PIC in the right hand seat...

[flopter]

Sorry if this has been asked before, ( I was redirected to this forum)

However, does anyone in Australia know our rules (or can point me to CASA regs) ..about those rules, regardling the legality of a Pilot in Command using either the left or right seat to fly any aircraft.

Typically Cessna/Piper.

Are we compeled to use the left hand seat by law?

Also, can a PPL fly the plane legally from the right hand seat with a student pilot sitting in the left seat and not actively flying?

Thanks in advance guys'n gals.

-flopter

[zepthiir]

well as far as left or right there is no law saying that the PIC has to sit in the left hand seat. Think Instructors who are the PIC's in an instructional flight even though they are in the right hand seat and rarely actually manipulating the controls.

They are still PIC as they are responsible for authorising the flight and for ensuring the safety of the flight and occupants.

In regards to a PPL holder sitting in the right seat and letting a student fly the plane that is definitely a big no no.

If you dont hold an instructor rating then you cannot instruct simple as that. If you are a PPL holder then the only reason the person next to you should be flying is because they hold a PPL or better as well (or maybe a GFPT for a training area flight).

You should also remember that training manouvers cannot be carried out whilst carrying passengers so as much fun as stalls, steep turns and PFL's are if you have someone else in the plane with you dont do it unless you are an instructor and they are a student or vice versa.


Hope that helps,
Zepth

[Brent_PPL]

As far as I know it, only a Commercial Pilot in OZ can sit in the right hand seat and only on a commercial operation where there is an "operational requirement" to do so. Eg, DAYSAR1 shark spotting... no point sitting in the left seat when the sharks are on the right side when flying down the beach ...

Sitting on the left is for a good reason... it's where the instruments are for one and when you overtake another aircraft you do it to the right, so that the pilot can see it out his left window and when you do a go-around, you go to the right so you can see the aircraft below on your left.

Sitting in the right seat is like these clowns you see in OZ driving around in their Left Hand Drive Mustangs imported from the US!

[swh]

Nothing in the CAR or CAO.

The legal document is the approved flight manual for the aircraft in question, generally they will specify one pilot is required however only a few will specify the seat to be occupied.

Some mid sized aircraft (C550, B1900, SA227) were modified for Australian operations so they could be flown single pilot have all necessary controls within the reach of the PIC.

What is legal and what is good airmanship is not always the same.

:ok:

[*Lancer*]

There are no legal requirements outside of the A/C Ops Manual.

Technically the PIC doesn't have to be in a control seat at all. (someone must be of course, and they have to be appropriately endorsed)

[downwind]

flopter,

think about the scenario, when a training captain is doing command training for a trainee captain (F/O) in the right hand seat, he logs command whilst the othe guy is logging ICUS or F/O time.

[FO Cokebottle]

Obviously common sense is not that common
(exasperated sigh.........)

[flopter]

Originally posted by FO Cokebottle
Obviously common sense is not that common
(exasperated sigh.........) er, excuse me? :rolleyes:

whatever.

Thankyou to the real Pro's of this website for your collective input to my quiries in this regard. :ok:

I couldn't find anything in the current regs and I don't remember being told anything about this from when I got my license in '82.

I think it is clear that the main requirement is safety and airmanship based on the particular Aircrafts Flight Manual.

and Perhaps there's a little requirement on being ambidexturous too! :E

Personally, I like the RHS when in the circuit, especially for high wing AC.. quite simply, the view is better during the left hand turns imo.

Cheers

-flopter.

[FO Cokebottle]

flopter.....

The answer is at your nearest flying school.

When you ask, don't forget to mention that the aircraft is "certified for single pilot" operations. Got something to do with all the required flight instruments being in one place - THE LEFT!!

"Also, can a PPL fly the plane legally from the right hand seat with a student pilot sitting in the left seat and not actively flying?"

Again....
Common sense is not that common

[flopter]

Originally posted by FO Cokebottle
flopter.....

The answer is at your nearest flying school.

When you ask, don't forget to mention that the aircraft is "certified for single pilot" operations. Got something to do with all the required flight instruments being in one place - THE LEFT!!

"Also, can a PPL fly the plane legally from the right hand seat with a student pilot sitting in the left seat and not actively flying?"

Again....
Common sense is not that common.


My good fellow who has done so much in his time, may I remind you that If there wasn't contention and ambiguity about this question at all levels... I wouldn't have asked it.

Even CASA don't clearly qualify the criteria I have outlined.

However, I shall forever be in your debt for your response as it is clear you know it all. :ok:

Everyone in this thread should be eternally thankfull to You (Your highness)....... due to your input. lol :E

I'm not sure how many Pro's in Aviation would belittle a conversation about the legality of an air OPs issue (and therefore safety) while acting as a 747 pilot (cargo I hope) ,

but...... Thankyou for trying (I guess) as it seems so important to you..

regards,

flopter.

[FO Cokebottle]

If there wasn't contention and ambiguity

Hey flapter, go fill your your boots on this issue - go and do it!!!

When it goes tits up, as it does when least expected, hopefuly in the seconds prior to the airframe, you and your "non student" friend, girlfriend or boyfriend become part of the "wreckage spread over a wide area" you realise the flawed airmanship in pushing the envelope of contention and ambiguty.

The fall out will be the usual backdrop of the smashed instrument panel on the ABC news with the media squawking about the disarster, your family and family of your "partner" looking to blame someone but you for the tradgedy, the airframe owner and operater being caught and bound in ASTB and law suit (initated by your family) procedings and giving the detractors of GA in Oz further argument to further over regulate an already burdened industry.

If contention and ambiguity are sooooo important to you - Go do it, and lets hope there are only a few startled kangaroos to witness your folly in contention and ambiguity.

PIC Airmanship is not about "submitting" a plan for what will happen but is about "having a plan" for what "might" happen and reducing the risks of having to use it.

FO Cokebottle
(I think I don't need to say it this time)

Ohhh yeah....at the professional end, its all cargo, whether high loaded in cans, bulk or walk on and we do this "within" the framework of the legislation of the State in which the airframe is registered.

[flopter]

Well one thing is for sure Mr Cockbottle, there doesn't appear to be a mental perception test for your line of work... if there was you would be driving buses I suspect.

In your effort to big-note yourself ...You totally missed the point.

[SHortshaft]

Now, now, Girls!! This started out as an interesting thread about a subject that is much misunderstood.

As stated earlier it is the Aircraft Flight Manual, and its attachments, that should be the first point of reference. Generally speaking, it is not about the position of the instruments in relation to the position of the pilot’s seat; it is about the location of the major controls in relation to the pilot's seat. In those aircraft where all the essential controls are not accessible from both seats then the pilot (not Aircraft Commander) will be required to sit in a specific seat. In some aircraft this is on the left in others this is on the right. Some aircraft even go so far as to prohibit the Aircraft Commander from sitting in a specific seat during specific types of flight (e.g. training/examining).

When it is specified which seat the pilot will sit, this seat must be occupied by a pilot with appropriate license coverage to act as pilot, regrettably the latest partner or flying buddy may not qualify.

[Transition Layer]

Once flew a C210 from the RHS, with nothing but a video camera set-up on the LHS. It was for scientific testing, which needed a view of the aircraft's flight instruments from the pilot's side.

Found nothing in the flight manual saying we couldn't do it, and the whole operation was approved by the owner's insurance company. At the time I had some 200hrs in the RHS instructing and 700hrs on the aircraft type which made me a little more comfortable - if I was new to type it would have been a different story.

TL

[Avgas172]

OK another scenario, Joe Bloggs and his mate Charlie Champion are on a pvt flight to Birdsville Races to get s..tfaced and laid (neither of which they are likely to succeed in achieving) Joe has hired the C172SP from Action Aeromotive at Cookamidgera NSW. Joe has 250 hours on his PPL and Charlie (champ that he is) has a lowly 75 hours and a shiny new GFPT pass. Now we know Charlie is allowed to cart family and friends around the training area but never to head east of Cooka lest he be smited by the Sky Gods in their shiny Metro on approach into Cudal. Joe (PIC) elects to occupy the RH seat on departure from Cookamidgera Intl and let Charlie (the champ) fly the departure from Cooka until west of the training area whereupon our hero Joe takes over so as not to collide with the Sky Gods, by now on approach into YPKS.... after departing Parkes airspace Charlie takes over and Joe sets about navigating the way over to YBHI.... legal or no? that is the question. Charlie is a qualified aviator who may get lost but nevertheless has his mate Joe to make sure he don't......
the law may say it's not legal...common sense says how is it likely to cause a drama? :\

[*Lancer*]

Here's another one...

Charlie Champion is out in the training area with his brand new GFPT to log some Instrument Flight time. Under the hood, he'll need an observer in the RHS. What quals does the observer need?

[swh]

*Lancer*,

A GFPT holder does not have a licence or a rating, therefore in order to do IF it must be training, so for a VH aircraft it would need to be a flight instructor.

Only a flight instructor may authorise a student pilot to act as PIC. A flight instructor must not permit a student pilot, in the course of flying an aircraft as pilot in command, to carry out any activity for which a flight crew rating is required.

I think you digging about .CAR 153 (http://scaleplus.law.gov.au/html/pastereg/0/51/0/PR004640.htm) which would not apply to a GFPT holder

:ok:

[*Lancer*]

swh, that is what I'm digging at. The point is, what exactly constitutes a 'competent' pilot?

[swh]

*Lancer*,

Not that difficult, the safety pilot is a co-pilot at minimum, and under CAR 2 a "co-pilot" means a pilot serving in any piloting capacity other than the pilot in command.

CAR 2 "operating crew" means any person who: (a) is on board an aircraft with the consent of the operator of the aircraft; and (b) has duties in relation to the flying or safety of the aircraft.

Under CAR 226 Dual controls (1) During flight, a person may occupy a control seat of an aircraft equipped with fully or partially functioning dual controls only if: (a) the person holds an appropriate pilot licence for the type of aircraft and the class of operations in which the aircraft is flown;

Under CAR 5.78 What does a private pilot (aeroplane) licence authorise a person to do? (1) A private pilot (aeroplane) licence authorises the holder of the licence: (a) to fly an aeroplane as pilot in command, or as co-pilot, while the aeroplane is engaged in a private operation;

Under CAR 5.105 What does a commercial pilot (aeroplane) licence authorise a person to do? (c) to fly an aeroplane as co-pilot while the aeroplane is engaged in any operation

Dual controls - class of operations - for a private ops, min is a PPL, for any other operation, the min is a CPL.
Dual controls - type of aircraft - be endorsed on type.

:ok:

[Avgas172]

So how would that apply if Charlie Champion was a holder of a PPL with an area restriction (RPPL) and a tad slow in completeing his Nav's? :confused:
cheers

[Lasiorhinus]

For the flight to Birdsville, the PIC would have to be the PPL holder. For the GFPT holder to fly, a flying instructor needs to authorise it.

If the POH doesnt specify which seat must be used, then you can use any seat equipped with fully functioning controls. We only sit in the left hand seat by convention, not law.

[*Lancer*]

You don't even need to sit in a seat with controls... although in practice that only happens with more than a 2 pilot operation.

[Lasiorhinus]

Sorry, I wasnt clear.

To be PIC you can technically sit wherever you want. To actually fly the plane, its definitely far easier to sit in a seat where you can reach the controls than to sit somewhere else.