ICUS with Johnston Aviation

[DeltaSix]

To all CPL thinking of doing ICUS with Johnston Aviation in PMQ, I have bad news.

They have lost the freight contract to someone else unfortunately. Johnston is a good operator and been a big help to a lot of pilots wanting experience in a freight charter operation and I am a bit sad that their ICUS from YSBK to Taree and PMQ will probably cease as earlry as April or July since they have bookings until July.

Apparently, they have lost it to an operator that flies the S.E. Caravan.

So, it's a bit of a disappointment since I flew with them 4 years ago as ICUS and I know J.A. is a good operator if not the best.

Jaime, sorry to hear that mate.

DeltaSix

[Spinnerhead]

Is this the start of something big?
Are the piston twins finally going the way of the HQ Holden i.e. notoriously unreliable, heavy on maintenance, but full of nostagia!

[VH-TEACH]

If Delta six is correct and this does happen, is there anyone else doing something similar?

:}

[DeltaSix]

Jet A_ok, nah its a different mob. Apparently, its Cirrus Aviation.


VH-Teach - I'm not aware of anyone offering ICUS at this time out of Bankstown. As far as I know CASA wont allow it anymore.


D6

[DeltaSix]

Let me re-phrase it. I think its the former Cirrus Aviation mob. I dont know what they're called now.

D6

[kahuna]

******** will be taking over this run as well as others operating caravans.

J**craft will be taking over this run as well as others operating caravans.

[fledermouse]

How can J**craft do these runs if they don't have the aircraft and/or that type on there AoC?

What other runs are they going to be doing?

[Horatio Leafblower]

There are currently no freight charter AOC's with a Van authorised. In fact, there are only 6 freight charter AOCs on the CASA website.

"Son of Cirrus", Direct Air Services, is authorised only for PA-31 ops. The other AOC they bought (Valley Air Charter) no longer appears on the CASA database although it previously was listed as belonging to DAS.





:{

[Going Nowhere]

How can J**craft do these runs if they don't have the aircraft and/or that type on there AoC?

C208B VH-UZB was registered to J**craft on 05/03/05

[neville_nobody]

Good to see that GA is moving forward with new technology. C208's kill piston twins head to head with payload. In the US fedex have been running them for 20 years as night freighters so it's about time that Australia catches up.

[DeltaSix]

Kahuna is correct. I've confirmed it, it's J**craft with the caravan.
The guy who is operating it is from the old Cirrus Aviation.

Going nowhere is probably spot on too with the rego.

If this will be the trend, will the piston twins be considered Jurassic in the freight game ?

But, its just a war between who has the lower overheads.

Don't know though if the decision was based on under cutting JA or an inside job but in any case, let's see how long they last.


D6

[DeltaSix]

Not sure JetA_ok. As far as I know the guy who is operating it now is from the old Cirrus Aviation but it doesnt mean they were bought, It could just be a change of management.

I agree, it would be based on the payload meaning more freight
in one run meaning more income for the freight company although the cost will probably be a bit little more or even the same.

[SsaKcaj]

Horatio,

when you search the CASA website for freight operators, they are the freight ONLY operators. There are plenty of operators around with C208s on their AOC. If you have a general charter AOC you can do pax or freight.

From what I've heard the guy that used to run/(own?) Cirrus [circus] by the name of Tom D (is all I can say) is ops manager at Jetcr@ft.

A brand new US$ 1.5M C208B doing regular freight work will blow a PA31 or any other 20 year old piston twin out of the water (including financing). They are cheaper to operate can carry literally twice as much on a shortish leg (up to 1.5 hrs), and are less than 10kts slower than a PA31 (which would only make a couple of minutes difference).

Problem is, you log it in the single column!

Why is everyone so sad to see the paid ICUS at Johnsons go, it doesn't have a place in this industry anyway. If you try hard enough you can get ICUS without paying for it.

[newnewnew]

i think you should look over the figures on that one, sure the van is cheaper in some respecs, overall it is a deerer machine even though JJ owns his own maint. We all know JJ can afford one, so buy one mate!!
A great operator, one of few who can suck more piss than most of his students. He'll sort it out

[EngineOut]

newnewnew,

I think you will find that a van doing 1000hrs/yr will crap on a PA31 doing the same work financially, and the dispatch reliability will also be very very close to 100% (can't say that about a Chief).

Things like engines are just the start, sure turbines are more expensive to overhaul, but not when you look at it like this:

The PT6 on the C208 has a 5000hr TBO (and only one overhall to do), the TSIO 540s have about an 1800hr TBO (and there are 2 of them), and that is if you dont have any problems before they get to their life limit.

then prop overahuls 1 compared to 2 etc etc.

Jet A-1 is about 30c/L less than avgas

No gear cycles vs. hydraulic pumps/retractable gear etc.

Now, work out the cost to move a kilo of freight to say, Toll, compare 800kg to 1500kgs when the aircraft cost about the same to Charter! And there is also twice as much cubic room on the aircraft.

The folks at Cessna knew what they were doing. It was originally designed as a pure freighter for FedEx, the pax version was an after thought.

Just doesn't add up for the poor old twins

[She'l Be Rite]

sorry to say it guys but its been going on for a while, there have been caravans doing the bankstown runs since before xmas, they are justr a far superior and affordable machine and yes J*****aft do have UZB and it will be into operation within the next two weeks.. multi time is becoming a thing of the past, hopefully operators will understand this with high multi requirements making it very hard for young CPLs looking for work !!

[dasjab]

I think the caravan is a great freight aircraft, but I also believe the chieftain will be around for alot longer aswell. It is still going to take some convincing to the general public that a single can possibly be safer than a twin. As I have been involved with both the normal charter client nearly always takes the "twin engine aicraft" ???

[VH-TEACH]

Ok, so who is offering endoresments and ICUS in Caravans?:E

[dasjab]

Dr Oakenfold

I agree with you, the problem is most government companies and many charter clients require twin engine aircraft for passenger charter operatios. Therefore I believe that these types of aircraft will be around for a long time to come.

[EngineOut]

Statistically, you are more likely to have both engines fail in a piston than the single turbine (and the difference is quite a lot). I know that these are just statistics.

Pistons will become less and less popular as the fleet ages (more). Organisations that require twin engine aircraft are already moving towards requiring multi turbine aeroplanes (there are a few that have alreadymoved to this, and the rest will follow).

IMHO I believe an unpressurised turbine such as the Reims F406 (funny, it's called the 'Caravan II') will be the replacement for these old pistons. I have even seen a PA31 fitted with PT6s designated the "T-1040". The problem with the majority of twin turbine aircraft is that alot of the expense with running them is the maintenance associated with a pressurised hull.

The slight extra hourly cost of running unpressurised turbines is offset by the fact that they are significantly quicker and therefore require less hours over a given distance.

[Going Nowhere]

C208 VH-BSX was registered to HAZELTON INTERNATIONAL of Kempsey on 18/03/2005.

Not sure if this has something to do with it?

[VH-TEACH]

Wouldnt you think the government would allow people to operate single engine IFR charter in an aircraft like a Cirrus where it almost has the speedy performance of a PA31 but not the payload.

If the pilot or aircraft becomes incapacitated, then its a matter of deploying the chute.

[DeltaSix]

Engine out says : A Chieftain with a PT6 engine - the T-1040 --- this sounds like a terminator machine. Arnie the T-1000 and the female version is the TX machine. All turbines ?......:}

Seriously, would a twin turbine do a better job then ?

If so, anyone want to buy a twin turbine with me ?



D6

[sosouth]

A C208 cost what $1000000 and a PA31 $ 280000. At say 10% interest rate C208 $100000 and a PA31 $28000, a$72000 saving on the PA31. Over the average year flying of 400 hours $180 extra or 600 hours $120 an hour. Might be the same cost to run but you still have to pay the bank back unless you are a lucky person.

[EngineOut]

sosouth

a couple of points:

Finance is not 10% more like 7% for a van. You'll find the older the equipment the higher the interest rate, so a 25+ year old PA31 will attract a significantly higher interest rate than a young aircraft (and brand newies are the cheapest by far in this respect)

and

that's why I said 1000hrs a year (for most freight aircraft this is
fairly normal).

the difference is more like $50-$60/hr, which is easily made up in the significantly cheaper DOCs of the 208.

But you are still not comparing apples with apples. The 208 is a 1200-1500kg freighter or a 14 seat aircraft, the PA31 is about an 700-850kg freighter or 10 seat aircraft, yet the van is still cheaper and more reliable to operate.


D6
here ya go (http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=777187&WxsIERv=Cvcre%20CN-31G3-500%20G-1040&WdsYXMg=Hagvgyrq&QtODMg=Gnhcb%20%28GHB%20%2F%20AMNC%29&ERDLTkt=Arj%20Mrnynaq&ktODMp=Wnahnel%2025%2C%202005&BP=1&WNEb25u=Pbyva%20Uhagre&xsIERvdWdsY=MX-SCY&MgTUQtODMgKE=%28Nvejbex%20Ubyqvatf%20Ygq%29%20Gnkvat%20va%20 nsgre%20ynaqvat.%20%5BAvxba%20Q70%2C%20NS-F%20IE%20Mbbz-Avxxbe%2070-200zz%20s%2F2.8T%20RQ-VS%20yraf%5D&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=117&NEb25uZWxs=2005-02-13%2020%3A32%3A09&ODJ9dvCE=&O89Dcjdg=31G-8475001&static=yes&sok=JURER%20%20%28nvepensg_trarevp%20%3D%20%27Cvcre%20CN-31%20Aninwb%2FPuvrsgnva%2FZbwnir%2FPurlraar%27%20BE%20nvepen sg_trarevp%20%3D%20%27NVPFN%20CN-31%20Aninwb%2FPuvrsgnva%2FPurlraar%27%20BE%20nvepensg_trarev p%20%3D%20%27Puvaphy%20CN-N-31%20Aninwb%2FPuvrsgnva%2FPurlraar%27%20BE%20nvepensg_trarev p%20%3D%20%27Rzoenre%20RZO-820%20Aninwb%27%29%20NAQ%20%28ZNGPU%20%28nvepensg%2Cnveyvar% 2Ccynpr%2Ccubgb_qngr%2Cpbhagel%2Cerznex%2Ccubgbtencure%2Crzn vy%2Clrne%2Cert%2Cnvepensg_trarevp%2Cpa%2Cpbqr%29%20NTNVAFG% 20%28%27%2B%22G-1040%22%27%20VA%20OBBYRNA%20ZBQR%29%29%20%20BEQRE%20OL%20cub gb_vq%20QRFP&photo_nr=2&prev_id=777188&next_id=666817)

[dasjab]

The only decent caravan I have seen for 1M was at the Sydney Motor Home Show.

[bushy]

If you buy one for a million you will have a $400,000 engine overhaul coming up soon.

[DeltaSix]

Engine Out - that PA31 with a turbine engine, do we have one here in Oz ?

Cost wise, this will blow out the budget.

[SsaKcaj]

Bushy, i think you are about double what a PT6 overhaul would really cost, unless you don't look after the engine.

I believe the F406 has pretty reasonable running costs and you can pick up a late 80's/early 90s model for under $US900K.

Don't know much about to T-1040, there is not much info/experience around on running costs.

dasjab, you'll find you can get early to mid 90's 208s quite reasonably priced. The reason financing is usually so good on a 208 is that they hols their value extremely well.

I can't say this for F406, but it does bring the price down quickly if you can't afford to buy a new one!

Bring on these baby bizjets, they will change the scene of charter (hopefully).

The PA31 is a dead and buried machine and operators who hang on to them like they are the world's greatest aircraft will get left behind as governments and other regular charter clients demand turbines and take their business elsewhere.

GA in this country seems to be scared of the potential costs of turbines. You don't get this fear in the US or europe and it works well over there.

Pax love the turbines cause they are generally quicker for them than pistons to get from A to B(except for the van), and that is why they are flying in the first place!

[dasjab]

Come on Cruze Power I know you have a soft spot for the old chiefy !!! Come on fess up :E

[Jarule]

The answer is simple.
Aicraft utilisation!!

[bushy]

The caravan is a great aeroplane, and will have a long future. But let's stick to facts. I saw a pt6 overhaul (from the factory) about five years ago, and the cost was 250,000. It would be more now.
This engine had been operated by a small group of experienced pilots.
If you bought a caravan for one million dollars, there would be a reason why it was so cheap. And you would find out pretty soon.
What is the cost of a new caravan?
Utilisation certainly is necessary to keep costs down, and these aircraft are too big and costly for many areas of the outback, as the population and load factors are not there. The utilisation probably will not be either.
PC 12's only seem to be operated by government, or semi government, organisations, and I do not know of any TBM700 which is operating commercially in Australia. They have both been around for about ten years.
As a matter of interest, the worst accidents of recent times, have involved turbine powered aircraft.
They are great aircraft, but lets get realistic, and stop the sales talk.

[sosouth]

Engineout
If I can get $1 million dollars at 7% with no loan over my house or real estate and just on the plane I'm leaving Westpac. It wouldn't take much for me to leave Westpac anyway!
If I move on from the PA31 what aircraft would I get to replace it? A Chieftain at $350000 does a good job. Say i want to spend $700000 what will that buy me? An old worn out metro 3.
400 Hours is what a charter plane does. Freight might do 1000 hours but thats day and night work and you wear out your aircraft for nothing. The freight companies line that they will give you this run and that if you give a better price does not hold any weight with me. I will not join the long long list of companies that have gone down flying bank bags so Frieght companies and the Banks can make more money.
Like i tell them, if its so good work buy your own plane and fly it yourself.

[EngineOut]

sosouth,

I think you'll find near 1000 hrs a year is fairly normal for a freight aircraft (that was what I was talking about) and that is doing one run, not day and night. It is less than 4 hrs a day. I wouldn't call 1000hrs a year wearing out your aircraft, considering RPT aircraft do in the order of 2-3000 hrs per aircraft per year.

If you are only getting 400hrs a year, no wonder, utilisation is the key to any profitable aviation business as it greatly reduces your fixed costs. If you compare your fixed costs @ 400hrs p.a. with 1000 hr p.a., your fixed costs are a massive 60% less on 1000hrs p.a. than 400hr p.a.

There is actually contract freight work out there, unfortunately they are just few and far between.

As JetA_OK says, there are freight operators that are successful and these guys are the ones that actually do things properly. They keep their aircraft in good order, and most importantly actually employ their drivers full-time and pay the award. And because of this, their employees hang around and are not constantly looking for and out. I beleive this actually saves them a lot of money, and not trying to save $$ by simply not paying the award. It says alot.

Although I do agree with you with respect to the bank/freight forwarders being completely non-committal in terms of contracts. However it is just as much the fault of the companies undercutting the competition and making no money (eg Cirrus) and then dragging the others down with them just to stay afloat that has created this environment in the industry.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Cruze Power has enough soft spots for EVERYONE :E

[lazyeye]

JCraft all the best with the Caravans nice to see a step in the right direction.

Got to love those rumors!

[ilovemycessna]

Just getting back on the topic, when are JAS losing the SBK - PMQ run? Is it april, july or some other time?:{

[DeltaSix]

JAS' contract will finish in April. Thing is, they have a person or people booked for ICUS until July.