Helicopter Pilot Seats....Crimes against Humanity!

[SASless]

I have been driving these things since 1967....and with the very rare exception have found seats in helicopters to be a damn disgrace if not downright evil in the damage they do to backs and necks.

For Nick and the others that are knowledgeable of such matters....why is it the builders of these things spend millions on design studies, hire high cost engineers, and devote thousands of man hours to designing the most insignificant bit.....but still after all these years cannot build a decent pilot seat?

Bell sure doesn't have a clue....Boeing-Vertol came as close as anyone with the Chinook seat and it was still bad...Sikorsky well...leave said they need to improve. I have never sat in a Puma/Super/MKII/Tiger....so I can not speak to them...the 155 and 365 seats looked a bit uncomfy....the 350 and 355 left a great deal to be desired....

Why as an industry do we accept such shoddy design and the resulting back injuries and bad necks they cause?

Anyone else feel the way I do about Jet Ranger seats? I think the CEO of Bell Helicopters should be sued and forced to trade his fancy swivel leather luxury for an off the self Jet Ranger seat until the engineers come up with something better.

What say you?:mad:

[Blind]

The Puma seats are pretty variable but mostly useless. We have about 10 332L's and some have comfy seats and some are killers. The company seem to have the attitude that to upgrade them would be admitting how bad they are and lead to lawsuits.

One of my collegues on the S76 once tried to sue but no idea how he got on.

[Camp Freddie]

The S76 man failed in his attempt I believe.

I dont actually think the 76 seats are too bad.

but Jetbox seats are terrible, I always get kidney pain after a couple of hours, is that a common problem ?

regards

CF

[jbrereton]

The Puma seats were okay as long as they were adjustable in all their modes.
If the lumbar support failed, which lets face it us old farts need, then the engineers would lock it in one position and you would come out with back ache.
The company I worked for paid for personal lumbar supports for their pilots. Worked a treat. Cheap as well.
The other problem was the arm rests getting broken by pilots standing on them to look into intakes to check run down times. The arm rests made it just about comfy.

[John Eacott]

The Sea King (with or without the rubber boat strapped to your back) was the worst I can ever remember. It took a year after I stopped flying the things before I realised I had a relatively normal back!

The 206 seat is dreadful, but so many of the older ships have had the cushions reupholstered into so many different shapes, that some are actually quite comfortable :cool:

Most Eurocopter offerings still leave a lot to be desired, even the "high back" options only come to the bottom of one's shoulder blades.

The BK117 seat with vertical adjustment is good, even very good, but the standard non adjustable seat is very average in comparison.

Getting away from the basic seat design, is the positioning of the controls: nothing like having a comfortable seat, only to sit twisted sideways to accommodate a collective moving somewhere around your left hip :yuk: IIRC, the 222 and the Chinook are about the only ships around with decently designed collectives :ok:

[Auscan]

I think its like the theory of McDonalds Resturaunt furniture. McDonalds wanted to call themselves a family resturaunt and yet they didnt want people to overstay thier welcome. So they made the deycor and furniture as uncomfortable as possible. In the helicopter world it is probably this way so we dont get too comfy and get complacent or better yet ,fall asleep. I overcome this problem with a seat cushion that was designed for people bound to wheel chairs. Its called a Roho cushion and you can get one at any medical supplies store. They are quite pricey but worth every penny. After all we only get one spine. Cheers.

[Martin1234]

"I always get kidney pain after a couple of hours, is that a common problem ?"

No idea, but have you tried if a simple body belt from a motorcycle store does the trick?

[ambidextrous]

SaSless:
Backache caused by poorly designed seats coupled with ergonomically inefficient flying controls & high internal noise levels leading to hearing loss have been the two worst features of the helicopter industry since Igor first took off! Apart from bad management that is, but I'll leave that for another day.
The S61N was obviously designed to be flown by a 'paraplegic crab' (with apologies to paraplegics!) whilst the B212 is legendary for reducing 2metre pilots to 1.8metres in the space of a few years.
Perhaps in these august pages we should introduce an award for the 'worst seat' & present it to the embarrassed manufacturer at a suitably public event?
Alternatively, perhaps 'Flying Lawyer' could be prevailed upon to act 'pro bono' & bring a class action suit against the manufacturers for damages re: damaged backs/hearing loss. There must be hundreds of potential cases out there, just waiting to be heard!
With fraternal greetings, ambi

PS: the situation won't get any better because the 'beancounters' buying the aircraft are are not the ones having to fly & operate them, if they were, the situation would improve overnight!
PPS: where are you 'Flying Lawyer', there's a lot of potential custom out here!

[What Limits]

I have certainly found that the cunning diagonal seat adjustment and the adjustable pedals on the Explorer gave me the most comfortable position. The lumbar support was good too. As far as others go R22 - not too bad, Gazelle - don't go there, Lynx - pretty good (but the Westland Vibrator gets you in other ways), Bolkow - poor, EC135 - suitable for the boyish bottom only (unlike mine!).

[havoc]

They use the same planning method as Boeing designing the B-52

Boeing designed the aircraft to meet the Air Force needs, bomb load and range. Oh by the way... a crew of six (after thought), no room to stand up in the cockpit, cooling for equipment only, heat limited, seats (functional).

Helicopters designed for the job...oh by the way, (after thought) pilot, where's that thing Igor sat on, that was good for him still works today.

[Buitenzorg]

JetRanger seats qualify as a crime against humanity. LongRanger seats are marginally better, just scandalous I'd say. In contrast, personally I've found the high-back 350/355 seats quite decent (lowered expectations maybe?), I can function in that cockpit for up to 5 hours without back aches.

I think the CEO of Bell Helicopters should be sued and forced to trade his fancy swivel leather luxury for an off the self Jet Ranger seat until the engineers come up with something better.

Passed nem con .

About options for B206 and B212 seats: a company called Oregon Aero make STC'd seats for these (and other) models, upholstered with open-cell foam. People that I've talked with who've used them cannot get enough superlatives in one sentence to describe them, the only potential problem is going to sleep they're so comfy! When I looked into them years ago they ran about US$900 per seat.

Oregon Aero also make seat and combo seat-lower back cushions from the same material, owners of these who use them in 206s tend to guard them like their first-borns...

[Rebound]

Maybe someone should approach BMW or MERC BENZ designers for a little help in this regard.

Then take a patent out on the newly designed seat and flog the thing back to Bell...all will cost a good dollar or 2 but in the long run prolly pay off.

Just a thought.:ok:

[Johe02]

These (http://www.tekseating.co.uk/commercial.html) are the best seats. Maybe someone should ask them?

:8

[Rebound]

I caould use a few of them at home for the tv room...

Looks like the seats thats found in those big passenger busses...now if only they could build one into a jetranger....or build the jetty around the seat:p

[212man]

I read an article that contained the results of an American army medical study into back problems in Bells, a few years ago and it debunked the idea that vibration was a factor. Basically, they rigged a platform on hydraulic jacks, fitted a seat and controls and then had a TV or Video game (can't remember now) for the test subjects to occupy themselves with. One group did the test with the jacks in action to simulate a Huey's vibration and the other group sat with no vibration. The results were the same and it was considered that posture (bent forward and down to the left slightly) and imobility were the dominant factors.

Having said that, I'd rather have a smooth ride than not.

Another thing that greatly affects comfort is the state of the seat cushions; half the time you are sitting on about half an inch of foam rather than about 2 inches, as a result of thousands of hours of compression from backsides great and small. A new cushion can transform the comfort levels.

[206 jock]

Having suffered hideous trouble flying mine over 1.5 to 2 hours, I bought a couple of Backshape cushions from here (http://www.openerg.com)

They're not needed for short journeys, but once in, I can fly all day. They fix in with a velcro strap, so easy to put in and take out.

Worth £25, anyway.

[jbrereton]

So there we have it. Older or retired helicopter pilots can be recognised easily.
They stoop, cannot stand up for long and have f*cked up hearing and talk very loudly. (so my daughter tells me)

Who was said they wanted a career in helicopters?

[NickLappos]

The science of making people happy or comfortable does not exist, in any way.

As a professional pilot, and as project pilot on two Sikorsky helos now in production, I can't say anyone (including all those above who complain about their helo seats) can make a seat that is comfortable for all pilots, world wide.

I have hear about people who would sue over seat comfort, and even heard of one nordic pilot who took disability because he was tortured for so many years in a horrible seat on the helo he had to fly. Poor baby.

I came up with a saying a few years ago, after giving up trying to find pilot consensus on anything:

If you want 23 opinions, ask 20 pilots. All opinions will be different and opposing, and some guys will have two.

I think we are bound to differ, and the only solution is to have seat choices (not adjustability) and let the pilot chose his own.

[Mama Mangrove]

For once, Nick I disagree with you. The number of posts here seems to indicate a consensus that there is not a single really decent helicopter seat. Whilst I accept that it is difficult to design a seat that all will find comfortable, almost every helicopter seat I've come across is a total disgrace and seems to have had no thought whatsoever put into its design. Most project test pilots do not sit on seats regularly for 5 or 6 hours at a time. I've not flown a single helicopter that has a seat that is comfortable for more than an hour or two. Most of the expensive helicopters out in the commercial world are flown in support of offshore oil operations and many of them these days are being flown by pilots who have to endure their seats for 5 or more hours a day.

A $100,000 Mercedes has seats that are beautifully designed and are almost infinitely adjustable, whilst most $1,000,000 plus helicopters have seats that the driver of a $1,000 Trabant would complain about. :\

[2beers]

Well, being 2m tall has its few advantages... No problem with hearing loss since every flight is very quiet with my knees covering my ears. :p

/2beers

[jbrereton]

I have to say, when new, the Puma L/L2 seats were very comfortable. As pilots we had a vested interest in making sure the seats were maintained in such a state and if not doing something about it ie snagging. Many a day I spent discussing with the engineers how to get them back to there original state. More foam done the trick.

Nobody seems to have picked up on personal lumbar supports. Why not! They are a valuable item for any pilot and you can even get one designed to the shape of your back.

Made life bearable when I had one made. All the pilots with back problems had them. But you should get one before it becomes a problem.

[212man]

I tried a lumbar support but found it tended to push me too far forward in the seat. I know plenty of people that swear by them though.

However, that simply reinforces the point about it being a disgrace that they are not comfortable in the first place! Would it be considered acceptable to have to buy your own GPS because the aircraft had a system that was unusable? (I'm talking about large machines here.)

The big difference we have over fixed wing pilots in this regard is that we are totally imobilised in the seat; they can walk around on a long flight. Thankfully the longest I've ever done was 8:55 in one day, but even shorter days can leave you feeling half crippled sometimes.

[rotorboy]

Oregon Aero seats are the best period. The seat they make for the 500 (try sitting in one of these for 8 hours if you think a jet ranger is bad) and the 206 are great. The design that went into them came from a group of physicans... But again the cost a 6-900 a set put people off. I know more and more guys wo are buying there own.

rb

[SASless]

Nick Lappos you scandulous swine! Take yourself down to the hangar floor where you work....set yer wide bodied butt down in one of the seats in the front end of one of those Gulfstreams....then tell me about helicopter seats.

As the man said....10 Million for the aircraft....and a VW Jetta has better seats....heck...my 13 year old Ford pickup truck has a better seat now after 250,000 miles than any helicopter I ever flew.

So...Mr. Lappos....knock it off and get a grasp of reality....you ain't selling them anymore.

Better yet....as a litmus test....take yer best Sikorsky seat and put it into a Gulfstream.....see how long it takes for the pilots to refuse to sit in it! Would you let me send you a Jetranger seat and trade it for your office chair.....do a sit test for a month then tell me how good they are?

Your point about building a seat that will make everyone happy is a nearly impossible chore...but Nick...old buddy...the industry has a very long way to go in this part of the design/build effort.:mad:

[Geoffersincornwall]

Some of you may have spotted that on that famous cartoon that depicts a helicopter pilot struggling with his trusty steed under IF conditions and entitled "HELICOPTER PILOTS ARE DIFFERENT" the pilot's seats had a manufacturer's label on the side - it said

ACME SCREEN DOOR AND WINDOW COMPANY

Says it all

[SASless]

If you could see the close up...the adjustment settings are along the lines of "Too hard" , "Too High", "Too Low".

I have a 3'wide by 4 foot high hand drawn framed copy of that cartoon....done in Thailand by a USAF Flight Engineer who made it as a going away gift for one of his pilots by name of Jerry Crupper. Jerry and his wife were killed by a drunk driver shortly after Jerry retired from the USAF and took a job as an S-76 instructor pilot at American Airlines Training Corporation in West Palm Beach. His daughters gave it to me after Jerry died....at some point I will donate it to either the USAF Museum or the US Army Museum if they will have it. Jerry was a Jolly Green pilot doing combat SAR on Sikorsky H-3 and H-53 aircraft.

[alouette]

My, my you embark on quite a language. Maybe you forget that some employers don't like the fact that pilots feel comfortable at work. From my past and perhaps present experience a few CEO's would rather employ a monkey for flying those things because those can't talk thus cannot complain.

Now reflecting on your seat problem (siding with your problem); all manufactureres of helos should actually get their damn royal behinds on their damn products and hang in the sky for 8 or more hours a day. Then these fine specimen shall go home and play with the wife if the the screwed up backs/spines allow bed sheet acrobatics.

Haven't flown Eurocopters until now - have been a Bell dude - well the divorce is set for May 2. Actually, SASless is right...the seats of a beaten up old European car with almost 150,000 miles on it are a better fit then the 206 series seats. Amen:}

[NickLappos]

Sasless,

Get a grip. You don't think anyone tries to make the seatuncomfortable, do you? For one model, we actually designed the seat to precisely suit a customer pilot board, against the advice of the test pilots. We designed the seat to their exact requirements, and they loved it. Then, one year later, when we produced the seat, the new pilots from the same companies couldn't stand the seat, they rejected it (and the original prototype that their buddies had designed!)

I don't doubt that the seats are uncomfortable for some pilots, I merely think that all pilots are uncomfortable in a seat or two, and some pilots are uncomfortable in all seats, and No pilot is comfortable in all seats.

The only people who believe that stupid manufacturers try to make crappy seats, at a cost of perhaps 2 million dollars total, are dumb pilots. And I don't know a single dumb pilot ;-)

[spinwing]

Anyone remember the old "J" mod Puma seats ......

Designed for "French Army Pilots" who bore no resembelance to human beings .... I was once told it was Quasimodo (probably during a lunch break from his day job at Notre Dame) who provided the dimensions for their manufacture ?????

;) ;) ;) :p

[2beers]

In my previous life as an IT-consultant we had a saying that went along the lines of: "Having fun at work is the same as stealing from your employer". Maybe the pilot seats fill a similar function to keep the levels of happiness down?
Another theory is that it's much better having pilots complaining about seats and by that keeping their focus (whining) away from how the company is managed. :D

/2beers
"Easily distracted by shiny objects"

[soggyboxers]

Sorry Nick, but I have to agree with SASless on this one. The majority of replies on this thread have been pretty negative. I'm quite sure the manufacturers don't try to make seats uncomfortable, but they also don't do nearly enough to try and make them comfortable and with a decent range of adjustments. I have never found a single helicopter with a seat which is comfortable for more than a couple of hours and I live with constant back discomfort from too many years of sitting in some terrible seats. Some of the seats I have met which have looked good and have felt comfortable to start off with have left me practically unable to walk after a few hours. The Sikorsky S76 is one which springs to mind and I can only fly in that with a lumbar support on the seat and wearing a lumbar support belt. For an old dog like me it's probably too late now to ever fly in a helicopter with comfortable seat, the one in my 4 year old VW Golf is far better and with a better range of adjustment than any helicopter seat I've met. :(

[Ascend Charlie]

Our police air wing was the proud owner of the first Bk117 in Australia. Under the regional marketing agreements, our machine came from Japan, rather than Germany.

The seat could move fore and aft, but had no height adjustment - it was too close to the ground, and us long-legged "pirates" (as the Japanese instructor called us) sat on the point of our bums with knees high in the air - very uncomfortable after a while.

We asked if there was a height-adjustable seat, and they said no. All pirates are the same size, according to them.

Subsequently we found a German catalogue for the BK, and in it was an option for a height adjustable seat. Seems that the 95th percentile of Japanese pirates were happy in the low-slung seat, but caucasians and aryans fell well outside the bell curve from Nippon.

They also lied about a nose-mount option for the night sun, but that's another story...

And my back has never recovered from Bell seats in Hueys and 206/407 series. The 76 seat is OK for an hour at a time, but long days are a pain in the @rse, despite woolly seat covers.:ugh:

[John Eacott]

AC,

See my previous re the comfort of the height adjustable BK seat: I've never had a sore back from mine, even after 10 hour day on fire ops :ok: Both my seats are height adjustable, and a Kawasaki option from the factory :D Doesn't the NSW Parks Squirrel have a BK seat for the driver?

Nick,

Put me down as one of the stupids ;) I still get back to the cause & effect issue of the positioning of controls as well as the seat comfort. The best seat in the house is useless if you are twisted sideways to operate the collective, or perched on the points of your @rse because you can't stretch your legs :rolleyes:

[Steve76]

Must be lonely in that trench over there Nick....cause I stand shoulder to shoulder with the SASless rebels over here.

I think the biggest issue is similar to Nissan cars and pilot helmets. Nissan's are a great driving car with solid engines and all round performance but try fixing one. What an abortion. They are a classic example of engineers designing something without chatting to the mechanics who are going to have to disassemble and repair it.
As with flight helmets. Name one that actually does all that a pilot needs. I am not talking anything beyond the bare basics: Protection, noise attentuation, lightness and flexibility for various op's. Gallets are noisy but small, Alpha fit and attenuate fantastically but try longlining with that massive visor cover and Gentex is just antiquated in all the above requirements. Nobody has sat down with the pilots and asked "what do you guys do with these?"

Speaking of sitting down...
I think I must be pretty much in the perfect demographic for pilot size and weight. 5'10, 180lbs wet and I run and workout constantly. I try to take care of my back with exercise and chiro. But it feels like a losing battle. I am working constantly just to offset the hunching that invariably happens while flying. Include the helmet weight to the top end and I have noticed my neck makes popping noises when I roll it from side to side. That's not good is it?

Regarding Helicopters:

Robinsons: all the same. Not bad but you tend to hunch forward.

Bell 206 is an abortion. End of story. We were just complaining about this in the crewhouse last night. Everyone agrees and the 204 and 205 with the fabric contraptions?? ...sheesh.

AS350: Bucket seating to form you into the shape of a banana. Feel the pain...

S76: not as bad as the above because you can adjust the seat height. Needs more lumbar support.

I have started flying around with a roll of foam in the small of my back. I don't know if this is a good thing because I am still sore. Maybe having to be bent back into proper shape involves more pain...

Sign me up for the law suit. Rant over and out.

[C of G]

I have to agree after just over 7 hours in a JetRanger today, I must be getting punished for something I did in my past life, but I have to ask the question................ Is there a seat anywhere, not limited to helicopters, that would be comfortable after any extended period of use? Even those massage chairs in the mall would turn your back to mush after an hour. All of the aforemention reasons lead to the same end. It's not the saets that were poorly designed, it's us that weren't meant for repetitive movements in confined spaces.

[Gomer Pylot]

No, Nick, I don't think you go out of your way to design uncomfortable seats. I don't think you go out of your way at all to design seats, one way or the other, other than to try to make them as light as possible, to maximize the payload you can advertise. I have never, ever, not one time, heard a pilot say anything good about any helicopter seat. Never. And I've been around a lot of helicopter pilots for a long time. You might believe that no two pilots ever have the same opinion, but I beg to differ. Every pilot I've ever talked to has been of the opinion that helicopter seats are terrible.

Trying to defend the indefensible seldom makes you look good.

[Hippolite]

The early Super Puma seats or "Tiger" seats were the worst. They had height adjustment but not enough thigh support.

The result was that you sat on your tailbone and the cushions soon compacted down to the seat pan making life very uncomfortable. In those very early days on the Tiger, we flew double North West Hutton flights out of Aberdeen just squeaking inside the daily flying limit.

After many complaints, Bristow copied the design of the optional Aerospatiale seat which had extended thigh support and arms and even a lumbar support and installed it into the Tigers but alas not before I had moved on to another type.

The final result for me is that 23 years later, I have lower back problems which are very painful and require lots of therapy.

I am glad I don't have to fly anymore since the pleasure I once derived is now counteracted by the discomfort.

Of all the types, I found the S76 to be the best, followed by the good old S61.

Any Lawyers out there!!!

HH:cool:

[Mr Toad]

The only seat I found really useable was the seat with armrests that we fitted to the 61 in Brunei; subsequently had the same seat in Dutch 61's; 5 hours of shifting, 45 sectors etc, no problem. I think they were French and there were some issues about certification; but they were great.

I had to fully recline the Chinook seat in the cruise (could hardly see out); the co-pilot's side had such bad vertical bounce that he would have to pee after only 45 minutes in his seat. The 76 seats seemed to vary according to what day they rolled out of the factory - I had an anguished correspondence with Nick which roused the fury of my Engineering Director even though it was nothing to do with him. In the end on the 76 I found that if I kept my lower back pushed hard into the seat back I didn't get backache.

Mind you I've a concrete back - 5 lumber vertebrae welded together after what I thought was one of my better Jetranger landings. I think this injury helped me to get through the remaining 16,000 hours more comfortably, but I wouldn't necessarily recommend it.

The reason your seats are bloody awful and your cockpits bloody noisy is because you don't pay for the aircraft you fly; your passengers fare very slightly better because the beancounters need your passengers to pay for the helicopter. The pilot's needs are a long way down the list of priorities.

[Aesir]

I just have to comment in defense of the B-212.

Yesterday I did 8:34 hrs in my trusty old 212 and although tired after the days flying I was in no way feeling uncomfortable or sore.

I really like the seats in my company's 212 and I don't think they have any special seats installed.

http://iserit.greennet.gl/waltere/PICT1422_resize.JPG

I have also in the past done long hours in the B-222, that is 4-5 hours sitting in the aircraft with hot-refueling and I also liked the seats in it.

However I agree that the B-206 seats are very bad, I'm going to look into having them re-done in mine.

The S-300 is also very bad. I hate the AS350 bucket seats too.. after 6 hrs sling work I dread thinking of the next day's rerun :oh:

[SASless]

Nick,

In a follow up to my boast that my 13 year old diesel pickup seat being better than any helicopter seat I ever perched on....I decided to validate my statement.

I challenge you to duplicate it in the very best helicopter seat around....you can use a simulater if you wish...but there must be equal exposure to both vibration and endurance.

As a test...I loaded my baggage, Turkey hunting gear...and camp gear into my '92 Ford F-250 four wheel drive pickup....the one with Ton and a Half Springs....thus a rough riding potato wagon...and departed North Carolina on a Thursday morning, and rolled into Washington State on Saturday Afternoon in time for an afternoon hunt. 2800 miles in elapsed time....with a driving time of 44 hours in the seat....one well used by a previous 238,000 miles of driving.

I did not have a sore butt...I did not have a sore back...my legs never went to sleep...I did not have cramps of any kind...I never squirmed around....refuelling stops were every 5-6 hours and usually lasted only 10-15 minutes.

Want to set up a test in the S-92 Sim at West Palm Beach....I will volunteer to be the test subject with you as the monitor.

[Blackhawk9]

Having rebuildt many pilot seats over the years i've found if the pilot is comforable the U/S rate of the a/c drops!
The best set up i've seen is throw away the factory foam after it shrinks and looses its sponge, replace with 2 pieces of foam 3/4 thickness highdensity foam 1/4 softer foam for comfort (all approved fire proof a/c material) then thick lambswool cover over the top, the back done the same with a pump up lumber support inserted under the soft foam . not perfect but kept the pilots happy for awhile. The 332 pilot seat is pretty good if the lumbersupport is rebuilt and strenthened and the leg support and lumbersupport is rigged properly and the lambswool is nice and thick, and the Blackhawk seat would be good if it had a pump up lumber support as the seat fan under the pilots bum helps alot. But none of them ar as comfortable as most cars i've been in!

[Mr Toad]

I agree with blackhawk about comfort/serviceability; helicopters also suffer from vibration just like us, it breaks them in the end. So to improve the cushion is an okay move; however it still doesn't doesn't fix the basic geometry of the seat which in the case of the 76 is unfixable due to lack of space fore and aft.

If you use a lumbar support you'll introduce a curve into your lower spine at the point where it's bearing the load of the vertical bouncing forces; the spine is designed to absorb moderate vertical loads. It does less well when it's curved and you end up wearing the inner surfaces of the joint and reducing the clearance between L!,2, 3 and 4; in short it gets progressively more painful as you get older.

After we got modified Puma seats on the 61 with adjustable leg supports and armrests I stopped using a backrest. By using the armrests I rested my back from vertical bounce in the cruise and by sitting with my bum hard up against the seatback I ensured my back was as near vertical as possible. Backache was reduced to manageable thereafter. BUT you must take care of the back by exercising to keep it flexible; can you put your fingers flat on the floor without bending your knees? Try it, but remember in this industry to keep your back to the wall...

One other point; project engineers/pilots are very knowledgeable people to whom I defer on all technical matters. But only the pilot and the line engineer/mechanic know what it's like to live with an aircraft type for years and years and thousands and thousands of hours without relief or respite. That's what gives us a different perspective on NVH - noise, vibration and harshness. You can make the aircraft stronger to protect it but not the human body.

[Thridle Op Des]

Having seen both sides for the fence I have to agree with the general consensus on the suitability of helicopter seats.
The worst seat I have yet experienced was the one on the Bell 47, but I guess lower tech than a shelf with a flat foam cushion one is hard to achieve. I think though that this was indicative of how designers regarded crew comfort. The constraints of weight are particularly difficult for designers to resolve, but there have been plenty of great suggestions on this thread which do not add excessive weight.
As some one said previously, the original 'Tiger' seat was particularly dreadful and I seem to recollect that it was akin to perching on the edge of a shelf. The later seat was a real improvement, but the ability for it to recline was a particular waste of time simply beacuse there was not enough space in the flightdeck to actually do this. The arm rests were probably the best point together with the longer leg support and the gel seat insert (as long as the gingerbeers hadn't substituted a block of foam when the gel sac leaked)
The stretched red nylon shopping bag on the Bell 212 should not have been allowed under any circumstances.
Now I am experiencing the difference with an Airbus 330/340 and while the improvement is huge, there are still difficulties in creating a truly comfortable seat, even now we are actively trying to develop a more comfortable cushion, though the scope for adjustment is so much more than that available to a helicopter designer and everything is made so much more solidly.

I would have to agree with Nick in only one minor point - it is difficult to create a seating arrangement which satisfies all pilots, however the notion that what we have is adequate is seriously optimistic.

[John Eacott]

TOD,

however the notion that what we have is adequate is seriously optimistic

That will be treasured as the quote of the year :D :ok:

[MightyGem]

"HELICOPTER PILOTS ARE DIFFERENT"
You mean this one...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/MightyGem/Pilot4.jpg

[krobar]

After sitting through a bunch of hours on the Jetti, I wished I was back in a R22. I resorted to smuggling pillows out of my hotel room, which a placed onder my thighs, just to take some pressure off my butt. The constant leaning forward didn't help much, but after removing the back cushion, was a bit better.
After reading this thread, I don't feel like I'm alone out there anymore.

[Dolfin]

In my experience, which covers an embarrassing number of hours, I find that there are good seats, and there are bad seats.

Unfortunately, the good seats are terrible.

[Sabre Zero 1]

The seats in the Gazelle, although far better than the 206, have a steel top to them which protrudes further out than the seat foam does and sticks right in to your spine between the shoulders.

I can only assume that before being compressed through years of use, the foam would've been alot thicker!

At least the Gazelle seats are adjustable fore and aft, which isn't bad for an old type, not many others do!

[SASless]

Hey Nick ol' Buddy.....

Care to respond to some of the criticisms provided here....now that you are out of the helicopter business and into luxury Biz-jets...maybe you can find some innovative engineers that can come up with quality retro-fits mods for all these helicopters out there.

It would appear to be a lucrative market.....not one single helicopter has been bragged upon for its seats....unless I really mis-read the posts.:E

[SASless]

I do not know who revived this Thread but a lot has happened since 2005 when my last post was made.

Nick Lappos has moved to new and more senior positions in the Aerospace/Aviation Industry. He continues to an advocate for innovations in helicopter design and related technology and infrastructure.

He remains the luckiest guy I know....and is living proof of the benefit that can accrue from attending the right Church on the right Sunday.

I am willing to bet Helicopter Seats are still pitiful and far less comfortable than any decent Automobile Seat to be found in the average passenger vehicle on the market.

Sadly, I blame Nick's failure to do better in that regard to be his major failure in Life but considering he cannot remember to tie his shoes he has gone far since his days as a Cobra Pilot in the US Army.

[Lonewolf_50]

I will offer that the seat design, coupled with how the harness was attached to the seat/seat mount assembly, is why a colleague of mine died in a Seahawk in 1989. Dolfin summed it up best.
I find that there are good seats, and there are bad seats. Unfortunately, the good seats are terrible. The SH-2F was OK, the SH-60B seat bloody uncomfortable. I walk with pain each day that I get out of bed, and I am not yet sixty. I can mitigate this with some of the exercises the nice physical therapists offer, but the root cause isn't something they can fix.

[Fareastdriver]

It doesn't matter how good you make a seat, if the pilot doesn't strap in correctly he is wasting his time.

I was brought up with ejection seats. With those it is IMPERATIVE that you push your backside right into the corner and tighten the lap straps. The same with helicopter seats; you see too many people sit in, drape the shoulder straps over them and then, as an afterthought, attach the seat straps.

My early operational life was attached to a Mk 3 Martin Baker seat which, if fired, would depart the end of an eight foot, three cartridge, tube at eighty feet/second with a 175 lbs. pilot attached. I weighed about 145 lbs. with kit so I was going out considerably faster so I welded myself to the seat. Even on extended refuelled flights of ten hours or more there was no discomfort at all.

I did the same when I transferred to helicopters; tighten the lapstraps and allow the shoulders to move with the inertial. Should you leave the lapstraps loose then inevitable movement of you backside will ease it forward and then you backbone becomes the wrong shape. That's when it gets sore and will cause long term damage.

Five years on stovies, forty three on helicopters; Not a twinge.

[Flying Bull]

Well Fareastdriver,

it´s not that easy....
Feel very comfy in a BK117 - but get backpain in a BK117D2...
Nice helicopter with lots off efforts done in making pilots life easier - but a drawback in seatdesign.
I´m fairly tall - and the seats seems designed for smaler pilots....
and they are fairly low in comparison to the older BK 117.
So whenever I´m on the Co-Pilot side, not actually flying, I have to remove my feet from the pedals.
Sit down on the floor and move your feet closer to you - what will happen?
You´ll bend your back!
Hope Airbus gets this sorted out soon!

[Lonewolf_50]

@Fareastdriver: I generally agree with "strap in properly" but that's only part of the issue. The rest is shape and ergonomics.

[icedriver]

I use a 450x450x100 ROHO seat with dual chambers which is a life saver. I just drop a bit of air out of whichever side I'm long lining out of and it makes the days a lot easier. It also takes a fair bit of the vibe out.

[ShyTorque]

The main part of my military career was on the Puma HC1, which at the time had a seat which could at best be described as an afterthought. The seat back was too short, so that the shoulder harness attachment point was below the height of your shoulders. Tightening the shoulder straps caused your spine to stoop. Also, the thin seat cushion had collapsed on most aircraft. So for those below a certain sitting height, the only way to see the landing point was to look under the instrument panel, rather than over it! I spent much if my early flights sitting on a map pack! Thankfully, the aircraft only had an endurance of about an hour and a half! The later seat, which had a base consisting of the fibreglass personal survival pack, was a big improvement. A later mod was to fit a raised hoop to the back if the seat to bring the shoulder harness attachment point up to somewhere near shoulder level. Needless to say, my spine is rather messed up.

[megan]

Even the airline guys complain about their seats. I'm fortunate in that I've never had a problem with seats in the types flown, cars a different story. Only gripe I've ever had was the lack of air, as in ventilation, in the 76. Whoever it was that decided to place that little half inch gasper pointed directly to the top of the head was having an off day. Bald now, so perhaps it would work.

[902Jon]

Even in relatively modern aircraft, the pilot, and therefore the seat, are an afterthought. The AW139 that I've been flying for the last 3+ years has a variety of different seats ranging from appalling in the short nose aircraft to just about ok in some of the newer machines. However on our most recent aircraft, the seats with armrests (which do help) are not fitted, but instead a very short leg, lightweight seat which gives no support to the thighs.
Another of the problems is that the cushions end up compressed so badly after being flown by some of my more "fuller sized" colleagues and not being renewed at appropriate intervals. Management has talked about replacing them for as long as I have been in the company, but (surprisingly), nothing has yet happened.
The most recent contribution to poor seating posture has been the introduction of lifejackets with a built in air supply. The bottles are not light, and even after short flights, pilots are complaining of back ache because of the lack of arm support which helps keep the spine straight.

As usual, its the pilots, who can sit in these seats for up to 7 or 8 hours in a day, get the cheapest option available.

[Non-PC Plod]

SHYTORQUE,

Sounds like the same guy designed the Gazelle armoured seat - I reckon thats the main reason why I cant put my socks on in the morning now!

[SASless]

Management has talked about replacing them for as long as I have been in the company, but (surprisingly), nothing has yet happened.


Perhaps those rotund Pilots are Senior to you!:E

[Basher577]

You maybe happy to note Bell still continue with their range of torture devices. Nice new shiny Bell 429 that I absolutely love flying, but anything over an hour and you are their latest gimp and you are in a world of pain. Pax are comfy though which is nice.:ugh:

[ShyTorque]

SHYTORQUE,

Sounds like the same guy designed the Gazelle armoured seat - I reckon thats the main reason why I cant put my socks on in the morning now!

Thankfully, the armoured seat for the Puma was quite comfortable - for me at least, but the larger framed guys had problems in that too.

I once visited a chiropractor who recognised me as a Gazelle pilot because of my "stoop". At that time, I was flying the Gazelle. :ouch:

[Hughes500]

Try putting a heating element in the seat, put it on and it gets rid of the cramping one gets by sitting in a " comfy seat ":ok:

[goffered again]

I can't say I ever had a problem with the seats in the AW101-640 series, mind you, I can't speak for the chauffer and his co-driver

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

Scout, Gazelle (normal and armoured) and Bell 212 were without doubt the worst seats I encountered.

I recall an American pilot (an old friend of ours with a Hungarian name Sasless) telling me about a known condition suffered during and after Vietnam called "Bell Back" which was a result of extended operations in the slightly nose down attitude adopted by Bell pilots as a result of fatigue. The only way to ameliorate it was to wear a back brace similar to those worn by weightifters or riggers.

NEO

[Ascend Charlie]

The Huey Back, a combination of leaning left to reach to collective, being bent over a little, but having to tilt the head up to see over the panel, while wearing a helmet, and copping that 1:1 bounce for 2500 hours.

I did manage to scrounge a wedge-shaped kidney pad from a Martin-Baker Departure Lounge, and with a velcro strap to let me move it up and down the seat back, the rest of my Bell career in 206, 407, 212 and 412 were almost acceptable.

[as350nut]

Add my 2 cents worth
AS350 not great but serviceable, retrofit good quality seat inserts
R44 shocking really with no adjustment, just find someone who can put in high density foam
R22 as above;well don't worry - don't won't fly them anymore
EC120 close to good just retrofit good foam and higher seat sides and :)
MD500 I put in the light weight mesh/military style and they were not too bad
but no adjustment, I think it is even worse than the R22 if you don't like the pedal position or are a bit taller its not much fun

[albatross]

An early model 206A had the most uncomfortable seats ever!
205-212 ugh.
Company refusal to refurbish seats.
Early Astars..with the short seat backs.with no shoulder harness..yeah that would protect you during a crash..NOT!
76s..not much better.
S-92 and EC225...don't even get me started.
Now on LTD due neck/back problems ..but hardly unexpected after 17000 plus.
Other factors...helmet (had to give up the helmet around 12000 hrs) ...life jacket with 5kg of stuff in it...being tall and having the shoulder harness pulling down on your shoulders, the survival suit fit around your neck. I could go on and on.

Basically the manufactures and companies never seemed to get the point that some folks would be sitting in these seats for years.

[retoocs]

The really sad part is some of these seats cost over $20,000.

[megan]

USN report on back pain among the rotary community.

http://www.public.navy.mil/NAVSAFECEN/Documents/aviation/aeromedical/Articles_Info/BackPainRotary.doc

[GipsyMagpie]

...the armoured seat for the Puma was quite comfortable...

Those words do not deserve to be in the same sentence. Recent iteration is a medieval torture device. Full body weight on last 2 inch of your rear end.

Puma seat in combination with a parachute is the most spectacular source of pain and discomfort.