Help around Sydney

[Johnny84]

Hey Guys,

you might remember me from a couple of moths back when i was asking for help for a flight from Gold Coast to Maroochydore, it went really well (thaks to all those who helped :D)

Im in NSW next month, and want to get some flying done with the mistress, well be staying in Port Macquarie, and were going to fly down to Sydney, Bankstown.

My planned flight is pretty much coastal, but i need some advice on getting into bansktown, the only time ive been there is as a passenger on a Bonanza, as ive flown in rural VIC most of my time as a Private Pilot.

Coming from the north, i would like to come over Manly, and the Harbour heads, ive heard you can orbit here at 1500, so maybe do that, my question is:

Do i continue down Victor 1, around the PRD area into Banstown from the South-South-West, ot after my orbits, what the go on getting clearance direct to YSBK straight thru SY CTR? Ive heard that its a pain to fly through, due to constant vectors out of traffics way, and lots of jetwash... or is my mate exaggerating it :p (he does that sometimes)

One other option i considered is going from the orbits, or giving them a skip and heading north, and around under the C LL 2500, via St Ives Showground, down to prospect resovoir where i can track easily into the GAAP zone.

note: ive also heard that you have to be at 1500, or 1000 (depending on the active runway) when you enter the GAAP zone, is this correct.

thanks

Johnny

[VRB03KT CAVOK]

Johnny,

You are right about the clearance from Long Reef -> Manly -> Harbour Bridge at 1500' after your orbits are complete you may (or may not) get a clearance at the SYD Departures controller's descretion to track to Parramatta (remaining North of the River). The Runways in use at Sydney determine what you are able to do. There wouldn't be any dramas in getting a clearance to either St Ives Showground or Hornsby and then then the lane of entry into BK via Prospect.

The best one for the views is probably the Victor 1 option you've suggested and around the Restricted area.

A really helpful one for you would be the SYD Basin Guide available on the CASA website.

BK tower will look after you if you add the 'unfamiliar with aerodrome' line as you call inbound.

Enjoy!

[OZBOX]

Johnny,

VRB has pretty muuch nailed it. Just to add to the response, if RWY 16/34 is active, which is most of the time, then you might not get a clearance, but, if you submit you're flight plan with HBB on it, im sure they will try and accomodate you. At the end of the day it is all pending traffic out of Sydney.

Good Luck!

[OZBOX]

Johnny,

VRB has pretty muuch nailed it. Just to add to the response, if RWY 16/34 is active, which is most of the time, then you might not get a clearance, but, if you submit you're flight plan with HBB on it, im sure they will try and accomodate you. At the end of the day it is all pending traffic out of Sydney.

Good Luck!

[apache]

with regards to coming IN to Bankstown: If you are unfamiliar with the Area, then coming in via Prospect is a LOT easier than trying to find 2RN .

If you DON'T get a clearance to orbit the HBB when inbound from PMQ, then maybe try it when OUTBOUND ?

Been a while since I have been to Bankstown, but is 1224Khz still working for tracking to Prospect ? I heard someone trying to find prospect in the dark the other night. It used to be the old 2WS radio mast that one could tune up and "home in on" .

All in All, enjoy the flight. Sydney is a BEAUTYIFUL city to see by air!

[Johnny84]

thanks guys, i found that BK basin guide on the CASA website, and it really helped with some questions about getting into bankstown.

So, all in all, im assuming to better not waste time trying to get vectors through the Class C airspace, perhaps over Sydney, approaching from the runway 7/25 area is 16 and 34 are in use?

Also, the suggestion about coming out of sydney and doing the harbour bridge, how accomdating would Syndye DEP/APP be if i tried to depart bankstown straight into the C LL SFC, and then join Victor one, heading nothbound to the harbour. (this is a big part, because my wife keeps telling me its pointless to fly to sydney and not go over the harbour!) do a few orbits and tehn leave northbound back tp PMQ.

Anything to save time going around the PRD south of Sydney would be great, but i think ill stick to doing the St Ives/Hornsby, unless i hear a better suggestion.

thanks :)

Johnny

[ConwayB]

G'day Johnny,

I trained at BK many (many) years ago, but I'm sure the procedures haven't changed too much.

As far as what altitude you need to be at when coming in, there's logic to its madness.

The BK GAAP has Class C airspace to the East and South and its normal runways are East/West (11/29)... so if you are arriving at BK, you will need to be aware of other traffic in the circuit or departing to the North or West.

To help separate traffic and maintain 500' separation, when the duty r/w is 29, departing aircraft will leave the zone at 1000' to the west and north whilst approaching aircraft, who have to make it to the eastern end of the zone to join base/finals, will stay at 1500'.
RULE 1: If on R/W29, take off and maintain 1000 till you leave the zone. Approaching to land, enter the zone and transit at 1500' until you are on base / finals.


Obviously, the opposite applies when the duty R/W is 11. Coming in from the North or West, from Class G to the GAAP, you will arrive on a base/finals point quite quickly... therefore be at 1000' (circuit altitude) which will get you down nice and quickly. Departing aircraft (that have taken off and turned crosswind and downwind) must climb to 1500 so they can overfly the arriving aircraft who are manoeuvring to land and who should be at 1000'.
RULE 2: If on R/W 11, take off and climb to 1500 on upwind, crosswind and downwind in the circuit until you leave the GAAP. Approaching to land from the North or West/SW, be at 1000' until you are on base/finals and then make a normal approach to land.

Clear as mud?

As one of the other guys said, the BK VTC guide is a good visual guide for BK which is one of the busiest airfields in the world with lots of pretty pictures.

ERSA outlines the procedures but in a written format.

Hope this hasn't confused you too much.

Also, here's a suggestion. Why not do Victor 1 anyway? I've flown around Sydney a number of times... but being in a Chinook, they don't appreciate Heavy wake turbulence in the GAAP, so I haven't flown into BK for a few years. Victor 1 past the heads and the beaches down to Royal National Park and then across the coast to approach BK from the S/W via 2RN is a nice flight. You may like to see:

North/South head where an anti submarine net was strung to keep out submarines but which didn't stop 3 midget subs attacking during WW2. Also the gun emplacements on North and South head.

Bondi Beach. World famous.

Botany Bay, formerly known as Stingray Bay but renamed by Joseph Banks because of all the unusual flora discovered there (and the original recommended site for a settlement)

Kurnell, where Cook and his party first stepped ashore in Australia.

Royal National Park, the second oldest national park in the world after Yosemite (or is it Yellowstone? Can't remember)

During the Olympics, I would take some of our soldiers on aerial tours of the city and give them a bit of its history. Always a lot of fun... and Victor 1 at 200' (military low level) flying under the lighties always raised a smile.

Hope you have a good and safe flight.

Cheers
Conway

CB

[Kickatinalong]

Johnny 84,
Go to (BBG) Brooklyn Bridge @ 2000 take up a heading of 210° you should see a strobe about 5 miles in front of you , if you don't 'cause sometimes it's stuffed stay on that heading and look for a for an electricity sub station , all the high tension wires are heading for it, stay to the EAST of it by about 1 mile and start looking for (PSP) Prospect, The reporting point IS the Quarry on the eastern edge of the dam. Be there @ 1500'. Depending on the r/w in use take up a heading of 126° & stay @ 1500' and the R/W will be 29R, so join D/W and call again early D/W @ 1500 and after they reply to you then descend to 1000' and turn Base at the 2nd Trotting Track ....DON'T overshoot the centre line of the R/W you have been given, If the R/W in use is 11L then take up a heading of 155° and head to the west of Warwick Farm by 1 mile , when abeam the field and over the railway line @ Cabramatta @ 1000' call and tell "ABC 3 miles" and do what they tell you. Enjoy Bankstown I'll send you an email with some other stuff in it.

[Biggles_in_Oz]

2RN can be really interesting to find in haze or pollution. I tune 702 on the NDB and its' a great help, but keep in mind (and your eyes mostly outside) that there may be others converging to the 2RN or Prospect reporting points.

apache
1224 kHz is now 2RPH and is located near the Prospect Resv reporting point.
(My NDB won't go above 999 !)

[Atlas Shrugged]

(My NDB won't go above 999 !) In that case, a trick you can use is dial up Camden NDB (281) in at BBG. Keep the needle on the nose and it will lead you straight to PSP!

[Daniel Beurich]

Ive flown as a passenger to Sydney once, and it looks really good from the air. It was in a Beech Duchess, and we used Victor one, and arrived from the South, it was a really nice senic route.

Good Luck

Daniel

[Johnny84]

Wow, thanks for all the info. Conway, i might take Victor one outbound, but considering im coming from the North, popping under the Class C airspace and heading for Prospect like the other guys said will be easier for my first arrival :) Look forward to seeing you 300 feet below me on Victor 1 as well! :D

I've just got the VTC, and it looks pretty helpful. I also found a little moving map display thingo on the airservices website, called 'Flying Around' which displays different airspaces and approach points for all major cities, and that has also calirfied some things up :).

Just one more question: what are the current landing fees, and any over night parking fees (if any) at BK. Also where are the best aprking spots (i.e. are all the aprons packed full, and will i need to park the 172 on the grass somewhere, or is there a section with tie down ropes and cables for visitors there somewhere?) I shall enjoy my flight (hopefully)

John

[Biggles_in_Oz]

Parking at YSBK is $9.08 per Tonne MTOW pro rata per day (includes GST) with a $20 minimum bill which will be sent to the registered aircraft owner. There are no overnight fees.
There is also an Airservices tower fee (per full stop) of $8.67/tonne which also gets sent to the owner.

Some of the aprons are used for freight ops, some reserved for flight schools and some for RPT.
With all the hikes in parking fees there is no problem nowadays to find a parking spot on the grass areas. (most of which have metal-cable tiedowns)

[turbantime]

2RN can be really interesting to find in haze or pollution. I tune 702 on the NDB and its' a great help

It's actually 576 on the ADF and the designator is TWRN not 2RN.

[Ultralights]

i have been caught out still calling it 2FC!


If your entering via the lane southbound, once past BBG, i find it easier to locate the Castle hill shopping center, and stay approx 3 miles west of that, puts you pretty much on track. sometimes on a hazy afternoon, looking into the sun and haze can make it difficult to find the substation, the substation is the eastern boundry of Richmond millitary airspace


another thing, whats the usual heights over PSP when entering YSBK? i usully overfly at 2000 to keep clear of traffic into BK, yet often find myself having to take action to avoid an inbound to BK at 2000 over PSP!


out of curiosity....
when overflying PSP to the lane northbound what would your procedure be??? eg, departing from Camden of Hoxton?

[Biggles_in_Oz]

turbantime:
My mistake.. 2RN does indeed broadcast on 576 kHz, and 2BL on 702 kHz, but they're co-located (well, to within 0.1nm (http://www.airservices.gov.au/publications/current/ersa/GUID_ersa-fac-2-12_17-Mar-2005.pdf)
I guess I like the programs on 2BL more than the programs on 2RN :D
I too knew TWRN as 2FC, and I say "... two RN ..." when I report inbound to Bk there.

Ultralights:
I've been occasionally vectored northeastish to Prospect by ATC when on the WATLE STAR, so you might be seeing descending CTA traffic, or (more likely), a student coming in from the training area and forgetting that whilst the CTA LL at Prospect is 2500' the approach into Bk from there wants you at 1500' or 1000' very shortly afterwards.

[VRB03KT CAVOK]

Ultralights:

For the Lane of Entry Northbound from Camden or Hoxton Park you are best off avoiding Prospect and tracking direct to Parramatta at 2000' instead. You'll be OCTA, (just) outside the Bankstown zone and avoiding any inbound/Southbound traffic.

[Obiwan]

The Sydney Basin guide is available for download here - http://www.casa.gov.au/pilots/pilotgde.htm (see you've already found it)

As well as YSBK proceedures did you find the notes on Sydney Harbour scenics (page 70)? It has all the calls you need to make which is handy for interstaters.

As they say, submit flight details to minimise delays. I've done it a few times with friends and had no problems.

[Matt-YSBK]

Here is the sure fire way to find Prospect from Brookland Bridge.

Track to Calga NDB on the ADF. When you have station passage look out the nose and you will see two bridges the one on the left is the railway bridge the road bridge is the one on the right and that’s the one you aim for. When you are overhead dial up Camden NDB if you keep the ADF point out the front you will be right on track for Prospect and it will appear in the windshield soon. On the way you may see the strobes but don’t count on it. If you do see the rifle range and the power sub station and you are between you are on the right track.