RAF AT fleet, cx this out!

[Training Risky]

This is from ARRSE.co.uk:

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn/Forums/viewtopic/t=9099.html

"Having spent 48 hours at Basrah APOD being treated like cattle and being lied to by the RLC movers (Quislings) about when the one Tristar serving theatre would be fixed in order to fly us home, I discovered the following when my wife picked me up from Brize:

- She had been told that the flight delays were caused by the security situation in Basrah. This was untrue, as the delay had been caused by the Crabs failing to have a back-up aircraft/plan when their Tristar broke.

- She was not allowed access to Brize as no manifest had been sent from Basrah (despite having her car and personal details on the guardroom computer from 6 weeks previously). Thus she and many other family members who had travelled long distances to pick up loved ones were stuck at the gate.

- While in the Guardroom she overheard the instruction being given to switch the passenger enquiry line to an empty line as someone had had the temerity to complain and 'they weren't paid to deal with that crap'. This resulted in many families being unable to find out arrival times/changes etc. and caused widespread distress.

If I had been responsible for such a catalogue of fcuk-ups and lies in my unit, I would have been sacked on the spot. I don't know about the rest of you, but I have suffered more at the hands of the RAF than any of Her Majesty's enemies. What I propose is a vote of no-confidence in the RAF Transport Fleet, where if the poll goes against them, ACM Sir Jock Stirrup has to apologise to all those he has wronged on national television - naked."

[BEagle]

Suggest the person involved should vent his spleen against the squirearchy rather than the 'RAF AT fleet' in general? And remember, it's the mainly Pongo-run DTMA which decides upon a/c allocations and seat requirements - the AT squadrons have no say in the matter at all.

The incompetence of the Salvation Army who inhabit the pizza hut was clearly unacceptable; however, there were 'other things' going on at the time of which he may not have been aware.

[lineslime]

Looking at some of the rants on ARRSE, I suggest that if the army aren't happy with our AT fleet then let the fcukers walk home. It isn't the squadrons fault if aircraft are not servicable, try the lack of spares for one. I try my best to ensure frames are servicable, but if we ain't got the bits it ain't going to happen. Just be patient "crab air" is doing it's best, but for some that will never be good enough.

[FJ2ME]

I have tried to promulgate the same information at Lineslime, as to the fact that we do the best with old kit and no spares.

Have to say though, that this is scant excuse for some of the diabolical treatment by movers, terminal staff, etc. If I had to wait 3 days for a return through Cyprus, as an Army chum of mine did, with absolutely no explanation as to the reason for the delay, and a complete 'can't be @rsed' attitude from the staff at the terminal I too would be pi$$ed off. Being told that your 'lucky your going home so I wouldn't moan' is ridiculous.

Why can't the terminal staff apply a little empathy and treat these people with a little more respect? It is often the only direct contact between Squaddy and Crab and if its a bad experience they all tend to think we're just an expensive joke who only work when we feel like it. Like it or not, the RAF has to address these 'customer service' issues, or face the (further) loss of respect from our other services.

[StopStart]

Unfortunately the "customer-facing" :yuk: element of the RAF AT fleet can sometimes leave a bit to be desired. Whilst check in staff etc do sometimes receive a fair bit of unecessary abuse their attitude towards pax can, at times, be appalling. Mistreating dependents, as detailed in the original post, is just frankly crap and those responsible need a good kick up the arse/sacking.

As for blaming the whole AT fleet in general - a little harsh I fancy. The demands on the AT fleet are driven by DTMA and the demands of the "customer" in general. If the army demands that we supply 10 aircraft for Exercise Eagles' Pants they shouldn't be too surprised when it becomes difficult for us to magic up more aircraft to roulement their troops on Ops. You gets what you pay for.

Still, a vote of no confidemce from the army? That'd be a terrible blow. Bit like the local burglars telling you they're not going to break into your house cos your TVs not good enough to nick.
:ok:

[bowly]

Will never forget the experience of watching an SAC walk out in the departure lounge, and call out "Walker......Walker........is there a Walker in the lounge?" A Warrant Officer strutted up to the said SAC and shout "OI, PROPELLER BOY........follow me!"

Although unable to hear the rant, it was fairly obvious to all the severity of the b*llocking he was getting. After appearing back at the mic, the next announcement went along the lines of

"Would Maj Gen Walker please make himself known. Thank you."

Priceless

[deeceethree]

As a one-time AT driver I can attest to the often poor attitude of the Movers. I too have heard them 'make up' stories to account for a delay or whatever and it is bloody poor behaviour.

I once insisted on going into the terminal PA to the pax in person to explain a short tech delay and the Movers nearly had a fit! I insisted, carried out the PA and had an Army capatin approach me and say thank you. My PA had just contradicted some bull**** that the movers had PA'd moments earlier!

[rafloo]

It isn't the squadrons fault if aircraft are not servicable....

of course it is you moron..... it is entirely the squadrons fault.

[Tourist]

Its South Blo@dy Cerny that I loath. I consider them to have stolen life from me, all the days wasted:mad: :mad: :mad:

[jayteeto]

RAFLOO.... If you cant get any spares in a decent time how do you expect the squadron grubbers to fix the aeroplanes?? There is a limit to Araldite and sticky back plastic. Think before you call them morons :mad:

[airborne_artist]

You've been in Basra 6 months (ie since Nov 04 - away for Xmas), during which time you've worked watch-on, stop -on most of the time, with sand everywhere, living in accom. that UK farmers could not keep a pig in.

While you've been there you had the locals chucking their RPGs at you, detonating IEDs by the roadside, and generally being charming. You've probably been counting the minutes til you land and see wife+ kids/girlfriend/boyfriend since the day you arrived (and so have they)

And then you and the missus get given the run-around for two days - and are expected to be gracious with it.

Can't say I blame the lads at all - even if the spares situation is down to "budget issues".

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Conversely, I've also seen an Army SNCO put a couple of troops on an 'Auswitz style' frieght train in order to guard equipment. 8 days of compo ration and a "see you in blighty" was all they got.................

[lineslime]

raftoilet
Yet again you appear to be a complete to$$er of the highest order. I suppose you expect the squdrons to leave the aircraft on the ground untill requestd to go and pick some troops up. It has nothing to do with Mr/Mrs/Miss mover driving a piece of motorised equipment into the bloody thing, or the fact some directionless feathered tit decides to punch a hole in a leading edge or inspect the inside of an engine (en mass) or that messers Rolls & Royce have not yet designed the everlasting, unbreakable engine. Just to make the point again "YOU SIR ARE A KN*B OF THE HIGHEST ORDER".


As for termial staff leading people on a merry dickdance, I for one have been on the receiving end on a couple of occasions. It is inexcusable and I suppose they don't really want to admit to their mover bretheren being the cause due to careless driving.

[D-IFF_ident]

I sincerely doubt that complaints posted here, or elsewhere on public internet forums will get any response, apology or any official reaction whatsoever.

I offer the following as the offices and personnel I would visit if I felt as wronged as the original poster surely does:

1. Any queries about visitor arrival procedures at RAF Brize Norton may be directed during normal working hours to the RAF Police on Tel. 01993 896218 / 896137. Ask for a copy of the correct procedures for access to the unit by civilians - in writing.

2. Contact the Corporate Communications Office:

RAF Brize Norton
Carterton
Oxfordshire
OX18 3LX

Corporate Communications Officer (CCO) Tel. 01993 897779

E-mail - [email protected]

Tell them that you wish to lodge a formal complaint, then follow-up with a letter explaining the situation.

If you are not happy with the reply then the CCO will be able to give you information about how your complaint can be dealt with at higher levels.

I agree that the handling of the situation was unacceptable, but would not aportion blame until all the facts had been gathered. If the author is really upset, and not just after putting-down the RAF, or AT aircrews in particular, then he should follow appropriate channels. Those who know me know I would - the hierarchy don't know there's a problem if you don't tell them.

[Logistics Loader]

Having been a Mover for 23yrs and served all over the world in various posts, it never ceases to amaze me at the amount of jellyfish the RAF have...

AT Fleet::::::

I never took it for granted that an aircraft would stay serviceable long to fly home the pax i had just checked in...If it went Pete Tong then Ce La Vie.....
Running a busy pax section calls for tact and diplomacy...at all times whether it be with pax or crew...

I for one have used the No ranks call out mode on numerous occasions..for speed of getting things sorted out...Opening sentence always stated that, no-one ever complained, obviously those holding Air Rank or Eqv were treated with greater distinction..

JHF:::::
The crews on the chopper fleet really got to know movers well during the early days of JHSU...there was always banter between us esp in FI...where the generous use of the Brevity Code could often be heard on comms...pity some of the AT Fleet didnt work as close as this... then again bad apples in all barrels i guess..

Army::::

Op Banner was always a classic screw up on AT resources, Army would book a VC10 to do a Tristar job or a Mk1 Herc to do a Mk3 task....Army could never comprehend that cant put a gallon into a litre container...

Jointery was a "new buzz word" few years back....i had been doing jointery since 1981, not a new concept, just updated...sadly some people are to far up there own dark tunnels to appreciate others around them....

Aircrew need everyone, Techies need everyone, Movers need everyone....live and work together happily...

Take time out to understand what they do with the crap kit that is supplied...

Rgds

Mr.....
Ex Mover

[The Helpful Stacker]

Take time out to understand what they do with the crap kit that is supplied...

Its not the fault of the proper TG18's either.......


;)

[C130 Techie]

Rafloo you really are one of the biggest to$$ers ever to grace these forums. Oh and if you profess to being just a wind up merchant you are cr@p at that too.

If you had any real idea of what goes on day to day on any working squadron in todays airforce then you wouldnt post such cr@p. By your inane posts you are doing down some extremely professional and hard working people doing their level best in difficult circumstances.

Do as your user name suggests and flush yourself away:mad:

D-IFF_ident - Perfect answer, wish I had your patience.

[round&round]

I have every sympathy with those who have experienced the treatment metered out by those at Brize Norton. I have been routed through Brize many times and have been shocked at the manner in which we are treated. Even when wearing flying kit I feel that I am being treated as nothing more than an inconvenience. I truly feel ashamed that so many soldiers and sailors perceive this as the real face of the RAF. Even when getting onto a serviceable 10 or Tristar the first experience is an SAC steward/ess shouting oi..you...sit ..here.

I want to balance this by finding at least one positive thing to say of my 20 years of RAFAT travel, but I can't think of one. After all, rudeness is a choice, being polite and courteous costs nothing yet I can only recall slow, rude impolite, and discourteous treatment.

[November4]

Saw a soldier and his family arriving at Brize the other week for a flight back to Basra ex RandR. He goes to book his vehicle and family on at the Pizzahut. The wife does not have any photo ID so the only way she can go onto camp is to be escorted. No problem as the husband is military and will escort her.

BUT he will not be able to escort her off camp so she is refused entry. The soldier has to say his good byes in the Pizzahut to wife and young kids.



As for giving out duff gen over the PA. Is it better to say that your aircraft is knackered but the techies are doing their best with a bit of bodge tape and a big hammer or "French ATC delay".

Which do you think will cause the least worry to the pax?

[spinstallaeropfl]

'RAF Movements.. how can I hinder...?!'

And shouldn't all those over-plump stewards and stewardesses donate their desert flying suits to those who need them?

SSAP

[The Helpful Stacker]

I tip my hat to the '10 crew back in '96 who were bringing me and 6 other TSW lads back to the UK from Bosnia. We had to stop on the way back at Hamburg to drop off a load of squaddies.

As us 7 lads (the only ones going back to BZN) sat in the 'limbo' lounge waiting to re-board the a/c one of the crew (a Sqn Ldr, so I think he was the Captain) came wandering up from duty-free with a trolley laden with cases of beer, two of with he gave to us with a wink and said "for the flight back".

He didn't have to do it, it was against the rules but he did do it.

Top bloke, made flying backwards a pleasure not a chore.

And shouldn't all those over-plump stewards and stewardesses donate their desert flying suits to those who need them?

I think this has been mentioned before, they have no choice of what they wear. As for the over-plump bit you'll have to blame the touchy feely RAF for not making people stay fit and the current low morale which doesn't really encourage anyone to take pride in their ability to be 'fit to fight'.

[deeceethree]

November4

Sorry, I think you're wrong. I told the pax what the problem was, that the defective part was being replaced, and we would be away in an hour. The Movers on the other hand spun a completely made-up story that wouldn't have sounded out of place coming out of their backsides.

No contest! Treat your pax like humans and be honest with them.

[Safety_Helmut]

RAF Movements
on the one hand, an apt name for a trade, on the other .......?
Its not the fault of the proper TG18's either....... Personally i've always thought that the number of the Trade Group is a fairly crude, but useful sort of indicator to the trades usefulness, anybody any thoughts on that one ?

Safety_Helmut

[Safeware]

S_H

Made me laugh :)

sw

[The Helpful Stacker]

Personally i've always thought that the number of the Trade Group is a fairly crude, but useful sort of indicator to the trades usefulness, anybody any thoughts on that one ?

Strange, I've always thought of it as the bigger the number the more niff naff and trivia, unconnected with your primary duty, your trade gets lumped with by the powers that be.

Obviously those little numbers do very little other than take boxes out of planes and send them back to BAe (through us of course).

;)

[The Swinging Monkey]

I very much regret to say it, but I have to agree with the Pongo. I have had many many unhappy experiences with the Brize Norton fiasco and AT, aswell as countless others.
Even as aircrew, going out to an operational theatre, we (like all the rest) were treated shamefully, and I was embarrassed to see fellow service personell treating us like it.
If an aircraft goes u/s then that is a fact of life, but common decency should prevail, and measures taken to lessen the impact. Unfortunately most movers seem to regard it as an opportunity to generally screw people about and flexing their so calles muscles (sp??).

I am afraid that most movers, together with most RAFP head up my $hit list of people who the RAF DO NOT NEED!!

Kind regards as always
TSM

[Echo 5]

TSM,

............................................................ .............................................
I am afraid that most movers, together with most RAFP head up my $hit list of people who the RAF DO NOT NEED!!
............................................................ .............................................

Rather scathing attack this AM old boy. Most unlike you.

Regards to all,

E5.;)

[Radar Riser]

I think DC3 and TSM have hit the nail on the head.

If the jet is u/s, let the pax know. Do you really think that they are going to be afraid of a technical hitch. Wake up and smell the coffee! People in the armed forces aren't stupid and without wishing to appear rude, it's not up to the movers to make that decision, just plain discourteous.

Came back from Op Telic once by Tristar and spent the night in Gateway, to be picked up by a Nimrod in the morning. Drove out to the aeroplane, loaded our bags ourselves, and were about to start the engines, when a 1 group mover came on to the 3 group aeroplane and made us get off because we hadn't gone through their 1 group departures!

Now if that isn't jobsworth, I don't know what is.:*

Movers, over to you.....

RR

PS Logistics Loader, calling people on the PA without their rank is rude, be it Private or Wing Commander, any more senior would warrent a personal messenger. Brevity is not an issue.The people manning the PA have the pax manifest with ranks on I presume.:p

[Echo 5]

" calling people on the PA without their rank is rude, be it Private or Wing Commander "


I remember an incident many years ago when a passenger clerk at Akronelli attempted to call forward a passenger using his rank, name and regiment. Unfortunately the passenger was of the Mexican moustache variety from the Welsh border area and didn't want to be identified. After a number of unanswered calls the clerk was taken away to a quiet corner by the DAMO and given a rollocking.
Perhaps it would be safer to call all passengers Mr, Mrs or Ms.

[BEagle]

Years ago (well, not really that many), if (as sqn aircrew) we were paxing out somewhere in one of our own VC10K tankers, we just use to drive over to the jet, unload the kit, park in the nearby car park, then hop in the back.

By the time I banged out, this had turned into a complete feat of ar$e. Drive to the terminal and attempt to find somewhere to park. Lug kit over to terminal, queue up at check-in, get Plod-processed, wait to be called to bus, driven over to a/c. The bag crushers would, of course, rip the handles of your luggage and throw it about in their usual manner.

We also used to bring back the odd FJ mate or other from various parts of the world. Remarkably straightforward as long as the movers weren't involved......

Brought some grunts back from Botswana once. It was abundantly clear that ASI was maxxed out as they'd told us on the way out. Rang Ar$ecoat to suggest that instead of overloading ASI, we did a quick turn, then stopped at Dakar before coming home the next day - thus getting back much earlier than the stupid itinerary they'd planned. Which was to land at ASI, then hang around all day before going back via a 'quick' turnround in the mid-day sun at Dakar the next day.

Request refused - not on grounds of cost but "We can't have all those Army people running around in Dakar". I assured them that a quiet word with the SNCOs in charge of the Army lads would assure that everything would be fine - and the Army needed to be back asap due to a VIP parade they had to prepare for. But no, despite protestations, back via ASI it had to be...

Then ASI said that we'd have to wait until the inbound TriShaw had been processed through, which would have made us even later. "Bolleaux", quoth I, "We'll go before it gets here". ASI protested that they would have to take the pax straight to the a/c and wouldn't have time to process them all. "Listen, you arse, they're the same folk we brought here yesterday" was my riposte. "Only if you take responsibility..." they whined. So a quick word with the senior passenger and all was well - the Army were as good as gold thank to their SNCOs and discipline. But the next day we were about to crank up when some heifer with a red armband appeared to announce that she was unloading one of our ATSy Plods due to the need to put a 'priority passenger' on. "How will he get home, then?", I asked. "He can get the next Herc" she said, and attempted to turn her back. "If that's the best you can do, I will sort it myself. Put him on the northbound Trishaw which comes here in a couple of hours time!" She then tried to say that this would be impossible as it was a Tommy (freighter), not a Timmy (passenger) flight. "Is it DAC?" "Err, no". "Right, I expect you to sort it!"

Listened out on VHF for the southbound Timmy, then spoke to the crew and asked if they'd be seeing their northbound chums. Yes, they said. I told them the story; they assured me that putting the ATSy Plod on the Tommy as supernumerary crew would be no problem at all.

By the time we took off from Dakar, the northbound Tommy had caught us up - it was going flat out and to hell with the fuel burn! Good news, they'd got our Plod on board and he was actually going to be back at Brize before we were!

The moral of the story? Well, when I was in the RAF AT world we would do our damndest to get the pax back as quickly as possible - but were often hampered by the leaden hand of some movements personnel and the incompetence of Ar$ecoat Ops. Real airlines put their sharpest folk on dispatch and flight itinerary 'fire fighting' - not the rejects of the Phone Answering branch!

Other ways I've outfoxed the jobsworths included phoning MT Ops at Wattisham (when it was still RAF) from off the coast of Africa via HF phonepatch to say that we'd landed early at Brize, so could they please send the bus! An un-officer like little white lie - the F4 aircrew had earlier told me that Wattisham weren't planning on sending their bus until we were back at Brize, so they'd all have to hang around for 3-4 hours or so to wait for it! Instead, just as they came through customs their bus arrived outside the terminal!

I love it when a plan comes together!

On the subject of calling out passengers' names, we were once bringing back some Army folk from Hannover. The kit was all on board, but the movers had cocked up the head count as the numbers didn't add up. After an hour of this, the FS ALM decided he'd had enough and was going to check the list personally....

Sound plan - but it was like something out of Zulu when he got to "Jones" as this was some Welsh regiment and about eighty grinning taffies stuck their hands up! So he started "123 Jones?" "Here, Staff!", "456 Jones?" "Here, Staff!"....... I had to retire to the flight deck to avoid hysteria!

[lineslime]

In response to the trade group thing, pre pay 2000 the lower the number the higher up the evolutionary scale you had progressed, e.g. TG1 = Gods, TG18 = Only just out of the water. This was sensibly reflected in pay and was nice to know a JT could earn more than the lowest paid SNCOs, alas the system now fails us of god like status.

[November4]

If the jet is u/s, let the pax know. Do you really think that they are going to be afraid of a technical hitch.

Having seen a pax who was nervous enough about flying being told that the "jet" was u/s then refuse to fly......

.......and he was an ATLO!!!


As for TG Nos - wasn't it the lower the number the earlier you were killed off in TACEVALs?

[lineslime]

Only to sit around and enjoy life whilse everyone else carried on as if they were normal?

[engineer(retard)]

On returning from Cyprus by VC10, I was sat next to a nervous matelot who had not twigged the reverse seating arrangement. He wondered why we were going backwards as we taxied. I told him the aircraft had a reverse gear.

He was quite happy until we gained speed going down the runway and the blood began to drain from his face. Took a while until realisation dawned.

An awful thing to do but irresistable.

[lineslime]

Just had a look at the "army" rumour website, arrse, that started this off, all I could see (only read the first 4 pages) was RAF bashing at every opportunity. Even when given valid reasons for flight delays and problems within the AT fleet the slanging still continued. I am in agreement with the member of the 10 fleet when he said, on said site, "maybe you should have done better at school, you could have joined the RAF".

[KPax]

A bit like the other thread on this forum bashing RAFP. You moan about lack of morale and then post rubbish like this. Again, most of the Movers I know are professionals trying to do a job with the limited resources that they have. Some of you probably have hardship stories to tell. Ask the Mover who has done 73 days OOA in approximately 100 days, has been told he is off to Bagdad for 4 weeks then some weeks later is off to asia for 4 months. He qualifies for his 91 days OOA but because he is OOA when he qualifies they won't count it until he returns hence the 4 Month det. He has something to moan about, but he is just getting on with it. PS I am not a Mover. Why can't we get on with telling the people who need to know what's wrong rather than the in-fighting we see here. Rant over.

[FJ2ME]

Kpax,

One could reasonably assume that some of the powers that be also read this site, so in airing views we are getting exposure to problems. (If they don't, then they are even more ignorant of the people that work for them than I thought) However, this is done anonymously without having to stick your head above the parapet.

In a public forum there is nothing wrong with people sharing their views and/or experiences. If you don't like it, no one is forcing you to read it, after all.

[lineslime]

KPax
Most of the movers you know may be professional, but try feeling that way you are in the nose bay of a herc when some dumb tw@t lowers the ramp without checking. I have seen it happen on many occasions, yet no matter how many times you tell them to check the nose bay from the front end it still happens. It is only a matter of time before someone is seriously hurt!
No matter how many times we tell the people who need to know things are wrong nothing gets done to remedy the situations correctly, and I think things will stay like this so long as my @rsehole points south. Infighting is a problem that will never go away, no matter what happens, we just have to live with it and ignore it.

[dionysius]

Lineslime
suerly it is an easy thing to pull the circuit breaker for the ramp controls, this would stop any accidental use of the ramp whilst techie in nose bay ???

[lineslime]

Have you tried to get to the CB with the back end full of crew bags, movers, pax and freight, about 30 seconds after the last prop has stopped spinning. It is impossible. Perhaps the movers would find it more prudent to wait untill the nose leg pin is inserted and the aircraft earthed before they drop the ramp. Just a thought..........

[KENNYR]

lineslime, you complain that the ARRSE site is "RAF Bashing"...and this site doesnt bash anyone......right?? It doesnt bash drunken Army Pilots or the labour government for the TSR2 debacle etc. etc. etc..

Departments in all services have "off" days, but is that really sufficient reason to crucify each other? Sure the AT Staff get it wrong seemingly quite often, but think of all the passengers that they happily send on their way. I have no complaints with my numerous dealings with the RAF and Army Movers during my extensive service especially when I had to Comp B from the Falkland Islands when my father passed away. First Class service in a Tristar, then top-notch treatment at Brize en-route to Glasgow.

The "do better at school" argument doesnt hold water, career paths are a choice and nothing to do with "school".

[lineslime]

Kenny
If people did better at school then more career paths would be open to them, thus giving them a wider choice. At least this site tends to spread it's bashing liberaly throughout the available targets and doesn't just generalise. Anyway politicians are ther to be targets for this sort of thing, it just so happens that the liabor government make such an easy target of themselves.

Being a member of the AT brotherhood, albeit at ground crew level, I can ensure you that from my side of things we work effing hard to ensure all tasking is met, available aircraft and spares permiting, and the crews do their bit as well to make sure everything runs smoothly at their end. It is those responsible for tasking and planning that tend to cause the problems. Imagine an aircraft coming back from a long route, at about 02:00, and being tasked to go again at 07:00. You can guarante that it will be carrying snags, which need fixing, and the worlds biggest role change not to mention the flight servicings. None of the rects can get done untill the A/F is sorted, the role can't get done till the snags have been done, etc.

[KENNYR]

I hear ya lineslime!!! I guess that there are snags that we aircrew gods just couldnt accept! I believe that the aircrew/groundcrew argie-bargie is unwarranted. We all work towards the same goal........KEEP THE CUSTOMER SATISFIED......whether it be Army, Navy, RAF or Royal Marine.

Now, if only the movers would co-operate......aaahhhh....if only!!

[L1011GE]

During Telic we picked up a comp pax from AKT and had to go to Lossie before Brize.

The pax were overnighted in AKT prior to flight but the few pax who were from Lossie/Kinloss were refused permission to get off at Lossie.. The movers excuse? "not enough time to sort bags"!!

Anyway we landed at Lossie with hot brakes (capts club foot) and waited about 2 hours for the brakes to cool..

Were the Lossie/Kinloss pax allowed off by the movs?? NO

They were made to fly back to Brize, get a bus to Heathrow then another flight to Aberdeen then a bus to Lossie..

I Kid you not this actually happened...and Im sure the Movs blamed 216 sqn..

[lineslime]

I can see a common denominator appearing here, MOVERS. But as i'm sure you are all aware the RAF is supposed to revolve around them. They are the dogs dangly bits where bag crushing/losing is concerned, not to mention ramp and herc external tank tw@tting. Oh and I almost forgot the fact they can do role changes down route, but only if it is somewhere nice.
Please anyone who's lift home, via the AT fleet, is delayed don't blame it on the air/ground crew blame those actually responsible.

[Echo 5]

Mmmm,

Some months ago I started a thread to encourage Movers and Loadies to banter and air their differences. Some may say that it was a bit of sh!t stirring but that was not the case. I would say that 80% of the banter, and some vitriolic posts, came from the aircrew.
Now we have another thread and 100% of the posts come from aircrew in general and a few ground crew, none of whom have anything good to say about Movers.
Now I wonder, why are the Movers not posting their point of view ?
Not sh!t stirring you understand.....only being a little mischievous.
Regards to all,

E5:)

[November4]

Now I wonder, why are the Movers not posting their point of view

Probably because we can't be ar$ed and rise above it all.

Tried to do that on the previous Movers V Loadies thread and it made no difference. Some people would rather blame the movers (Akrotiri opening hours was the best) for everything rather than find out the facts.

Waiting for the inevitable - why did the mover take my knife / LSJ off me comments........................




and talking of Akrotiri...... heard a rumour about a motor bike being flown there which got a few scratches during the landing.........any comments from 99 Sqn????

[Echo 5]

November4

............................................................ ...........................................
Probably because we can't be ar$ed and rise above it all.
............................................................ ...........................................

Thought that might be the case but I wish a few more of them could be arsed otherwise it all becomes a bit one sided.

[ZH875]

Now I wonder, why are the Movers not posting their point of viewProbably because the mover that can read is on the other shift to the mover that can write, so no mover response until next week when they are both available at the same time.

[The Ugly Fend Off]

Personally I think enough has been said about movers/2 Gp aircrew/grdcrew. I agree with most statements about the movers but I've been treated well (generally) by the cabin staff on Tristars etc. The problem rests well above their pay grade.

I am however completely f&cked off with seeing Sqns having their time wasted before and after Exercises and Detatchments. There is so much time spent on cutting costs and personnel nowadays when I would ask that if in one year all the Sqns at Marham have wasted almost 50 days 'travelling' time due to 2 Gp ac unservicability - how much cost and waste does that equate to? How much personal cost to wives/husbands/partners does that incur. You get my point.

Why does AOC 2 Gp not bite the bullet and declare the fleet as only being (maybe) capable of servicing Operational Theatres and not any Exercises or Detachments. Therefore some of you may have a better chance of getting a spare aircraft to get you back from Basrah etc.

Yours

TUFO

[ZH875]

Why does AOC 2 Gp not bite the bullet and declare the fleet as only being (maybe) capable of servicing Operational Theatres and not any Exercises or Detachments.Simple....PROMOTION....KNIGHTHOOD...PENSION...et c etc

[Safety_Helmut]

Now I wonder, why are the Movers not posting their point of view
Probably find it difficult to type in the seemingly permanently fitted flying gloves they all wear.

Safety_Helmut

[fidae]

I've read this thread with great interest having been infuriated with the service provided by RAF AT in the past and also at times been pleasantly surprised, I'm not a great one for blaming individuals per se, the whole movements and AT set-up needs massive reformation which hopefully will come with something like LEAN...... oh Go help us

We appear to lag miles behind the civilian industry in our operations and procedures. I would, however place most of the blame on the leadership at Brize, Akrotiri, other permanent air heads and 2 Gp for not empowering the individuals to make reasonable and rational decisions. Waking passengers who have already checked in all their backs and will operating operationally the moment they arrive in theatre.....3 and 1/2 hours before the aircraft departs may be in the manual and the DAMO insists the manual is adhered too but it makes no f##### sense...well someone should re-write the manual. And not making the reception personnel realise that their job is vital to liase with dependents is poor simply poor leadership and management.

It is important we get it right so that we look professional and caring to our sister services, since the only meeting the average Army unit gets with air power is the SAC on passes and permits, the SAC on check-in, the corporal police man, the SAC dispatcher and the SAC steward/stewardess. These guys need to have it explained in no uncertain terms why there job is so important and more empathy is required. Evenmore importantly our RAF personnel don't feel respected by their own employer if they get treated like dirt on their own airline. Ultimately, somelike the staish at Brize or Akrotire has to carry the can.

Having ranted a little here i might add that the one time I pointed out the stupdity of a movements procedure at Akrotiri through the official channels it was changed by the time I returned.

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

My only bad experience of movers was when deployed with only 14 hrs notice. The deal was to get 10 bodies and 4 L/R Trailer combinations to Lyenham via South Cerney. We packed and lauched to South Cerney. On arrival, the RLC chaps emptied our vehicles and made us unwrap the batteries that were were so used to wrapping for AT flights (apparantly the AP had been changed such that batteries no longer had to be wrapped). They confiscated our heaters (kerosene fumes) and sent us on our way. On arrival at Lyenham, the RAF movers unpacked our vehicle, made us wrap our batteries (just in case) and loaned us a couple of smelly kerosene heaters.

Not exactly joined-up processing of pax.

PS. My funniest experience was on return six months later when the RAF Plod made me put my rifle through the x-ray machine; what was all that about?

PPS. I almost forgot. The enforced breakfast (no matter what time) at Lyneham Airmen's Mess, complete with a stroppy, red armband wearing youngster telling us that we had only 15 minutes to eat. I suggested he learnt his military rank structure.

[The Swinging Monkey]

November 4

Your attitude just about sums up what most (aircrew) think about movers - Yeah, 'you can't be arsed'
Sadly, that is how many/most of you approach your job aswell, you just can't be arsed.

There are so many negative comments on this thread, because there is so much negativity with most movers. They take great delight in going out of their way to screw people around, and I genuingly don't know why.

One of my last deployments using AT, was from Waddo to Thumrait. First we have the 'nause' of being bussed to BZN at about midnight fm Waddo, then a 5 hr wait in the gatehouse 'cos the aircraft is delayed for 'so and so'
Then the fiasco that is, going thru the RAFP run 'customs and check in' area. Have a fight with the plods, because 'you can't wear an aircrew knife in the aircraft Sir!' (what the hell is that all about then??)

Finally get airborne out of BZN to Akrotiri. Land there and go u/s. No big deal, '$hit happens' and we're going to be on the ground for at least 12 hrs. 'OK, please can we get our bags off the aircraft so we can get a wash, change clothes etc?' Only to be told by said mover 'Sorry Sir, no one is allowed back on the aircraft'

Spend the next 18 hours, in same $hitty, $melly flying suit that we had worn since leaving Waddo the day before. Finally gbet to Thumrait jus feeling absolutely crap! A great way to start an operational deployment. (maybe the RAF Flight safety Team should take a look at the effect all this nonesence has on aircrew??)

Movers? RAFP? Sorry guys, you are little more than an 'operating hazard' to most aircrew, and you all need to chill out, remember which side your on, and get a life.

Kind regards
TSM

[C130 Techie]

1. There is never any excuse for rudeness. The lack of proper use of rank on PA announcemnents and in general when dealing with customers reflects a lack of propoer training and a lack of general discipline within the workplace. This is not restricted to the movements world but can be seen in almost any section on any unit. The blame for this lies with the JNCOs and SNCOs who let this go on.

2. The issue raised by Lineslime with reference to movers operating ramps, applying aircraft power etc, has given me a cause to worry but I really dont know what the alteranative is. The line do not have sufficient resources to supply a techie babysitter for every aircraft load/unload.

3. In defence of the movers and cabin staff In my experience your average person turns into a complete pain in the backside when he/she becomes an aircraft passenger. They always have the most important piece of hand luggage despite it being twice as large as the limit and it must go in the cabin with them. They always want the seats with more leg room, the seat belt signs dont apply to them as they need to do something very important like get a book out of the overhead rack. The list goes on.

These people are there to look after our safety and general well being when we fly. In most cases they do an excellent job. When they dont, there is a complaints procedure in place as described in an earlier post.

[nooky]

As everyone has been bashing the RAF movers I thought that I would give you a prime target as I am a Civil Servant Mover working for the USAF in the UK (also an Ex-auggie Rockape).

Lineslime- surely the movers SHOULD NOT be touching the aircraft until the aircraft is fully blocked in (grounded/chocked etc). The USAF do not allow us to touch the aircraft until it is fully chocked and grounded and all the aircraft ramp operations are conducted by the Loadmaster or Maintenance personnel which gets rid of the problem of people in the wheel well.It helps that the maintenance people are part of our squadron as well so if they have any problems they talk to us directly or filter it through the control centres and vice versa.

Swinging Monkey- everytime we have an aircraft that rests over night either through crew rest or maint problems, then the Pax bags are downloaded as standard and then reloaded in the morning or when the aircraft is due to depart. That way the pax can change their clothes and wash etc.

These are our SOPs but we dont get involved with the Real Air Force much so I dont really know how they work. If you want to get meet some good movers albeit civvies then come into Mildenhall we will be happy to load/unload you

[dionysius]

"Have you tried to get to the CB with the back end full of crew bags, movers, pax and freight, about 30 seconds after the last prop has stopped spinning. It is impossible. Perhaps the movers would find it more prudent to wait untill the nose leg pin is inserted and the aircraft earthed before they drop the ramp. Just a thought.........."

Lineslime, the scenario you mentioned above would have nothing to do with the movers as the ALM is still in charge whilst pax onboard/props spinning etc, the movers traffic team are not allowed onboard to unload until all pax/crew have left the aircraft.?



:=

[MightyGem]

I can't say that I can recall many problems during my few airmoves during the time I was in. However, I always had the impression of the movers having that "I can f*** you about and there's nothing you can do about it" air about them.

[truckiebloke]

so these professional movers? like the one currently in bahrain who is sat nicely on a thousand a month rates, personal landrover discovery, working in civvies and having a right old laugh... oh and not to mention the stupid amount of money he is making on the side every time beer is shipped out of there to 'other places'...but only a dollar a crate...hmmm let me see, 1500 crates+ a week......

what a professional.

[Stax]

Swinging Monkey

Appreciate your comments about the bus to BZN. pain in the backside but not the fault of the movers or RAFP, Gp wont send the AT to pick up a few blokes from 1 unit. Sorry about the U/S A/C, again not the fault of the movers or RAFP, maybe look at the "lean" process when it comes to servicing. Knife in the cabin, CAA regs after Sept 11th prohibit such articles on passenger jets, if you have to divert into a civvy airport you are in breach, could look stupid eh? Anyway, why are you wearing a flying suit to travel on AT? You're hardly going to leap out and onto a sortie as soon as you arrve in Thumrait! Stuck on the ground for a while, well overnight they offload your bags and reload the next day. Stuck a few hours, wheres your admin gone? Always carry a small washkit, spare shreds, hand towel etc in your hand baggage, I do. By the way I am not a Mover or RAFP, but I have served with the Regt and as a PMOC detachee all over the world and never had the problems you seem to get, you talk about other peoples attitude, maybe you should check out your own first?

[lineslime]

dionysius
Perhaps YOU should tell the movers they aren't allowed onboard untill all pax/crew have left the aircraft, it never happens. It was always my understanding that movers shouldn't go anywhere near the aircraft untill it has been declared safe, for example all chaff and flares downloaded by the armourers, yet still they see fit to unload with stores still in the ducks bill.

nooky
I agree with the idea that all ramp operations should be carried out by the loadie or techies, but as C130Techie points out we don't have the manpower to babysit the muppets. Where as the usaf, on the other hand, have an abundance of manpower, it always makes me laugh when I see 8-12 bods doing a see in.

C130Techie
The alternative to having albert sitting on your noggin, thanks to the movements section is that they use the collective brain cell and talk to the techies, if not physically check the nose bay, before dropping the ramp. It isn't hard it only takes a bit of common sense.

[C130 Techie]

I agree, however can you ever see it happening?

[lineslime]

Not so long as the pope is catholic and my @rsehole points down.
:ok:

[nooky]

Lineslime
Your right we do have a few maint people at the aircraft, but the loadmaster has to be present whilst we load/unload the aircraft and they usually do all the aircraft ramp operations and cant leave until we are finished but then again on the C5s there are quite a few loadmasters onboard as well.

[The Swinging Monkey]

STAX,
thanks for the comments, however........
1. Didn't blame the Movers for the bus (or the Plods)
2. Didn't blame the Movers for the u/s jet (or the Plods again)
3. CAA regs eh? since when has the RAF (or any military unit comes to that) worked to CAA rules?? and what happens when I divert in my E-3 or Nimrod into a Civvie base then? Do I and the rest of my crew immediately get arrested and locked up?? Come on, get a grip.
4. At the time of this Op, it was SOP for ALL aircrew to fly in flying suits, and as it happened, on the event in question, the answer is yes, some of us went straight into a briefing and were airborne within several hours of landing in Thumrait.
5. No, I don't (and not many do) carry a div' bag on AT trips. (Have you been on an Op? just how much kit do you take with you pray??)
6. No, they did NOT offload the jet and reload it the next day.
7. My attitude, hmmmm. Well, as most of my comments on this matter seem to be the 'norm' fgor AT, I can only assume that you have been a very, very lucky bunny.

Sadly, it is a case of attitude as you say, unfortunately it is not my attitude that needs addressing, but the movers (and the RAFP) Maybe you have been lucky, maybe you have had the good mover on each of your trips. But I, and most people on this forum have not, hence all the bad press.

Kind regards
TSM

[Muppet Show]

Never felt the need to post until now but I needed to vent my spleen on some of the useful, but predominantly unhelpful, drivel posted to date. I like to think of myself as someone that does give a toss about the pax I deal with so forgive me if I take some of the previous posts personally. The Mov organisation (Army and RAF) is a 'service provider' to the rest of the military, and predominantly the fighting arms. Personal experience shows me that the system for getting people and kit from A to B works well most of the time despite the enormous challenges often faced with the equipment we have and the places we go to. No civilian loggie organisation has the same scale of challenges placed upon it. Unfortunately the system falls down occasionally and our job as 'Movers' is to recover that system with the minimal inconvenience to our 'customers' (horrible word). Reading the last 5(!) pages, I'm frustrated to see that we don't always do as well as we should. Give the trade some slack unless you have something constructive and / or factual to say. I am a strong believer that alot of the 'problems' are caused by a lack of understanding on both sides. Be you aircrew or engineer, if you have a problem then please talk it through with your Movements colleagues (yes, colleagues) rather than just ranting in the bar later, you may get somewhere.


Nooky, you've just answered your earlier point about the USAF's policy to onload / offload at the drop of a hat; they throw more and more manpower at the problems until it works. We do not have that luxury. Where we lack in manpower though, the RAF makes up with adaptability which is why we can turnaround ac with a 3 man UKMAMS team and an ALM yet the USAF would require at least treble that (3 x ALM per C17, drivers that are vehicle specific etc).

Lineslime, the GEs, SVCs and techies that I have worked with on the AT fleet have generally all been good blokes without big chips on their shoulders ('C130 Techie's' objective and fair posts are a good example) so what's happened to you? As you know, SOP for lowering the ramp on a Herc is to check the nosebay first; I have never seen anyone fail to do this properly, although it could conceivably (REMOTE possibility) happen. Rather than continuing the mudslinging (and ruining my good impression of Lineys), can I suggest that next time you plan to play with the nosewheel, you collar the Mov NCO and let him know first as a fail safe.

MightyGem, unless you can offer objective comment or factual examples please don't slag off an entire trade group based on a whimsical afterthought.

Cheers, rant over.

[Echo 5]

Muppet Show,

A very fair and reasonable post I would say. A rather refreshing change from the usual cr@p that is posted when Mover Bashing Season comes along.

Regards to all,

E5:)

[2port]

Muppet Show

A well written reply, BUT I can't agree with your point about the "remote" possibility of the ramp being grounded whilst someone is in the nose wheel bay. It HAS happened on numerous occasions, not every occasion, but more than can be attributed to a genuine mistake. Sadly it is more to do with the rush rush rush syndrome.

2P

[nooky]

Muppet show
Your bit about our drivers being vehicle specific isnt quite right at Mildenhall we dont have specific drivers we do the complete job, you must have dealt with our colonial friends probably at Ramstein. We have had them on Mildenhall and they do just drive or whatever they are set to do and just that so they do end up with a lot of people to do one aircraft where as at mildenhall we have a 4 man crew usually.
The USAF do seem to fly with an augmented crew on most of there flights as they can fly/operate for that bit longer with the extra crew or maybe because they are picking up some slightly out of the ordinary/ugly cargo.
I was not trying to offend or condemn the RAF movers and I hope I didn't come across that way as I have not really had any experience of working with them. I was just trying to point out how this mover worked and try to show how I thought every mover worked (probably badly)and your post has proved that we do all work in a very similar way and likewise we have some good movers and some that aren't.

[L1011GE]

so these professional movers? like the one currently in bahrain who is sat nicely on a thousand a month rates, personal landrover discovery, working in civvies and having a right old laugh... oh and not to mention the stupid amount of money he is making on the side every time beer is shipped out of there to 'other places'...but only a dollar a crate...hmmm let me see, 1500 crates+ a week......

Truckiebloke I can only guess that you are jealous..

The person that you mentioned is one of the best overseas based RAFLO'S and I am sure in your time you have purchased beer from him when all other suppliers have been closed.

[juliet]

muppet show - dont mean any offence but i dont think you have a complete grasp on what is actually happening out there with regards to the service that is given by some of the movers.

let me start though by saying that there are of course some very good people within the trade. these tend to be the more senior types, ie. the w/o, f/sgt and to some degree the sgts. i tend to get a very good service from these people, they tend to show a lot of pride in their work. i do however hold them partly responsible for those that do cause problems which in my experience has been the more junior types. i dont think that there is always the guidance given that should be towards those that are relatively new to the job. i extend this to include the actions of the officers who i have, on the whole, found to be mostly pretty ineffective. this isnt always their fault, inexperience is often a major issue.

as for the actual problems that come up, well where to start. on my last basrah det we encountered some sort of issue with the movers on pretty much every trip. we werent always delayed and loads werent always damaged, though this was down to the fact that the loadies were sharp enough to pre-empt the problems or fix them as they came up. the problems were things like pallets being 1000kg out in weight (it hadnt been weighed and only the loadies experience was there to tell us that the pallet definately looked wrong), wheeled loads not being checked weighed to determine the axle weights and so the distribution of the load, movers unable to tell us whether a load was in pounds or kg, inability to build a stack correctly, and one of my favourites, removing the nose wheel chox so that it could be used to facilitate the loading of a pallet with a set of forks.

now you said that we, as aircrew, should take this up with the movers concerned and i agree with you. i have tried to do just this. on doing a walk around i noticed the movers loading a pallet on the back without using the stool. i pointed out that this didnt look quite right. i was told "thanks sir but can you let us do our job" fair enough i thought, they probably know better than i. i did however mention this to my loady when he returned from ops. he was shocked and mightily pissed off that they were blatantly ignoring the rules. i had tried to point out something to these movers which i thought to be wrong and was met with an aggresive attitude. this, or feigning indifference is often the result of pointing out something that you are not happy with. all of these incidents as well as some others were pointed out to samo. the response was that the movers are inexperienced in both working in an operational theatre and working with the herc. that did not sit well as much of an excuse but i understood his situation, the guy didnt have much to work with.

i am sorry but my overall impression of the movers is that they are often poor at their job and that the cases of poor judgement are not isolated. like i said earlier you do come across some great guys who are fantastic but they are unfortunately in the minority.

[lineslime]

Muppet show
If you call a brief glance from the ramp, along the centre line of the a/c, towards the nose bay I suggest you think again. It just so happens thet the black round tyre shaped things do a good job of hiding a techies legs whilst in the nose bay, so a good visual from the front is probably a good idea. The only reason the techie is in ther in the first place is to make sure the a/c is earthed to ground, and to insert the nose leg pin. I mean it would be such a shame if some poor litte impatient mover got a belt of static wigglies or the nose leg collapsed. Just remember we are trying to make the a/c safe, not leave the shape of our skulls on the airframe. Besides it is you that is operating the ramp so therefore should it not be you who makes sure it is safe to do so?

I remember the teachings of a wise old chief, the most dangerous thing on a herc isn't the engines or crew but the movers.
:E :E

[Logistics Loader]

wonder if it was the same old wise C/T that walked in front a a vehicle being marshalled toward a Tristar...

something fell from the deck and narrowly missed said techie...pity...!!! would have taught a VALUABLE LESSON....!!!

you may heaps of beer tokens every month but still lack common sense !! sometimes !!

or maybe the JT that dropped his toolbox thru the floor on a Herc, covered it u using black nasty then rubbed foot over it to make it look old... !!!

[lineslime]

How the hell did something fall from the vehicle? Was it not secured properly or was the vehicle overloaded? It probably wasn't the same chief.
Ah the subject of common sense, badly missing from one individual who decided it would be clever to drive behind a herc mid 4 engine high power ground run. One talking to later he realised it would probably be better to go the long way round rather than lose the load, and any other loose items, to the prop wash.

[Muppet Show]

Lineslime, I wasn't having a go. I agree with your point entirely and in MY experience the lads do check properly. I accept that this may not happen every time but you have an equal responsibility for your own safety by making sure that people know when you go somewhere dangerous. No need to get defensive, as I said before you guys do a good job with the same limited resources as movers. Can we close this topic of nosewheels now please!

On a more serious note Juliet, your examples are sobering. SAMO BSR clearly knows the situation best and has not tried to bulls*it you there. Remember that the movers in BSR now are on an OOA and may have been working at a fast jet unit MSF, Odiham or Northolt for the last few years and not touched a Herc in that time; this doesn't mean they are not good at their trade, but that their C130 knowledge is not going to be the same as a LYE mover. What if your C130 Eng Det in BSR was manned by techies from Kinloss? (not a dig at Techies Limeslime!) Remember that movers are expected to handle multiple ac types (C130J and K, VC10, TriStar x 3 varients, C17, AN124, B747 etc ad nauseam) and try to maintain familiarity / currency on each. An ALM on the ther hand can concentrate on his specific ac type and is often a useful asset to a less experienced team. I am not in a position to make excuses, nor do I intend to; however, it is always worth retaining some perspective. Thanks for presenting your points in a balanced manner, it makes a change!
MS

[lineslime]

If the herc det was manned by thechies from kinloss (heaven forbid) then they would be expected to do at least the comp course, and then come back for a refresher before they go. Of course there will have to be SNCO's and JNCO's who hold the relevant trade Q's and up to date auth's due to the nature of the job. I think the majority of people rotating out to 1312, on the herc side, are now being plucked from lyneham rather than the four corners of the RAF.

[round&round]

Utter Muppet,

you stated:

Personal experience shows me that the system for getting people and kit from A to B works well most of the time despite the enormous challenges often faced with the equipment we have and the places we go to. No civilian loggie organisation has the same scale of challenges placed upon it.

I bet the transport manager for Tesco, Sainsbury, Asda, B&Q, Safeway, Morrisons, Comet........etc etc disagree.

I must admit though the loggie organization managed to airfreight us a whole lorry load of Tornado spares to a remote US base in just 36 hours. Shame we fly a 4 engine heavy!!! Got some very hacked off Tonka guys calling from Goose try to get some broken jets home. We spent the whole exercise flying at 50% capability cause the spares we needed were "stuck in the system".

The civilian loggies don't have the same scale of challenges cause they sorted them out 50 years ago!!!

[juliet]

muppet show - i mentioned inexperience and the fact that i recognised that it contributed to the service. however, i dont think that any of my examples could be explained away by saying that the movers were simply not used to loading a herc. i believe that they were all examples of common sense not being used. whether you are used to working with hercs or have come from a fast jet base, you should still be able to provide a correct weight of the load to the crew. i would also have hoped that even a mover that has been in an office job would know not to remove the chox from the wheels of an aircraft.

[Logistics Loader]

Lineslime..
it was the door frame protector for the left side of the door as you look out .... it was in the process of being fitted to the frame when it "slipped" from the grasp of the person fitting it...

on topic of Q personnel..i had similar experience on det in Aviano...dont recall any of the guys there being Q'd on C130...thank heavens for GE's... esp when i had to load pallets and needed the chox postioning correctly to ensure no damage to nose bay..

[Ray Dahvectac]

Knife in the cabin, CAA regs after Sept 11th prohibit such articles on passenger jets

Sorry Stax, this has been going on for YEARS. Paxing back in a C130 AKR-KIN in the late seventies, we got the same bull$hit at 'check-in'.

9/11 has caused a lot of changes in several different empires. But this isn't one of them.

[lineslime]

The problems within the AT fleet don't lie with the operating squadrons, or the menders, but with those sat in nice little offices tasking the fleet, the logistics organisation within the RAF and the people at the top doing nothing about it. We can only launch what we have, therefore the crews can only fly what we are able to give them.
with regards to the issue of flying on the AT fleet and not being in posession of sharp objects,such as knives, how many muppets and police do you see with their batman utility belts (leathermans, gerbers, etc) being transported around the world?

[MrBernoulli]

juliet,

You could assist us all by using paragraphs occasionally. Your post on the previous page is of interest but quite an eyeful. If you break it up with a bit of space then we will all be able to assimiliate it much easier. Thankyou.

I won't mention capitals .......

[The Swinging Monkey]

Lineslime,

Maybe thats the answer then, lets post the movers to a squadron. Maybe that way, they will take a little more pride in their performance eh? Sorry to further burdon OC's of the AT world, but it might just work.

I agree entirely with you about the AT crews and Sqns. It is most definately NOT your fault or problem, and I for one, do not attach any blame to you at all.

As you say, it is the faceless, behind the scenes people at the top who need a rocket up their nighties!

Kind regards
TSM

[lineslime]

TSM
Please edit your last post as I hope you meant to say " it is most definately not your fault........" as the rest of the sentance goes on to say this.
Apologies for being a pedantic tw@t.

[MightyGem]

MightyGem, unless you can offer objective comment or factual examples please don't slag off an entire trade group based on a whimsical afterthought
Wasn't a whimsical afterthought, it was my considered opinion at the time.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Lineslime,

Humble apologies Sir!
One too many grouse I think!! hic
TSM

[dionysius]

Took the liberty of borrowing this quote from another post (apols Maple 1) :

"I do hope the above was meant as a 'joke' - I'm reminded of a book I read recently entitled 'we all wore Airforce blue' the point being that the 'them' and 'us' approach is bloody divisive and should be stamped on at every opportunity IMO "

I appreciate this is a rumour site, however most of you are supposed to be adults and paid a lot of money by HMG to act in a "grown up " way, however my faith in the RAF has been dented severly by the childish and inane posts submitted in recent days.

It seems that there is a definite "Blackadder and Baldrick" system existing in todays smaller caring air force.

Should we all be pulling together to make the job easier in the current climate of less personnel and more overseas dets/guard duties ?

I appreciate that there are good and bad Movers out there, its the same with every branch, but surely rather than whinge about it lets try and see if their mistakes can be rectified and safeguards put in place to avoid accidents (Herc nosewheel incidents).

Lets all work together.

Rant over



:ugh: ;) ;)

[lineslime]

TSM
No need to apogise my good man, I knew what you meant. Keep up the good drinking.:ok:

[C130 Techie]

At risk of being totally of the subject but in response to your post.

I agree, however the post immediately before the one you plagerised on the closed thread is a classic example.

Quote from one "Deliverance"

"I don't think the other ranks care about the rights/wrongs of cases involving officers. They just want to see us fall."

If that is an attitude that exists in the Officer cadre, and I don't believe it does to any degree, then you shouldn't be surprised that we are where we are?

I hope this mans opinion is an isolated one as he is clearly a pompous @r$e

[fatter albert]

Got one for you...

I recently returned from Basra on a flight along with a team of Herc engineers. We were supposed to catch a Tristar home, but its DIRCM went t!ts and it diverted to Bahrain. Albert Air laid on 4 Hercs at no notice in order to ferry the Tristar passengers out to Bahrain and collect the incoming grunts.

One of the waiting Herc engineers who was due to fly out on the Tristar approached the Muppet WO in the terminal to ask if the engineers could be released from the departure lounge (read "Mover concentration camp") for a short while in order to help the few remaining Herc boys prepare the aircraft, thereby hastening everyone's trip home. The WO snapped something rude like "The RAF doesn't depend on engineers, you know" and sent them back into Mover Belsen.

We spent the whole night waiting in Basra while the handful of poor knackered boys outside prepared the Hercs. Meanwhile, a bunch of qualified Herc engineers scratched their @rses incarcerated in the Terminal.

Tw@t

[BEagle]

Disgraceful! I hope that you reported the attitude of that WO jobsworth to your boss when you got back

Is this really the sort of depth to which the RAF has sunk?

[Mobile Muppet]

For starters....

Once checked in through security its not the movers say for you to leave the terminal.. thats an ATSY/security matter. Get your facts right.

Don't believe there is a WO mover post in BSR..

Perhaps you should brush up on movements before you start slagging us off and find just how much control we have over some of the rubbish you lot are churning out. Our hands are tied by the rules just as yours are in your respective trades. (and its not your average mover who makes the rules up !)

Its the jobsworths sat in the ivory towers who control policy, like you we have to go along with it.

[Echo 5]

Mobile Muppet,

Well said old boy, that's told the bounders !!

BTW..............WTF have you been ?

Regards,

E5.:ok:

[Mobile Muppet]

E5,

Well been here there and everywhere but mainly warm sandy places..

Just been obseving the posts and biting my lip and having a chuckle as usual.

Oh, must appologise I believe there was a WO out in BSR. Not sure if he was a DWR or a stand in for an officer (DAMO).

Rgds MM

[November4]

Isn't he an Aux (Ex Reg) WO?

[round&round]

Mobile Muppet,

with the help of 2 bottles of God's squashed grape juice, I've decided that I don't like your tone very much.

Stop blaming everyone else for being at fault and accept that a Mover must have earnt said reputation somewhere and some how. Certainly, blame sometimes falls on the wrong shoulders, but how many repititions of damning evidence do you need?

Get promoted to top turd (movement) and sort it out and then post and tell us and we'll have a proper excuse for a top party!!

Regards,

R&R

[Mobile Muppet]

... and how I still chuckle ....

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Linechap,

If the ALM/Ge had any thing about them they would exit the aircraft for the shutdown with the nose pin in hand , maybe SOP's should reflect this or maybe, as this stupid rule is never enforced down route OC Eng WG should get a f@ckin life:rolleyes: . Or possibly his OC ENGness should re write the order to reflect that no ground crew, of any persuasion are allowed on the aircraft until the pin is in.

This would enable the "see in team" to insert the pin after the a/c brakes have been released, which is well before the hordes of "gypsies"....(I feel the need to add gypsies have no technical background) swarm on in search of "goodies"

Having done battle with the "thieves empire" 30 years ago at Oxon I now take great pleasure advising new ALM's in the art of bagging up anything worth having and where to stash it to keep the "luggage crushers" hungry :ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Stax]

Swinging Monkey
Apologies about the bus and u/s a/c comments, but the thread had turned into a Mover bashing match and it seemed to be unfair to blame them. As to have I been on an Op, try everything from Corporate onwards, do I carry spare kit in my hand luggage? Yes I do, just in case, it's called good admin or alternativley "expect the unexpected" its all part of being a well organised Tom. I recently diverted into a civvy airport and had to hang around on the pan until the powers that be got us into hotels, we then had to get changed in to civvies pror to leaving the airport. Oh one other thing, if it was several hours before you went off on a sortie, surely you had time to change?

[C130 Techie]

Deliverance - had you read my post and the preceeding ones properly, which of course you wouldn't.......

Your quote from another thread:

"I don't think the other ranks care about the rights/wrongs of cases involving officers. They just want to see us fall."

My point:

You and your "them and us" predjudiced attitude belong in the stone age. But then you wouldn't care because.............

[3xGreens]

C'mon Guys,

Why don't you all go to the " I'd like to thank " thread and post something nice.

[diginagain]

I'd like to thank TG18 (Movements) for an evening of fun, games, wit and banter.

http://www.rafmovs.com/cpgn/index.php

Great sport, and some familiar faces. More to come I hope?

[The Real Slim Shady]

Why not just turn the whole thing over to contract. That way you get a whole bunch of ex - mil pilots; all colours of uniform. But with the advantage of having your breakfast chucked at you by people trained in customer care.

Save money, keep everyone happy and seat back IFE:-)