ANZAC day.

[Ultralights]

Off to the march this morning.

In memory of those who sacrificed all.


Lest we forget.

[The Voice]

Yes Ultralights, I'm with you on this one.


To those that gave the ultimate.




Thankyou.

[cjam]

Was a chilly one.
I saw on TV last night that of the 6000 kiwis in bomber command 1850 were killed. Bad ratio. Does anyone know the ratio for kiws and ausi's at Gallipoli?

[tipsy]

Disco Stu is just back from the Dawn Service here at Caloundra, at least 1000 people attended as the sun came up over the sea.

He doesn't forget

tipsy

[gaunty]

cjam bomber command tragic as it was, was a walk in the park compared to Gallipoli.

You can't go to any town in Australia or NZ without there being a prominent memorial to them, they defined Australia forever.

God Bless em.

[Woomera]

"The British had contributed 468,000 in the battle for Gallipoli with 33.512 killed. 7,636 missing and 78,000 wounded.

The Anzacs lost 8,000 men in Gallipoli and a further 18,000 were wounded. The Anzacs went on to serve with distinction in Palestine and on the western front in France.

Australia had a population of five million - 330,000 served in the war, 59,000 were killed.

New Zealand with a population of one million lost 18,000 men out of 110,000 and had 55000 wounded. These New Zealand figures (62%) represent the highest percentage of all units from the Anglo-Saxon world."

And from the Australian War Memorial.........

"The whole Gallipoli operation, however, cost 26,111 Australian casualties, including 8,141 deaths. Despite this, it has been said that Gallipoli had no influence on the course of the war."

[Gnadenburg]

"Anzac Brave in an Anzac Grave".

Stumbled on this headstone amongst hundreds of other ANZAC's between the Nek & Baby 700. The most poignant fact about paying your respects at Commonwealth War Graves is the fact that in places like Gallipoli, you will rarely note a headstone with a digger older than 30.

" A good army of 50,000- and sea power. That is the end of the Turkish menace"-

First Lord Of The British Admiralty. September 1914.

[Ultralights]

ANZAC day is about remembering mates and fallen comrades and to acknowledge the sacrifices they made for us. nothing more.

who started what and why is Irrelevent.


lest we forget.

[gaunty]

Why was Turkey in the War?

As I am given to understand it a dud decision made by Churchill at the time was the root cause.

The Germans, Russians and British were all wooing Turkey as an ally for the absolutely pivotal strategic position they held in the area.

Turkey is trying to stay neutral they already have a row to hoe in the rebuilding of their own country without a war.

Britain was at the time building 2 warships for Turkey with money the Turks raised by public subscription to rebuild their Navy. Mum and Dad Turks nest eggs given up for the rebuilding of Turkeys prestige and status in the area.

Hounds of war start baying, Churchill then 41 and First Sea Lord, confiscates their 2 cruisers for the British war effort.

Turks, not surprisingly, outraged at the theft of the pride of their fleet.

The Germans send two of their ships in lieu, now we have a war with the Turks and must take the peninsula. The rest is history including the rank incompetence of the British Command.


Is this "big picture" strategy?? we'll never know, but it did have the effect driving Australia to self sufficiency and the birth of Australia as a nation in its own right rather than a fief or Dominion of the British.

Maybe it was worth the price. The scales fell off our eyes big time.
Maybe Gallipoli was our own War of Independance.??

Whatever it was, the price was way too high.

I find it hard to drive through any country town in OZ without reflecting on the loss of the flower of the youth of this country.

In more ways than most can imagine the loss irrevocably changed the face of Australia.

[redsnail]

Lest we forget.

[ConwayB]

Hi,

The idea of taking the peninsula was not new... and landing at Gaba Tepe was already considered as early as 1906 (if not earlier). Have a look at the map at www.ipas.com.au (and go to the "interesting stuff" page and military history to see the idiot's guide to Gallipoli and the origin of the name ANZAC) On the map created in 1906 you'll see the anotation just south of Gaba Tepe: "possible landing place"

Gallipoli (or Gelibolu as the Turks call it) was already slated as a killing ground. Australia and New Zealand (and the Brits and French to the south) were to supply the cannon fodder.

Long live Australia!

http://www.ipas.com.au/images/picture_Mt_St_Quentin_Digger.gif

[Ultralights]

even so, seeing Lone Pine in the flesh many years ago, sill remains one of the most emotional days of my life..


after going to the march today, its amazing to see the ever increasing number of younger children out there, even at the dawn service in martin Place.

its good to see that even after we have moved on, the Diggers will still be remembered.

[Hawk]

" Those heroes that shed their blood and
lost their lives...! You are now lying in
the soul of a friendly country, therefore
rest in peace.

There is no differences between
the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they
lie side by side here in this country of ours...

You, the mothers who sent their sons from far away
countries wipe away your tears. Your sons are now
lying in our bosom and are in peace.

After having lost their lives on this land they have become
our sons as well."

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (1934).

..lest we forget.

[atyourcervix73]

Brave Boys.....all so bloody young and excited to be off to war. They gave their all...Lest we forget

[Smrt Srbia]

Yes it is a great pity that so many lives were lost.

It is an even greater pity that World War I ever started.

But does anyone know what triggered the start of the War ?

Just for some information (some facts here) :

It was the assasination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand by a Serbian nationalist that triggered the start of the war

Plenty more facts on the internet for those who might not believe me.

[Gnadenburg]

Ultralights

It was Winston Churchill who was First Lord of the Admiralty. Gallipoli was his flawed obsession with the Dardanelles.

Schoolchildren need to know why we were at Gallipoli. Wars have not always been for the freedom of future generations. History has repeated. Where is open to debate.

And that is what I found remarkable about the place. How brave to go over the trenches with a rifle & bayonnet ( not loaded ) against machine guns. Knowing the futility of it, certain death at places like the Nek & Lone Pine, with or without the comfort of religion, side by side with your mates. A near suicide of our young nation became ANZAC.

Chunuk Bair is as moving too. With respect for our New Zealand neighbours.

[Eastwest Loco]

Mygrandfather was on Gallipoli. Not with the first wave but a little later.

He would say very little about what went on, but was a staunch believer that Johnny Turk was a good and honest fighter, and just doing his jobs as were the Aussies and Kiwis. He met a few in lulls in the fighting. Shook hands, and got back to work.

He would not hear one bad word about them, even though he was there to try to kill them.

I guess that is about where the honour in warfare literally went West.

There is no doubt what high esteem Australians and Turks hold for each other.

One good thing at least has come out of that monumental blunder on the part of the Brits.

Lest we forget.

EWL

[Ultralights]

EWL, during the weekend, and in a few documentories, it was noted that gallipoli was a "gentlemens war" as both sides treated each other with respect and no atrocities were committed.

makes you feel proud to be an aussie.

[Super Cecil]

Is it just me or does anybody else find the circus at Anzac Cove offensive?

People sleeping in graveyards, cheering and yelling throughout the service, big screen entertainment throughout the night, laser light show just before dawn and our own ******** Prime Minister saying it was OK to trash the place as that's what Sydney harbour looked like after new years eve.

This Prime Minister has turned a dignified service into a jingoistic, flag waving, yobbo circus.

This is somebody elses country that lost 10 times the amount of lives in the conflict than our own.

There has been a dozen or more places where Australians have died in equal or more numbers around the world, these are all places of significance to Australia. Australia's "forging" started in the gold rush and is still going on, this bull**** about a defining battle making a nation is just Lil Johnny's propagander. :rolleyes:

[Pinky the pilot]

Super Cecil; I suspect that a lot of Australians would agree with you! It is entirely possible that John W Howard has misread public opinion on this subject.
I saw one interview on the idiot box of one young lad at Gallipoli for the commemoration saying to the interviewer how proud he was to be an Australian etc whilst he was wearing his American baseball hat, on backwards as well.:yuk:

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

[Point0Five]

EWL, during the weekend, and in a few documentories, it was noted that gallipoli was a "gentlemens war" as both sides treated each other with respect and no atrocities were committed.

Ultralights I mean no disrespect what so ever, I've visited Gallipoli and have been moved by what I experienced. However, there is no such thing as a "gentlemen's war"... it is about the extreme use of violence to achieve political ends. The practioners may use discretion at times, but this doesn't create an environment where "no atrocities were committed."

This sort of jingoistic sentiment only serves to lessen the experiences of those who were there.

[Eastwest Loco]

Point0Five

All war is ugly, and because of the conditions this one was particularly ugly. The battle was however conducted on a one to one basis, by oponents that respected their enemy and at times took a time out to swap chocolates, tobacco and cigarette papers.

It may well be described as stupid behaviour, but at least the Anzac and Johnny Turk respected each other and I am damned sure both sides would have rather been home with their families.

The bottom line is the Turks and Aussies have a bond now - through the stupidity of previous Governments, and it is one well worth setting in concrete.

As for the mess left - it will be cleared up. Half of the problem was rummaging by gypsies, and the other half the lack of bins due to security concerns.

EWL

[Obiwan]

All war is ugly, and because of the conditions this one was particularly ugly. The battle was however conducted on a one to one basis, by oponents that respected their enemy and at times took a time out to swap chocolates, tobacco and cigarette papers.

Don't forget on Christmas Day 1914 the troops declared a cease fire (to the shock of their Generals) and exchanged gifts of food and even had a football match (the British won by the way :) )

Boxing Day the shooting started again.

[Transition Layer]

Sorry to detract from the true meaning of this thread, but I would have to agree wholeheartedly with earlier posts by Super Cecil and PtP about the behaviour of some of the Australians at Anzac Cove this year.

The sight of bogan young blokes my age, wearing footy jerseys, drinking copious amounts of p1ss and passing out in the war cemeteries is enough to make you sick. No doubt there were a few cries of "Aussie Aussie Aussie, Oi Oi Oi" in there as well.

These are the same d1ckheads who carry on at Oktoberfest each year, once again wearing their favourite Essendon or Collingwood jersey and drinking until they pass out and spew, ruining another country's proud tradition. Makes you really proud to be an Aussie. How long is it before we are loathed worldwide like the travelling Americans?

And then our beloved Little Johnny defends their behaviour at Gallipoli and the decision to hold a rock concert, which no doubt encourages the above mentioned shenanigans. Just another attempt of his to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

Once again, sorry to take the focus away from the true meaning of the Anzacs, may they rest in peace and be forever honoured in a more appropriate fashion.

TL

[Gnadenburg]

Ultralights

I think early in the campaign, there may have been undocumented attrocities. At Cape Helles ( south of ANZAC Cove ), a few British Officer POW's were bayonnetted if I recall correctly.

Also, the effect of high powered military rifles at close range ( and possibly artillery ) led to what was then unimaginable disfigurement of bodies on the battlefield. Early on both sides suspected the other of mutilating POW's. What or if any retribution took place is undocumented and purely anecdotal.

I must add that in future campaigns Australian soldiers were known for a bit of rough justice on a surrendering enemy - German machine gunners on the Western Front who would lay a hail of murderous fire and then sportingly surrender, were often shot with their hands in the air.

Cecil

I found it disgusting aswell. Even though many of the young ANZAC's larrikans tore apart Cairo as the first generation of Australian tourists, the goings on at ANZAC Cove seemed inappropriate.

Anyone pondering a venture to Gallipoli I would suggest the off season. You can have the whole batlefield to yourself.

[CoodaShooda]

Australia and New Zealand (and the Brits and French to the south) were to supply the cannon fodder.

Along with the 87,000 Turks, killed defending their homeland......

[Ultralights]

i too find the images of people sleeping on grave sitees disturbing, but daont take this as a defence, if you have ever been to lone pine, anzac cove and Nek, there is bugger all room for 5000 people as there was when i went there, and with 20,000 people, there is quite literally, standing room only!

The turkish governemnt now is trying their best to solve the issue, with new roads, but how far does it go? bulldose an entire hillside to make way for a camping ground? in the process disturbing many more unmarked war graves, destroying whats left of the trenches and dugouts?

rubbish is rubbish and temporay,i know, i live on cronulla beach, and every weekend after a few hot days, the beach resembles a tip! but by morning, its all cleaned up and raked.

even so, it still does not justify sleeping on the graves of those who now rest in peace in a foreign country serving their own.

[Dixons Cider]

Well this has made some interesting reading, having just this morning got back from ANZAC day at Gallipoli.

My initial reaction to the armchair experts and knockers, whose sole opinion seems to be based on what was seen on that wonderfully accurate and balanced provider of information (aka the telly), was to ignore it as pure blithering.

Then some images flashed into my mind, and I thought its time to add my bit. I'm not even gonna go back through and point out individuals to quote or rebuke, because quite frankly, I can't be arsed!

Who the fark cares if a bloke is wearing a footy jersey or a cap on backwards. What is your point?!? Perhaps you wish all visitors conform to your personal dress code, whatever the hell that is? Realise that ALL there had spent a cold night in the elements, to then experience some quite intense heat once the sun got up. Whatever one had used to cope with the conditions had to be carried on ones person, so yes it did make for a rag tag looking bunch by midday. I might also suggest that the troopies on the ground fighting for their lives in 1915 may not have been up to your dress parade standard also.

The point about sleeping in cemetaries. I can only comment about what I saw, but as to ANZAC cove and the dawn ceremony, I can't imagine there were many, if any in cemetaries on ANZAC eve. The reason being that space for the ceremony was at an absolute premium, so you had to find a spot early in the evening and stay there. If someone had gone off and slept in a cemetary somewhere then arrived for the dawn service, they simply would not have seen a thing. I did see people later in the day getting some horizontal rest, waiting at Chunuk Bair prior to the NZ service. If you had been there, you would know that Chunuk Bair is a relatively small area, and that the numbers on the day simply overwhelmed the area available. I did not see one example of yobbish, loutish behaviour. Quite the opposite, everybody seemed quite chilled and relaxed, in quiet contemplation or chatting amongst those around them. This was not a rock concert or a footy game. Same people (maybe), different situation. Now my point is, so what if a load was taken off weary tired feet in a cemetery, waiting for the remembrance service for those whose headstones surround you. I am quite sure, the diggers who fell were quite happy to be remembered. To me, the air seemed heavy with respect, with a desire to grasp the magnitude of what had gone on there.

As for pissed up larrikans - well I didn't see that either. Alchohol was not permitted in, bags searched etc, and tags placed on wrists to identify being cleared into the area. Of course, boooze got in. And I'm not going to deny it, I also took a little. There is nothing sacrosanct about that. We are not talking getting pissed up amounts here, just something to pass the night away in comaraderie and the bond of mateship. What I am talking about was summed up by the the NZDF Cheif of Staff in his speech. He said the boys fought so doggedly, not for the King, not for the empire, nor the politicians, their leaders or even their country. They fought for their mates, because that was the one real thing that mattered on those slopes and gullies. And that is what I'm talking about.

Might I also add, that I am not one of the young backbacking, exploring the world genre that were so prevalent on that day. But on the opposite tone to those previous to me on this thread, I was genuinely impressed with the way that the above group as a whole conducted themselves - standing when required without having to be told, singing the national anthem with pride and vigour, lowering the head and actually praying with the chaplain. I saw tears as I fought the lump in my throat at the playing of the last post.

Yes there was a lot of rubbish, alot. But that will be gone by now, and quite frankly, the facilities provided leave a bit to be desired. And already mentioned, the rummaging gypsies didn't help, some even trying to resell stuff on!!

I have gone on too much already, but if what I saw was the cream of our youth and the future if our countries, then we will be ok - regardless of some of the views aired on this thread, or the regurgitated views of some journalist.

Dixon has spoken

PS There is a large verse on the hilside, visible when travelling on the ferry between the Asian and the European sides of the Dardanelles, between Eceabat and Cannakale. (Incidentally, the battle that we call Gallipoli, the Turks call Cannakale). Even though the verse is in Turkish, certainly all in our group were aware of the translation.

It reads:

Traveller, Halt!
The soil you tread on once witnessed the end of an era.
Listen, in this quiet mound
there once beat the heart of a nation.


I saw respect, many times.

[Dave Martin]

Agree with much of the above re: Gallipoli becoming a circus.

On the other hand, a day tour around Flanders Fields is an extremely dignified and moving event. One I can recomend to any other antipodean as a good alternative to Gallipoli.

Sadly, the Gallipoli trip has become just another stop off in the drunken Contiki tour crawl around Europe and the Middle East.

Gotta say you've done it.

[7gcbc]

It is all very well to respect the dead, clearly in the case of the Gallipolli engagement, however I must stress that we need to look a little closer at John Howards administrations motives, and in partiucular the constant links drawn between that engagement and the current Iraqi and previous Vietnam episodes. Which to me is quite disgraceful.

Do you think you can compare the WWI or WWII engagements with the current Iraqi one and come to the same conclusion regarding sacrifice ?

To use Anzac spirit (as the media are so fond of pushing on us) to justify current engagements just demeans the boys who went before us.

There is no accounting for behaviour of drunk teenagers sleeping amongst the stones, the times dictate what we get, we just get used to it, yet these are the same teenagers that we may ask to go forth with Anzac spirit in future, I see no offense, and I'm sure neither do the young men sleeping under the turf at Anzac cove.

[Fox3snapshot]

Well said Dixons and 7gcbc have to agree with your final comment. Contrary to some of the earlier comments regarding the big screens and fanfare....bollox! If they didn't have them we would not have seen a thing!

The problems with the rubbish was exacerbated by the fact there were no bins and 20-30 local Kebap (yes Kebap not Kebab!) vendors at the crest of Lone Pine and as for the issue with the graves, yes not ideal but then again with only 3000 seats provided at the Lone Pine service, security were still quite happy to let 10,000 people through the gates!!!!!

The moments of loss and comradery, the purpose and the feeling of pride, respect and admiration for the ANZAC and Turk soldiers was not lost on the day.

But I guess you just had to be there!

:(