Grey F-117s

[Razor61]

Although i've known about this for some time, another forum posted a pic of it recently....

Just doesn't look right does it, painted grey. The USAF painted the F-117 grey to determine whether daytime operations were feasable.
Can't imagine a B-2A grey either (or gray as our over the pond ally likes to call it)

Is this the end of proper 'camo' schemes for NATO aircraft? Pretty much all of the front line aircraft in the UK, US and Europe are now Grey, apart from the Germans and our new partners of Eastern Europe!

http://www.af.mil/media/photodb/web/web_031209-F-0000S-001.jpg

[diginagain]

Back in the late 80's the colour scheme on our Gazelles and Lynx went from olive drab and matt black, to a pale grey and a lighter shade of green. Very effective camouflage, particularly down in the dirt, at about 2kms, where everything goes shades of grey

Pity that the effect was spoiled on the Lynx by the shiny aircraft sides - any Lynx crew will, I'm sure, empathise!

[SASless]

The gray is supposed to be the better color than black....the Air Force powers that be ordained that if you fly at night...you must fly in a black airplane....never mind the facts. The original paint scheme was a camo style with gray and green if I recall correctly. It is in the resource material on the early models prior to the first crash in California that blew the lid off the project. The Military channel referenced that and had video of the aircraft in that paint scheme.

[Razor61]

There is actually a white YF-117 at Palmdale still flying about, it's not primer either.

[Pontius Navigator]

Back in the 70s a civil servant who was interested in these things noticed how the RAF had several different, but identically styled, perhaps the most interesting was the brown and brown desert camouflage in gloss!

He got to wondering why different schemes were chosen and by whom. It turned out that 'it was a good idea' probably from some war-time airship and that following instructions everyone just got on and painted everything. The V-force hi-gloss cam/wht was intended for low level concealment and anti-flash. The rest, he found had no real scientific basis.

The first question he asked was why? Was it to hide them on the ground or in the air? The answer, perhaps surprisingly, was to hide them on the ground.

Remember this was just 3 years after the 6-day war and pre-HAS days. The upshot was that Lightnings in Germany went green and desert transports went pink. Or rather should have gone pink.

He had a trial mounted with a Herc at Kingsfield strip painted in pink. Part of the aircraft was concealed with camnet and it was parked at the side of the strip. The colour photo showed it was damn near invisible. Possibly not effective against PIs but to a passing FJ very effective.

Thereafter the RAF seemed to get a grip on its colour schemes. The Chocolate Bomber was one attempt but they got the NSN wrong. The Hemp Nimrods were very difficult to see on the ground at ISK especially in sodium lighting which was vogue at the time.

Eventually as the threat changed so did the colour schemes change to air-to-air camouflage and the near universal dull grey. BWOS did trials on an aircraft (Tornado model I think) with adaptive lighting. As you looked towards the flying aircraft it would 'block' light from the background. Their solution was to light the aircraft to match the background.

The corollary to this was the change of trainer aircraft from silver/dayglo red to gloss black.

This brings us back to the beginning. Black contrasts more than grey be it by day or by night. Cheers.

[Regie Mental]

Only one F-117 has received this scheme and that's the one that belongs to the test unit at Holloman. The evaluation is ongoing I believe.

[Art Field]

Pontius Nav, I wonder if the civil servant that you refer to was a Mr Barley (Phil I think) working out of Farnborough, he of Barley Grey fame. a world class specialist on concealment tucked away in a tin shed. He was amazed that the paint finish on RAF aircraft was dictated by the requirements of the engineers rather than that of camouflage and was most insistant on things like the gloss content of the paint. An unsung hero in his way.

[rivetjoint]

Give the F/A-22 a few years to get its JDAMs hitting the right spot and the F-117 will be history. Painting it grey is just another way to try and justify such high costs for such a small fleet of unusually unique aircraft.

[Flying_Anorak]

"Can't imagine a B-2A grey either (or gray as our over the pond ally likes to call it)"

Errrmm hate to tell you this Razor but the B2 is already grey (gray) in colour - FS36118 Gunship Grey if I'm not mistaken!


Coat already on and going for the door....

[Razor61]

Flying Anorak................. :rolleyes: you know what i mean't :)


how effective is the Russian/Ukrainian scheme of "Blue and white" to aircraft in flight. ??

[SASless]

Copies of some posts made at various web sites about the 117 paint changes....no idea on how credible any of these are....

1) (US Air Force ???) Air Force's Monthly ran a article on painting 2 aircraft grey to see if suitable for day operations. Which included testing with other aicraft.

2) Last year the USAF painted one F-117 with the same paint as the Raptor uses, because they wanted the plane to have the ability to strike during the day.

The F-117 is a 1st gen stealth, and its ageing, its not as "black" as it used to be, we have better stealth aircraft now so it doesn't have to be so secretive. So to make it more useful they want some that can fly in the daytime. As far as I know they have only painted one F-117 the color of the Raptor, but i would assume that they will paint some more.

But dont think this means that the B-2 will go grey, its much better then the nighthawk.

Actually I wouldn't be suprised if they are planning on painting the Raptor black, obviously not all but around 6 to 12 of them. So when we first attack a country we can use the state of art F-22, along with our bombers, so they are all black, and the F-22's could clear the skies at nightime.

3) My February issue of Flight Journal has a camo F-117 on the cover. Its sort of a grey/olive scheme, gray on the bottom but a camo pattern on top.

It says:
"The night-only F-117 is being evaluated for daytime operations, hence the light-gray color scheme."

It was taken near Holloman AFB in NM. Flown by the 53rd Test and Evaluation group.


4) According to Ben Rich [re: Lookheed Skunkworks fame], black is NOT the the ideal color for low observeble aircraft operating at night. Ben said, several years ago, the color scheme most difficult to detect visually is actually more of a 'pastel', but higher-ups didn't feel it proper to paint military aircraft in such ways. Can grey be consisered a pastel?

[Bob Viking]

Can vouch for the fact that a jaguar painted grey is still bloody hard to see, and against a dark blue sky is damn near invisible.
BV

[FJJP]

Years ago, the cam experts fitted a tank with lightbulbs and stuck it on the horizon in normal daylight. When the lights were switched on the thing damn near disappeared!

It seems that if a light system could be made lightweight enough to be fitted to aircraft, it could be a very effective daytime [obviously, stupid!] camouflage... Mind you, you'd have to remove the fuses before night ops - or handcuff the co-pilot's hands to his ankles!

After the first week of the first Red Flag, the American crews told the Vulcan operators that the standard European cam was still pretty effective, even against the desert background; but as soon as the white underside was exposed during maneouvre, the thing could be spotted from miles away. That caused the 'wrap round' camouflage scheme that appeared on the Vulcans soon after. Disruption of regular shape appears to be the most effective cam, as seen on some of the more whacky zig-zag paint jobs of a lot of warships during WWII.

[BEagle]

Perhaps the WW2 Spitfire recce mates knew the answer all along - PRU blue!

Barley was indeed an unsung expert - few people realised how many different shades of grey there were on a RAF Phantom. Not just because they were usually covered in soot, hydraulic oil and engine oil, but because there really were at least 3 diffrent greys on each F4.

The VC10 grey colour was initially known as 'John Major Grey'!

Perhaps they should get Lawrence Llewellyn-Bone to dream up a nice pastel scheme for the TypHoon? "I'm seeing eau-de-nil with highlights in cerise....?"

Perhaps the most useless camouflage ever was the old Ascot "2 shades of shiny $hit" used on the Whistling Tit, Andover and early Hercs?

[Razor61]

I see that most of the Tonka GR4's have had their radome painted grey, however it is a different shade of grey to the fuselage. Why two tone? Must say, it does look better!

[Flying_Anorak]

Rumour I hear is that all the remaining F3s (yes both of them!) are to shed their 'Air Defence' Grey scheme in favour of the same overall dark grey scheme as used on the Tonkka GR4s.

Anyone know if this is true....

Still I suppose it makes the stock holding easier - only one type of paint ("Grey - Aircraft for the use of") required. Probably supplied by Humbrol too.....!!!

[soddim]

If my memory is correct, the USAF employed an aviation artist called Keith Ferris in the mid-70s to produce a "new" low-observable paint scheme and he came up with a three-tone grey that was much more effective than the multi-green scheme in current use on the F-4s and the light blue on the F-15s. The Ferris scheme included a false canopy outline on the underside of the fuselage but this was not particulary effective.

[Conan the Librarian]

A few years ago I did see a clip of film on cam schemes and in WW2 a big prob was the time it took for a Catalina to get (anywhere really!!) a good visual with any schnorkel before the sub panicked and went glug, glug, glug. They tried the method mentioned earlier and fitted lights along the leading edges, tied in with a sensor to measure ambient light and to adjust the intensity of those leading edge lights accordingly. Cor!!!! Worked a treat!

Also splinter camoulflage was used on many ships - not to make it invisible, but to create confusion as to which way it was actually travelling. Many leading artists of the day were involved in creating these schemes, which brings me on to this final question. Anyone fancy flying a Damien Hirst Tonka maybe? (hopefully not split down the middle though...)

[BEagle]

Still I suppose it makes the stock holding easier - only one type of paint ("Grey - Aircraft for the use of") required. Probably supplied by Humbrol too.....!!!

Well, my theory was that the ubiquitous 'pusser', so well-loved by the Senior Service, ordered vast quantities of 'Paint, Grey, War Canoes for the Painting with' back in the days when we had large numbers of jolly splendid ships like HMS Valiant. The yoof of the day, doing its National Service, would paint everything in sight that wasn't breathing or face another night in the barrel at the mercy of hairy stokers.

Then came defence cuts. But there were all these tins of paint... Staff solution - paint everything and everything in 'orrible warship grey.

So they did....

[Talking Radalt]

Also splinter camoulflage was used on many ships - not to make it invisible, but to create confusion as to which way it was actually travelling
Errrr, since when did RN need a specific paint job to achieve this? :E

[Raymond Ginardon]

soddim,

I would be surprised if the false canopy (paint) was designed as cammo. I believe it was designed to deny (or reduce) the enemy (fighter) SA when it got to the tally and turn stage.

It is IMHE (sometimes) effective at producing the desired effect, but unfortunately more often in tac manoeuvering with your buddies than in BFM (even with your buddies who know the false canopy is there!).

Ray

[FJJP]

I don't own one meself [get seasick!] but those who own boats treated pussers' deck paint like platinum dust!

Best in the world, I'm told...

[Wwyvern]

In the early 70s in NI, we had no "operational" paint schemes on our aircraft. We painted out the white of our roundels and tail colours, becoming red, black and blue instead of the normal for then red white and blue. The colour of the crews' helmets was changed from white to green by applying Army landrover paint, supplied by our RAF rep in Lisburn. MOD London didn't want to know. About that time, I think we went to green flying gloves.

Discussion took place about what combat camouflage we should paint the helicopters, and someone came up with the grey/brown top and matt black undersides. Some old guy in the MOD was asked, and he said that gloss black was good for the undersides, because that was what the WWII bombers had. When a searchlight caught a bomber, the gloss paint dispersed the beam and made it difficult for the AAA gunners to get a sighting.

[Pontius Navigator]

Art Field, wonderful "civil servant that you refer to was a Mr Barley (Phil I think) working out of Farnborough" there is always someone here who can corroborate a story with hard facts. Yes, now you mention the name.

To suggest an answer to the different coloured radomes on the GR4 may I suggest Engineers!

The Vulcan initially retained a black radom as the wiggly amps could not penetrate grey paint!!!!!!!! Then they started to paint the radom and aircraft.

It took the engineers about 2 and half minutes to swap the radomes around. We then had multi-coloured camouflage. When we got them all black/white/grey/green they did another shuffle so that the cheat line between cam and white was different betwixt radome and and fuselage. It looked like an engineering conspiracy to make the aircraft look like cr*p.

[Jobza Guddun]

To suggest an answer to the different coloured radomes on the GR4 may I suggest Engineers!

No you may not, sah!

We just fit what comes out of the box! The grey 'uns came about obviously because of Telic, I guess they're all just going that way for commonality.

Looks a lot better anyway if you ask me.

[Sir Loin]

To suggest an answer to the different coloured radomes on the GR4 may I suggest Engineers!

What part of the decision making on aircraft colours do you think engineers play Pontious?



"Hmmm, what colour shall we paint this one then Fred?"

"Better ask the engineers Bob. It's their hangar it's going to be sat in all day after all"

RING RING........RING RING....

"Hello Cpl ******, II Sqn tea bar"

"Hello there, SAC Bloggs from the paint shop here. Just a quick one, what colour do you fancy this one then?"

"Oooh....Erm.....We've already got loads that look the same...and I suppose the place COULD do with brightening up a bit, so how about a bit of all sorts. Just slap on what you've got"




The answer to the different radome colours might lie in the fact that they are not painted, and instead coated with a grey coloured "Erocoat" Which is specifically designed to withstand the air particles battering it at 800kts, and give a degree of protection to the delicate composite radome.

Jobza,

Agree completely. They look loads better. Just the colour I'd have asked for if they'd have rung me!:}

[dmanton300]

For the anoraks amongst us the grey F-117 is painted in 36251 and 36176, the same colours as the "Mod-Eagle" scheme applied to USAF F-15's after trials in the PACAF units in the late 80's.

And if you go to Airliners.net and put "Tornado" intot he search engine you will get pics of the Tornado F.3 in it's new scheme. Not sure but it appears to me to be overall dark camoflage grey (the colour of the undersides of Tornado GR.4/Harrier/Jaguar currently), and they have also reverted to normal red/blue type B roundels rather than pink/blue of the paler schemes.

[moggiee]

Will it have to be renamed "Foghawk" rather than "Nighthawk"?

[Razor61]

Soddim,

The Canucks have the false canopy sprayed on the underside on their CF-188s (F/A-18s). They must be the only Air Force to do this now?

[soddim]

Guess so. The USAF abandoned the idea because by the time you were close enough to see it there were plenty of other features to tell you which way up it was.

Good gimmick though.

[engineer(retard)]

PN

We change the radomes about to match the colour of the aircrew hair. We could not have you flashing around the sky unco-ordinated, what would changing rooms say. The main reason for mismatches was aircrew changing the flying programme.

On a more serious note, to change the colour of an aircraft requires a mod becasue you are deviating from the drawing set. BAE made us paint the tonkas going in for MLU because they did not match the drawing set and were not to the agreed acceptance standard. Also if there is a significant conductive content in the paint it drags down the radar performance.

Retard

[Pontius Navigator]

Engineer (retard) that you , you have vindicated me. I didn't think the aircrew painted them :)

What I was really saying is that the engineers do exactly that, take e\'em out of the box and stick \'em on the Tonka.

On the V the radom and aircraft were painted in one go then a short while later someone would sneak out on the line and shuffle them all around.

I don\'t know what it is like nowadays but in the \'60s the mods came in fast and furious and we would fly in a different spec jet just about every trip.

[engineer(retard)]

PN

Unfortunately we were limited by only having grey and black to play with intially. Gingers found it hard to get sorties allocated.

Fortunatley, GW1 and the pink paint allowed us to co-ordinate with the follically challenged but we could not get much of a shine on that paint. The simplest solution would have been to have the aircrew to pick up wigs on crew out, would have saved many manhours swapping radomes :O

Regards

Retard

[rivetjoint]

Is it polite to ask a lady pilot if the colour of her cone matches the hair on her head?

[MajorMadMax]

The Canucks have the false canopy sprayed on the underside on their CF-188s (F/A-18s). They must be the only Air Force to do this now?
Sorry, USAF A-10s still have it as well...http://forum.a-10.org/newicons/icon_hog.gif

Cheers! M2
Go Ugly Early!

[Lighthouse]

Is this a taste of things to come?

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=789263&WxsIERv=Obrvat%20S%2FN-18P%20Ubearg&WdsYXMg=HFN%20-%20Znevarf&QtODMg=Ry%20Prageb%20-%20ANS%20%28AWX%20%2F%20XAWX%29&ERDLTkt=HFN%20-%20Pnyvsbeavn&ktODMp=Sroehnel%2026%2C%202005&BP=1&WNEb25u=Punq%20Gubznf&xsIERvdWdsY=165188&MgTUQtODMgKE=Gur%20qvtvgny%20pnzbhsyntr%20fpurzr.%20Pnaba%20 300Q%20100-400zz%20S%2F4.5-5.6%20Y%20VF&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=1899&NEb25uZWxs=2005-03-05%2020%3A13%3A29&ODJ9dvCE=&O89Dcjdg=1323%2FP413&static=yes&width=1024&height=695&sok=JURER%20%20%28cubgbtencure%20%3D%20%27Punq%20Gubznf%27%2 9%20%20beqre%20ol%20cubgb_vq%20QRFP&photo_nr=19&prev_id=789264&next_id=786390


This is what soddim was speaking of

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=692677&size=M&width=1038&height=780&sok=JURER%20%20%28ZNGPU%20%28nvepensg%2Cnveyvar%2Ccynpr%2Ccu bgb_qngr%2Cpbhagel%2Cerznex%2Ccubgbtencure%2Crznvy%2Clrne%2C ert%2Cnvepensg_trarevp%2Cpa%2Cpbqr%29%20NTNVAFG%20%28%27%2B% 22s-15%22%20%2B%22qvfehcgvir%22%27%20VA%20OBBYRNA%20ZBQR%29%29%2 0%20BEQRE%20OL%20cubgb_vq%20QRFP&photo_nr=1&prev_id=&next_id=

[Navaleye]

If they painted the thing bright yellow it would still look black at night. No light = no colour. I vaguely remember chasing a pink painted RN Oberon submarine many years ago... but that's another story :uhoh:

[Spotting Bad Guys]

Some of the Jags that were modded for Granby also had cockpits painted on the underside. Not sure what effect it had, but we were told it helped!

SBG

[Sir Loin]

I vaguely remember chasing a pink painted RN Oberon submarine many years ago... but that's another story

A pink painted submarine you say?............Full of seamen?

How very phallic!

Don't think I'd have liked to be on that "Party boat"!!!:p :p

Oooh, chase me;)

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Wasn't there an experiment a few years ago in which the upper surfaces of an SSN were painted bright blue? Something to do with operating in the littoral?

Back to the topic - is it not possible that some F117s are used in a reece role? Who needs Mach 3 when you've got stealth?