Buying an endorsement = buying a job

[bigwing]

What's with the increasing trend of all operators to make pilots pay for endorsements? That Qantas now expects applicants to pay for a Dash-8 endorsement is the last final bloody straw. Where does your average self-funded pilot get that kind of money after forking out tens of thousands already to get to airline transport standard?

What's the industry 'union' doing about it? As far as I can see, two halves of nothing. What on earth do we pay fees for anyway?

Is is just a case of sending the federation a million emails so they get the point that pilots aren't happy about this spiral-dive?

[chief wiggum]

me thinks that the union/AFAP KNOW that people are not happy, yet they persist in doing nothing.

NOW is the time for ALL full time employed pilots to join together and create a STRONG, UNITED front.

Maybe joining the TWU or similar is the way to go ? didn't THEY just get bus drivers some 21% ?

Maybe the police union ? or the teachers union? I am sick to death of hearing about how LITTLE teachers get paid, and that they are always on strike and now they get paid "danger money"
cos students are even more of a brat now than ever!

WHAT ABOUT US ? doesn't hijacking deserve danger money ? what about IMC flying ? Approaches to minima?

What about shifty work allowances ? public holidays and penalty rates?

Politicians get paid HUGE amounts of super because "their job is not secure" ... WHAT ABOUT PILOTS ? Fail a medical or sim/ piss off yer boss/ company goes belly up/etc etc!

and NOW... we get the OPPORTUNITY to invest MORE into our already stagnant careers by BUYING endorsements!!!!!

No thanks!

[Howard Hughes]

Buying an endorsement = Buying a job

Yes it seems flying has become "just a job" not a "career" anymore.

Very, very sad....

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

[sumtingwong]

Well that's bloody it then isn't it.

How long before the other major regionals M*cair, Rip roaring R*x and the like do similar. Not long. Qlink may initially have trouble sourcing pilots with their scam sorry scheme, but the pressure they would be exerting on other similar regionals to do the same would be intense. As a consequence they will all be doing it shortly and any choice made to progress within the industry will come at the cost of about 50% or your yearly earnings.

Skipp@rs, once renowned for finally being the step out of GA now bonds you for 7K for two years, plus you fork out 7K of your own for the endo. For what, to earn 32K a year flying sometimes unqualified labourers (who so far have spent none of the 50-60K on their job's as we all have), to mine site's earning at least twice what the pilots who fly them there earn.

The rest of the dominoes are lining up and the birds are coming home to roost.

It used to be a given, 15 even 10 years ago that you worked for in GA for a number of years. If you were lucky you got the award (which really is laughably inadequate but we seem to aspire to it). Then you got out of GA into the regionals or an airline. You'd done your time, worked crap jobs for crap people but you knew the trade-off was there. A secure job, good pay and no expectations to pay any more (isn't 50-60K enough to get qualified) so you accepted it, kept your mouth shut and did you bloody job.

Where is that trade-off now? People WILL pay for these endorsements to work for between 32-45K as an FO on a metro, bras or Dash, because it will get them out of the endless day-to-day existence that is GA and it's financial right hand man the inadequate award.


It has to start off at the bottom. Operators not paying the award must be forced to. Then the award itself has to be adjusted to reflect that what we do is NOT unskilled labour (we are paid less than an agricultural labourer or a clerk). Then perhaps people reasonably paid and conditioned will not be so desperate to part with vast sum's of money just to earn slightly more. At some stage we need the trade-off or we'll be 65, forced to retire and wonder why none of us ever got ahead of the 8 ball.

Just re-reading my post, waste of time really, it's never going to happen, these schemes may not flourish, but they will take hold.

Bugger this, I'm off overseas. If I’m going to be treated as white slave labour, I'd rather it not be in my own country

[bigwing]

I worked as a truck driver on the goldmines of WA to save for my commercial license. I paid for a Heavy Rigid Truck license and that was it. There is no way in hell that a heavy machinery operator on the mines would BUY an endorsement on a Haulpak, a Watercart, a grader, then a dozer just so as he/she could drive a digger. AFAP's as useful as a hip pocket on a singlet. I ought to go back to the mines...

[Horatio Leafblower]

I hate to detreact from 'our' argument here, but open cut miners DO pay for tickets on standard mining equipment to get into mines in the Hunter Valley, particularly Mt Arthur North where ex-butchers and Halls Creek ringers are earning $110k to work a 36 hour week.

HOWEVER, to convert that into its aviation equiuvalent:

that is the equivalent of getting your PPL on a C152, working for 6 months in a C182, and then straight into the left-hand seat in a B747.

On another note, I would like to thank all the Queer Link pilots for standing up and stating that such practices are unacceptable to the Pilot group... particularly galling after their attitude towards the Impulse boys when they paid for THEIR endorsements.

Good on ya fellas... :rolleyes:

[DeltaSix]

And after asking you to pay for endos, the other mob hits you with a $200 B.S. security ( as if its gonna stop a terrorist ) check.

I spoke to a second officer of an overseas airline. He got in the A330 at 200 hrs doing S.E. IFR in a Cessna 172 without paying a cent. The trade off is he is not gonna get paid decently well until he turns F/O in about 2-3 years maybe. But the pay is still crappy than a normal book-keeper here.

But then, I hate to say this but in that 3 years he will be earning an amount of 15k a year compared to a clerk of 40k. So, the difference per year x 3 years will be like 75k. To him it's like he paid for an A330 endo for 75k ( maybe even more ).

So, looks like its a trend in and out of Oz unfortunately.

One way or the other, they will screw you for money.

No wonder they were losing pilots as soon as they have enough jet time. No loyalty there.


Sumtimwong - I'm with you there, I off overseas in a few months time.


D6

[Ultralights]

es it seems flying has become "just a job" not a "career" anymore.

with these latests developments, Flying is no longer even a JOB, people usually get paid for doing a job,

Flying, at all levels has now become a Full time! HOBBY the person with the most $$ to throw at their hobby, always has the biggest toys!

[Zhaadum]

UNACCEPTABLE!

Sent a email to Eastern today. Told them I will not be paying for this endorsement on Dash 8. Suggested they rethink their policy, or go without pilots. If everyone else who received the email from them replies in a similar fashion maybe they will rethink it when they run short of crew? Or not as may be. Some silvertails will stuff it for everyone else, regardless of their lack of skill as pilots. But I won't stand for it anymore. Stuff em! Earning more in GA (Classified) than airlines as FO ($38k and paying up to 18K for Dash 8 endo AND have to live in expensive Sydney), where is the incentive anymore?

Not Happy Jan!

[Erin Brockovich]

Zhaadum

Couldn't agree more. The pool of experienced pilots is already starting to dry up. The airlines and regionals should be asking them selves who is going to fly their aircraft in 10 years time?
You might be able to get a cadet to become a SO at 200hrs but not a FO or Capt. Where are the experienced (ie 1500T 500MC) pilots going to come from when no one takes up flying because they can't afford to.

Who in their right mind would get a licence (god knows what a CPL costs now) knowing in advance that after years in GA plus extra costs for C-ME IFR etc gets them a($38k and paying up to 18K for Dash 8 endo AND have to live in expensive Sydney)This is the worst time in the industry for operators to go asking for endos and paying peanuts. Lets just turn everybody away from flying.

This is a quote from the QL emailThe review highlighted the fact that this process is in line with industry practice and will allow QantasLink to better meet its overall pilot recruitment requirementsto better meet its overall pilot recruitment requirements:confused:
QL you have just lost my application before I have even considered applying. And I have passed the controversial psych test that seems to cull many suitable candidates.(not indended as a horn blow).

It is getting harder and harder to stay motivated in this industry. 'Pilot' will find its way next to the Tasmanian Tiger on the endangered species list in years to come if the current operators keep acting like Dodos. The key to a successful business is happy (even able to support themself) staff. They are your company's investment, so invest in them and get the returns, real profits - not false ones by cutting costs.

[Towering Q]

In the world of GA, or at least the parts I have been involved with, you are 'obliged' to go and get yourself an endorsement for whatever the company operates, usually B58, C310 or Nav/Chieftain.

Is the current practice being adopted by Easterns etc just a flow on effect from this way of thinking? However, 2K for a Baron endorsement is considerably less than 18K for a Dash 8, especially when you don't end up being paid 9 times the salary!

I look forward to a time when the pool of experienced pilots dries up and these companies will be forced to stop paying peanuts and slugging pilots for endorsements. Maybe I'm just dreaming.

[Whiskey226]

Supply and demand...

To contrast, I work with skydivers. Granted, they have to pay their way to 500 jumps to get a tandem endorsement. But they are scarce as hen's teeth these days, and earn in the order of $50 per jump, equipment provided. If they own a handicam, its another $50 for doing a vid. From 100 jumps its concievable to pay for the next 400 just doing video jumps (but as if you would - not as much fun!). They even get paid for display jumps.

So now all we need to do is convince 90% of all potential flying students to pursue a promising career in accountancy and we're set!

[fruitbatflyer]

Paying for a type rating may be fair enough if you are unemployed and want to enhance your chances of that 1st job. In which case, don't stuff about - go for an A320 or B777 rating, as it won't cost much more than a pissy little Dash 8 anyway.
BUT, if you ARE employed, tell 'em to jam it, unless you can broker a deal like that at NJS, whereby the company apparantly have eased the pain through salary sacrifice and some kind of reimbursement deal at the end. If you all tell 'em to jam it, they either lay you off and pay out redundancy, which you then use to fund a worthwhile type rating (see above) or they come to their senses and train you - see below re bonding.
Bonding is reasonable and to be expected. Pilots can't expect to incur megabuck training costs and then just buggeroff to greener pastures. If I was a shareholder I would not be happy with a management that ran a free flying school for the likes of Cathay or Emirates or the like.

[psycho joe]

People wouldn't just "bugger off" if they were paid a decent wage and had good working conditions.

Besides, just out of interest what other industry bonds employees.

[fruitbatflyer]

Philanthropic Phil owns Metro Mob. His are the best Metros in the business, with air conditioning, autopilots and sheepskin seats, tip top maintence etc etc..

He endorses his pilots with a two week ground school, ten hours of base training and 75 hours of ICUS. They work 4 days on, 4 off and are allowed to commute from anywhere they choose, to Metro Mob's base at Paradise Beach. Daylight flying only, max 60 hours a month. He doesn't require them to pay for their endorsements, and does not bond them. He pays pilots $100,000 a year because he wants them to be happy and wants to keep them.

Along comes Megalomaniac Mel with $100 million to start Jungle Jet Airlines, with a fleet of brand new 170 seat jets. Like Phil above, he doesn't expect pilots to buy endorsements, but because he is an astute business man, he does bond them for the cost of the training. What's more, he is a hard man, with a team of good lawyers who will see to it that anyone who skips on the bond, WILL pay up. He works his pilots to the max, back of clock flying, crew base is Cactus City, and no, you can't commute because you never get enough time off. He pays 40% more than Phil above.
Will Phil's pilots jump ship to fly jets with Mel? Even if Phil matches Mel's money?

[Stiff Under Carriage]

Friuty bat,

Good scenario, however after a bit of thought I seriously wouldn't, I'd stay with Phil I think. I'd rather be happy.

But, this is an extreme example, more closely relate the living conditions, and yes I probably would jump ship.

Bonding is not unreasonable, but your normal working environment should be worth the 2 yr stay etc. Pay, condition and everything else.

SUC

[Counter-rotation]

Well I was about to join the union (honestly!), but I think I'll send them an email instead to explain that now I need to save up for an endoresement... :yuk: :*

CR.

[bjm367-80]

yes... .coz at the end of the day, most pilots wants to fly larger aircraft....even if it end up making them unhappy later.......

[Ibol]

You're already bonded when U join Qf for 3 years.

Can't see why you won't pay for ur S/O endorsement in the very near future!

Gotta get the cost down to the company!!

Gotta maximise Geoff Dixon's share portfolio!!!

Can you feel the love in the room!!!

[OPSH24]

If all of this had happened 15 years ago, I would have studied harder at Uni.:*


We can only hope that either supply dries up or the IRC sorts some of this out - its a complete mess.

First, please pay for your endorsement, then - "well you wear it" pay for your uniform, then "well you eat it" - pay for your catering, then "you burn it" - you and pay for the flight fuel - WHEN WILL IT STOP.

We are part of the team that keeps the company going, no different to a bag snatcher, accountant or CEO.

Everyone is here to do a job and do their best.

The difference is that we are not unskilled workers but have spend time and money gaining the skills and experience to keep their million dollars investments, full of freight and passengers, flying A to B safely and efficiently. We expect reasonable pay and conditions and appreciation of our skills and contributions. Not much to ask and nothing that other employees don't get.

Do not pay for your endorsement, no not become part of the problem. A bond is reasonable and is part of your commitment to the empolyer, paying for your endorsement shows no commitment to the company, just that you already have $$$$.

It will not work in the long run. It will bite these companies in the end.

Again, please think before buying your endorsement, when no one does, they will drop this ridiculous policy.

Rant over

[captwawa]

I did hear some promising news a few days ago re QL recruiting. Apparently recruiting at QL has almost come to a stand still with only about one person per week going through the process. Rumour is that the up-front endo fee will be dropped in a couple of weeks. Those people stupid enough to fork out the cash and further degrade working conditions may not have had to pay if only they hung out a bit longer. Was it worth it stupid people? Not sure if AFAP pressure has done anything though. Anyone in the know?

[Super 64]

Last time I checked you were 'bonded' when you joined the ADF, something about a Return of Service Obligation.

[captwawa]

ROSO is actually an illegal concept that doesn't hold up in court. It is just a gentelman's agreement. Most of the qualified ADF pilots consider it a fair return for - Paid training, Average $80,000 PA salary over the term of the ROSO. It only applies after you get your wings (don't believe the fine print).

Super 64 I hope your not trying to compare the ADF to Paying $18,000 before you start training and no guarantee of a job where the average salary PA would be closer to $50,000 if you ever get a command. Not only that, but you are also qualified to start with, unlike with the ADF where you are trained from scratch.

The other big difference at the moment is that people haven't stopped applying to the ADF!

[Captain Sand Dune]

ROSO is actually an illegal concept that doesn't hold up in court

True - but don't try it!!:eek:

[jb05]

the whole thing starts at a grass roots level people, while ever there are pilots willing to fly for bugger all or nothin, operators are going to capitalise on this. it starts just after your cpl with skydiver driving and joyflight operators and before u know it u are paying to fly a cheiftan for the skydivers and then paying for your dash 8 ticket.this is insane.if Kmart could get people to work there for nothing of course they would,and if they could get them to pay for there training they would do that too.i recently turned my back on jumper dumping when i found out what they were getting paid($40-$50 a load) compared with my $100 a day.some guys wer making $400 to my $100.i dont care about a career in the airlines and just do it for extra money and cause i like to fly,but its a bit rich when they tell you that they have the responsibility and not u.they have 2 lives to worry about in free fall and under canopy for about 4 minutes,last time i checked i had 6 lives to worry about if the noise stops and ive got them with me for 25 minutes (by the way your not popular if you miss the spot either).the solution is simple but hard to implement,all pilots at all levels must stop allowing themselves to used as slave labor and if the operators cant get anyone to do it for cheap or nothing then they have no choice but to pay decent money, but while ever there are a couple of weak willed individuals out there who succumb this is but a dream!

[Howard Hughes]

last time i checked i had 6 lives to worry about if the noise stops and ive got them with me for 25 minutes

No you don't!! Anything goes wrong and they will be out of there baby, you on the other hand must fight the aircraft to the smoking hole in the ground....Or on the other hand you could follow them out the door!!

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

[jb05]

ever heard of engine failure after take off? i'd love to see the caos if it stopped at 100ft-NOT!dare i say they won't be making a timely escape and will be completely reliant on said slave labourers judgement.an engineer friend told me that if u shake a tree a dozen pilots fall out hence the need not to pay them.i usually find its the dead or rotten fruit that falls out when u do this,and if the engine stops at any time i bet they all wish they had paid for quality fruit! By the way, would'nt you be a tad unpopular with the aircraft owner for bailing out over something as trivial as a forced landing!i don't think any of these clowns truly appreciate the pressure we are under or our worth.i like your style though

[Howard Hughes]

ever heard of engine failure after take off?

Yeh you got me there JB, but the'll probably only hang around till 1000ft or about 2 minutes, so the other 23 minutes, you'll still be on your own!!

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

[jb05]

23 minutes on my own after an engine failure at 1000ft,i'd like to be in your c206,its got one hell of a good glide one it.but where getting off the point a bit here, i just reckon we burn all operators at the stake if the keep making guys pay for their checkouts of working for f@#k all