Finnish Lappeenranta to become Ryanair's gate to Russia?

[pee]

Lappeenranta is a small Finnish town (just 60.000 inhabitants) beautifully situated on the shore of the country's biggest lake Saimaa, less then 30 km from the Russian border. Potentially a very attractive place for nature's lovers and perfect for water sports, the town and its airport could also became a strategic expansion point for Ryanair.
The carrier has recently expressed its interest in expanding the operations in Finland. This would include both additional connections from/to Tampere and some new flying destinations in the country. As a disappointment to some, Helsinki-Vantaa has already been excluded. At present, the most anticipated among several possible candidates has been the northern town of Oulu, serving as a starting point to Lappland. Somewhat as a surprise, Lappeenranta could be an other one destination. Its location on the Russian border and only some 200km from historical St. Petersburg, undoubtedly the most attractive city of Northern Europe, are pretty strong arguments. Some talks on that issue with Finnish aviation administration have already been held. The possible link would be the fist low-cost option to Russia for Westeners, but also a new gate to Western Europe for 5 million inhabitants of this Russia's second largest city.

[nickmanl]

Don't think we will ever see a non russian based low cost airline operating from the country, as I Russia isn't included in the European Union's open skies agreement.

[Dash-7 lover]

SO ARE WE CALLING IT ''ST PETERSBERG NORTH'' THEN !!

[Tom the Tenor]

The destination may have a certain Ryanair type usefulness in mid summer as the packed coached brings you on your way to St Peterburg for an extra 50 euro or so each way but you can forget about that plan in the midst of a dark and cold northern winter.

[pee]

Russia isn't included in the European Union's open skies agreement, right. That's why this small town on the FINNISH side of the border has good chances as an enter point. The distance from the LPP/EFLP airport (in EU-Finland) to St. Petersburg is by road 210 km, 2½ hours drive (+border crossing). There you can use coaches to transport people outside of the Union - to the center of St. Petersburg. It is pretty consistent with the habits of FR passengers - they have accepted somewhat longer travel from the airport to their destinations. And, well... You, as a passenger, could save so much money! Return flight LON - LED will cost you nowadays over £ 200 (am I right?), Ryanair could take you up to the Russian border for £ 60 or so. It is a difference for us, living in the West, it's even more so for Russians (average people are still very poor, but they just have to travel sometimes, no matter what the reason were). And indeed, no one will start real low-cost connections directly to Russia any time soon. But it only boosts chances of FR or anybody else who'll decide to be the first. The mentioned location of Lappeenranta is unique (St. Petersburg is so close). Even the new EU members like Poland or Hungary are still many hundreds of kilometers away from any bigger Russian town. And former Leningrad is the second biggest there. Got it?

[goldeneye]

Dont this will work for Russia, as all passengers travelling to Russia require a visa. And its quite a hasstle to get it.

Passport & Visa Info for Russia
The following details relate to holders of adult normal passports (requirements for children may be different), if any other type of passport or travel document is held, entry requirements should be checked with the relevant embassy or consulate

Passports
Required by all

Passport Validity: Passports must be valid 6 months after date of return

Visas
Required by all

Air Transit
Required by all except: 1) Persons remaining in the transit zone of Moscow Sheremetyevo Airport with an onward or connecting flight within 24 hours of arrival

Notes: Transit visas are required while travelling through Russia to Azerbaijan, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Moldova, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Ukraine & Uzbekistan. Transit visas are valid for maximum of 3 days

Taken from www.gazetteers.com

[jarino]

one alternative to Lappeenranta: Tallinn (capital of EU-member Estonia) is a 3.5 h drive away from St. Petersburg. Tallinn is served by two low cost carriers: EZY from Stansted and Berlin and Flynordic from Copenhagen and Stockholm.

There are some low cost operations from Germany to Russia:

DBA (formerly Germania Express) flies from Berlin, Düsseldorf and Munich to Moscow (DME)

German Wings recently announced that they will launch Berlin-Moscow in summer, after granting of traffic rights. May be it isn't that difficult getting traffic rights to Russia?

[nickmanl]

Sorry Pee, didn't read your comment correctly!

[pee]

Tallinn in Estonia, mentioned by Jarino, is a beautiful historical place itself, but still 363 km away from St. Petersburg (versus 210 km Lappeenranta). Now, the bus driver would have to respect a timetable made in accordance with the speed limits and it means 4½ hours non-stop drive, I'm afraid. I do believe some people from Russia travel to Tallinn nowadays to get to London with EZY, but it could not be a standard solution for everybody. In this regard Lappeenranta is really unique.
Concerning the low-cost direct connections to Russia, DBA/GEXX does it, but the tickets cost pretty much, starting from 244 euro return from Berlin. And 4U (germanwings) have still been unable to publish the timetables or start selling tickets, the Russian bureaucracy is really unbelievably tough, unfortunately.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Goldeneye has made the key point here (visas). For a non 'Summer Sun' type destination to succeed for UK locos, high volume short-breaks traffic is essential. A town of 60,000 inhabitants (and how many local hotel beds?) cannot support a high volume operation on it's own, and any border crossing into Russia brings strict visa criteria into play. One of Finland's principal attractions is it's wilderness appeal ... not good news for high volume short-breaks traffic. And Russia is a definite no-hoper for high volume city-breaks trade whilst visa restrictions render the country cumbersome and artificially expensive to visit. I'm sure Russia has good political reasons for keeping it's visa requirements, but it's tourist trade will always be a niche market whilst they remain in place. Competing destinations have price and convenience on their side.

[pee]

Well, Shed-on-a-Pole. Here in Finland LPP with its 60,000 inhabitants is not very small indeed. Do you know which city acts as a "residence of Santa Claus" accepting loads of tourists on scheduled and charter flights every year? That is Rovaniemi where live only 35,000 people, the tourists from around the world do not have big problems with their hotel bookings. Lappeenranta has also other cities in the vicinity and... not towns only. The length of Saimaa lake's coast-line is really hard to imagine, 14,850 km. Do you think these shores are empty? You can find many hotels, cottages and so on.
By the way, there are 13,710 islands on Saimaa alone.
Concerning Russia. They really should understand (for their own sake) that selling visas is much worse business then selling the tourist attractions. And they have them a lot there. For the time being they do just that, selling the visas, you should not have any troubles with obtaining them, e.g. in the UK it costs £30- for not less than 8 working days processing, handled by mail, or more ££'s for faster handling. Knowing Ryanair, they could even make some profit out of that as well. :8

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Sorry to say this pee, but you're beginning to sound like the Lappeenranta Marketing Director! I note your point about Rovaniemi and the 'Santaland' trade, but this is highly seasonal (concentrated into a single month with many clients travelling on a day-excursion basis). These trips are also very expensive by European travel standards and tend to be a 'once-in-a-lifetime' gift from Grandparents to their Grandchildren etc. They primarily travel to see the kids' faces as they "meet Santa"; the natural attractions of Northern Finland are just a pleasant bonus to them. And I would have to point out that Rovaniemi, well-known as it is, is not a high volume destination on a year-round basis. Lappeenranta, and it's doubtless very attractive environs, is simply unknown internationally and would require massive marketing efforts to fill regular Boeing 737 sized aircraft even at very low fares. You asked me if I think the region's shores are empty ... the answer is I don't know, I have no idea. But that is the very heart of the problem! If we who work within this wonderful aviation industry are not well acquainted with the attractions of your region, do you suppose that the general public will be? Before customers will aspire to visit a destination, they must first appreciate fully what it has to offer.

With regard to Russia, £30 per person visa charge is a significant disincentive for short-break travellers on a budget. Form-filling, then releasing one's passport for even a week (if clients actually realise how long the process will take anyway) represents a significant hassle for the type of impulse clients which locos need to attract. Most clients will tolerate this in return for six weeks in Australia, but not for three days in St Petersburg.

I respect and admire your desire to promote tourism to your region, and I don't doubt that it offers abundant natural beauty as you suggest. But airlines must seek profit-centres, not remote low-volume destinations which appeal to a niche market only. I must stand by my assertion that profit would be hard to come by for a UK loco serving Lapeenranta, and potentially more profitable destination airports will be pitching hard to attract their business.

[pee]

Just to be precise, Shed. I do NOT live in Lappeenranta, actually I've been there only twice in my life. If I wanted to travel with FR myself, I'd choose Tampere rather, not LPP. If I wanted to recommend the most beautiful place in the region of Saimaa, I'd choose Savonlinna, Mikkeli or Kuopio (there are convenient airports in all of these towns). My message is meant rather to envision the great potential hidden in that strange, but beautiful country neighbouring Finland. The potential you can find in Russia's historical places is really abundant and could be of interest for many (I do not believe that only beer drinkers :yuk: , 'adventure'-seekers :ouch: and alike would travel).
Even more of that potential lies in Russia's inhabitants themselves. We do not want too many Russian tourists in our shops, do we? Nevertheless they have already been recognized as pretty important customers in many markets and boutiques of, say, Helsinki, trade profits are rising. In spite of still unhealthy economy of Russia, the wealth of its people will gradually increase. Some of them are rich already, many more will look at cheapest-possible option to see some Europe, I bet they will.
Sure it wouldn't be enough just to open a new connection to LPP and hope everything would run smoothly. You'd have to make all that organizing and marketing effort - you could see the interest in doing that or not. FR has been considering those possibilities for over a year now, to my knowledge the decisions haven't been made yet. But to be clear: only big players like them could consider this. Small ones would almost certainly fail. From the same reason as you mentioned. People should be convinced (by those greats, not myself): why should I travel, does it pay to apply for a visa, and so on.

[pee]

As a comment to the discussion above, let me cite the article I've found on the Internet today. The Moscow Times writes (in English, fortunately):
"To talk of a transportation Iron Curtain might be an exaggeration, but Russia is definitely barren territory when it comes to low-cost airlines. Taxes on more efficient Western aircraft put the low-cost business model beyond the means of Russian airlines, while highly regulated international routes mean the country is simply closed to Europe's discount carriers."
"Russia doesn't yet see the aviation industry as an intrinsic part of its economy. It sees it as an economy all of its own."
"(The) international treaties dictate exactly which airlines can fly to which airports and how often."
"Other pieces of the low-cost puzzle missing from Russia include a lack of alternative airports with the infrastructure to deal with high-volume modern carriers."

More in the article (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2005/03/30/045.html).

[luoto]

would be very nice generally... Blue1/Golden is not making that much inroad yet, but all is welcome.

The internal fares KOK/VAA HEL and similar can be a little oppresive, even with the special offers they make. I know the arguments and reasons why the change won't happen.

Mind you, many local business agencies and councils spend more time worrying whether a train station has their name on it (shame on you Jakobstad) or getting pissy to its neighbours or trying to renegotiate terms for the city director when their "pet candidate" wasn't elected than to focus on more important development matters (as the tax payers of Jakobstad recently saw their wise city fathers spend time and energy on.. Much to the humour of many in the South and to some of those who might make more investments into the area.

But that has nothing to do with aviation so I will be quiet..

[jabird]

Goldeneye,

I think of one particular film related reason why people might want to visit LED:O

But let's face it, there are too many obstacles to make this work at the moment. I'd love to visit St Petersburg myself, and I'm sure getting there through Finland would be an interesting way to do it, but there are numerous other places in Europe which are:

a) Much easier to get to using existing flights
b) Not so ridden in crime, and
c) A lot warmer!

FR will have too many other priorities, but I'm sure they are sending out scouts looking at places to launch flights to anything upto 5, or perhaps even 10 years ahead. With all those new 738's rolling off the production lines, there have to be certain far flung corners of Europe which they will try and get too, if the usual charges are nice and low.

[pee]

We still didn't reach any consensus on the matter how many people would be interested in flying with 'no-frills' to St. Petersburg. And everybody tended to see just US travelling THERE. But we have had a very scanty picture of the numbers of potential passengers FROM Russia who would be using low-costs to get TO the Western Europe. The scale of such connections could be immense. Last year, LED alone (Pulkovo) did handle 4.3 million passengers, without any low-cost connections to/from there. And many airlines do have many reasons NOT to use Pulkovo as its base. At the beginning of the spring-summer schedule, the airport increased a number of fees for ground servicing of aircraft. It angered large numbers of foreigner carriers flying into LED. They state that certain services at Pulkovo are more expensive than at Europe's largest airports. ¡°De-icing is five times cheaper in Paris that in St. Petersburg,¡± a spokesman for one of the companies said. So, while even the tradititional carriers are unhappy with the situation in Russia, LED and alike will stay a 'no-enter zone' for no-frills in many years to come. But it only magnifies the significance (and chances) of some potential enter-points like the mentioned Finnish Lappeenranta.

[pee]

FR claimed recently that their several routes to Poland are becoming an imminent success. Polish workers and English tourists travelling both ways. However, Poland is already the EU member, Russia is NOT becoming one. As Goldeneye noticed:all passengers travelling to Russia require a visa. And its quite a hasstle to get it Hence, is it really too distant perspective for FR to plan some enter points to Russia, like the mentioned Finnish Lappeenranta? Certainly, it could be so. But anyway, all attempts to anticipate Russia's future moves tend to prove very demanding usually.
Just recently there has been reports (RBCdaily) that Russia's government is preparing some very significant changes in their visa policies to improve still insubstantial flow of European tourists to Russian cities. It could actually mean letting tourists in (rather than selling visas). And as they have in Russia numerous tourist attractions (not only in St. Petersburg indeed), the list of popular travel directions in Europe would need to be adjusted.
Meanwhile FR start testing Rzeszów in Poland as the enter point to... nowhere(???) - well, there are mountains with well-preserved nature and there is Ukraine nearby. We'll see...

[WHBM]

Well I'm probably one of the few other PPRuNers to have been to Lappeenranta. Mrs WHBM :) was at university there a while ago, but comes from St Petersburg. I've flown into there with Golden Air on their Saab 340 (big runway, little terminal), and I've even had lost baggage there (35 minute connection at Helsinki from London; it came on the next flight and the handling agent drove the bag over over to my hotel personally in his car later that evening, on his way home). Even looked at renting a PA-28 from the flying club there for a jolly. Oh, and I go into St Petersburg from London a couple of times a year.

Yes there is a huge demand for Ryanair FROM St Petersburg. There are friends of the aforementioned Mrs WHBM :) who are going by bus from St Petersburg to Tampere (takes a day each way) to get on Ryanair for London or Hahn. There are also plenty of Russians who go to Helsinki to get holiday IT charters and other flights.

Lappeenranta is right on the border, as you realise by the various Russian-language roadsigns about town. And it has that runway. Main business is a huge paper and pulp mill that actually imports much of its raw material from Russia nowadays (no tree-hugging environmentalists over there). Regular coaches run to St Pete, journey of about 3 hours.

It's always struck me Lap would make an ideal Ryanair point. Key destinations would be Skavsta for Stockholm, London, Beauvais for Paris, and somewhere in Germany, maybe Lubeck. St Petersburg must be the most underserved city of size (it's 5m population) in Europe for air service, far less than Moscow even. Low costs are not coming to St Petersburg Pulkovo airport any time soon, Lap is the next best thing. There would be quite a market for Russians Ryan-hopping round Europe, many of them seem to do this already through Britain, Sweden, France, etc.

Visas are not such a bad issue as many St Petersburgers have Finnish ones, and with Schengen if you are going to mainstream Europe you are covered for Finland. More problematical are the arrangements for independent foreigners going into Russia, but the Russians are looking very closely at Ukraine, which abolished visas (or most of the difficulty anyway) earlier this year and has seen a pleasing influx of visitors, especially Euro-spending ones.

St Petersburg is a city of absolute world-class tourist attractions, and if it really got going on the international tourist circuit they could make huge income.

[7006 fan]

Just to lighten things slightly...or not as the case maybe!

Were not CCCP the inventors of 'lo-cost travel'. One rate for buses, trains, planes regardless of distance (if you could get a seat!?!) if my understanding is correct. But that was really bad and not reflective of a 'market economy' in the economically developed West, so we promised the earth and broke the wall down, and now they are worried that they will become the 'dump zone' for all the industry the 'cultivated West' does not want!

Mind you, it would be fun watching the 'football shirted' one's trying to enter a drinking competition with the locals

;) :) :D

result
:yuk:
:ok:

[barry lloyd]

7006 fan:
Yes, and if you're a Russian you still pay much less than a Westener where travel is concerned. They still pay about 30% of the going rate for a former Soviet hotel, eg the Rossiya in Moscow. They also pay much less for domestic and international travel on Russian-based carriers. Some would argue that in both cases that's all they're worth.:)
With regard to the visa situation, the great fear (as I understand it), is that if Russia eliminates the visa requirement for EU nationals, there will have to be a reciprocation, thus raising the spectre of the EU being flooded with a significant criminal element. Most Chechens carry Russian passports - think about it.(btw - for those of you who might think it's flooded already - you ain't seen nothin' yet!)
This is precisely what happened with Albania.
On the plus side there would presumably be a significant inflow of beautiful Russian women too!

[pee]

September 29,

Russia and the European Union could sign an agreement on simplifying visa regulations at an October summit in London*, the British Ambassador to Russia Tony Brenton said Thursday. The ambassador said that every effort was being made to make sure the document was signed, but added that Russia and the EU had so far failed to iron out all the details.

Russia's envoy to London, Yury Fedotov, said Wednesday the planned agreement was only a step toward a visa-free regime.

"If this is done, it will be an important and easy-to-understand result of the summit because it [the simplification of visa regulations] affects interests of millions," the diplomat said.

But the signing of this agreement "does not remove the strategic task of achieving visa-free regulations between Russia and the EU."
___________
* October 4th

[Jinkster]

hmm lapland - can anyone see MOL in a red hat :hmm:

[pee]

Well, FR still doesn't fly to any town close to St. Petersburg. Did MOL forget about the potential associated with the multi-million population of Western Russia and its historical towns? Well, not at all. But there are some hints FR might think about changing its attitude and flying... directly to some Russian destinations.
Ryanair eyes Russia and other medium-haul routes as bilateral agreements expand European cabotage zone
By Kerry Ezard
Irish budget carrier Ryanair will consider adding destinations in Russia to its network if the country enters a bilateral air services agreement with the European Union (EU).
St Petersburg and other Russian cities would be a “natural extension” to the carrier’s network, Ryanair director of new route development Bernard Berger said yesterday at the World Low-Cost Airlines Congress in London.
“If Russia becomes available, there are many possible destinations [for Ryanair],” says Berger, adding that any future foray into the Russian market for the carrier “would depend on airport costs”.
13/09/06
Source: Flightglobal.com
Well, it's in fact the first time FR's representative hints officially about Russia. How likely the agreements are? Let's observe the situation.

[pee]

Sorry for reviving a VERY old thread (started in 2005), Ryanair already fly to Lappeenranta anyway. However, my new message is not necessarily about Lappeenranta and may relate to any other European airline.

Last Monday the Finnish and Russian Transport Ministers have signed a protocol amending the air services agreement between Finland and Russia. The protocol significantly liberalises air transport services between the two countries. According to the press release (http://www.valtioneuvosto.fi/ajankohtaista/tiedotteet/tiedote/en.jsp?oid=338300) of the Finnish Ministry of Transport and Communications:With the amendment, the concept of a national airline is removed from the air services agreement. In the future an undertaking operating air services between Russia and Finland does not need to be in Finnish ownership. It is enough that the airline is established in Finland and has an Operating Licence and Air Operator Certificate issued in accordance with local regulations.

As a result of a ruling by the European Court of Justice, bilateral air service agreements between EU Member States and Russia must be renegotiated with respect to certain parts.

In December 2010, a decision was taken that these negotiations would commence between Finland and Russia. The protocol that was now signed makes Finland the first country with which Russia has revised the agreement. This agreement can also be used as a basis for negotiations between Russia and other EU countries.

The amendment enables the designation of more than one airline on a route between two cities. In addition, it removes obligatory commercial agreements between airlines.

'I am pleased that the protocol amending the air services agreement has finally been signed. The revised agreement enables more diverse flight connections from Finland to Russia and vice versa. I believe that in the future this will benefit the consumers', Minister of Transport Ms Merja Kyllönen says.
Just pondering the significance of that document. Could it be a kind of loophole giving low-cost carriers an opportunity to enter Russia via Finland? Like Ryanair via Tampere or Norwegian [and others] via Helsinki to St. Petersburg, Moscow or anywhere else? Ryanair do not sell connecting flights, it's their strategy, but some other LCC's do it. Are there still many hurdles to overcome or is it just a question of direct negotiations between the airlines and Russian airports? So vast market out there... What's your opinion?

[ara01jbb]

It is enough that the airline is established in Finland and has an Operating Licence and Air Operator Certificate issued in accordance with local regulations.

Sounds more like an opportunity for FlyBe Nordic...

[davidjohnson6]

pee - I thought that Brussels had a *very* strong preference for deals like this to be negotiated purely at an EU level, rather than at individual country level. Would this have any impact here ?

[pee]

Yeah, originally it's been a local deal tailored just for Finland and our Eastern neighbours. Brussels wanted it to be altered to concern the entire European Union, so that everybody who wants to fly from the territory of Finland to Russia had the same conditions/ rules (all EU registered airlines). The deal has been ammended according to this. Now, what obstacles still exist, has to be clarified. Will it be possible just to negotiate directly with, say, Novosibirsk airport and without any further permissions start flying there (from HEL, TMP, OUL and so on), I'm not sure.

[eu01]

It is enough that the airline is established in FinlandBy creating something like "Ryanair Finland"? No way, they'll not do it. Otherwise, "Established in Finland" = "Flying to Finland"? Probably not enough.

[Falconson]

Hello everybody!


Was very pleasant to find such topic about Ryanair from LPP made in 2005 comparing with 2010 when Ryanair started flying.Thats really works!

Morever, im located in LED and have a transport company which deliver Russian passenegers from LEd to LPP by my buses and back. 90% of my clients are Russians travelling to Europe, 10% are Westerns coming to LED.

The demand is very strong and i feel that someday visas can be canceled for EU citizens but i wont discuss it as 2 much time can be spent for this.

The main reason why im here is that i wish to make seasonal charters for the first time and regular ones from LPP to the Barcelona as thats the most popular city for Russians here. I have a sponsor who can invest and need an airline which can offer a cargo for these aims.

Specialists are always welcome. We can discuss all detailes of the work. You can send prv message.

Cyril Sokolov

[pee]

@Falconson

Hi, Cyril.

To make things clear, I'm not the employee of Ryanair. My knowledge is related to some local sources - not even directly located in LPP as I live elsewhere in Finland.
I'll make some comments, though.
> The demand is very strong.
Indeed, it seems to be strong, but as you write...
> 90% of my clients are Russians travelling to Europe, 10% are Westerns coming to LED.
...and it's the result of the fact Ryanair do not even hint Lappeenranta as their "gate to Russia", as stated in the title of this thread and do not mention St. Petersburg. Whatever the reason, they don't advertise that in such way (elsewhere the airports' proximity to big centres is being emphasized, here not). There is no information about any bus connections LPP <-> LED on FR site either.
> That really works!
Well, it does, despite the very restrained attitude of Ryanair. But to my knowledge, there are no new routes coming to LPP regardless of the potential it has. Why? Mainly because Ryanair wants a couple-euro-per-pax marketing support from the town of Lappeenranta. It probably won't happen, because so many travellers, like your customers, just don't need Lappenranta town for their European travels. They need just LPP airport and Ryanair, nothing else, their money will not return to commune of Lappeenranta. As simple as that. Now back to Ryanair. They are obviously the party that could gain the most from this exceptional location of LPP. In their thinking there is, however, one main obstacle. No support, no routes. In other words, no 2 euro per pax, nothing will happen. In that case it looks like a very unreasonable self-limiting rule. You write
> Barcelona thats the most popular city for Russians here.
It possibly means, that Ryanair could try to sell tickets LPP - BCN or LPP - GRO with profit from the very beginning without the couple-euro-per-pax extra. Yeah, but here we go again: no support, no routes. Needless to say, they could sell bus tickets of the enterprise like yours getting the 2 €/ pax this way, but aren't active in that regard.

Having said this, keep trying in getting the attention, the potential is there, I'm sure.

Anyway, what would the Russian authorities say if someone tried to advertise LPP as St. Petersburg-West? Can you anticipate? :rolleyes:

...

[eu01]

Falconson, you should try to contact Wizzair, it is even more experienced in Eastern Europe than Ryanair. I suppose LPP could fit their profile and to BCN they already fly. Theoretically they could use Poland- or Hungary- based planes with flight patterns like that:Day 1: KTW (or WAW or BUD) - LPP - BCN - KTW
Day 2: KTW - BCN - LPP - KTW
Travelling from LED to WAW, BUD or KTW "Krakow West" isn't cheap either, so such kind of routes could also work well.