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cavortingcheetah
7th Apr 2005, 02:35
:) I do not know if it's legal to do this but I have below, tried to copy an article I read in today's Times on the Internet.

April 07, 2005

Foreign Editor's Briefing

There are no winners in the Boeing-Airbus dogfight
By Bronwen Maddox



THIS has to be one of the stupidest rows it has picked. It is a mystery why the United States thinks it can win by setting Boeing on a collision course with Airbus.
Any ruling could harm both companies, as well as relations with Europe, just when the US claims to be trying to make them better. Whether Peter Mandelson likes it or not, this row could become the defining case of his stint as Europe’s Trade Commissioner.



This week the dispute has got worse. The exchanges between Mr Mandelson and Robert Zoellick, his American counterpart, have become more short-tempered. Chances of a resolution by Monday, the mutually chosen deadline, are not exactly zero, but they are heading in that direction.

Together, Airbus and Boeing are the entire market. Airbus is that rare thing: a world-class, European-grown, high-technology company. Boeing, a giant of an employer on the West Coast, also reaches deep in some of its work into the US’s vast defence budget. One’s loss is the other’s gain.

The row started last October when the Bush Administration, urged by Boeing, pulled out of a 12-year-old deal on how the US and the EU would each subsidise their aircraft industries.

Many in Europe assumed that the motivation was the presidential election. Jonathan Evans, the Conservative chairman of the European Parliament’s transatlantic relations group, notes that the decision came just before the second presidential debate, when Mr Bush appeared to be struggling.

The Bush Administration has denied this. Mr Zoellick, in Brussels this week, said that the Administration was committed to free trade and wanted to see the end of subsidies. He argued that the EU was reneging on an agreement to phase them out.

Those close to Airbus allege a more complicated commercial motive. They say that when Airbus chose to build the 800-seat A380, to fly from “hub to hub”, Boeing assumed that it would have the much larger market for smaller aircraft to itself. But when Airbus made clear that it would compete there, too, Boeing looked for a way of crying foul, and homed in on the subsidies given to these new designs.

No one denies that the European subsidies exist. The EU gives Airbus “launch investment” for new models, which it need pay back only if they are successful. The EU counters that Boeing, too, gets subsidies. It receives direct help from Washington State. It continues to benefit from a tax loophole that has been almost entirely closed for other companies. It develops some designs in partnership with Japanese companies, which themselves get aid. Hardest to quantify are the benefits from its defence work.

In the wrangling this week, Mr Zoellick said that he was willing to keep talking, but he appeared to dismiss Mr Mandelson’s offer last week to begin scaling down launch investment. He added sniffily that Mr Mandelson had failed to put the offer to him directly, saying: “I read his position in The Washington Post. That’s not exactly the way I did business with [Pascal] Lamy [Mr Mandelson’s predecessor].”

Personal acrimony may be part of the problem, but many in the European Commission are suspicious of Mr Zoellick. “There is a perception in Washington that Europe is a continent awash in subsidy, but that the US is a perfect free market,” one official said. However, as told in caustic inside accounts of Mr Bush’s first term, Mr Zoellick was good at talking the talk of free trade, but either had no influence as the Administration passed Bills protecting US farms and steelmakers or had no interest in arguing against them.

He says now that if a resolution cannot be found, perhaps it would be best if the row were referred to the World Trade Organisation. If this is US brinksmanship, it seems curiously risky. As Mr Evans puts it: “It is hard to imagine that the WTO would come down on Airbus’s launch aid, without also acting on Boeing.”

Then both sides would suffer.

Regards to all readers.
cc.


ome find it interesting.;) ;) ;)

ChrisVJ
7th Apr 2005, 03:47
You have to understand a couple of things about the USA philosophy of doing business.

We've had a round or two of it here over softwood lumber. Firstly the administration claims that it is not their doing, it is all about action by the manufacturers themselves. Second, they ignore all the rulings, there is always (for nearly four years now) another place to go. They play hardball during the holdup making deals like "Charge an export tax or we'll impose imort taxes" then the proceeding pretty well go back to square one. They also work all the angles, make side deals, break inconvenient rules, discontinue agreements., buy up the companies that get into trouble because of their action.

Unless you can play this game better than they do you should not take it too lightly.

cavortingcheetah
7th Apr 2005, 04:07
:) Without going into the historics of the New Deal, or whatever,
that's pretty much what you do in business if you really want to be a success. Unpopularity may go with that but; try to separate the little Green Eyed Monster as seen by others from the consequential reality of being the greatest rolling motion picture in the history of this galactic world.;)

M.Mouse
7th Apr 2005, 08:59
Does the US apparent dislike of subsidies extend to the money given to bankrupt airlines and their protection from creditors afforded by Chapter 11?

Remind me again how long some airlines have remained in Chapter 11 protection?

Tandemrotor
7th Apr 2005, 09:47
Now now Mr Mouse,

That's what the Americans call a level playing field, and don't you forget it!

egld0624
7th Apr 2005, 12:43
Hi All,

Pls no hypocrisy here – this really appears to be nothing more than the usual banter of the economic and political dominance game played between the US and EU. Both sides arguably subsidise one way or another their respective leading Arch Aero-manufacturers even if they disagree on the definition of the word and its actual implementation. Nobody’s being taught to suck eggs here. Given the above, the outcome will ultimately hurt both sides. It just draws light to their own problems and existing protectionist arguments in practice whilst preaching free trade.

In reality aviation in both camps is hardly what you can call “free trade” with granted, some small exceptions. The overall picture is far from free for historic reasons you know too well.

Furthermore, both sides are historically hypocritical of undermining free trade promotion for their own domestic issues and protection across the board and not just aviation. One also has to question both the EU and US’s understanding of the term “free trade” – that appears to be somewhat flexible. This Boeing vs Airbus (or US vs EU) argument is sadly flawed as both sides claim their linen is whiter than the other without checking their own first!

Kind regards,

EG

sammypilot
7th Apr 2005, 13:46
Doesn't anybody find it as terrifying as I do that the EU Chief Negotiator is none other than that twice failed Cabinet Minister, Peter Mandelson.

zehutiman
7th Apr 2005, 14:07
No one denies that the European subsidies exist. The EU gives Airbus “launch investment” for new models, which it need pay back only if they are successful. The EU counters that Boeing, too, gets subsidies. It receives direct help from Washington State.
The tax "subsidies" that Boeing gets from WA State are a pittance compared to the subsidies necessary for "launch investment." Think about it...how incredibly risky you can be if you know that for every new launch idea you attempt, someone is going to come in and reimburse you if it doesn't work out. Boeing gets nothing like that. Does the US apparent dislike of subsidies extend to the money given to bankrupt airlines and their protection from creditors afforded by Chapter 11?
A very valid point. The US gov't has only GUARANTEED loans for airlines, which, BTW, were the result of 9/11. And, while the media is fond of quoting $15 Billion in gov't loans, the actual amount ended up being approx. $1.9 Billion, and again, they were guarantees, not actual loans.

Now, what I do have a beef with, is the fact that the US Gov't meddles itself to death in an industry that is supposedly deregulated. If they would leave the airlines alone, the weak ones would simply go out of business. Additionally, we've got companies like GE who seem only too happy to lend tons of money to failing airlines. They're not subsidies, though; I assume you know the difference. These lenders are getting equity and control of the companies in question, but it's killing the rest of the industry. Something's gotta change, and bankruptcy laws in the US would be a good start.

Mo

Golf Charlie Charlie
7th Apr 2005, 14:31
<<<
The US gov't has only GUARANTEED loans for airlines, which, BTW, were the result of 9/11. And, while the media is fond of quoting $15 Billion in gov't loans, the actual amount ended up being approx. $1.9 Billion, and again, they were guarantees, not actual loans
>>>

Not strictly true. When the Air Transport Stabilization Board was set up right after 9/11, it was divided into two sgements. The first was a $500m pot of money which was paid out in cash to the airlines to compensate them for 9/11 related losses, primarily the 3-day shutdown and enhanced federally mandated security measures.

The guarantee component was the second segment, totalling $5bn. In fact, less than half this amount was committed, and no more will now be granted, because of opposition now to such generosity which is often perceived to benefit the weaker airlines, notably those in Chapter 11.

Actually, there was a third component, which was an insurance underwriting clause, since airlines were unable to obtain third party liability in the wake of 9/11 on the open commercial market. However, this problem affected European airlines too, and the EU also put together some sort of insurance back-stop.