Re TC "Ingrid"

[tinpis]

The word is that seeing its from Queensland its bound to be a dud and wont work.


:}

[Capt Fathom]

QLD recognised it as a dud immediately. :E
That however, did not stop NT from claiming it! Will WA follow suit?

[gaunty]

Nah! we sent Willy packing too.

We have a buy WA policy across here.:cool:

[Arm out the window]

Ingrid, like all good tourists with names of similar origins, has headed off in pursuit of a big Willie...

[Windshear]

....... and Ingrid is saying to Willie the cheque is in the mail, see you about Friday night in Broome .... :p

[tinpis]

Planes and boats moved to shelter
By ALICE BURTON
14mar05

Airline charter companies at Darwin International Airport spent yesterday moving planes inside hangars.

Northern Air Charter sent half its fleet to Batchelor, about 80km south of Darwin, as part of its cyclone procedures.

NAC business development manager Hone Edwards said the company moved their aircraft out of the area in preparation for Ingrid.

"We have lots of our planes hangared in Darwin, but we've sent several aeroplanes to Batchelor," he said.

"We're also going down to Batchelor by road to pick up the pilots who flew them there and bring them back.

"We're constantly ringing the airport tower in regard to whether the airport will be closed.

"If the cyclone does come through, the terminals will be closed.

"We've got ourselves in readiness that if they do close the airport our planes are already in a safe place.

"We're also taking Power and Water out to Goulburn Island to help restore power in the area."

Meanwhile, the Darwin Port Corporation worked overtime to move boats to sheltered areas.

Harbourmaster Bruce Wilson said boats out at sea were moved into the harbour and secured as a safety precaution.

"We've stacked all the international and domestic containers ready for shipping," he said.

"We've secured all our main infrastructure, such as our pilot boat and container crane.

"All the port's tugs have been secured and we've put as many vessels and small craft into the Duck Pond.

"We've also secured barges in Hudson Creek and we've made sure that all the Indonesian fishing boats are secured safely in Blessers Creek near East Arm Wharf.

"We've also secured our facility with cyclone chains."

NT News (http://www.ntnews.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,7034,12536681%255E13569,00.html)

[topdrop]

I see Willy had a big eye.

[maxgrad]

YPTN actually looked like an airport. Had about 35 aircraft there last night

[Continental-520]

Yeah, ...and WHICH Darwin based company is the only company flying today in the midst of a cyclone to the North?

The only one stupid enough to. No prizes for guessing, but they were publicised for 'securing their fleet' away from it in this morning's paper, I believe.

But then again, who wrote the report...?

520.

[The Voice]

Continental .. if it was safe to do so, and the job was there, why for heavans sake, could it not be flown?

The airport isn't closed it it? The cyclone is north of Darwin and moving westerly, the winds from what I have seen are not astronomical .. makes sense to me to allow a flight if safety isn't being marginalised.

[Capt Claret]

Continental,

Did QF, VB & Skywest cancel their flights?

[CBD]

Few pics i took on cki after ingrid.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y48/cbd/housedestruction.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y48/cbd/SchoolsoutKiddies.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y48/cbd/Powerpole.jpg

P.s never Posted pics b4 hope it works!!

[Woomera]

Thanks and they did.

Re the power pole, it seems they don't make railway lines like they used to.:uhoh:

[tinpis]

It should be pointed out that the buildings substantially damaged or destroyed were apparently "built" to pre 1974 Tracy standards.
The later coded buildings held up well to 160 kt wind gusts.
No doubt we will now see a multi milllion dollar building program as we are in an election year :hmm:

W the poles are steel channel sections designed to withstand impacts of souped up hoon Commodores but bend in high winds.

[Continental-520]

I didn't think it would be necessary to explain this, but the worst weather is actually close to the eye of a cyclone.

NAC were operating flights on the day the cyclone was north of Darwin, to areas that are north of Darwin.

I haven't SAID that they have operated unsafely, but based on the FACTS, you can interpret it for yourself.


520.

[The Voice]

Contintental, you don't have to explain anything at all - particularly to those of us who live in the region.

But, again I ask, if safety isn't compromised, what is wrong with flying? Yes, the cyclone was to the NNW .. tracking W .. where abouts did the flight(s) go? Directly into the cyclone affected area or to the E, N/E, NNE ..

You have aimed a criticism not so much at the company, but at the ability of the PIC to make a decision that may cost the ultimate price .. but you also haven't stated all of the facts that you are obviously aware of .. unlike the rest of us who have read your post, slamming an operator that may have been flying emergency relief workers to one of the communities suffering cyclone damage.

[captwawa]

I'd have to agree with 520 on this one.

As we were moving our planes to TN on Sun, the approach controller even said to the NAC plane heading for GBI...and I quote...

"you must be either crazy or stupid"

The only other aircraft flying were Hardys to the south west, but even they got hammered coming into darwin later in the arvo.

I belive it was a new pilot at NAC flying that day, didn't recognise the voice.

I also think Hardys and Air Ngukurr took a big gamble with their fleet leaving them in Darwin. It luckily payed off looking back. I'd hate to be the pilots getting called in the middle of the night to fly the aircraft out in the forcast 120km/h winds.

Hairy stupid senario to get your pilots and planes in to save a few bucks.

[RENURPP]

Can I suggest you guys are just taking an opportunity to bag the oposition with no real substance.

Questions.
1 How close to a cyclone can one fly before it is considered unsafe?
2 When should one move their aircraft away from an area under cyclone warning?
3 What experience have you guys got making decisions regarding the above?
4 Have you ever been through a cyclone or are you just NT newbies?
Don't even start on Darwin ATC's comments re the above. What on earth would they know? An example of ATC's knowledge of aircraft was made very obvious to me at a chief pilot/ATC meeting a few years ago when I commented about getting late descent clearances. The answer from the senior ATC person present was that he doesn't understand why we need say 60nm to descent from 10,000 feet in a Bandit/C402/PA31 tyoe aircraft yet the jets who are much faster pass 10,000 ft at approx 30nm. Doesn't that say it all??
OR report sighting a C210 in your six o'clock!!
If you know he landed in winds exceeding the aircraft limitations, if you know he flew VFR in non VFR conditions or if you know he committed any other crime against humanity reort it the appropriate authorities otherwise you sound like whinging school girls.

[captwawa]

Ren,

I'd just like to answer some of your points.

Please keep in mind that during this period Ingrid was a Cat 5 (not since 100 years), so some level of caution or respect should have been shown. Talking to several people who lived through Tracy I found a common thread. Ingrid slowed and turned remarkably close to where Tracy turned toward Darwin. All these people were lulled into a false sence of security by the light local winds in Darwin before and suprised at the speed at which the wind picked up. Hardly enough time to drive from the shops to get home for some.

So regarding -

1. when your in a C310 at cruise and your ground speed indicates -ve 25km/h. Really, if you had the choice would you even want to fly in the vicinity?

2. In plenty of time before the cyclone could hit. The wind at DN was already gusting to 25kts at 1400hrs on Sun.

3. Well if the guys at the B.O.M. can't predict its path with their models and super computers then I would say experience has little to do with making these type of decisions. Just common sense. What would the insurance companies say to the insured when going for a claim for a damaged aircraft at DN when the area was under a cyclone warning. The specific warning even said that the wind WILL gust to 120km/h at Darwin in the evening of Sun (Even though later it didn't). What more do you need to know for risk assessment?

4. Yes in Carnarvon years ago.

[Capt Claret]

I'd be interested to know what the problem is flying in the vicinity of a cyclone.

Throughout Ingrid I was at Airlie Beach, checking the BOM site to see if Mrs Claret and our unit would be there when I got back, so I don't have any empirical experience of it.

However, in the past I've flown past/abeam cyclones. Invariably the Wx forecast has been something to the effect of "clockwise flow to 100 kts, within 100nm of cyclone centre". On all occasions the flight has been as smooth as silk, though the ground speed may not have been anything to brag about.

I have a work colleague who flew into the eye of a cyclone years ago in a bug-smasher, not believing the poor ground speed he was indicating. As best I can recall the flight was smooth enough, just slow.

This begs the question, what's wrong with flying in the vicinity of a cyclone? Prudence, and probably the TAF, would suggest an alternate should be carried. After that .....

[RENURPP]

Exactly Claret,

I flew within 40nm of Ingrid on two occasions and it was exactly as you indicated. we were clear of significant cloud and a bit of wind and maybe not in a bugsmasha but thats only a matter of speed.

Years ago we used to do a lot of work for power and water and they required to attend the sceen of bad weather including cyclones asap after. Thats were the damage was. I can't say I enjoyed it as it was normally at night, didn't have radar BUT we made it safe. Flying near bad wx including cyclones can be safe. If your groundspeed in a C310 towards the cyclone was only 25 kts, which I doubt, it would have been over 300 on the way home whats the problem if you have fuel???

It woould be prudent to move your aircraft prior to winds exceeding aircraft limits, that however is up to the owner to risk. I am sure they know what they risk.

[tinpis]

Never ceases to amaze me the amount of African Mahogany trees get toppled whenever we get a blow.
The council should at least clear them from public places.

One of the buildings knocked over on the islands was 80 years old
:sad:

[The Voice]

CapWawa,

with all due respect,

if the flight Contintental is referring to is the same one as you, then another fact comes to light.

If it was sunday and it was GBI, then that flight was very obviously one of need for that community. From what I could see on the BOM radar (I too was doing a Clarrie most of the day), Ingrid was busy settling down on top of Hectors home ground.

As for the comment made by the controller .. I wonder how long that controller has been in DN and just how much experience he/she has had. January/June are the months for transferring new ATC's around .. personally, I don't think that the comment should have been made, and again, who is the controller to criticise/comment on the judgement of the PIC and/or by inference, the company?

RENURPP,

I too have been flying in cyclonic weather, and apart from severely reducing the ground speed the flight itself was actually very ordinary.

Tinny,

the mahogany trees make fantastic cutting boards!! As far as the islands are concerned, I am amazed that anything was left standing anywhere over CKI way .. 320k winds .. astounding stuff, I really thought that everything would have lifted off.

[captwawa]

The C310 comment was supposed to be a Joke. Fair enough about flying in the vicinity - it's up to the PIC at the end of the day.

I heard that the wind speed recorded on the ground at CKI was 160km/h. One thing I did find interesting was watching how Ingrid grew out when down graded, and then tightened when back to cat 5. The eye must have been quite small.

[Ultralights]

that damage looks like a typical sydney storm on the north shore! :O

I have familiy living in Cairns, Qf and AN at the time still operated into cairns under a cyclone warning, i assume they continue to operate until the winds exceed limits. relatives have told me flights in and out of CNS have operated untill a a few hrs before the cyclone body hits. and begin again not long after it passes.

Strange how CNS only seams to suffer flood damage during cyclones, and areas thurther west (NT/WA) theres no shortage of footage of smashed houses and broken trees! something to do with a bloody big mountain range maybe!?

[OpsNormal]

Someone asked about the Wx on the day.....

This was the TAF for DN on monday morning when I arrived at work:

DARWIN (YPDN)
TAF AMD YPDN 132227Z 0024
10025G40KT 8000 SHOWERS OF RAIN SCT015 BKN025
TEMPO 0024 14030G45KT 1000 THUNDERSTORMS WITH RAIN BKN010 SCT020CB
T 26 27 28 28 Q 999 998 997 999
TTF SPECI YPDN 140032Z 10022KT 2000 SCT005 OVC100 25/24 Q998
RMK RF03.6/006.8
FM0050 10025G45KT 4000 SHOWERS OF RAIN SCT015 BKN025
TEMPO 0032/0332 14030G50KT 1000 THUNDERSTORMS WITH RAIN BKN010
SCT020CB
SPECI YPDN 140032Z 10022KT 2000 SCT005 OVC100 25/24 Q998
RMK RF03.6/006.8

(I'd cut and pasted it into another BB at the time).

From memory we had some pretty good winds and rain around 3am in DN, and the rain was still reasonably heavy (wipers were not quite keeping up while driving at 40km/h) while driving to work at 6am.

Moved many Power and Water crews about the Islands for the rest of last week. Garden Point and Snake Bay were only hit while Ingrid was a Cat 3, and there was a reasonable amount of damage there. Was talking to one of the GPT policemen while I was there (and at the BTI footy) and he said the freakiest thing was during the period of time that they were in the eye for about two hours. He said that while it was dead calm, you could see the wall of cloud (lit-up with lightning) rotating around them at a distance, and he said the continual distant roar of the cyclone during the calm of the eye was something difficult to explain.

Wawa, it was 160kts. She was still a Cat 5 as it traversed the Central Arnhem Coast with winds forecast to 300+km/h.

http://www.bom.gov.au/inside/services_policy/tc_ingrid/images/ingrid_operational_track_small.gif

160km/h? I'm told they were more like 190-240km/h. This pic shows what happened on Cobourg Pen. I noticed on Melville Is that it was the larger (more foliage) trees that seemed to be snapped-off a few feet above the ground, the smaller trees able to bend with the wind a lot better.

http://www.bom.gov.au/inside/services_policy/tc_ingrid/images/cobourg_leafless.gif

Read about it here..... http://www.bom.gov.au/inside/services_policy/tc_ingrid/index.shtml

Regards,

OpsN. ;)

[tinpis]

Well all I can say is hooray it didnt hit Darwin.

We gonna get hit one day tho and while most the buildings will be ok there is gonna be a helluva mess to clear up.

Tin is glad he has no munny and doesnt have a 60 foot boat in the duckpond or other toys to worry about.

:hmm:

[RENURPP]

Darwin required an alternate for 20 mins based on the TTF speci and 60 hlding the rest of the time??

The wind was straight down the guts, SO that looks reasonable for an IFR flight, the vis makes it a bit dodgy VFR.