Runway Length required for Cessna Piper Lighties?

[Angle of Attack]

G'day All,

Have a friend with a property in SE Qld. Hes thinking of making an airstrip on his farm. Im aware of the ALA req's which arent a problem, its almost flat, certainly less than 2% slope with no obstacles either end and the elevation would be around 800ft. For a lightie particularly Cessna 182 or the like I told him 400m would be heaps, by memory. If he wanted to fly a lesser performance machine like C172, or Warrior and the like what length would he require to bulldoze? He reckons it would be a fairly hard but not a gravel surface, probably similar to short dry grass. I know I could probably research this on the net, but to be honest Im just asking you guys and girls with current experience on types, and what would be the minimum length at max weight you would be comfortable with, also Im just too lazy to spend hours trying to find out! Thanks in advance!

Edited for spelling!

[DirectAnywhere]

:confused: :hmm: Mate I'd strongly suggest you or your friend get a copy of the performance manual for the aircraft type he wants to fly in there and look at the figures for a 40 degree day, nil wind at MTOW witha bit of slope - maybe even apply the declared density chart.

If he's going to go to all the effort of bulldozing a bit of dirt, surely looking up a book is a small price to pay to make sure he gets it right?!?!? You could have done it in less time than it took you to make your post!!

[swh]

Angle of Attack,

They might consider contacting the RFDS if they would like the strip to be used in case of an emergency or flood the farm.

Extract from the RFDS Queensland Section Outstation User Guide - Airstrip Construction (http://www.flyingdoctorqueensland.net/whoweare/manual.doc)

"The main requirement for RFDS aircraft are a minimum of 1000 metres in length at sea level, plus an extra 90 metre increase in length for each 1000 feet the aerodrome is above sea level. To facilitate our aircraft landing both day and night the width must be a minimum of 90 metres clear of trees, stumps, saplings, ant hills or any other obstacles.

The centre 15 metres must be a firm smooth surface which a fully laden 3 tonne truck can be driven over at a speed not less than 80 kph without undue discomfort to the occupant, and will not impede the take off or landing of aircraft.

A further 15 metres of cleared area each side of the centre strip is required which would ensure minimal damage to an aeroplane which may run off the runway during take off or landing. The remaining outside 22.5 metres of each side should be free of tree stumps, large rocks or stones, fencing, wire and any other obstacles above ground but may include ditches or drains below ground level."

:ok:

[flyby_kiwi]

Depending on all the variables of course, you shouldnt have any hassle getting out with 400meters, for a larger twin you would prob. need more like 700, or 800ish if you want to be able to carry anything out in it.

I imagine you could cut this 400m down a fair bit if you were going to fly a C185 or maybe even a C172 with a STOL kit.

[Sunfish]

400 is definitely way to short.

[Deaf]

Apart from the length the other issue is the approach/departure.

A strip I used to use quite a bit was a nice long well drained gravel strip, however the people who put it in were not pilots and didn't think about a large river redgum 200 yds from the threshold.

[Ultralights]

i would go for 800 Mtrs, The Oaks in Sydney is 800 Mtrs, i can get the archer in and out of there on a summers day with fuel. anything less would require weight calculations and a lot of consideration.

not to mention a Partnavia is a regular visitor to The oaks.

800 is good as it allows for errors such as an unexpected float during the flare, or a bounce. etc.

or, put in the longest strip possible for the terrain! using the RFDS guide would be a good benchmark.

[Sunfish]

Sounds to me that if you need aboout 800 metres, you might as well go the whole hog and do an RFDS capable strip. You never know when you are going to need that extra length:}

[QSK?]

Remember, P-Charts for later model GA aircraft are no longer factored so, after having determined the most appropriate length from the charts, you may want to consider applying a factor of maybe 1.25, 1.3 or even up to 1.5 just to give you that extra safety margin.

[Angle of Attack]

Yes thanks for the replies, yeah I guess I could have looked at a performance manual but he doesnt know what planes hed fly in there, just small singles I guess. I did say to him the longer the better hehe, well maybe I gave the wrong impression, there isnt a whole lot of bulldozing to do, its almost already clear except for a few rocks and some scrub at one end, so it wouldnt be a really expensive excercise, thus he was thinking maybe he could use it as an airstrip. Yes thats right, its also the departure and approach area for obstacles to consider, he reckons theres nothing there though, personally I havent seen the site, he estimates hes got around 700 metres so seems it should be long enough in most conditions. Thanks again! :ok:

[Cloud Cutter]

400 is definitely way to short.
For what?

The grass rwys at both Ardmore an Christchurch are round 500 m and you would have no worries getting a full 172 or PA28 out of them under most conditions.

If you wanted to operate say a PA31, something round 700 m would be a balpark min.

[scrambler]

400m might be ok at Windy Wellington, but at 35 plus deg and nil wind its not so pleasant

[maxgrad]

cloudcutter
if you are going to operate a pa31 at that lenght, be very carefull of temps.
Used to operate one in 30 deg + and 900 was a good safe benchmark. Yes it can get in/out of shorter but why make it difficult and possibly fatal?

[Lodown]

Can't remember who told me and can't verify if at all true, but heard a story once about a cocky telling the dozer driver to clear 3000ft for a strip. Dozer driver cleared 3000m instead.

[flyby_kiwi]

Watch for anyone from NZ - It never gets above +20C.

As mentioned - Depending on all the variables of course

[N2000]

The other useful thing for your mate to do would be to read the CAAP on "Guidelines for aeroplane landing areas".

It available on the web fi you go to http://casa.gov.au/rules/caap.htm

[VH-Cheer Up]

Longer the better... As the actress said to the bishop :cool:

Better make sure about the width, too, and that RFDS guide sounds like a good resource.

Might want to check with the local council to be sure no permit is required.

VHCU

[hi on oz]

Nobody seems to have thought about the effect of rain/soft ground and then eventually long grass on the performance in both landing an takeoff.

If a twin is to be used then consideration should be given to an additional 'safety margin' in the event of an engine failure.

You may also find the following table useful.

NOTE – The graphs found in the POH are set for hard surface level runways. The factors shown immediately below may be used as a guide to further enhance our understanding. It must be recognised that combinations of the factors are cumulative.

TAKEOFF
CONDITION % Increase To 50’ FACTOR
Each 10% increase in weight 20% 1.2
Each 1000’ increase in elev 10% 1.1
Each 100C increase in temp. 10% 1.1
Short(13cm) dry grass 20% 1.2
Long (14-25cm) dry grass 25% 1.25
Short Wet Grass 25% 1.25
Long Wet Grass 30% 1.3
A 2% slope Uphill 10% 1.1
A tailwind component = to 10% of liftoff speed
20% 1.2
Slush or boggy ground 25% or more 1.25 +
CAO 20.7.4 factors for aircraft type - check CAO

[bushy]

In central Australia some strips are 2000 amsl, and on a 40 degree day you will need about 1250meters to get a loaded chieftain out.
Major causes of accidents are bad weather, and bad airstrips. Look at the charts.

[Roger Standby]

What's more important, length or width?:E ;)

[scrambler]

Roger Standby (or is it RS for short!), I don't think length or width is the question; its all about number of successful touch downs you make! I would suggest a "smooth approach" helps.

[Wheeler]

400 metres might work but you would have to say it would not leave much room for error in a C182/Archer and the like - lets just hope all of you take offs and landings are perfect ones!