3 Group For The Chop?

[BigginAgain]

There have been various suggestions that the existing organisation of HQ STC and the 3 Groups is no longer required. A little bird tells me that HQ 3 Gp is about to bite the dust. The stations and organisations under 3 Gp will presumably be divided between 1 Gp, 2 Gp and HQ STC.

Anyone confirm or provide more details?

Anyone have any views?

I bet there won't be any reduction in the number of air marshls!

[SASless]

At what point do you no longer have an Air Force....but merely an air operation, air wing, or aviation section?:(

[tablet_eraser]

Given that ther RAF's traditional structure was based upon the Cavalry (courtesy of the Royal Flying Corps), convention dictates that its nomenclature should be the same as that of our green-suited cousins. In that case, a force or army group should consist of 45,000 or more men, and a corps should consist of 20,000 to 45,000 men. A little tenuous, I suppose, but that's one viewpoint.

"Royal Air Corps", anyone? Apparently we get mistaken for the RAC anyway, so why not change it!?

[soddim]

I guess one way of answering SASless' question is that we no longer have an air force when we have to rely on others to enable us to function.

In that sense we no longer have an air force.

Thank God for Uncle Sam.

[pr00ne]

soddim,

If that is your definition we have not had an Air Force for about half a century!

SASless,

It may be suffering right now, but there are only one or two bigger, one or two more capable, and arguably only one that is both.

[Pontius Navigator]

Demise of 3 Group. Yes, it is all true and I think will be part of the PTC merger with STC when PTC moves to HW.

That enough words for Prune?

[ZH875]

If 3 Group gets the chop, I wonder what their airships will invent to keep themselves in a job (RAFG dissapeared and HQLC appeared). Maybe it will be RAF Waddington Command and RAF Brize Norton Command (neatly doubling their airships appointments in one stroke of the pen),

[JessTheDog]

The functional basis of the group structure makes little sense. Why not have a "home" group and an "away" group for UK and OOA respectively?

[DICKY the PIG]

With reference to "home group" and "away group", if a fighter jock bags a kill whilst part of the "away group" does it count as double in the event of a draw? :ok:

[Safety_Helmut]

DtP

Only if extra time is required.

SH

[16 blades]

On that basis, we should be taking penalties in Iraq by now.......

16B

[soddim]

Pr00ne,

Half a century ago we had enough operational aircraft in every role - and all of them British - to take on anybody in the World on our own (except Uncle Sam and Russia).

Now we couldn't even take on the French without outside help!

[I_stood_in_the_door]

Regards the penalties.....

If we win the cuppppppp, do we get to fly square flags or triangular ones?

Theres life in the old dog yet.

LFOGOOTFW

:}

ISITD

[pr00ne]

Soddim,

Half a Century ago; our front line fighter in RAFG was an American designed Canadian built jet gifted to us by the USA, our only nuclear capable bomber was an American piston engined bomber, the only nuclear capable forces in the UK were US owned and controlled bombers nesting on East Anglian and Lincolnshire airfields and the frontline night fighter was a Meteor!..............but I take your point!!

Still think the RAF is up there with the best when it comes to capability, sure we lack some capability, CSAR, SEAD etc etc but hasn’t it always been the case? We had no agile air superiority fighter for decades when they were common in NATO and the potential foe, the rather simplistic example I quote above of Mig 15 versus Meteor and Venom is another example.

We could no more take on the French than they could take us on, but that’s not why we have an Air Force is it?

[cyrus]

pr00ne,

I agree that the RAF is still high quality but quantity has a quality all of its' own and our numbers just do not add up to an air force, unfortunately.

Next time "the few" might not get away with mere skill and cunning because modern weapons defer to neither. Young Mohammed in his Russian/French/Chinese/American automated fly-by-money fighter has a very good chance of winning and Cpl Al Nazry with his oil-funded SAM will rot your wings off.

Capability in the future will be more about funding than ability.

[soddim]

pr00ne,

I may have been just a few years out but, when I joined the RAF in 1959, we had Hunters, Meteors, Javelins, Canberras, all 3xV-bombers either in-service or about to enter, Shackletons and the Lightning entering service. The numbers of aircraft available for war would make today's force look more like a Wing and the number of operational bases in UK and around the World gave a generous degree of redundancy.

OK, let's joke about the individual capability of each weapons system but they were state of the art in their time and they constituted a formidable force in the World.

Today we have such a piddling little capability that we can't even get our boats back from Iran.

[pr00ne]

soddim,

I take your point and agree with most of what you say, I was just being a little light hearted and picky in my response to your original mail and the dates.

On Iran and boats, would we have done ANYTHING different over the last 50 years? I doubt it. We have a highly capable RAF and though it is clearly far smaller than the one you and I joined we are looking at a very different world situation where a huge air force with hundreds and hundreds of shiny new jets just isn't needed any more.

cyrus,

Young Mohammed?

Who the hell is that? The threat today does nOT come from ANY fast jets, have you noticed what the armed forces have been up to lately?

[cyrus]

pr00ne,

Young Mohammed (Pakistani tribe) has just been given an F-16 - what he does with it in the future might not be to our liking and it may yet carry a tactical nuke.

Young Mohammed (Saudi tribe) is already operational on F-15C and S and we will try to get his brother checked out on Typhoon.

Goodness only knows how Young Mohammed (Iranian) is getting on - there has not been a lot of int from there since the Russians and Chinese started supplying all their aircraft. Rumour has it that his fighter will be nuke-capable any day now.

As for Mohammed's brothers in Syria, doubt if they would join us in the next coalition - more likely they will oppose us.

Yes, it is a popular theory at the moment that just because the Iraqis offered no effective air force against the coalition in both Gulf conflicts, the next war will be the same.

Very dangerous school of thought.

If oil reaches $100 a barrel, the ME might once again be the scene of major conflict.

[Pontius Navigator]

A few years ago NATO realigned along it long souther border. One NATO topic was water wars. At least with the southern border we are not eyeball to eyeball and any real reach by tactical bombers needs an effective force extender.

Our bases may be sufficiently far back to be secure from a bomber attack but if we take bombs forward then we are moving into harms way.

[SASless]

Is the risk greater for nuclear war with the Iranians or between the differing parties within the region that we have to worry about?

If India and Pakistan square off at one another again...with their new capability...how does that play out in our strategic planning? Which side do we back...or do we take on both sides? With our presence in the ME which comes as a mixed blessing...it is good to have bases and forces there...but then it also puts them at risk to attack...even if the attack is not directed at us but hits us...what will we do?

If it comes to nuclear war...do we need a large fancy air force...or just a very capable small force?

What if it remains a mud moving exercise and lots of ground troops which we do not have....then what?

At what point will the Western world go to war over oil supplies at a reasonable price? Oil can be a weapon as much as a resource can it not?

How do the Russians play into this equation? Can we modernize the Russian oil production infrastructure and build a pipeline network to Europe and offset the importance of ME oil to Europe?

[pr00ne]

Cyrus,

What’s all this tribe nonsense? tell you what, how about, to paraphrase your rhetoric; Young Mohammed (UK tribe) in his new Typhoon or his Tornado GR4, or how about Young Mohammed (US tribe) in his FA-22?

Racist nonsense………………………………………..

If your strange terminology refers to Islamic extremists then I think we are far more likely to suffer from the attentions of “Young Mohammed (3rd generation UK tribe)” walking into, for instance, WH Smiths or Burger King with explosives strapped to his body and pulling the wire, how are you going to stop that with a fleet of nice shiny new jets or warships?

SASless,

We don’t back any side if the Indians and Pakistanis go nuclear we simply help to pick up the pieces afterwards.

[Navaleye]

If your strange terminology refers to Islamic extremists then I think we are far more likely to suffer from the attentions of “Young Mohammed (3rd generation UK tribe)” walking into, for instance, WH Smiths or Burger King with explosives strapped to his body and pulling the wire, how are you going to stop that with a fleet of nice shiny new jets or warships?

Pr00ne is right. The enemy is already within, but we should take active measures to patrol our borders and ports and boot out the ecomomic migrants the are flowing here in increasing numbers. Nothing too radical, we should simply adopt the same approach as the US does to people turning up at its borders.

[Tourist]

Navaleye,
Trace your own family tree back a couple of hundred years and if you find a single immigrant amongst your ancesters I invite you to leave the country or shut up and stop being a reactionary racist ejit.
This country is strong because it has an amazingly diverse background, not in spite of it. We are a nation of mongrels, and should be very proud of it. Not all waves of immigration are all good in the first generation, but a hundred years later the outlook is often very different. You are becoming the pawn of rightwing, rable-rousing, low brow newspapers if you believe the problems britain has today are at the door of some people from chechnya etc with enough get up and go to find their way across the world to here. Start with the scroungers being supported by our DSS who are from this country.
Rant off

[cyrus]

There is no implied racism in talking about tribes - in all the ME countries there are many different tribes and they make the task of cohesive government (elected or unelected) more difficult.

Referring to Mohammed in giving an example of a pilot from Pakistan, Iran or Saudi is no more racist than talking about "young Harvey" referring to an American pilot.

As for the enemy within, I agree it is a major security problem but don't use air force money to solve it - the need for an effective air force does not vanish in the face of the terrorist threat.

People who make the mistake of weakening the armed forces for political gain and who think that the next conflict is going to be like the last are the biggest risk to our security.

[pr00ne]

Navaleye,

I don’t think economic migrants have anything to do with it! The very fundamental reasons that Islamic extremists feel so aggressive towards the west has to be examined and somehow dealt with, this is not a threat you can face down and defeat with a conventional military response. For those members of our indigenous population who feel sympathy towards Islamic fundamentalism and support or carry out acts of extremism, there is the law and it can and is used against them.

The fact that the UK is such a multi cultural society has to be a massive positive in our favour in meeting this challenge, quite apart from the benefits it has brought us as a nation.

[Navaleye]

Tourist, What I said was not racist, Just that this country is full and we are making it far too easy for people with hostile intent to enter. Why are people from the former Yuogoslavia still here? The war has been over for years. They need to contribute to their own societies far more than they need to to ours.

Pr00ne: I think we largely agree. I think we do benefit from having a multi cultural society in much the same way as America does, but there are limits.