the AFVG, after that came the UKVG, after that came Buccaneer and eventually MRCA.

BEagle,

I was being a tad pedantic.

You will not find me canvassing for Blair old chap as I have no time for the man, I was all for him in 1997, not now and especially not since Iraq in 2003.

I have never supported him personally and I hope for a Labour victory on May 5th but with a reduced majority and a push then to replace Blair sooner rather than later in that term.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Sorry prOOne have to agree largely with BEags. I think a good deal of what you say is probably correct but I would draw your attention to Roland Beamont's film, which he made and expressly says that Jenkins, Healy and Callaghan were instrumental in destroying TSR2.

The government used as an excuse that it was too complex an aeroplane. In the event this was utter nonsense. A price of £750m was stated for a run of 150 aircraft, a similar number of F-111's was quoted at £450m. The RAAF probably paid three times that amount after all the bugs had been eliminated years later.

I use a quote "The crowning stroke of political perfidy was the order to destroy immediately all the jigs and cease flying the prototype unless BAC was prepared to meet all costs." The continuance of the TSR2 programme would have sustained the work force for years and the invaluable data from the tests and would have been especially valuable for Concorde. A senior BAC official is said to have pointed out that "such tests would be embarrassing for the government when they revealed the true measure of TSR2's superiority over the F- 111!"

It is on record that Jenkins blamed Healy, Healy blamed the other two and all ended up not knowing what the hell they had actually done!

'Bee' Beamont told me that had TSR2 been completed there would have been no need for Tornado (I'm sorry I am repeating this) but the fact is that TSR2 had a lot going for it and 'Bee' also stated that it would have reached M2.8 or better.

[engineer(retard)]

pr00ne

Attention to detail old chap "quickly dropped" does not appear anywhere in my post.

Also after the Canberra comment I wrote "I do not believe everything I read and that comment was unreferenced."

I still have not seen any substantiation of your claims that you say are open source. Given the ructions over the TSR2 cancellation, to order an American replacement in the same year would have been crass. Especially given the power of the unions at that time and that its replacement was still in development.

As for dropping it, do you not believe the high unit cost of the aircraft in production in 68 was as much a factor in cancellation as devaluation in 67.

regards

Retard

[M609]

Found this:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/747978/L/

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/745925/L/

[pr00ne]

engineer(retard)

Afraid it does old chap!

Second line of your second paragraph on your post time dated at 27th April 2302 reads;

“After the cancellation of the BAC TSR2 in 1965 the RAF was left without an adequate Canberra replacement, and plans to buy the American F111 were quickly dropped after a detailed examination of the aircraft.”

Anyway.........................


An option on the F-111K was actually secured before the TSR-2 cancellation was announced.

High unit cost had already reduced the order to a mere 50, the ever worsening economic situation that led to the cancellation of TSR-2 in 1965 also led to cancellation of F-111K in 1968. The F-111 was also in big technical trouble in 68 and that must have contributed but I firmly beleive it was an economic decision based on the state of the UK economy rather than the cost of the F-111.

[Omark44]

I'm sure I read somewhere that Mrs Healy was a card carrying member of the Communist party? (and long after it fell out of vogue with the then younger set!), but, of course, she wouldn't have tried to influence her husband, would she?

I might buy the Labour promoted story that the cancellation was on ecomomic grounds had they not ordered the destruction of the tools and jigs etc. that was just sheer spite and a precursor to the swingeing defence cuts of 1967. Labour have always put welfare before defence, always will, even though the threat from the East in the sixties was considerable.

PrOOne, a bit more information about the Far East if you please, where would TSR2 have been based, Singapore, Brunei? You mention the requirement for a long range capability, what 'enemies' would these be then that were so far away yet presented a real threat to the West and could not have been dealt with by the USA who were already well established in the far east both on land, at sea and under the sea ?

[engineer(retard)]

Pr00ne

First point accepted, but as I stated it was from an open source quote that I did not believe.

So from your explanation, the governement of the day ordered the F1-11 before announcing the cancellation of the TSR-2 without informing industry, the workforce, the opposition or the general public.

Before this thread, I had believed that the TSR2 debacle was the result of poor project management by the ministries of the day. However, the slant that you put on it points to gross underhand political machinations. Heads should have rolled for this.

Regards

retard

[BEagle]

It was a combination of:

Absurdly complicated project management.
Underhand left wing socialist politicians.
Mountbottom's biased anti-RAF opinion.

The only good thing apart from the a/c itself was the hard work put in by the work force and Bee's flight test team!

[Zoom]

Ah, ATRIXO, such innocence! Atrixo - isn't that a hand cream?

We had a good go at this subject 2 or 3 years ago but I can't find the thread anymore.

Was not the devaluation in question brought about by our dropping the gold standard and, therefore, the exchange rate pegged at about $2.78 to the £? I seem to remember it dropped instantly to $2.4 to the £.

Setting aside my jingoistic tendencies and my emotions, I still feel that the best option for the RAF would have been the F-111, which would have fulfilled the strike, attack and recce roles ably. I just can't see the TSR2 making any kind of a tactical turn at any level whereas the F-111 had reasonable turning ability and still had decent performance with a fair range. (Sorry, not very specific there.) I can't remember what the AD options would have been, but the Lightning would have been replaced in the late 70s/early 80s - probably by something other than the F-4 and possibly a Euro-mess. The F-111 would have been phased out in the late 90s in favour of a different Euro-mess. There would have been no RAF F-4s or Buccaneers, no Jaguars, Tornadoes (both types) or Typhoons. We would all be moaning instead about other costly, ineffective white elephants.

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

<<<
Was not the devaluation in question brought about by our dropping the gold standard and, therefore, the exchange rate pegged at about $2.78 to the £? I seem to remember it dropped instantly to $2.4 to the £.
>>>

Not really. The UK left the gold standard for the last time (having previously left it in WWI) 35 or so years before the 1967 devaluation from $2.80 to $2.40. The devaluation was caused mainly by pressure on the reserves, which were having to be spent like there was no tomorrow in order to defend the high value of sterling.

Moving on, I always felt there was too little attention (compared with the TSR-2 and P.1154) paid to what we may have lost with the HS681 cancellation. However, I find information about the HS681 pretty hard to come by. Can anyone say something about what it was like, designed to do etc., or direct me to a website ? I understand it was like a C-17, 30 years before the C-17 was designed.... Thanks.

[ORAC]

NATO had 2 two aircraft requirements for VSTOL aircraft.

NBMR 3 called for a lightweight, single-role, VTOL strike aircraft capable of carrying a single nuclear weapon on a short-range tactical mission. It had to be able to take off and land vertically on unprepared fields near the FEBA.

NBMR 4 asked for a VTOL tactical transport aircraft in the C130 class able to support NBMR 3 in the field.

Britain, France, the USA and Germany all put effort into NBMR 3 but only Britain put design effort into NBMR 4.

The requirement for NBMR 3 evolved into the Kestrel. The NBMR 4 evolved into the HS681.

[lasernigel]

The truth is all out there, all open source and in the public domain, just a shame it doesen\'t fit every conspiracy theory and schoolboys memory.

Refering to the programme PPRuNe Pop mentions.Denis Healey was asked again and again as to who ordered,what to me and others can only term as spiteful vandalism,the destruction of all jigs and planes excepting the survivor.His reply was vague to say the least and that information IS NOT in the public domain.

[BEagle]

Quite true, lasernigel. The identity of the criminal responsible for ordering the wanton destruction of all TSR2 drawings, jigs, part-constructed airframes and other items has never been revealed in the public domain.

But BAC were pretty spineless to go along with it so complicitly - they should have stood their ground against such government intimidation.


Things were so bad in the mid to late-60s under those lefty loonies Wislon. Brown, Healey et al that serious talk was in the air of a coup to sling the buggers out of office.

[Skylark4]

Just how far could the TSR2 have flown? looking at the pictures now I can't see that it could have carried a great deal of fuel.

Mike W

[GeeRam]

In the autumn of 1962 BAC gave estimated performance figures. How true these would have been is another matter of course. But, they included a cruising speed of 0.9M-1.1M at sea level and 2.05M at altitude. Combat radius with external fuel would be 1500nms or 1000nms with a 2000lb internal bomb load on internal fuel only. Initial rate of climb would be around 50,000ft/min with a service ceiling of 60,000ft.

Presumably with it’s dedicated recce fit it’s likely that TSR.2 could well of been still in service today in the recce role instead of the PR.9 Canberra that will soon be gone with no suitable replacement on the horizon. With those performance figures only the SR-71 would have had it beat in the recce role I pressume.

As an insane idea:D, perhaps British Airways/HM Govt. should have handed over the Concorde fleet to the RAF for re-configuring in the high-altitude high speed recce role……….with the Blackbird gone, nothing else would have had that high altitude, longish range, sustained high speed capability?

[L J R]

G-Ram, I'm sure the range performance figures of 1-1500 miles were NOT at a sustained Mach1+at low altitude (Only the B-1A could do that and the fuel load of that jet was greater than the weight of the TSR.) Not sure about Backfire or Blackjack though. B1B greater range but not at supersonic speed either. In the '70s, me thinks that MRCA was planned to go all the way there and back at Mach1 BUT sadly struggles at <M0.9 if it needs range. My point is be cautious when the sales brochure quotes performance stats, they are rarely right, and despite test pilots 'loving' the aircraft, the performance graphs need to be examined in terms of overall combat performance & weapon delivery AT RANGE.

[GeeRam]

My point is be cautious when the sales brochure quotes performance stats, they are rarely right, and despite test pilots 'loving' the aircraft, the performance graphs need to be examined in terms of overall combat performance & weapon delivery AT RANGE.

Which is exactly why I wrote,
How true these would have been is another matter of course.;)

[TheBeeKeeper]

I commend a book to you all...(if you can get hold of a copy!)

"TSR2 - Pheonix or Folly?"

A right riveting read, tells of the storys of when flight test schedules were slightly more liberal. And the transit flight from Boscombe to Warton when the TSR2 out ran a Lightning T4, using one engine max dry and the other with reheat.

Also tells of the day that the project was scrapped, the second aircraft due to take to the skies had an actuator problem in the morning, test crew drove off to the cricket club for tea and watched the budget on television..... raced back to BD when they heard of its misfortune hoping to get the second aircraft to take to the skies. But alas, the ground crew were ordered to bolt crop through the avionics looms..... an order which ultimately came from the US, which included burning all documentations and destroying any jigs to make the aircraft! Not suggesting that our coalition partners were ever so slightly paranoid that the UK were producing a world beating aircraft.....

TBK

[pr00ne]

PPRuNe Pop,

Beaumont was too close and too passionate a TSR-2 supporter to be a reliable source on its demise.
It WAS far too complex, partly as a result of a ridiculous high level supersonic requirement that was the one of the main reasons the RAF constantly turned its nose up at the Buccaneer.
As for destruction of jigs and tools, this happened on many projects and not just the TSR-2, when the Avro 730 supersonic bomber was cancelled the nearly complete fuselage was cut up and used as waste bins in the Woodford plant!
Jigs and tools are expensive, when a project is canned there is no justification in retaining or maintaining them, scrap is the only way of realising any value from them. If there was such a high level conspiracy to destroy all evidence of the TSR-2 how come there are two complete examples still in existence today?

engineer(retard)
Open source from Cabinet papers and Chiefs of staff committee meeting minutes, far too many too quote on here.
The option on F-111K was secured so as to not be held to ransom by the US over pricing after TSR-2 cancellation. In the Defence white paper of February 1965 it was openly stated that TSR-2 was going to be reviewed against the F-111 as a potential cheaper and less costly alternative.

Omark44,
Have a close look at the Tory and Labour record on defence budgets before making such a claim. The Labour Defence White paper of 1965 actually increased defence expenditure over that planned by the Tories in 1964.
Prior to the withdrawal from east of Suez the RAF had a much larger frontline in the Far East than it did in Germany. TSR-2 would have been based at RAF Tengah in Singapore. Indonesian confrontation was still ongoing at the time and Chinese intentions were far from clear.
After the announcement of the withdrawal from the Far East Healey talked of basing F-111Ks in Australia and there were plans for a very large base in the Indian Ocean.

BEagle,
Coup in the mid sixties as things were so bad? What nonsense, Labour were elected in October 1964 with a majority of 4 on 44% of the vote. In the General election of March 1966 that majority was increased to 98 with a Labour party share of 48% of the vote. Things were plainly NOT so bad for the majority of the British public.
The Wilson Govt inherited a Balance of payments deficit of over £800m, that was down to £270m by 1968.

[PPRuNe Pop]

PrOOne,

Sorry but you are wrong to shove the matter of the jigs and tools into the same bin as the hundreds of others were put. At the time of the phones calls Roland Beamont (not Beaumont) had requested that as 200 was ready to fly that they got into air as soon as possible. This was turned down out of hand. All in the space of minutes!

It WAS indisputably a political matter and if you care to use Google you will find that the BAC site confirms it in no small detail. It was as I said done without thought or consideration and done in the most expiditious way possible. Well I suppose you can say 'thought' quite easily - just one thought - get it done before someone changes their mind.

It was even a POLITICAL move that placed the other prototypes on the Shoeburyness bombing range to be destroyed! It was a vicious and despicable action of politics.

[pr00ne]

PPRuNe Pop,

I may indeed be attempting to defend the indefensible. Still think far too much is made of it though, it didn't work did it? They did go on to order the F-111K, surely the decision would have come from Civil servants and not politicians?

[BEagle]

It did work!

It was killed by the Labour government.

Yet another occasion when the licking of American backsides by lying Labour politicians was a national scandal.

NEVER trust ANY Labour politician.....

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Surely you mean...........ANY politician? Although the current lot seem worse than most.

PS If Mountbatten had so much influence over the 1960s Labour Government, then how come they scrapped the carriers?

[pr00ne]

BEagle,

I actually meant the plan to have it destroyed and consigned to oblivion didn't work and that far too much is made of the instruction to destroy prototypes and tooling.

If the Tories had won the Oct 1964 election they would have cancelled it too. The party of Duncan Sandys and "no more manned aircraft" did FAR more damage to the UK aerospace industry than Labour ever did.

As to it working, how do you know?

WEBF,

Mountbatten had NO influence over the 1960's Labour Govt.

He just went around bad mouthing the TSR-2 when ever he got the chance and did a lot of damage to the campaign to sell it to the Aussies, who went on to order the F-111.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

If the RN and RAF had worked together on post WWII projects.....who knows?

[pr00ne]

WEBF,
Actually there was a huge opportunity here. In 1969 the two principal fixed wing combat aircraft of the FAA were entering service with the RAF; the Buccaneer and the Phantom. Labour had announced the abandonment of fixed wing airpower in 1966 ( a huge mistake in my opinion before anybody starts!) and the Tory opposition was beside itself with rage at the decision. When they were elected to power in 1970 they did NOTHING to reverse this decision. IF the Conservative party had been as good as its word then the potential was huge. Eagle and Ark Royal were in service, as were Hermes and the Commando carriers, Harrier was just joining the RAF along with decent quantities of Buccaneers and Phantoms.
The opportunity was there in 1970 for a joined up cohesive approach to maritime airpower involving both services with the equipment then in service and for a collaborative development of replacement programmes.

They did absolutely diddly squat!

It even took a LABOUR Government to actually order the Sea Harrier in 1975 after years of Tory indecision and refusal to fund the project.

[althenick]

Pr00ne,

Funny you should mention it but a form jointery did indeed happen from '69 onwards. 767 sqn RN disbanded and became The training squadron for the RAF and FAA, 1/2 of all the pilots on 892 sqn RN were light blue.

In the book 'Buccaneer' There is a story of FAA buccaneers being handed to the RAF and then being handed back to the FAA to replace losses.

I was told by an ex-WAFU that it wasn't unusual to see gannets flying AEW in place of the Shack's at Lossie.

809 sqn - based at Honington with RAF Buccs.
892 sqn - based at leuchars with RAF Tooms
849 sqn - based at Lossie with shacks as they shared the same RADAR and (I think) engine (but not sure)

All of this makes perfect sense and I dare say a lot more could have been done to make it more efficient, sad that it didn't continue when the FAA got SHAR. I would wager that had this happened the FAA would be sitting pretty with an AD variant of GR7.

[moggiee]

My late mother-in-law was an un-civil servant at the MoD when it was scrapped. She had to shred the plans and was in tears for the whole time she did it.

If you read Peter wright's "Spycatcher" he claims that Wilson and Healey were under Soviet orders to trash the project. The subsequent cancelling of the F111 order fits the bill, too.

[ShyTorque]

>Jigs and tools are expensive, when a project is canned there is no justification in retaining or maintaining them, scrap is the only way of realising any value from them.<

Jigs and tools ARE expensive but only because of the man hours spent in their design and accurate production. The scrap value is tiny in proportion.

[BEagle]

It might be convenient maskirovka to blame the Yanks for pressuring TSR2 cancellation and scrapping, but it was the loonie lefty Wislon misgovernment which did the deed. And, pr00ne, Mountbottom's meddling interference with something his simpleton's brain couldn't even begin to comprehend most certainly would have influenced the closet commies in power towards the cancellation - on the grounds that, if even the defence chief didn't believe in TSR2, why should anyone else..

Talking of lying Labour politicians, it was very interesting to read the Sunday Times today: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1593607,00.html

Elsewhere in the Sunday Times it states that UK military support for Mad George adventurism was pledged by Tony the Poodle when he went over to lick Dubya's bottom at his ranch in Apr 2002.

If for no other reason than their lies and deceit over Iraq, the wretched spin-ridden Labour government deserves to be soundly kicked out on the 5th!

[engineer(retard)]

Pr00ne

I refer to one of your earlier posts

"An option on the F-111K was actually secured before the TSR-2 cancellation was announced."

and a later one

"The option on F-111K was secured so as to not be held to ransom by the US over pricing after TSR-2 cancellation. In the Defence white paper of February 1965 it was openly stated that TSR-2 was going to be reviewed against the F-111 as a potential cheaper and less costly alternative."

As I mentioned earlier, to secure the option before the review sounds to me like the decision had already been made. All this prior to the budget announcement and without discussion with industry and the opposition stinks. Then to cancel the option because of rising F-111 costs, having secured a price is a first order magnitude balls up.

Your even later statement to Pop is extremely naive, I cannot believe that you think this is true:

"They did go on to order the F-111K, surely the decision would have come from Civil servants and not politicians?"


Regards

Retard

[NoHoverstop]

At the time of the phones calls Roland Beamont (not Beaumont) had requested that as 200 was ready to fly that they got into air as soon as possible. This was turned down out of hand. All in the space of minutes!

Forgive me as someone who is not military aircrew for straying into this forum, but are you suggesting that thowing brand-new jets into the air, in a hurry, against a highly-charged emotional background and for no sensible reason (given that the programme has just been cancelled) is the sort of thing you'd reasonably expect to get authorisation for? I know "they did things differently" in the 60s but as someone who's been involved in test flying for some time I can only imagine the fun that potential Auths would have in getting as far away from the scene of the crime as possible. At the time the TSR2 was riddled with problems, some of them flight-safety related, not unexpectedly for a new aircraft. The second jet had fallen off its transporter whilst being delivered and I suspect that few people involved in getting it ready to fly were quite as relaxed as they would like to have been, given the pressure on the programme. Sounds like ample room for doubts concerning the acceptability of taking the risk of flying, and of course "if there is doubt then there is no doubt" that refusing permission to fly was exactly the right thing to do.

[pr00ne]

moggiee,

The F-111 order was cancelled in 1968 following devaluation of the pound brought on by the sterling crisis. It was part of a package of cuts in public expenditure of £750m insisted on by the IMF as of conditions for a £1.4b loan. As a nation we were virtually bankrupt in 1968, the economic disaster of 13 years of Tory rule made worse by constant runs on the pound and the 1967 Arab-Israeli war.
If Wilson and Healey were under Soviet orders don’t you think we would have seen something a little more dramatic and significant than the cancellation of TSR-2 six months after they came to power and F-111K 4 years after? Why would they even have ordered the F-111K if they were Soviet stooges, why continue with the Polaris programme, why stay in NATO, why order Phantoms, Harriers, Nimrods, Hercules, Jaguars etc etc etc? Come on!

Beagle,

Michael Howard was castigating Tony Blair in the House of Commons for not going in to Iraq earlier! Do you really think there would have been a shred of difference of he was in power? He supported and indeed pushed for the war before March 2003, he supported the war during it and he supports the war now, his political opportunism stinks of desperation and a man totally shorn of political ideas or genuine alternatives.

Engineer(retard),

The F-111K option was secured AFTER the review not before or during. It was done for commercial reasons. The F-111K order was cancelled nearly FOUR years later!

[buoy15]

I don't see many threads mentioning the fact the RAF kept changing the spec, creating delay and overspend.

The RAF did the same with the Belfast.
It was supposed to carry an "army package"; that was changed to carry a tank.

By the time Shorts had beefed up the floor and moved bits around they could just squeeze in a Ferret Scout car.
That ac did have some success and made a profit after being sold to Air Cargo

The F111 cancellation penalty of £m400 came from the "contingency fund" similar to the one Maggie had for the Falklands.

Where does this contingency fund show up on the books, how much is stashed away in there and is it fed by Greedy Gordon's stealth tax policy?

We should be told!

[BEagle]

"If Wilson and Healey were under Soviet orders don’t you think we would have seen something a little more dramatic and significant than the cancellation of TSR-2 six months after they came to power and F-111K 4 years after? Why would they even have ordered the F-111K if they were Soviet stooges, why continue with the Polaris programme, why stay in NATO, why order Phantoms, Harriers, Nimrods, Hercules, Jaguars etc etc etc? Come on!"

Of those, only TSR2 and F-111K posed a credible threat to the USSR from UK. So, cancel TSR2, then slowly ease out of the F-111K programme.......

A 'dramatic and sudden' move by Wislon and Healey would have been far more obvious and easy to challenge, whereas gradual erosion of the RAF's capability was less so....

And do I trust Howard more than Blair? Most certainly. I'd trust anyone more than Bliar or any of the other Labour slimeballs currently in power.

But will sufficient people show their disfavour of the Labour Liars on Thursday? Somehow I doubt it... But one can but hope!

[buoy15]

Beags

I think I have a feel for your persuasions

How marvellous would it be if Bliar, Strawman and Greedy G, all lost their seats?

Heaven!!

Here's hoping intelligent voters, with integrity, honesty and trust, can "cross out" this arrogant, deceitful, PC ridden, self seeking bunch of gravy train liars and "cross in" a team who will stand up to EU and salvage what's very little left of this once "Great Britain"

I can only imagine that HM the Queen, without voice, must be thinking to herself, " What on earth is going on, Iv'e no control!"

By the way, yesterday in 1599, commemorated Oliver Cromwell
who did away, at the time, with those "vagabonds and rogues" known as 'Parliament'.

As Scots, Bliar and Prudence should reflect on a famous saying from their Bard, Rabbie Burns

"Ah good Lord, whaht gift yerd gueeus, to see asselves as others seeus !"

[ZH875]

But if the TSR2 had entered service, what would have been the best name for her?.

How about 'Raptor'

Although 'White Elephant' would be best for certain members of the government at the time.

[pr00ne]

Beagle,

So Polaris, Vulcan B2, Victor B2, Blue Steel, RAFG based Canberra B(I)8 followed by Phantom and Buccaneer posed no threat?
You should know damm well that the range of TSR-2 was a Far East requirement and that the RAF in Europe had no requirement for anything other than the V force to reach the USSR and even that vanished when Polaris took over the deterrent.

Buoy 15,

My you inhabit a strange world! Where were you between 1979 and 1997? The same shower who are standing in so called opposition now were in power then, including Howard, I don’t recall there being much in that 18 year period other than what you accuse Labour of today.

People like you who constantly put the UK down hack me off when we stand as the worlds 4th largest economy, with the fastest rate of growth in Europe, the most dynamic economy of any in the G8 and a most successful record of creating a dynamic and tolerant society. The Conservatives also played their part in all of that, when they can do what Labour did in 1983 and recognise that to win and win well they have to move to the centre ground, drop the radical loony ideas and stop inhabiting the territory of the extreme far right, then they will be well prepared to take power again and continue the success story. Howard and his mob are NOT the people to do that.

ZH875,
Claymore was the much rumoured name for TSR-2 if it had gone into service.

[BEagle]

If I may refer my learned colleague to my previous post, I did in fact state 'from the UK', inter alia. The other platforms to which he refers were all considered obsolescent at the time Wislon and his fellow travellers murdered the TSR2.

F4 and Buccaneer would not have been a threat to the Rodina Sovietski from the UK, unless a one-way mission was considered. Neither carried a stand-off weapon, so a toss attack with a bucket of sunshine followed by a meaningful chat wih St Peter would have been the best they could have achieved...

As for a name for the magnificent TSR2 , I would have suggested Vickers Vengeant.

An historical note; when the 50p piece first came into circulation in 1969 replacing the ten bob note, it was known as the 'Wilson'. Because it was two-faced, many sided and everyone hated it... The current one is known as a 'Blair' because, without anyone noticing, it pretends to look the same but has reduced in substance.....

For F*ck's sake, team, get off your ar$es and kick this bunch of Labour tossers out on Thursday!

[FJJP]

Gannet and Shack had same radar - literally! The American AN/APS 20 radar was out of the Avenger into the Gannet. When the Gannets were scrapped, the radars were salvaged and fitted to the Shacks to fill the AEW gap caused by the demise of the Nimwacs and before the E3D.

Shack had piston Griffins and the Gannet the turboprop Double Mamba - totally different engines and powerplant to prop chain.

[Maple 01]

Good old BEags - more goutrage! On to the selective memory loss already - mind you, poor chap is getting on;)

Nott Cuts
'Short term' Shackelton AEW 2
NIMWACS
Front line first
Options for change
Closure of Halton hospital
Fatty Soames

For ----- sake, team, get off your ar$es and keep those bunch of Conservative tossers out on Thursday!

[BEagle]

Not so senile as to remember how bad things have been under Labour and/or Nouveau Labour.....

Never have there been so many lies and such spin-ridden deceit as under the current bunch of liars...

Take the pi$$ out of me as much as you like, I really don't give a to$$. But surely no-one can stomach a third term under the gurning pratt Bliar and his slimeball cohorts.....

GET RID OF LABOUR!! You know it makes sense!

[ZH875]

Claymore was the much rumoured name for TSR-2 if it had gone into service. No wonder it was cancelled with a name like that. :O

BEagle has a much better name for her.

[pr00ne]

Beagle,

“Never have there been so many lies and soin-ridden deceit as under the current bunch of liars...”

Apart from not being entirely sure what a “soin” is surely you are having rather selective memory loss, or do we have to remind you about the Tory 18 years of;

Archer, Aitken, Hamilton etc, cash for questions, ilegal arms trading, chronic underfunding of the NHS, the railways, transport infrastructure, interest rates at 15.7% massive unemployment, the Poll tax, John Nott, Michael Portillo, boom and bust, selling of the MoD Married quarters estate in a desperate bid to raise cash, virtual elimination of the Defence medical services (remember RAF Hospitals?) scrapping the Vulcan force before Tornado was in service (John Notts infamous ‘window of vulnerability’) selling of HMS Endurance, scrapping of two thirds of the Carrier fleet, all of the assault ships and a third of the RN surface escort fleet, (can’t imagine why the Argies thought they could have a go at the Falklands, can you?) contractorisation, privatisation, Private Finance Initiatives (YES, the Tories invented them!) dismantling the free NHS dental service, and so on and so on and so on.

FOR F*CKS SAKE TEAM, GET OFF YOUR ARSES AND KEEP THAT BUNCH OF TORY TO55ERS OUT ON THURSDAY!!!!!!!!!!

DON’T LET THE TORIES IN!

VOTE LABOUR.

[BEagle]

Soin?

Please explain? Oh - perhaps you are making much of the proximty of the 'O' and 'P' keys on my laptop? Gosh, well done, you spotted my temporary typo before I did. Big deal....

Now explain away the lies of your 'noo labour' luvvie chums which are increasingly being exposed for what they are as the days tick away.....

Who on earth wants Bliar and the rest of his gang to have yet another term in office?


Apart from you, proone.

[Maple 01]

And me, and 40% of the electorate if the Times* is to be believed!

The TSR2 was a technological marvel killed off by economics and politics both left and right wing - no chance of that happening again because of the withdrawal penalties deliberately written into contracts to discourage those countries for trying to drop costly/unpopular projects

*Well known Blairite pinko fag commie subversive newspaper

[pr00ne]

BEagle,

soin? I see you edited it, I didn't spot is as a typo and far from being clever I didn't know what it was, now I know, ta.

As Maple 01 has stolen my thunder I'll restrict myself to pointing out that we will find out the answer to your question BEagle on Friday morning, to paraphrase Dowding, if I'm right, we'll have another Labour Government, if I'm wrong, God help us as we will have Micheal Howard leading another version of Thatcherism.

What specific lies would you be referring to BEagle? If they are increasingly being "exposed as the days tick away" how do you explain the constant Labour lead in the polls?

[GeeRam]

Claymore was the much rumoured name for TSR-2 if it had gone into service.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that they were going to call it the Trenchard

:ooh:

[Pontius Navigator]

Prune (?) refuted Beagles suggestion that there had been a possibility of a coup d'parliament. I beg to differ and suggest that in this case Beagle might not have been too far off the mark.

Remember ex-DSACEUR, General Walter Walker. I sent a cartoon in with my ISS work and my tutor acknowledged it but said it was too near the mark.

There were very definitely undercurrents at that time and unrelated to the 1 Gp Guest night or even, directly, to the subject of this thread.

OTOH the FEAF requirement was real but was TSR2 needed for that mission? Some targets were miles and miles of trees, bridge, miles and miles of trees. You hardly needed Mach 1 against guns on a bridge head with an exposure time of less than a minute.

Great plane though and nice if the RAAF had bought it too.

[BEagle]

Plane? PLANE?? The TSR2 was an aeroplane, not some woodworker's tool.....

[pr00ne]

Pontius Navigator,

If that was the case Pontius then seeing as the Labout Gov't was returned with a vastly increased majority in 1966 it would have been an undemocratic unconstitutional act and the perpretrators would quite rightly have ended up on the end of a rope!

I was a new wet behind the ears baby pilot at the time of the 1 Group dining in night, rumour that reached us mere mortals at the time was that it was mainly about a lack of a perceived future with Polaris being on the verge of introduction and a general frustration at spending your career in Lincolnshire and huge chunks of time on Q? I can't see aircrew getting all hot under the collar at the Govt f the day or the cancellation of TSR-2, after all wasn't the incident in 1967, some years after the cancellation?

[BEagle]

From Sky News:

BLAIR DEFENDS IRAQ WAR

The Prime Minister has renewed the defence of his decision to take Britain to war with Iraq, following fresh disclosures about the build up to the conflict.

Tony Blair insisted he had done the right thing in launching military action with the US to overthrow Saddam Hussein.

He said opposition leaders criticising him had not been facing reality.

Mr Blair said: "The real world was you had to take a decision to take Saddam out, put him in prison or leave him in power. I decided to put him in prison."

He went on: "When you do this job you take difficult decisions and there is a wear and tear that comes with that.

"But in the end the question people have got to ask themselves is who do you trust to run the economy... who do you trust to deal with the big issues that confront this country?"

Not you or yours, that's for sure!

Labour OUT!!

[Pontius Navigator]

prOOne, thinking about the context, I finished my ISS in 74, the talk was thus some 7 years after the 1 Gp Dining In and the TSR2 debacle.

Thanks for the peep under your disguise, at least you are not the Red Don <g.>

BTW I quite liked the Forces' Friend.

[Jackonicko]

"Who on earth wants Bliar and the rest of his gang to have yet another term in office?"

Well many traditional Tories probably see it as a 'least worst' option, BEags, old chum!

If it's any comfort, BEags, I will be voting Tory, but only because I still have a Tory constituency MP who reflects the old-style, pre-Thatcherite, decent, centrist, one-nation, benevolent, patrician, pragmatic conservatism of the 40s, 50s and 60s, before a once proud party was hijacked by a bunch of jumped up bourgeois Manchester Liberals who have nothing to do with the traditional values of conservatism.

No-one could despise the grinning Tony, with his faux-estuarine, glottal-stopping, jacket-removing, 'man of the people', 'ordinary blokeish' act more than I do. I hate the fecker more even than I hated Kinnock, or Thatcher.

Led by moderates, reflecting the decency and sense of figures like Ken Clarke, Chris Patten, and even Portaloo as he is now, (and following on from Gilmour, Pym, Heath et al) voting for the Tories could be a joy again and you could do so and look yourself in the eye without shame.

But a vote for Howard is a vote for a party that has become so morally bankrupt that it can only appeal to our greed (cutting taxes) and to our worst and most shameful xenophobic fears (all this shameful banging on about immigration).

The system is well and truly broken, and whatever happens on 5 May will be unbearably depressing, unless its a Labour majority so slender that it sees an immediate end to Blair.

[Omark44]

Howard isn't rying to appeal to traditional Conservative voters with his immigration ploy, he is after the traditional Labour voters whose lives have been radically effected by unrestricted immigration.

[Jackonicko]

Yes, yes. 'Cos we're full up, aren't we? All these nasty darkies over here, taking our jobs (sorry benefits), eyeing up our women and doubtless soon to be murdering our children.

And there has been unrestricted immigration, hasn't there? Anyone who wants to can just come here?

This ignorant and dangerous nonsense may be aimed at those blue collar Essex men who voted Tory under Thatcher and who then switched back to Labour, and indeed to the most ignorant, prejudiced, bottom-feeding scum who have always voted Labour, but it's also aimed at the small-minded, often blue-rinsed, Little Englander crackpots who have always voted Tory (or who are tempted by the Referendum Party, Jimmy Goldsmith, Veritas, and all the other far right crackpots) in a desparate effort to energise the core Tory Party activists.

And that's certainly who they're after with their promises of lower taxes and hand-outs to the users of private medicine and education.

I fear that the Tories need a catastrophic drubbing before they'll go back to the common sense, pragmatism and decency which once characterised the Party.

[Tocsin]

Jacko,

Never have I agreed with you more!

In front of me is a ballot paper (postal vote applied for as I'm away on exercise all May...).

Only three candidates from the "major" political parties.

Never have I wished more fervently for a "none of the above" option! (There used to be at least one Green or Looney). This time the only option seems to be a deliberately spoilt paper...

[WE Branch Fanatic]

The best argument against democracy is five minutes spent with the average voter Churchill

[engineer(retard)]

Proone

You produce spin like a labour DJ:

"People like you who constantly put the UK down hack me off when we stand as the worlds 4th largest economy, with the fastest rate of growth in Europe, the most dynamic economy of any in the G8 and a most successful record of creating a dynamic and tolerant society. "

From below:

http://www.hugginsassociates.com/latest_news.php

"The UK Competitiveness Index 2005 report, which is published today, benchmarks the competitiveness of the UK and its regions and localities. The report shows that the competitiveness of the UK economy has weakened since 1997, with a composite competitiveness benchmark of leading nations finding that the UK has slipped from a ranking of 9th position in 1997 to only 17th position by 2004."

Using Europe as a comparison gives you the nice warm feeling because the EU is not competitive due to mountains of red tape and legislation that we have slavishly followed. NL are strangling our economy with administrative burden.

Within the business world, we believe that NL supports small businesses, as long as you start off with a large one.

Regards

Retard

[pr00ne]

Omark44

What utter nonsense! The only choice people like you face is whether to vote BNP or UKIP, you must be so upset you can’t vote National Front any more.

Racist alarmist inaccurate claptrap!

Engineer(retard)

51 months of consecutive positive economic growth, the highest rate of growth amongst the G7, record inward investment, record investment in overseas assets, the most stable economy in the G8, low interest rates, low inflation, low unemployment, the highest number of people in employment ever and a reduction in debt,and you expect me to be upset because some Professor thinks there is a disparity between the leading and lagging regions of the UK and that only London, the South east of England and the East of England can compete effectively with the most competitive regions globally?

Who was using Europe as a comparison? The G7 and G8 include the USA, Japan and Canada!

[engineer(retard)]

Pr00ne

"you expect me to be upset because some Professor thinks there is a disparity between the leading and lagging regions of the UK "

I'm not expecting you to be upset just realistic. I've added another one this time from a government source, admittedly Scottish but Labour dominated:

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/research/briefings-04/sb04-51.pdf

This one has us at 22nd down from 19th the previous year, and highlights the decline of the EU nations and states that this may getworse. We are ahead of Japan but behind the USA and Canada and Zheijand.

From the DTI:

http://www.dti.gov.uk/opportunityforall/indicators2/

"This contributes to a productivity performance which lags significantly behind the US, France and Germany."

Where are you taking your facts from?

Regards

Retard

[pr00ne]

engineer(retard),

UK is the 4th largest economy in the world, fact! Numerous sources. Competetiveness is a rather odd measure in a global economy. The measure of an economy is based on it's size, gross domestic product , wealth and wealth per capita, Take any of those and the UK ranks fourth.

In terms of ownership of assets and profitability the UK even ranks second or third in some sectors, I think a lot of what you are quoting is measuring manufacturing output which has precious little to do with a modern economy in the age of automation and low cost powerhouses such as China and India. We may still do a considerable amount of manufacturing in the UK but it is not the most profitable element of business.

[buoy15]

FJ

I think you will find the last Shacks ended up with ASV 21D which was invested into the Ninrod MR1.

I remember an airshow in 75, where a 70 year old Maritime veteran asked me to compare the ASV7 to the 21D. I explained best I could, and he then told me where I had gone wrong as he had designed it.

What a rotter!

[L Peacock]

I'm alarmed, every day, by the right wing views I read in the gutter press, and on this web site, let alone the hateful bile I hear in general conversation. What are we becoming?
My only consolation is that on 6th May, I will not wake up under the premiership of a hypocritical fascist and that common sense will prevail.
Better an imperfect Labour government than ultra right Thatcher mascarading as a vampire.

Edited because I trusted my spel chequer.

[buoy15]

prOOne

Is that because Phoney Tony and his gang carried on successful Tories policies set well in place by Maggie under the banner of New Labour?

Where are their traditional Socialist Labour ideals and policies which embrace equality, fairness and justice.?

Or are they established, as he and Strawman don't know how many illegal immigrants, gypsies, wannabies are in the country living in provided housing and on generous benefits, when there is an indigenous population, mainly pensioners, struggling on means testing?

I have just checked the Oxford Concise on the meanings of Integrity, Honesty and Trust.

Do these match up to yours, or your mates in government?

Have a read!

[passpartout]

Ahem, ladies...

Was this not a thread started to discuss an aeroplane? Or was "TSR2" some codeword used to commence a catfight?

Unless I have missed it, nobody has seen fit to mention the Thunder and lightnings website, except in snippets - fascinating detail.

Anyway, whatever happened to Screaming Lord Sutch?:rolleyes:

[PPRuNe Pop]

Whoa, nice people let us not go off at a tangent! This thread is about the TSR2 not the politics of today or tomorrow, even though it may affect one or two of us holding different political persausions. There is plenty of that on PPRuNe right now.

TSR2 was cancelled in a trice! Literally!!! One minute it was there next minute it was gone. That tells you that the underlying principals of politics were much deeper than we realise. It was an act of wanton destruction and I cannot put it any other way. Even though PrOOne, who is perfectly entitled to his opinion thinks otherwise, I and many more think that it was a terrible conspiracy that will, one day, surface to show what the Labour government did on that day in 1965. Perhaps the FoI act might allow that now!

I referred to a piece from BAC on the subject. I think it tells us more than we THINK we know.

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/tsr2/history.html

[Pontius Navigator]

Just to correct Buoy 15, he is quite right when he said the Shackleton and Nimrod shared the ASV21 but overlooked that for half its life it was then 'upgraded' with the Gannet APS20 and 3 scopes, to fullfil the AEW role.

[engineer(retard)]

Aye PN

Magnetrons the size of dustbins and thyratrons so big you could see the electrons flowing through them. Try telling the youth of today and they won't believe you.

Regards

Retard

PS I was just getting revved up on GDP, I really hate spin. Vote Monster raving loony, the only party with honest policies :O

[Pontius Navigator]

Pr00ne was so busy defending his corner that he didn't pick up on the truth of the potential coup in 1974 - not 1966 when there was a labour landslide.

By 1974 the country was enjoying a massive BOOM under labour. I was flying a Navy minister at the time old Harold slide out from under.

[pr00ne]

Buoy15,

Carried on successful Tory policies? No, I don’t think so, I don’t recall any interest rate hikes to 15.7% recently or other similar mismanagement of the economy.

PPRuNe Pop,

TSR-2 was NOT cancelled in a thrice! There was endless discussion on whether to cancel it, whether it was worth the money, whether it could be afforded or whether it was needed any more, it aroused similar emotion to that of Concorde. Labour were elected in October 1964, their first budget in the November did NOT cancel TSR-2 nor did their first Defence White paper in February 1965. What it did do was state that the affordability of TSR-2 was being studied with the F-111K as a possible alternative. A worsening economic situation forced their hand in the April 1965 budget when it finally WAS cancelled!

Pontius Navigator,

1974? Afraid I was in Germany then and not too familiar with any potential rumblings in Blighty. A coup? Well, the cuts of that year WERE bad but they were started by the in power Tories the previous year and Labour were only elected in February with a majority over the Tories of 3 but in a hung parliament. However a snap election in the October of the same year produced a Labour majority of 42 so once again any coup would have been undemocratic and unrepresentative.

As to Wilson resigning in 1976, what would YOU do if you were already seriously ill, exhausted after being PM or leader of the opposition for over a decade and were then diagnosed with cancer of the Colon?

[Pontius Navigator]

pr00ne, I would have told someone. It was a complete and numbing surprise to his minister who, had he known, would not have been flying over the ogg at the time.

No doubt I saw you at Bruggen then.

Certainly HW was in the chair at the time of the rumblings and who said anything about democratic. As I recall, at the time, there was an underlying assumption that the Establishment ran the country regardless of the party in power.

The Nott cuts that came later were even better than the TSR2 debacle. I agree about the undercurrents and talk at the time. My uncle was on the project. What was 'in a trice' was the way everything was destroyed PDQ and arguing that unused jigs are only worth selling from scrap the next day is a bit iffy.

There is always someone who would want to hang on to drawings etc. They cost money, OK they also take up space, but who knew then that they might not be needed as the start of the next project?

How long did it take for the SR71 or the B177 to be wound up and discarded?

[Omark44]

"Omark44

What utter nonsense! The only choice people like you face is whether to vote BNP or UKIP, you must be so upset you can’t vote National Front any more.

Racist alarmist inaccurate claptrap!"

Can't let you get away with that pr00ne , you should know better, shouting "racist" is done all too often when someone chooses to offer up a 'not quite PC but nevertheless' fact.

Immigration in the UK is a total shambles, has been for years and is getting worse. Howard is trying to appeal to the people in those areas that are most adversely effected by this, traditionally Labour voters.

Only ever voted Tory, there is nothing BNP, NF or UKIP about me or anything I have said. You are obviously a rabid socialist but you should know better than to shout "racist" just because someone mentions a fact that you are uncomfortable with.

[Argonautical]

I think people tend to look at the TSR-2 through rose-tinted glasses.

Not sure it would have been better in the end than the F-111 which turned out to be an outstanding and versatile aeroplane, able to carry a large variety of ordinance a long way and in all weathers.

[buoy15]

PN

Thank you, how remiss of me

I actually flew 4 sorties with 8 Sqn out of Lossie

When I wrote the thread, I was in Maritime mode and forgot about the excelent service the Grey Old Lady provided in the latter years

As an aside, I have a Griffon piston (3000 cc), turned down into a paperweight/ashtray, which I was given at Ballykelly in 1968.

[Pontius Navigator]

Buoy15 and I had a few jars in Limavardy and steaks in the mess too.

I know we're hijacking a thread but the only good things about the APS 20 setup in the Shack was . . .



hang on I'm trying to think . . .




oh well . . .


At least I once got a pickup on a Bear at 220 miles. The initial pickup had been at 205 then over an hour later we lost him and then got him again as he came back into to cover.

Would you believe that in the 20 minutes out of cover the Victor and two interceptors had all changed over! Took us longer sorting out callsigns and air picture than the first pick up.

[Zoom]

Mig15
Fuel leaks? Good thing the RAF never got the Lightning then.

[BEagle]

Amazing, isn't it. 27 years after the miserable socialists killed off the magnificent TSR2 we finally got rid of that embarrassing anachronism which was the UK's only AEW asset....

But I hasten to add that the old thing managed to do so pretty well!

One stayed overnight dribbling oil over the ASP at Wattisham when I was on F4s. It took off, we had a cup of coffee, then did a trip. Debriefed, then another trip and another debrief. The ageing old Shacklebomber was still wending its weary way back to Jockistan......

[Circuit Basher]

I was an apprentoid at BAC Warton after the demise of TSR2 and one of our drawing instructors (who'd been a draughtsman at the time of the cancellation) told us stories of the day of the cancellation, when big wheely bins were pushed through the enormous DO for all sketches, drawings and prototype parts to be dropped into.

He'd saved a few bits and pieces and there was one machined bracket that he used to give to the better draughtspeople in the course as a test (I was a 'leccie, so was excused this!). On the face of it, it looked like a machined U shaped bracket. On closer inspection, I don't think there was one face of it that was parallel or perpendicular to anything else - all surfaces seemed to have a miniscule taper / chamfer!

TSR2 was my absolute favourite aircraft (but only pushing Lightning into 2nd place by a whisker) - would have negated the need for Tornado. From what I have seen, however, it needed a very significant amount of work to make it manufacturable in any quantities. I also believe that it was a necessary interim stage of design and many features were taken forward into Jaguar / Tornado, so in modern parlance could be termed a 'derisking' exercise.

[engineer(retard)]

"If it's dripping it's not empty"

From working F4, posted to Lossie and hearing a tannoy of "8 hours to Q launch" used to make me smile.

"As an aside, I have a Griffon piston (3000 cc), turned down into a paperweight/ashtray, which I was given at Ballykelly in 1968."

If you had been given the APS20 indicator you could have emptied it and used it as a garden shed, complete with a round window.

[Pontius Navigator]

Found that the RAF Historical Society published the papers from a symposium on teh TSR2 in about 1997. Facsinating. Essentially the project was dead from about 1962-63.

Shotgun contractors, over egged specification trying to match high level M2.3 with low level transonic, high level range, medium level recce, short field performance (1 000 feet with 600 feet at light load).

Potentially inadequate mapping to support bleeding edge digital computer technology that was already 'full' before flight.

Yes, great airframe, awesome performance but ultimately unaffordably.

Paddy Hine, crystal ball glazing, speculated that we would now have an aged TSR2 with Harrier. We would not have had the Jaguar or the MRCA.

Reluctantly I think the decision was ultimately correct.

[L Peacock]

Circuit basher

Would TSR2 have stood the test of time. Tornado is getting long in the tooth; TSR2 would be at the end of its life by now. I wonder where we'd have gone next. Difficult to say I suppose because we'd now be in a very different parallel universe.

[Gainesy]

The ageing old Shacklebomber was still wending its weary way back to Jockistan

...probably just clearing Honington SRZ BEags.:)

[cazatou]

I remember being told that the Cabinet decision to scrap TSR2 was taken after Mr Healy informed the room that a TSR2 wing had suffered major structural damage whilst undergoing testing.

This was quite true, but two pieces of information were omitted from the statement.

The wing that failed was the wing being tested to destruction and it had exceeded its design limits by some 20%.

[tarbaby]

Ah! Mr. Healey. It was not his wife who was a card carrying communist. When he was at Uni in the 30s ( a great recruiting time for the USSR) he was a card carrying member.

Far better to count the number of times that HW went to Moscow.

Back to Tsr2. When I was at Gaydon, living in quarters at Church Lawford, there was an engineer who had worked at MOD and had something major to do with Tsr2. A good way to make him cry was to say the magic letters. Rumor has it that his wife was expert in getting exactly what she wanted, when she wanted it by doing same.