who wants to join Ozjet ?

[colonel hannibal]

So... the big question is .....

1/ Would you join OZjet if/when they get up and running ?

2/ How much would you expect to get paid ?

3/ Would you pay for your own endorsement ?

4/ Would you leave Jetstar / Virgin to join ?

5/ If they paid your endorsement, would you leave a COMMAND on a DHC-8, SF340 etc etc to join ?


AND... the big one ......

69/ WILL they get up and running ???

[Howard Hughes]

1, yes
2, 100,000+
3, no (but would be bonded)
4, no
5, yes
6, the big one......doubtful

[DeltaSix]

Yes, i would.

I'd pay for an endorsement if need be.

Pay - dont expect much I guess. But anything is better than getting $50 a week instructing.

then again, I'm only a low hour piston driver


cheers

D6

[Keg]

No wonder this industry is going down the toilet! In ten years time a bunch of pilots are going to become airline captains and wonder where all the conditions went. They've gone because everyone was happy to work for crap because 'at least it's better to [INSERT WHATEVER YOUR CURRENT POOR EXCUSE IS HERE].! :{

[DirectAnywhere]

Refer Delta Six's Previous (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=169650) .

[jetblues]

Leave the comfort of the NG to fly a clapped out -200 hell no.

[AnQrKa]

Keg,

How is the view from up there in the plush velvet seat of condescension.

Why are you so concerned with the salary level Delta Six is willing to accept? How will it impact you at QF?

[Erin Brockovich]

AnQrKa, please tell me your kidding. What you and obviously still a lot of people have to realise is that you all play a part in determining the conditions of any airline, even QF. Eat away at the foundations and everything eventually comes tumbling down. It actually starts in GA, and if we don't change your way of thinking along the way, guess what, we never will. $300,000 for your endo please Delta 6 - ok boss, you can have a bit of my super too, I don't need it for a few years yet.

Delta 6, I don't blame you perse. It's probably the environment you started working in. You probably think it's ok and the norm to keep paying for the privilage of being a pilot. Most of us at some time in our career made sacrifices and put up with sub standard conditions to get ahead, but it sure aint worth it if thats all we'll be doing even in our airline careers.

Stop trying to dim the light at the end of the tunnel!

[fruitbatflyer]

See article in Sydney Morning Herald on March 25, by Scott Rochfort for one person's assessment of their chances.
For some balance, see article in The Age on March 27 by Simon Hoyle.
IF it gets up, this will be a great job for people with nothing to lose but their seniority, or for people looking for a leg up the food-chain from GA.
Why would I advise against paying for an endo? What use is either a 146 or a 732 in today's marketplace? For the likely cost you could buy an A320, or 73NG. However, I would accept a bond, as I have said before elsewhere, responsible management owes it to the shareholders to make some effort to insure that they don't just train pilots for the ultimate benefit of Dragonair or Emeriates etc.
What would I expect to be paid? The same rate as paid at NJS, and not one cent less. To expect more would probably be unrealistic as same equipment probably means about same profit (or loss) margins. To take less would be devaluing even further the proffession.

[BankAngle50]

AnQrKa You idiot! And people wonder why we are the lowest paid pilots excluding Kiwi and East Europe. Also the seats aren’t that comfortable.

Agree with KEG!

[Scooter]

responsible management owes it to the shareholders to make some effort to insure that they don't just train pilots for the ultimate benefit of Dragonair or Emeriates etc.

Fruitbatflyer.

It seems to be the attitude on this website that just having an endorsement is enough to gain employment with Dragonair or Emirates.

The last time I looked, the last batch of guys interviewed at Dragonair from JetStar as well as VB all missed out and didnt meet the grade.
Just having an endorsement with a few hours does not a suitable candidate make!

I cant speak for Emirates of course but my mates there are pissed off with an enforced pay cut with no company consultation as well as direct entry Captains.

Add to this as has been mentioned on this website previously, Emirates are stepping up employment from third world nations airlines in order to further reduce costs.
Expect to see alot of Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Philipino, Indonesian etc recruits into EK.

The thing is to these guys, it's a big pay rise and better conditions, especially for their families.

To those that want to pay for your own endorsement it reminded me being Chief Pilot of a GA outfit in Oz.
Some guy wrote,"being a wealthy graziers son, I am willing to work for free".

Guess where that resume ended up !!
My attitude hasnt changed in relation to those that want to pay for their own endorsement either - you're just as bad in my book.

If an airline goes to the trouble of recruiting the suitable candidate and trust you with their hundred plus million dollar machine then they should be able to pay for your endorsement and train you accordingly.

[fruitbatflyer]

If you read the fine print of my posts, you will see that I do expect the airline to pay for the endo. Also, because I am a reasonable person, I do expect to sign a bond, and if I then choose to jump ship to greener pastures, expect to pay whatever is left on the bond. I have never paid for an endorsement up-front in my life. The one time I chose to break a bond half way thru' I figured that I had got, and given, fair value, so paid half.
Pilots are sometimes just as bad at taking employers for a ride, as the reverse, and it is because of these turkeys we now have bonds, or worse, paying up front for endorsements.

[Capn Bloggs]

Scooter,

My attitude hasnt changed in relation to those that want to pay for their own endorsement either - you're just as bad in my book.

Unfortunately, that is not the attitude of the chief bean-counter in my company... "You WANT to pay? C'mon down!".

:yuk:

[AnQrKa]

Erin,

No, not kidding. You just don’t know a rhetorical question when you see one.

“What you and obviously still a lot of people have to realise is that you all play a part in determining the conditions of any airline, even QF”

I suspect that Delta is fully aware of this, but it’s his choice. If you don’t agree with self funded type ratings, then don’t do it. Simple.

“You probably think it's ok and the norm to keep paying for the privilage of being a pilot”

Why is it a privilege to be a pilot?

Bank Angle,

My statement is nothing more than an opinion and is not subject to ridicule – it is after all, an opinion, something I am entitled to just as much as you are.

On the other hand, your statement is factually incorrect. There are literally dozens of airlines, many in the region, that pay considerably less than QF (or even VB and Jetstar). “We” are not the lowest paid airline pilots “excluding Kiwi and East Europe” but if it makes you feel comfortable maintaining the rage, then go right ahead. Being miss-informed is nothing new in Australian aviation.

More importantly, who exactly would “wonder why”?

[2crows]

I personally don't see the problem, is the job being offered better than what you have (not HAD!), can you justify some short term pain for what ultimately would be an outstanding job, if you can good luck. Should the idea of you taking this job somehow effect a QF pilots salary and conditions,I doubt it but who cares.Your primary reason should be that its good for you and your circumstances.

Is this sort of attitude going to destroy our pay & conditions, to late dont you think. Is it going to create ALOT more jobs for pilots, absolutely!

Go hard or go home

[Spotlight]

Can someone convince me that 2Crows is not a management plant seeking to corrupt young and foolish minds!

[Kaptin M]

Should the idea of you taking this job somehow effect a QF pilots salary and conditions,I doubt it but who cares. Spoken like a true s_ _b!
Why add those last few words?! They seriously detract from the rest of the post.

[SeaEagle]

Say you join a company that operates 3 aircraft type. The one you’d like to be on is a shiny new state of the air jet. But to get there you have to do time on the others as FO then Captain and pay your way. So it’s SIX endorsements at say $30k each (average) and you achieve your goal in 10 years. That of corse doesn’t include cost accrued while training, living, mortgage, etc. (A training wage doesn’t cover much.)

So you’ve payed out $180k+ over ten years to achieve you goal.

You are financially better off driving a delivery truck 40hr a week, and you home/social life would be far better off.

Answers to ‘colonel hannibal’ questions:
1. yes
2. $120K +
3. NO
4. no
5. yes
6. From what I see so far - Very doubtful

[Zapatas Blood]

Bank Angle 50 – I am unsure who you work for but it is very dangerous to start comparing the income levels of pilots in Australia with those of other countries. Airline pilots in your country are in a reasonably good position.

Most new hires in the US are being taken on by airlines offering less than us$50000 to fly A320/737/717 (no profit share, B plan retirement only, no 401k match). Some pay as low as sub 40k. Based in cities such as New York or Chicago, it is a pitiful income to survive on. How does this compare to Qantas, Virgin Blue or Jetstar?

Or maybe you would like to work for Westjet in Canada. Or AC Jazz.

Airlines in most Asian countries such as Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, China and Philippines pay airline pilots a mere fraction of what a Qantas/Virgin/Jetstar pilot would be paid.

And don’t think that all pilots employed by western European airlines enjoy higher salaries than pilots in Australia. You are better off working for Qantas than SAS, KLM, Alitalia, Sabena, Aer Lingus etc.

Over to you bank angle.

[bushy]

Erin,
I find your logic a little strange. You say that paying for endorsements is very bad, yet you admit that most of you have put up with substandard conditions in order to get ahead.
It seems that it's ok to do that in GA, but not ok when it comes to the bigger airlines.
(what's new)
The real problem was caused by the major airlines which do not do any training, but pinch trained pilots from the air force, commuters, or GA . So for every airline job there are about 100 pilots trained and joining in the lottery. And there are no holds barred.
GA operators have a high accident rate because they have to operate with an itinerant pool of beginners. And the economics are crazy because you have to compete with operators who get free flying and cut prices.
It can be fixed easily by the airlines interviewing before training (like the airforce does) and having 100% cadet entry.Then the other 99 will know where they are going (or not going) and we will have some sense in the industry, and much more stability.
The things today's airline pilots started in GA years ago are now spreading to commuters. and the majors What's next?

[What-ho Squiffy!]

It doesn't look good for the "profession" of aviation over the next 20 years or so.

Wages will keep being cut right up to the point where we only have slack-jawed Troglodytes up front and "in control". After all, who in their right mind would want to fork out all the money in order to fly, only to be paid peanuts and spend the majority of your life away from home?

Those with enough brains will have realised that the "profession" of aviation is no more, and that there is more money and quality of life to be had by buying a Jim's Mowing franchise and getting a bit of fresh air.

But it's ok - by that stage we will have entered the wonderful age of full automation, where operators can get rid of those whingers up front.

Now, if only they could find a way to automate cabin service....

:ok:

[VH-Cheer Up]

Now, if only they could find a way to automate cabin service....

The LCCs have gone one better and eliminated it, or should I say turned it into a profit centre.

VHCU

[Erin Brockovich]

Why is it a privilege to be a pilot?Well if it keeps going the way it is only a privileged few will be able to afford the ongoing costs. After re-reading my post I realised I may have caused some confusion and also came down on poor Delta6 a bit hard. Sorry mate, it wasn't meant to be all directed at you. But like AnQrKa said, it is your choice. What sort of industry do you want to spend your working life in.

Bushy, I agree I should have worded my point a little better. Sub-standard conditions can mean anything, and to be specific I haven't paid for any endorsements since initial training. Starting out your career as a low time apprentice pilot with no experience, you are offered no choice but to accept the first sub-standard job offer that comes your way. (Please correct me if there are operators out there that pay and follow the outdated award, situated in nice tows or cities and take on 150-250hr pilots). When however you accumulate the minimum qualifications and experience for airline entry ie 2000T, 500Mpic, 100Ngt/IF, ATPL you are in a totally different position. There are choices at this point. $18,000 up front for $45,000 / yr in Sydney is not a good option by any stretch. You may get your wish yet bushy cause I don't see GA being around for too much longer.

Got to go and save Beverly Hills High now.

[DeltaSix]

Guys, believe me, I know where you're all coming from. I dont like paying for endorsements as much as the other guy - I'm not rich, but if that is the only thing that was offered to me at that time and no other job prospects in an airline, what can I do ?........ I dont make their ( airlines ) policy, they do. I am just a guy who is trying for a break and a victim caught up in an airline's changing policy. Heck, if I can get it for free, then why not ?

Shouldn't you be having a go instead at the airlines who makes these policy and maybe go to a union to regulate the airlines from asking for endorsement money ?......... especially for the airlines who can afford it, and not me ?........ sure, as Erin says we shape the future by these decisions, but maybe a more powerful organization would be able to do soemthing and not a struggling GA pilot who doesn't even have any say on how much fees he has to pay for a security check.

But, has anyone thought that by me saying yes, I could be helping this new company by giving it the edge it needs in this competitive world of airline business with rising fuel prices, CPI, wages, competition,etc.etc and maybe save 150 families from having one less pay packet at the end of the day if it ends up like Ansett ?

If I can have the endorsement for free then good and well. But what if I dont ?


D6

[gaunty]

The boss of NW Prawn trawlers was on the radio today complaining about the loss to his industry of over 150 people to the mining industry who pay better and who provide 10 Star living conditions relevant to that found on the prawn trawler.

They can't get experienced relacements to save their lives and maybe businesses as they are operating at 50% capacity.

Watch prawn prices go through the roof or come from overseas.

This is anecdotal evidence of a real labour shortage that has developed in Oz in all sectors.
Skilled Aussies are now going where the money and conditions are, generally o'seas as it is a worldwide problem, and not necessarily coming back.
Our company costs our skilled trades at around $90-100 p/h with most of them grossing at least $80-90,000 pa plus allowances and they are licensed and they do belong to strong trade associations.

Having said that we are by world standards lagging behind.

It's called supply and demand, does the above "airline pay for endo discusion" mean that the supply exceeds demand?.
Why have the airlines given up on providing endorsements?
Is this the "new way" and we just gotta get on with it?

Seems to me the problem and the solution belongs with the "are and wannabe" pilot population not the airlines. :ouch:

Kaptin M would agree we don't seem to be learning the lessons of the past, but maybe sadly, they are no longer relevant.