Cathay vs Air Canada?

[Captain Over]

I hope to be joining CX or AC as an "Off The Street" (non-regional) with ~ 6,000 hours, ~ 3,000 jet (over 2,000 medium jet > 70 Tons) plus management time, etc.

Base preference: Vancouver (or Hong Kong if CX) #1, Toronto #2.

Pension = ? Which is the better of the two?

Pay = ? (Overall, I mean. The first years are known but will one pay better than the other in terms of pocket cash? Taxes a big factor, of course.)

Time to command = ? All I can find out is at CX it is about 4 to 5 years on the freighter side to command. AC = ?

All things considered, gaze into your collective crystal balls and help my look down both streets from the cross-roads here. And just the facts as best guessed, please. The bashing and naysayers have already spoken. I would appreciate best speculations on the above. Thanks very much.

PS I have searched extensively on these matters but can't find specific recent info.

(Title edited to clarify the subject)

[cpdude]

Well lets have a go at it shall I?

Base preference: Vancouver (or Hong Kong if CX) #1, Toronto #2.
You meet the requirements for a Freighter F/O but you could also join as a Pax S/O. As a Freighter F/O you will be NA based for 3 years following training at LAX, JFK, ANC. You will have to commute if you decide to live anywhere else on your dime. After training and the 3 year time on frieghters you could transfer to pax and apply for a YVR base. Total time from hire to a YVR base if available would be about 3 1/2 to 4 years time.
Or, if you joined as a S/O you would be in Hong Kong for the first 5-6 years approx. till able to bid for a base. This would be the best approach if you want YYZ as you could try to get a Airbus assignment when going for JF/O.

Pension = ? Which is the better of the two?

CX doesn't have a pension but they pay you 15.5% gratuity every month which you can take as cash or invest in a restricted mutual fund family. AC has a pension but we have seen what can happen to pensions if an airline goes bankrupt...look south!

Pay = ? (Overall, I mean. The first years are known but will one pay better than the other in terms of pocket cash? Taxes a big factor, of course.)

CX is much better as AC takes many years to catch up and even more years to make up for the loss of revenue in the first 5-10 years.

Time to command = ? All I can find out is at CX it is about 4 to 5 years on the freighter side to command. AC = ?

Freighter command can get very short especially if you're interested in a B747F in Europe. 4-5 would be about right for a B744F command if you make it through the hoops. Pax command would be about 9-11 years. AC could be 25+ years if you want a YVR base command.

Which to choose? Well, I think that is up to your needs and personality. Do you like to live as an expat? Are you looking more for the excitement of living abroad with good pay and many options or would you rather have total control of your schedule and life? I'm with CX and very happy but some find the schedule and the operation very frustrating. If you never plan on going to Hong Kong and living abroad, then go for AC. But remember, a non-resident gets to pay NO CDN TAX and HK tax can be as low as 8-9% for a family making less than 1 million HKD.:ok:

[Kevin Ho]

Not sure you will be flying the A32X series if you join Air Canada.
But sure you will be flying the heavy metals if you join the Cathay Pacific. ;)

[GlueBall]

...And you'll be forking over a lot more of your discretionary income if ever you have to pay for your own [tiny] apartment in overcrowded HKG. Population density: 15,000 people per square mile.

[Captain Over]

I've heard CX pays for the mortgage on your home in HKG (but not elsewhere?? sub question...WHY not?) and the amount they provide for a HKG accommodation will get a nice place (from what I personally have viewed there).

Thank-you for the comments so-far. Very productive answers. Anyone (everyone!) else, please?

[cpdude]

Yes, the housing allowance has dropped over the past year but you can still get a nice place to live at little or NO cost to yourself. You can rent a nice place free of charge or buy a unit costing you only 10 to 30 cents on the dollar depending on price. Only S/O's for the first two years have it tough if they want or need a larger unit.;)

They only pay housing allowance in HK because everyone is an expat living in a very high cost place for accomodation.

[Medwin]

I would apply to both carriers and see if I can pass the interview process first and then I'll make a decision. You get more informations from the interviewers that way.

[Turbo Beaver]

MONTREAL - Air Canada plans to upgrade its fleet with as many as 36 Boeing 777 and 60 Boeing 787 Dreamliner aircraft, the company's parent firm, ACE Aviation Holdings Inc., said Monday.

The airline said it has placed firm orders for 18 Boeing 777s, with rights to the remainder. The 777s are slated to go into service in 2006.

Air Canada has also placed firm orders for 14 Boeing 787s, with rights and options for the remainder. The first 787 is due to arrive in 2010.

Boeing said the price of the firm orders is about $6 billion US.

"Our decision to modernize our fleet with the 777 and 787 Dreamliner will move Air Canada into a clear leadership position among North American international carriers with the world's two newest and most efficient twin-engine, long-haul airplanes," said Robert Milton, chair, president and CEO of ACE.

The deal is expected to be finalized by the middle of 2005.

Milton said the new 787s will save Air Canada about 30 per cent on fuel consumption and maintenance costs compared to the 767s they will replace.

Restricted voting shares of ACE were off 50 cents at $35.30 on the TSX on Monday.

[meaw]

Capt Over,



I don't know much about CX but I have been with AC for about 10 Years know....


As far as the pension is concerned ,if you were to retire today from AC after a 25-30 year career you would get approximately 110,000-125,000 Dollars CAD per year as our pension is defined benefits wich means you are not subject to market fluctuations.

In terms of flyi the heavy metal: Some of the entry level positions at AC are A340 or B767 Relief F/o if thats what you want and I believe that CX starts you out the same (if in Pax fleet).So if heavy metal is what you want you can get it right away.


Upgrade time: We have just gone through 9/11, SARS, a terrible merger and a bankrupcy so the times right now are worst case scenario and anyone who has been in aviation long enough knows that time to upgrade can change 180 degrees in a flash....good or bad even at CX or EK and AC.
Right know the most junior A320 Capt is in YYZ and has 10 years seniority making 175,000 CAD per year.

A junior widebody F/o on the 767 will require about 6 -7 years seniority in YYz.

Toronto is the most junior base as all the growth is there and Vancouver and Montreal the most senior so upgrade times longer there.

Most junior Captain position is Embraer 195 and junior Captain on it in Montreal has 7 years seniority and will make, 130 000 Cad per year.

I am 767 f/o (by choice) and I clear after all deductions around 6000 Cad/months in my pocket for about 75 hours/month wich equates to 12 days(approx)

These are upgrade times after the blackest period in our history.But with 60 Embraers 195 and 36 B777 and B787 and 800 retirements in the next 5 years you can bet that upgrade time will be very short.Just before 9/11 upgrade to 320 Capt was 5 years in YYZ (longer in YUL/YVR).


The great thing about AC is that if you want Longhaul widebody you can have it ,but if you get tired of it (and most do fairly quickly due to the weird hours) you can fly equipment and routes that get you home every night and with reasonable hours...

If you want to travel or commute you get an unlimited amount of passes on AC and Z fare travel on other airlines for you and your spouse and you just pay for the taxes.

The flying is just as varied as Cathay as we have routes and layovers around the world.

Meaw

[betaboy]

Meaw,

The Captain wages you quoted look about 20% higher than those shown on

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/96/11/

For eg.:

You say A320 Capt 10 years = $175k
Web site says (173*70hours*12) = $145k.

Do you know if that scale is totally out to lunch, or out of date?

[meaw]

The rates on that website are a little simplistic compared to reality.

On top of the hourly pay numbers we have a day and night pay where night flying gives you an extra 15 or so Dollars per hour.

There is navaid pay also for when you fly outside North America wich ads to your monthly total.

Finally the salary you talk about is at 70 hours per month and that will almost never happen.You need to figure around 77 hours to 80 hours as that is what it usually comes out to at the end of the month with block growth.

When I said that the most junior captain has 10 years in the company and a 320 captain makes 175k/year I was not clear in that I didn't figure the 10 year scale to the dollar but was giving the average number from the guys that I was flying with recently and they are a little more senior than 10 years for the most part.

I looked up the pay scale on our union website and a 10 year captain ,if you want to use as a yardstick, would make between 167-170k/yr depending on the flying done .

A 6th year F/O on the A320 will make beetween 91000-96000 Dollars/year.

As for the 767 and EMJ195 salaries I doublechecked and they are correct.

Hope this helps

[Kevin Ho]

Indeed not a very high pay salaries.

But what makes a pilot to fly the A320 and the A340?

Thanks

[Flexable]

320 Ca at AC hourly wage around C$160/h with a garantee around 70 h/month. Max at about 80-82 h/mo. With a C$ at about US$0.80

But do not forget in Canada land EH! Income tax for salary above C$75K/yrs is at around 50% rate.

[Dropp the Pilot]

The Air Canada retiree my have $100k doled his way annually at the end of his career but the expat retiree personally owns the capital which generates that $100k. These situations are in two completely different universes of family prosperity.

Personally, I netted $237,000 last year in the expat pilot game. You can see how net worth stacks up pretty quick under those terms as compared to $135k less 50% for Martin-and-tennis-partners, GST and mortgage payments.

[cpdude]

That is so true.;)

[tamalai]

Ah, yes, the good old "Defined Benefits" scheme, whereby the company hods your money and spends it at some point to keep the company afloat. You then get a nice letter saying "Sorry, shag, no pension for you" Check with some of the ex-US Airways guys joining cx in droves right now.....................
Thanks very much but (By the way how many times HAS Air Canada been in administration/Chapter 11 whatever they call it ?), no, At least the cx provvy fund is paid to a seperate company into an account in the indivduals name....................so, when you leave you get a nice big cheque to spend on whichever ex wife you choose !!!

Sorry CX vs AC..................no contest..................CX everytime

[Saltaire]

You'd be much further ahead at CX, I've worked for both and the disposable income is vastly different. Not to mention the equipment and route structure among other things. Quite simply, CX is a far better company and is more of a finely tuned instrument, AC is an old out of tune bar piano. I would have been on a 320 for years and years as an F/O flying domestic at less than 100k. YVR base would be even longer.

I'd be surprised if the defined benefit pension is around in another ten years at AC. As mentioned, with hundreds of retirements at higher levels, doubtful this will be fully funded in the future. If it is, it will benefit those in retirement, not someone with 20 years left. The wages will be kept low to offset the costs.

My comparison would be for a younger person with mainline, not the freighter option, but even so, I think CX would offer a more interesting career. AC will have better days ahead and it is still a great option, but that's my perspective.

[meaw]

I think you have to ask yourself what is more important to you in terms of career and lifestyle......While we can debate endlessly about CX and AC in terms of who's got better routes and wich one will give you more money in your bank account, the one thing that you cannot dispute is that if you join AC within a few years you will have a paycheck that in Canada gives you an excellent lifestyle, a nice home, nice car, golf, sky whatever you want. Yes we pay lots of taxes, yes you may get lots of domestic flying for the first few years but despite all the pay cuts when you look a few years down the line you will be having a great life in Canada, with enough disposable income to live in great neigbourhoods and travel lots.

Do you know if you will like the expat life in 5,10,15 years?
Do you know if you will like living in Canada?That one I bet you know.

What will your wife think of it also is important because even if you have your million in the bank you wont be happy if the family isn't happy.

I have worked overseas in the Middle east and asia and let me tell you that when the s...it hits the fan you will be happy to be in a country like Canada.
And while some may prefer CX or EK or whatever and that is fine because they all have good points and they do make lot's of guys very happy.........you are not making a mistake with AC .

Just think about it: Wouldn't you rather be at AC wondering about CX than overseas wishing you could be home?
Lifestyle is what it's about in the end, not if you are on a 777 or a 320.

And Tamalai, AC has been through bankrupcy protection once and emerged much more powerful and the better for it. But what makes you think your airline is imune? On good spell of bird flu and what makes you think you will not suffer? We are all in the same boat in the end....

And your comment on the pension....the law here is different than the USA and the vast majority of your pension is not in the company's hands and is protected.

[betaboy]

Well, this has been quite the reasonably balanced debate. Lots of interesting points.

Unfortunately, this isn't really a decision most of us will ever have to make; CX is hiring, AC is not. And yes, lots of rumours about AC hiring by year end.... but that's what I thought about 5 years ago too, right before the layoffs!

[cpdude]

meaw,

You make a good argument for those that are unknowing but your facts are terribly wrong!

the one thing that you cannot dispute is that if you join AC within a few years you will have a paycheck that in Canada gives you an excellent lifestyle, a nice home, nice car, golf, sky whatever you want.

Yes I can! I will have an excellent lifestyle, a nicer home, a nicer car, more golf and more of what I want then if I were at AC.

Yes we pay lots of taxes

I pay lots of taxes too if I take a Canadian base.

Do you know if you will like the expat life in 5,10,15 years?

Did you know many have never lived in Hong Kong? As a freighter F/O you can start with a NA base then transfer after 3 years to a NA pax base and thus never be an Expat.

And while some may prefer CX or EK

Two completely different airlines with completely different lifestyles for an employee’s family.

Just think about it: Wouldn't you rather be at AC wondering about CX than overseas wishing you could be home?

What about living in YVR with 18 days off a month flying a 747-400 to Asia? Not with AC. Only catch is you start on freighters based in NA for 3 years and during this time you will be home about 12-14 days per month.

CX has never furloughed pilots although granted 49 were fired in one gulp but only because they challenged the company. If you’re smart and most are at CX, you will never have to ever worry about your job!
:)

[shortly]

When I first saw this thread I thought it was a joke. On reading the posts I find that a few are taking it seriously. My tuppence worth is, I'd rather work for CX who have never, in approaching 60 years of operations, made an operating loss. They have declared a couple of petty cash losses but still operated at a profit. Air Canada well you see that's why I thought it was a joke.Seriously though it is a lifestyle thing and those who cannot cope with the hectic pace of life, and the pollution are probably better off in Canada. I remember a joke - man in doctors surgery, doctor says if you give up beer, smoking, gambling and sex you will live a lot longer....or it will at least seem that way. Yay Canada.

[cpdude]

But it's so much more than just one carrier over another!

With AC you get the standard starting position in Toronto or Montreal. Year’s later maybe a cruiser position in Vancouver. You will move or commute to one of these cities for the rest of your life. That’s it!

With CX you have options...many of them. You can join as an S/O and live in HK for 5-7 years then take a base. With bases in Europe, Australia and North America you decide where you go and where you live. If you have the option of a foreign work permit you can live in Europe working from one of several major cities for several years. Then if you want, move back to NA with one of several bases here.

You can join as a direct F/O on the freighter and remain in NA for the rest of your life or if you change your mind, move to any of the other bases around the world.

But, if all you want to do is live in Toronto for the rest of your life, go with AC. So the bottom line is do you want options and excitement in your life or the hum drum life of AC in YYZ?
:)

[AnQrKa]

I have always been led to believe that an employment ban exists between KA and CX.

Does anybody know if this is set in concrete. Has it been tested. Does it apply to pax and cargo fleets.

[ixion17]

Interesting debate this - and it just happens to be a relevant and real issue for several of us in UK having to consider with offers from CX and other mainline carriers on the table. And I thought getting through the selection process(es) would be the difficult bit!

[meaw]

Cpt dude, when you say you will never have to worry about your job at CX that leads me to believe that either you are not really in aviation or if you are you havent been there very long.....everybody in aviation is at risk of loosing their jobs as anybody out there knows it only takes a war or attacks somewhere or SARS or high fuel prices or whatever but anyway that is not really the point.

Job security at CX......It seems to me it might be good except:
A- You open your mouth (i.e see the 49ers)

B-You fail a SIM

c- You fail to show up to your so-called NA bases because you commute to it ( as most of the CX guys I know do)

So if you are the type to worry about having a bad day in the sim or full loads on your commute or saying the wrong thing to the wrong person....job security might elude you.
We might have laid off in the past but everybody is back ,but most importantly we HAVE STRONG LABOUR LAWS and we HAVE FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION you get dude ....FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION and that is worth lots of cash and nice cars etc...

As far as living the ho-hum life in Toronto.........if that is where you are from how is that bad.....No excitement you say.....
Go skiing, kayaking, parachute jumping ,chase girls, go off-roading, hunting,fishing, skating,play hockey, running,hicking,shopping or travel the world on your passes.
I just dont get why you think Canada is not exciting and HK or CX or whatever you are refering to is.

[777300ER]

This thread is reaching the end of it's life. Anybody that even needs to think about which is better should probably avoid Cathay for the simple reason that you probably won't make it through the process.

[cpdude]

Meaw,

Well let's just see here...you said;

"Job security at CX......It seems to me it might be good except:
A- You open your mouth (i.e see the 49ers)

B-You fail a SIM

c- You fail to show up to your so-called NA bases because you commute to it ( as most of the CX guys I know do)"

A. Why do you need to open your mouth? Your hired to fly aren't you? So you don't need to be the big shot.

B. You can have a bad day in a sim and get a low score on one or two items but if you do fail a sim you still won't get fired. Fail two and maybe you will but if you fail two sims maybe you should be fired.

C. Well, guys always push it to the limit don't they? CX requires you to be on location 12 hours before a flight. They don't check up on you to see if you are on location, they just want you to be there for the flight. But some guys don't like to go so early so they cut it closer and closer til one day they miss the flight. What else should CX do?

You guys in strong unions relax and take the support of your union. You know you won't get fired and so you don't need to be sharp or proffesional. But your right, if your a slacker...you better go to AC because CX will fire you.:)

[767-300ER]

CPDude....

I think a few people have mentioned, a company that can unilateraly fire you, by paying you 90 days pay, fire you for tossing some peanuts at a senior executive, demote you on the seniority list (doesn't happen in a union shop in NA) for disciplinary reasons....that unilateraly change the COS for rostering etc etc etc...

Cathay perfected the A, B, C, D pay scales....

And of course you forget to mention the formula pay system that allows a pilot to trade seniority and pay to come up with their preferences as to base, equipment and monthly flying...

You can fly the CRJ, the EMB 175 or 190, the A319/320/321, the B767-200ER/-300ER, the A340-300, -500, the A330, and soon the B777-300ER, the B777-200LR, and the 787-8, -9.....

One can chose to fly domestic, transborder, international, long haul and ultra long haul (soon)....

Cathay pilots have quit to join Air Canada and Air Canada pilots (a couple that I know of) have quit to join Cathay.

[shortly]

In all reality it should be three sims you fail before you face the man with the axe. No doubt CX is a patriarchal company, just play the game fair and you will never have a problem. Bend the rules to suit yourself and ... well your call. Anyway you look at it Hong Kong is a more exciting place to live than Canada. Even on Letterman the other night a guest asked if all Canadians go to the same school of advanced boring, the reply was of course not there's one in every Territory.

[meaw]

Cpt dude,


If you are a slacker or unprofessional go to AC.......

i THINK YOU ARE PRBABLY BITTER because you did not make it in to AC. We have one of the best safety records in the world and one of the best on time performance.......not typycal of unprofessional pilots. As far as being slackers.......you are an i....t.Most guys flying here spent years and years flying in the bush,loading and unloading palnes doing the refueling, flying their asses off at charter airlines or in the military.The average pilots had to work like a dog for at least 10-15 years to get in.

No one here is an ab-initio BS who was in the right seat of an Airbus with 200 hours so you have no clue what you are saying.

As far as having a strong union, in aviation you need one.....I will refer you to the 49 rs thread , or the QR threads or the EK treads or MAS or whatever one you want to pick.A strong union is a must but that in no way means we are not reasonable or slackers we just work our buts off and sacrificed big to get here and we deserve RESPECT.

As far as Canada being boring guys you do not know what you are talking about.I am still waiting to hear from you what it is that WE do not have here that you do.Believe me saying we are boring is prejudicial. Why dont you come for a weekend in Montreal ,we ll go out on the town and I bet you will be commuting from Canada.

Oh and before I forget Dude......when you say we are only paid to fly and keep our mouths shut.....I see communism is really doing wonders on you.

[tamalai]

Extract rom "The Enlarged Devil's Dictionary" by Ambrose Bierce:

Mankind : An animal so numerous as to inhabit the whole habitable world..................................and Canada !!!

[cpdude]

Hey meaw,

i THINK YOU ARE PRBABLY BITTER because you did not make it in to AC. We have one of the best safety records in the world and one of the best on time performance.......not typycal of unprofessional pilots. As far as being slackers.......you are an i....t.Most guys flying here spent years and years flying in the bush,loading and unloading palnes doing the refueling, flying their asses off at charter airlines or in the military.The average pilots had to work like a dog for at least 10-15 years to get in.

I guess AC pilots are not known for their spelling, regardless, we have a similar background among our pilot group. Who said I wasn't with AC previously? I note that your airline performance is in the top 50...nice!

No one here is an ab-initio BS who was in the right seat of an Airbus with 200 hours so you have no clue what you are saying.

Actually, you’re wrong on that account. AC hired many from Seneca College in the late 70's and early 80's all with only 200 hours. Most are still in AC.

As far as having a strong union, in aviation you need one.....I will refer you to the 49 rs thread , or the QR threads or the EK treads or MAS or whatever one you want to pick.A strong union is a must but that in no way means we are not reasonable or slackers we just work our buts off and sacrificed big to get here and we deserve RESPECT.

Sure, look what the strong unions did in the USA. During the profitable years they strong-armed the airlines to pay a ridiculous salary and benefits which directly affected the ability of the airlines to survive a recession. Also, didn't anyone ever tell you buddy that you earn respect not demand it. Yup, your a bush pilot.

As far as Canada being boring guys you do not know what you are talking about.I am still waiting to hear from you what it is that WE do not have here that you do.Believe me saying we are boring is prejudicial. Why dont you come for a weekend in Montreal ,we ll go out on the town and I bet you will be commuting from Canada.

So what makes you think that I and many others don't already live here? Or maybe we could if we chose to. Oh ya, it's what we do not have that makes it great...HIGH TAXES!

Oh and before I forget Dude......when you say we are only paid to fly and keep our mouths shut.....I see communism is really doing wonders on you.

Sure does comrade!:ok:

[cpdude]

Hey meaw,

Are you really with AC?:8

[cpdude]

...so punk...are ya?:E

[tamalai]

It would appear that the question (as initially posed here by Captain Over) has been answered by the very same (Capt Over) as he is now asking how to import his Dog/cat or perhaps other culinary delight into Hong Kong............................

So its Cathay 1 Air Canada 0........................

end of thread, eh ???

[meaw]

Yeah Dude I am and have been for quite a few years punk

And you are you really with CX......I doubt you're eevn an airline pilot

[cpdude]

Just havin fun with ya...ohh, that's mum callin me for lunch...see ya!:D

[meaw]

Just announced today by management,

AC hiring 600 pilots this year......looks like a good time to come and move up the ladder quite fast I would say.

[Captain Over]

To Tamalai (mentioned personally for the laughter generated!) := and everyone else that contributed to my original quest - thank-you very much for your time, and valuable input (minus the usual de-railings and mud-slingers...grrr!). Your information is appreciated.

I'd love it if I get on with CX. As a back-up, AC does come close, but CX does have the edge overall, in my opinion. Your posts here (and elsewhere) have confirmed my decision.

As a famous (infamous?!) TV detective once said... "Oh, just one more question..." What is the deal about having CX buy a house in HKG? What is the monthly mortgage limit? Is there a max term? Thoughts - buy in HKG, stay there a few years, then bid for a N.Am base (and sell the house, of course!).

Thanks once again to everyone that made all the great positive postings here.
:ok:

[Penske]

What is the deal about having CX buy a house in HKG? What is the monthly mortgage limit? Is there a max term? Thoughts - buy in HKG, stay there a few years, then bid for a N.Am base (and sell the house, of course!).

You have just broken the code!

It is not inconceivable that if you invest in Hong Kong real estate (with Cathay's money) for 8 to 10 years, you can return to north America with 1 million in equity.

There are lots of different options, but if you were to arrive at Cathay with this as your "10 year plan", I would wager that you would come very close.

Good luck with your future. Setting career goals for yourself is very important and it sounds like you are well on your way.

[smo]

Meaw wrote:

"Just announced today by management,

AC hiring 600 pilots this year......looks like a good time to come and move up the ladder quite fast I would say."


There is only one minor problem. I don't have Left seat, 2 crew, night IFR carrier landings in the spaceshuttle logged yet!

[droptine]

It is when I hear things like - 'AC is going to hire 600 pilots this year' that it makes me REALLY happy I am at Cathay. In 1999, AC said they were going to hire 150-250 pilots per year indefinitely. New hires were told by the DFO that they could conceivably be FO's on the 767 in YVR in two years. Four years and change later the initial number was just shy of 700 lay offs. Granted 140ish were furloughed. But now back to the roller coaster - 600 new hires in a year.

Cx's steady controlled growth (and profitability) make it easier for me to sleep at night.

The cyclical nature of most North Am majors - mass hiring followed by lay offs during the next trough is something that is always a concern. The best you can hope for is that is you get hired early enough that retirements and modest growth will have you outlive the furloughs when things start going South.

On that note - Cx has never forloughed a pilot.

My congrats to AC and their employees. I wish them all the best in their growth. I do truly hope that all of my Canadian friends busting their butt in GA get their airline seat with AC and more importantly are able to hang on to it when the next down turn inevitably rolls around. And for those of you currently at AC congratulations on the new order, planned expansion and hiring boom!

[Dockjock]

I'll take AC, thanks. I guess that makes it
CX 1, AC 1.
Gotta go, must let the dog out into the yard. You do have backyards over there in HK dontcha? oh sorry.......;)

[boofta]

Dear Dockjock,
Yes, sadly most CX pilots don't have backyards and dogs.
But, after a few years of sacrifice in HKG most of them buy
huge backyards in YVR when they take basings there.
It's okay to crow about your lifestyle, but realise that most
CX pilots will own several large backyards before you finish
paying the mortgage on your first.
Enjoy cleaning up after your dog, I prefer cats.
AC 1, CX several

[Dockjock]

Fair enough. But I think you'll find its the CX guys that are doing most of the crowing. Sounds like a good job, enjoy it.

[Goonybird]

Count me in for AC...after 9 years of CX I can't help but wish I'd gone to AC. I'd much rather make very slightly less money, have control of my roster, have a difined benefit pension and actually see my kids grow up.
Sure beats being a slave to the Swires doing 90 hrs a month with 10 days off spent in the DB plaza breathing toxic air counting money.

[cpdude]

The interesting part of your preference Goonybird is at 9 years in CX you most likely joined as an S/O with say 1500-2000 hours and nothing larger than a Metro, maybe even a Navajo? So with that experience back in 1996, AC probably wasn't an option for you otherwise you might had gone at that time. For argument sake, if you were accepted and joined AC in 1996, you would have had many years with an after tax salary below 40K then concerned about a furlough after 911. At CX you have enjoyed an average after tax salary of over 90K. So, stress, poverty for simple control of your roster…I think not!

I suspect that you’re the victim of your own desire Goonybird. During your first 3 years as an S/O you would have had plenty of time at home with the family. Then, you could have waited for a bus course and try and get a base ASAP. But you probably went 777 didn't you? Lousy roster but lots of flying which speaks volumes about your priorities. Your still living in HK probably to make the most of being a non-resident and save on taxes. Again, another priority. You could take a base now but you’re close to a command and you want to stay. Another choice. You don't have to take a command and you could take a base and be home 18-20 days a month but you choose not to. Don't blame CX for that and don't pretend that you had the choice to go AC and turned it down...I don't believe you when I see the other choices you have made.

Priorities in life...take responsibility for the choices you make!
;)

[meaw]

Cpt Dude,

Had you joined Ac in 1996 , you would have made around 45k in 96 and 1997.From 1998 to today ( about 8 years) you never would have made less than 110 k /year as you would never had gone lower than A320 FO. Depending on what you bid you might have even spent time as a DC9 Capt in YYZ at 150K/year and today would be senior wide body f/o , well above the 120k/year mark.

As for layoffs you would not even have come close with a 1996 seniority.

Check your facts before you ramble on.

[Goonybird]

Thanks for the laugh and outrageous speculation, you didn't get a single point right! LOL
I joined with over 5000 hours, yes as an S/O for 20 months, never flew the 777 and went on a base as soon as possible. (guess I should update my pprune profile

My decision to join CX was made at a relatively young age, before I realised the importance of lifestlye, before marriage and before kids. It was NOT based on finances! I thought it would be exciting to live and work in H.K. and the first few years were fun, but another 20 years of crossing the Pacific 2-3 times a month is not that stimulating.

The only way to make CX financially worthwhile over AC is to live in H.K. and take advantage of the housing allowance by buying a flat. That's why I made the reference to DB, it wasn't a statement of my lifestyle, but an observation of how those who claim great wealth from CX, live their lives in H.K.

If you enjoy it, than all the power to ya! However, the thread was a question of comparing CX & AC and there is a lot more to a company than the basic salary. I didn't even touch on staff travel!

Most of all, as meaw said, check your facts before rambling on!

[Dockjock]

So you don't get a housing allowance unless you live in HK? Well that seems obvious of course. But how do the AC and CX pay scales stack up in terms of non-expat conditions ie. N.A. based? Compare only longhaul widebody please as obviously domestic/transborder narrowbodies at AC would pay less.

[tamalai]

look here , it's bad enough having to work for Cathay and putting up with the Canadians we have at CX, but work for AC ? populated by Canadians, you must be 'avin a friggin' larf, that would seriously drive any normal human being mad or at least into serious depression..............................What is it with Canadians, your just upset 'cause no one takes any notice of your big F'off country whilst Everybody pays attention to the big f'off country next door ????
Lets face it the payscales quoted on this thread for Air Canada wouldn't even cover a reasonable bar bill in Hong Kong, 'tis no wonder Mr.9 years at CX but wish I worked for AC is still in Hong Kong...............you could be a Silly little toy jet Captain on 50% less than you earn as a CX F/O.............. whoopee, and live with all those white trash women instead of having your pick of the cream of Asia.............................

what else, Oh, yes, "I'd rather have a defined benefits pension" all well and good until your wonderful management spend the pension fund on keeping your company afloat and then tell you, "Sorry, your $12,000 a month is only going to be $2000" I'll take a big lump of cash paid every month to a third party in an account in MY name, thank you very much...................

Honestly. it's like trying to educate pork..........................

[smo]

tamalai: With statements like that you are doing a good job of turning anyone off from wanting to join Cx. But I guess that is your goal. With that kind of an attitude I'd hate to find out what you'd be like to deal with in the cockpit.

As far as AC or Cx being bettter or worse to work for I belive it all boils down to your attitude and priorities. I know pilots at both airlines and some are happy some are not. For someone to pack up and bring their family (if they have one) to asia is a huge committment but one that could pay off if, like I said you dive in with the right attitude. As far as AC hiring 600 pilots that is great if it all happens. AC is not out of the woods yet and surely has a rocky road ahead. 77mill dollar loss in the last quarter, and those are the #'s on paper, I'd love to see the real #'s before writing various things off. I don't work for any of these two airlines but looking at all the hardship that me and many of my friends have endured in form of lay-off's, wage cut's, forced moves etc. has has left a sour taste in my mouth as far as Canadian aviation goes. I realize the grass allways looks greener on the other side, but I would most definetly go to Cx if given the opportunity.
All I want is some stability and a decent paycheck, that's all!
I know Goonybird is complaining about crossing the pacific 2 or 3 times a month, well it does not matter where you are or what you do it will become routine sooner or later.

[cpdude]

Goonybird,

The assumptions I made concerning your background were reasonable given the incorrect information you were giving out.

So if you went on a base ASAP why do you complain about not seeing your kids grow up? Did you live at your base? Did you not have 15-18 days off a month? If you can't stand being away then why don't you get an office job? Being away is the nature of our career.

Stimulating? Nothing about airline flying is stimulating to me. I haven't been stimulated with flying since I left the military. But, it is a great job and one that allows me to enjoy life with my family.

Financially speaking, sure you can use the housing allowance to maximize your net worth but just speaking on salary alone...starting salary is twice that of AC and after several years the gap narrows to almost a similar salary if your "B" scale so the lost salary at the start is never made up. Also, with AC you were paying 45-55% taxes on that salary versus 8-12% in HK with family discounts.

Defined Benefit Pension? It could have been gone with the recent CCAA but they scraped through retaining it this time. Would you really like to plan your retirement based on a theoretical pension? It's not secure and could be lost at any time.

Lastly, if you don't enjoy your work/life then change it. Life is too short to be miserable everyday. Make a career change and learn to enjoy that change or make some simple changes within the company and learn to enjoy life.
;)

tamalai,

Why do you have such a problem with Canadians? I'm convinced your a Brit aren't you? Or an Australian/Brit want to be maybe?

The real reason is because Canadians don't take crap and you don't like that. The crap I see SOME Brits dish out is just incredable. They and probably you have a real problem. Anti-social with others? Only have fun with your pip-pip friends? One of those that talks big but can't fly your way out of a wet paper bag when things go for sh**? Yup seen it before. So, are you one of those aces?
:p

[Dockjock]

tamalai,
Thank you for your enlightening input, but for anyone that is not Canadian, contrasting the two companies is pointless as Air Canada does not hire expats.

For those of us that are Canadian however, the comparison is perfectly valid. It is obvious that CX pays quite a bit more, but the cost of living in Canada is significantly less than that of HK, and a job at AC involves quite a bit less lifestyle upset with regards to moving a family etc.
Furthermore, for those of us with spouses that are employed here in Canada, total family income has to be considered. While my wife may be able to find some sort of employment in HK, it is doubtful that her career would be transferrable directly, so that would mean flushing a $150K education pretty much down the drain for her.

But as I said, thanks for your input into an discussion that concerns you in no way whatsoever!

[meaw]

Tamalai,

I wonder how many low-class, un-educated, red-neck racists like you are at CX but if it's more than just you it would make CX a very undesirable place to work in. Next time you flare your A340, just remember the airplane is talking to you directly.......retard.

[BlueEagle]

Tamalai - Take this as your final warning, you have stepped close to the line before but your most recent post on this thread is unacceptable racist rubbish. I'm leaving it here for others to see and respond to but if you post anything like this again you will be banned from the Fragrant Harbour forums, remember, Final Warning. BlueEagle - Moderator.

[Captain Over]

Gooney:

Touch on Staff Travel, please. In detail. (Anyone else care to share Staff Travel griefs - or good - stories???)

A sincere thanks to all the contributors here to-date. Mostly productive info with a scattering of a few chuckles here and there. Thanks, most everyone.

....This thread is far from dead.

:ok:

[Goonybird]

CPdude,
You have some fair enough comments.
However if I were getting 15-18 days off a month I wouldn't be on here complaining about my roster. I just looked at 2005 to date and my best month was 13 days. I've never said the money is better at AC, only the lifestyle. The problem most CX pilots have is that they cannot distinquish between pay and lifestyle, the two are not synonymous.( as a CDN resident I pay the same taxes as someone at AC) By the way, I am working on a change that will take me out of CX in the not too distant future.

With regard to defined benefit pensions I suggest some light reading of the pension laws in Canada. A compnay sponsoring a DB plan cannot simply spend the money within the plan, it's held outside the company. What they can do, and what did happen is a company can take a contribution holiday if the fund is fully funded. (CX has been on a holiday for years for the old "A" scale scheme) AC took a holiday in 2000 while riding the wave of the tech laden stock market. The problem began when the market crashed in combination with the contribution holiday, creating an "underfunded" plan. What Victor Li wanted to do was right off the under funded portion of the plan and move staff to a defined contribution, thus removing the future risk and the obligation of topping up the years they took as holiday. Enough on that dry stuff!!

So lets touch on staff travel...CX staff pay ZED fares for travel on their own airline.. HKG-YVR-HKG aprox. 300-500 CAD on CX depending on class of service. If the info I'm given from friends at AC is correct they pay about one tenth that. Any AC staff care to comment??

tamalai, your post is disgusting!Get some professional help.

[smo]

If tamalai had any balls or believe in what he is stating he'd put his real name to it.

[cpdude]

Goonybird,

The comments you make are also very reasonable. I agree the staff travel at CX is a joke.

The real problem at CX is the job can be so dramatically different depending on fleet, base and position of the crew member. Now I'm sure some AC guy is going to jump in and say that flying long days on the RJ or sitting reserve is not fun but at least at AC as you get more senior you get (A) more money and (B) more opportunity for a better roster. At CX we have some F/O's making more than some Captains and you could be one of the most senior pilots in the company and end up with a horrendous roster. I've seen F/O's rostered 55 hours month after month with Relief F/O's flying 85-90 hours. I just spoke to a Captain that was over 100 hours but then you will find another on the same fleet at only 75 hours. What is with that? So as I said, CX can be great or it can suck depending on the factors I stated above.

[meaw]

Concerning staff travel at AC,

You get unlimited passes on AC for you and your family.No limit, no restriction on destinations. Since last year, all you pay for are the taxes levied by the different airport authorities and governments.

For example if you were to go to the U.S , the pass is free but with the taxes it comes out to about 60$ CAD.

Most places in Europe come out to about 100 $ per person and most places in Asia ,from Canada come out to between 100-150$ per person for the round trip.

You also get unlimited amount of Zed tickets on other airlines for you and your family.

Finally you can designate one "BUDDY" who has 10 passes that they can use without you flying with them, so a friend or girlfriend or whoever you want that is not in your family (I have my sister in law).

Boarding is done by seniority and if you are a pilot you can get the jumpseat.

All in all that pretty much sums it up.

[cpdude]

There is no question that the AC travel perk is much better than the CX one...sometimes I even hazard to call CX's staff travel plan a perk!:ugh:

[meaw]

So what would be the salary for a Canada based CX pilot, say starting and then let,s say after a few years, cargo and pax pay.

[cpdude]

To start your career at CX and immediately be based in NA you would have to be a direct hire Freighter F/O. Canadian bases are scarce and only open when a shortage of pilots occurs and they are targeting Canadians (IE. Vancouver and Toronto bases). Most new hires are offered US bases and therefore paid in US dollars. A freighter F/O new hire US based was about 62K USD and a CDN based F/O was 80K CDN. Add to that 15.5% paid cash or in a Provident fund (RRSP like). These figures are about 2 years old and I did here that recently they got a descent raise.

After 4 years and transferring to the Pax fleet a US based F/O makes about 114K where a CDN F/O makes about 122K. Again add 15.5% to these figures and no raises have been given to the pax fleet in the last few years.

A US based freighter Captain starts at about 120K where a pax Captain US based starts at 182K. A freighter Captain is possible at 3-4 years where a pax Captain will take about 9-10 years.
;)

[stillalbatross]

Interesting that everyone is happily mentioning Command salaries at Cathay without mentioning the 10-20% success rate for command upgrades as opposed to AC (or Qantas or BA etc) who are in the 90% range. With such a low pass rate you would be better using the Cathay F/O payscale for comparison wouldn't you?

[A/T less]

Not sure you will be flying the A32X series if you join Air Canada.
But sure you will be flying the heavy metals if you join the Cathay Pacific. POSTED BY KEVIN HO.


So? What's wrong with A320s? You, obviously have no idea how boring the 13-hour flights are.

[idleopdes]

Very interesting thread... my 32 years at AC have been exceptionally enjoyable. Never worked for CX so can't comment. The things I have appreciated about AC are as follows...

Generally lots of stability, even during CCAA there was never much doubt that things would work out. Lucky never to have been layed off.

I live 30 minutes from YYZ, never enjoyed the thought of commuting, I even hate deadheading!

Same base, YYZ for entire career. Lots of family stability, 3 stable, happy kids, 1 wife :O

Solid, steady career advancement.... 2 years as an oiler, 16 as an f/o, last 14 as the old man. Now 340 Capt flying mainly to HKG of all places. Great place to layover, not sure if I'd want to live there?

Variety of flying has been fantastic.... from layovers in Torbay, Brussels, Barbados, Rome, Quebec City, New York, Honolulu, Thunder Bay, Santiago.. you get the picture. Never got bored because things changed every few years.

Great people here at AC. Even though the CDN merger has caused some problems, individually they are good people to work with.

Although we have some problems living here in the Great White North, like weather and politics... I still have yet to find anything better, especially watching 4 hurricanes steam through Florida last summer.

All and all, I'd do it the same way again given the choice.

Cheers

[WaveShwacker]

Hey guys....great entertainment!

I've done a lot of seaching and have sifted through most of the CX posts, but I still have a few unanswered questions concerning CX lifestyle in the States.

My total time is 3200; 2000 turbo prop w/ 500 PIC in turbo prop type.

1. Does my time seem likely to earn an FO slot? Or, do I need turbine time and does it need to be PIC? (I would have to sacrifice QOL to get Jet PIC at my airline.)

2. How long will it take to get LAX? Is there a housing allowance?

3. What's the typical lifestyle for a LAX based pilot, ie trips, days off in a row, vacation...I gotta surf? According to the latest Surfing Mag, I hear they found some waves in China recently! :p

4. How are the trips? 12-15 hrs long?...how much do you bunk up and sleep through the flight? What do you do when you get to your destination...36 hr layover and then back over the pond, or do you fly all over the pacific in Hong Kong time zone?

Thanx in advance to all the CX drivers!

[sony]

Hey WaveShwacker,

Unfortunately your times are not competitive for DE freighter FO positions, but they are competitive for DE Second Officer positions based in Hong Kong. It would take you at least 4-5 years to get back to the States as a passenger FO.

There is no housing allowance for US based pilots.

Cheers,
and Good luck.