Human Rights & haircuts

[Yozzer]

Although this thread may be perceived as a JO prank, I have served Her Majesty for loang enough to have earned my shilling many times over. Furthermore, I have reached that time in life when I am getting a little fed up of being told that I cannot take a vacation in Cuba or visit the Irish Republic without permission.

On similar lines, although I have no wish to see Ozzie Osborne replicas wearing HM uniform, I think that the restrictions on facial hair are a little over zealous in this tree hugging age. Can anybody see a situation were a goatie beard, full beard or a styled haircut would have any detrimental effect on service discipline. Particulary interested in hearing the views from our colonial cousins as to their restrictions on freedom of movement and personal grooming habits.

I appreciate that NISOPS are written for 4 young p155ed squadies in a Ford Fiesta finding themselves in the wrong street, but surely maturity could and should reap some benefits. In other words, as a long standing member of HM Forces, I think it about time that the British Citizen within be allowed to enjoy a LIFE!

[SpotterFC]

What part of the attestation or commissioning scroll says you're entitled to a life?

[Training Risky]

Dude, you should take a look at the hirsute fellas in the Navy. Just imagine wearing a set of the bodacious lambchops the SHAR mates wear!!:8

[Circuit Basher]

Having 3 times shaved off a beard for HM, I sympathise, Yozzer!

Thread title was a bit misleading as you appear to only be concerned regarding facial hair (there were some WAAFs in my days who would have maybe benefitted from some attention in this dept!!), not haircuts in general.

I believe the argument relating to facial hair has always been the sealing of oxygen / NBC masks being virtually non-existent with beards and I can see the logic in this. There is also the issue of tidiness of fungal growth - there are certain people who would look somewhat ridiculous with faial hair whilst others looks would be enhanced!

You could always use a bit of DTD585 (or whatever flavour of hydraulic oil takes your fancy) and inflict a bit of dermatitis on your face, thus avoiding the need to shave for around 6 months with a note from the SMO (although don't get caught doing it, otherwise you'll get charged for self harm under QRs!).

In all honesty, I think the current status quo is quite reasonable - having worked on some Belgian Army bases and seen the state of some of those conscripts of Wallonian extraction and b*m fluff beards, the banning of cultivated facial hair is conducive to good order and discipline (we don't talk about the RN!!)!

[airborne_artist]

Permission has to be sought to grow a set, and the wearer had (still?) to submit to an "inspection" after 28 days. Good growth, trimmed etc., then it stayed. If it looked as though it would blow away in a force 3 then it was ordered off.

[Zoom]

Yozzer
Goatees are for some shirt-lifters.
Full sets are for Fishhead shirt-lifters.
Styled haircuts are for the remaining shirt-lifters.

Just an opinion, but look at yourself in the mirror and then choose.

[lineslime]

I don't see the problem of a well maintained set of lambchops, they could be seen as a good anti-terrorism measure as short hair with burners to the middle of the ear is a bit of a give away.

On the subject of facial hair I remember a female SWO at Cosford who would have given Geoff Capes a run for his money, she was a little scarier as well.:E :E

[PileUp Officer]

What part of the attestation or commissioning scroll says you're entitled to a life?

I see your point Spotter FC but i had my fingers crossed. Can i have a life? (and does anyone know where you can download them from?):ok:

[althenick]

Iv'e never understood the reason why all 3 services cannot enjoy the fashion accessory of either a set or 'tash. These rules have got to be up for change in the future. :confused:
Personally I sported a set whilst in training at Raliegh. On the second last day we got a fire school. Result was I couldn't get a decent seal on the BA mask the Instructor said I should leave the TIT out (On Demand) and then spent the whole exercise hoying fire appliances around and labouring for breath - Saw sense after that and got rid of it! :ok:
One thing i've never understood though, is why some guys like to sport 'Bu66ers Grips' (Side burns) - makes you look like a Teddy boy :suspect:

[BEagle]

Yozzer
Goatees are for some shirt-lifters.
Full sets are for Fishhead shirt-lifters.
Styled haircuts are for the remaining shirt-lifters.

You missed out the other one - 'lamb chops' more properly known as Buggers' Grips! By definition, favoured by shirt-lifters!

If someone wants to look like an arsehole with teeth - they can grow a full set in the RN. Where it probably keeps the face warm when whittling scrimshaw whilst sitting whiling away the lonely hours at sea on an upturned rum keg, or whatever!

In the RAF, surely 'Bomber Command moustaches' went out with Bomber Command?



.

[Zoom]

BEagle

'an arsehole with teeth' - what a perfect, dual-purpose description of Gerry Adams!

[jindabyne]

BEagle

Careful old chap - I too have a head like a bottom, but without the arsehole or teeth!.

Last CAS used to sport the Grips for many years - certainly not a shirt-lifter though.

[Duncan Bucket]

more properly known as Buggers' Grips! By definition, favoured by shirt-lifters!

So what was/is the "Handlebar" moustache used for then??

Special cycling??

Question for all slug balancers: why bother to grow hair on your filtrum and shave the rest off? Gains no extra time in your cart of a morning.

[Onan the Clumsy]

Look here (http://www.handlebarclub.org.uk/gallery.htm).

and if that's not enough:


Hitler...moustache
Stalin...moustache
Saddaamm Husseeiinn...moustache, then beard
OBL...beard
Gengis Khan...long hair

[lineslime]

Had a F/S rock at Lyneham with a full on handlebar, absolutly brilliant chap. Unfortunatly it made him look like an outcast from the village people.

[badger baiter]

nice website sure some of those chaps were named and shamed in the news of the world!!!!!
I always push my luck with my sideboards:ok: :ok:

[BEagle]

.......although I have no wish to see Ozzie Osborne replicas wearing HM uniform

One of the smartest, most military mates I knew was called Noel 'Ozzie' Osbourne. But you certainly wouldn't have confused him with that spaced out old pop musician of the same name!

[JessTheDog]

What part of the attestation or commissioning scroll says you're entitled to a life?

What part says you're not?;)

Hitler...moustache
Stalin...moustache
Saddaamm Husseeiinn...moustache, then beard
OBL...beard
Gengis Khan...long hair

Blair - clean shaven.
Hoon - clean shaven.;)

No-one wants to see people with blue hair or ZZ Top beards wearing Her Majesty's uniform. Also, those who insist on their right to extremes of fashion are being over-obsessive.

However, the service once more displays its tendency for bottom-inspection and emphasis on niff-naff and trivia at the expense of what should really be important. At a time of massive cutbacks and overstrtch, what do the RAF do? Update the AP on dress standards and issue a new rucksack. Do you have the misfortune to live in multiple-man rooms on a "certain airbase in Norfolk"? Never mind, at least you have a mirror in the shared ablutions so you can check that the sideburns do not pass the "midpoint of the tragus." Is the missus threatening divorce because of another 4 months away? Never mind, lock yourself in the bathroom and shave your neck!

The personnel in the command chain who flout these rules tend to be those with imagination and moral courage; those (outwith ab-initio units) who apply the rules with rigour tend to lack these qualities.

[PT6ER]

A question from a non-military type:

do the requirements for NBC gear/ O2 masks etc give problems with the old bum fluff??

[JessTheDog]

do the requirements for NBC gear/ O2 masks etc give problems with the old bum fluff??

I know that the serious beardies with the RN shave off their whiskers when going to war....a few faces suddenly changed appearance at a certain tri-service unit I used to work with...

Why not have different standards? "Parade" standards of freshly-shaved neck and no facial hair outwith the lip-length 'tache and half-length sidies, and more relaxed standards for non-parade occasions. This is what tends to happen by default, bottom-inspectors aside!

[Impiger]

BEags

Was that Ozzie a gentleman of colour as they say in South Carolina? If so then he was the jag mate we taught to fly F4 before he went on exchange. Oh how we laughed when he took off in cold power: " Well the acceleration was better than a Jag so I thought everything was OK" and then again how we chortled at his aerodynamic braking technique which resulted in sparks flying from the stabilator tips - all very impressive!

[Widger]

Notwithstanding opinions as to its "gayness", a goatee is the ideal shape to allow for a respirator seal. Previous comment about an extra 5 minutes in said scratcher remains valid however.:zzz: :zzz: :zzz:

[BEagle]

Yup, Impiger - that was he! Super chap with a tremendous sense of humour!

Once on 234 Sqn we were off on some formation trip and he couldn't remember whether we were Red or Yellow (the girls of 63 were Blue or Green).

"What colour are we?", he asked with an "Oh, f***, I know what's coming next" expression on his face.

"I is white, you is black, we is Red" came the reply!

[Zoom]

As I heard a hairy old flt lt say 30 or more years ago: 'Why would you want to cultivate something that already grows in abundance around your posterior orifice?'

[stiknruda]

Imp/BEagle,

Bumped into Noel a few months ago as we both tripped down the stairs of his company 74-4 in Barbados!

Stik

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

A thought.....if the girls can have long flowing tresses that are legal if put up in a "bun", and studs in their ears for work....how long till the guys get the same treatment:p :p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[lineslime]

Will the boys be allowed to wear skirts & tights/stockings as well (for those that way inclined)?:\ :\ :\

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Only if you accompany it with a dark blue uniform:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[lineslime]

Well if it makes them happy who am I to spoil their fun.

[Argus]

Yosser

Precisely what restrictions do you think might apply to those in your so called colonial climes?

[BEagle]

stiknruda - which airline was Noel flying for?

I see that another mate from our 234 Sqn course was the FO on the last Concorde flight.

"Lebley - him not comin' home tonight!" - remember that, Les, if you're reading?

[Yozzer]

Argus

There are countries in the world where the UK mil will not allow us to visit, historically Russia was one. Many such countries now exploit tourism and for reasons of culture and or climate have much to offer. Yet we still cannot just pack a bag and jump on a jet like every civilianl british citizen can. My point is that I should be able to take my vacation whereever Mrs H sees fit, and that frankly it is no business of the services where I am for I am unobtainable on leave, phone switched off, sipping a Pina Colada and watching the chicks breeze by and getting the odd slap off her indoors when she notices. But hey, thats what sun glasses are for.

So my question is: Are the British unique in having such travel limitations imposed on their "workforce" a term chosen deliberatly because nowadays we have "directors" and "management". But thats another story......

[Argus]

Yosser

I'm not an expert on leave matters militaire in Oz. But when it comes to travelling to exotic locations, I think you'll find that your Antipodean comrades face similar restrictions on where they can and can't go, unless prior approval has been obtained.

I recall that one of the factors in determining the list of unapproved destinations is the travel advice put out by the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade (http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/Index) After 9/11 and the Bali Bombing, you'd be a mug punter not to at least take into account what Foreign Affairs say before visiting the place in question.

There are also some statutory restrictions on the types of post separation overseas employment that former Australian service people can take up.

'Scouse git' are you?

[SASless]

The US Forces and some civilian jobs have the same ban. Having had a security clearance and participated in a security mission for safeguarding nuclear materials...I have to have permission and a brief before I can travel to certain countries....and I was last in the military in the early 70's.

Your complaint sounds a bit overblown about not being able to go to certain places on vacation....my list of banned places is not anywhere I would care to go for a jolly.

[FishHead]

Having just received a brief on travevelling whilst on a private trip , I can say that down in Oz, we can travel just about anywhere we like... however, if you go to certain countries then you will almost certainly lose various parts of your security clearance which may make you unemployable.

I understand that our cousins over the pond are the drivers for this requirement.

[Blacksheep]

No Yozzer the British are not alone. In fact there are other countries that don't allow even their civilians to visit certain countries like Cuba or China. My "Jilly-foreigner" wife, who was still a civilian the last time I checked, isn't allowed to visit Russia, China, Cuba, North Korea or Israel.

[Point0Five]

FishHead

"I can say that down in Oz, we can travel just about anywhere we like"

Sounds to me like you've been fed some duff gen....:rolleyes:

[Widger]

Point is,

If you are a member of HM Forces, other nations might not like having you on their territory. Even if you are wearing civvies on holiday in another country, you are still part of HM Government's organisation. Sensitivities are strong in countries other than ours, even within the EU. Plane spotters in Greece!

Example foreign (non NATO) military wandering around the UK on a caravaning holiday? i.e. forces from GWB's axis of evil etc. Restrictions are not just there to piss you off. When you go to these countries, do you have diplomatic clearance etc? If you want to move around the world without restriction, then become a civvy.

[FishHead]

.05
I just double checked with my subject matter expert... he confirmed that I can go wherever, but they may take security clearance rights off me depending on where I go.

Upshot - they cannot ban me from travelling anywhere, despite some 'orders' that have floated around in the last year or so. Those have been challenged in court and found wanting.

Of course, having said all that, I doubt that I would really want to go to the kind of countries that they get upset over!

[Argus]

FishHead

Suggest you review the difference between administrative and disciplinary action. You don't need to be charged with a offence under the Defence Force Discipline Act 1982 to have your services dispensed with.

And you might like to assist us with details of the cases you refer to - the citations would be particularly helpful.

[FishHead]

I am comfrotable with the differences between admin and DFDA action (having used both), and I guess it is pretty plain to most of us that losing your sec clearance can pretty well be the end of career depending on who and what you are...

I cant quote the exact case to refer to, as my USO was relaying to me an anecdote as applied to a airman at my current unit who redressed an action based on the court case result (and I can remember how sensitive Redresses are as far as -in-Confidence goes, so not willing to push my luck right now)
I will however see if I can find out...

[Point0Five]

FishHead

Let's agree to disagree... I suggest you get your hands on the relevant DEFGRAM. The CDF directive WRT overseas travel restrictions seems rather black and white to me.

Whilst not an authoritative reference:

"Last year CDF Gen Peter Cosgrove directed that ADF commanders do not approve leave for ADF personnel intending to travel to any global areas covered by foreign affairs advisories for non-essential travel."

http://www.defence.gov.au/news/armynews/editions/1112/topstories/story10.htm

I'm not trying to be a smart arse... I just don't like the idea of people booking and paying for overseas holidays and getting caught out at the last moment.

Forewarned is forearmed.;)

[totalwar]

S'funny that you should mention holidays to the Republic on the very week that the restriction on travel is lifted....????

conspiracy ?

[mbga9pgf]

Dude, Man Up.

You knew the rules when you joined, I don't fancy going to work daily with a bunch of vain, mirror-kissing Tony and Guy styled freaks when I can get away with a tidy conservative £6 chop from the station butchers.

Whats next?

fashion parades in the mess?
Jeans in the bar on working days?

Now don't suggest you would support mullets or "Scruffy look" in the bar!

[Just an other number]

BEagle

He was in BA, the last I heard which was, admittedly, a couple of years ago. Although if he's flying a 7 to barbados, I assume he's still with them.

[Argus]

FishHead

Mate, you need to be sure of your facts. The rules for ADF members and pubic serpents are not the same.

My understanding of the RAAF position is that, in addition to the restrictions on travel to places mentioned in DFAT despatches, a number of specific directives have been issued relating to travel through the Middle East. If you disregard the directives, you will likely end up on at least one fizzer.

I cant quote the exact case to refer to, as my USO was relaying to me an anecdote as applied to a airman at my current unit who redressed an action based on the court case result
Sounds like second hand hearsay to me. It's true that there have been recent cases in the Federal Court that have ruled on the validity of some RAAF orders. However, to my knowledge, travel directives were not the subject of the litigation in question.
I will however see if I can find out...
I look forward to your reply.

[insty66]

Am I missing something here?
When we sign on, we know the basic rules and by signing on agree to obey those rules. You can't pick and choose the ones to obey and ignore those you don't like. If you don't like it why get involved in the first place?
harrumph:ugh:

[lineslime]

insty
Fair point, but surely you have to admit it's about time some QRs are due for updating. Although saying that I for one will take great pleasure in riding a horse to work, during my last week as a number, and presenting it to the SWO to look after. I guess some are there to be abused.

[MajorMadMax]

This was about mustaches, wasn't it?!? :p

Since you asked, we colonial cousins do have more restrictive regs than our NATO allies, as evident by the German Öberst Hans von Diddeldörf here at SHAPE:

http://www.handlebarclub.org.uk/jurgenburkhardt.jpg

Now that's not very military now, is it???

Our are not allowed to extend beyond the sides of our mouths, so this one is fully acceptable and considered totally professional:

http://www.thereverend.com/images/mustache.jpg

See the difference? Much better, right?

Cheers! M2

[Yozzer]

Insty said:

If you don't like it why get involved in the first place?

When I joined up, the RAF had 150,000 personell. PC was a ZX spectrum or Commodore 64 (rather than tree hugging) and financial constraint had not yet been invented. I was expected to do the job of 1 man, well perhaps one and a very little bit if career minded, and I did think that career prospects were realistic. Men were men, and WRAFs were ..... well lets not go there, however morale was a dam sight higher than it has been for a decade, and that was with siren equipped minis waking you up a 4am every other week.

None of these have changed for the better, but they have all changed never-the-less.

Air Force Law is ancient and unlikely to stand up in court if challenged, and by bowing to Europe, the rights of the individual have changed................or have they?

[C130 Techie]

I fully agree with insty66. We all knew or should have known what we were getting ourselves into when we signed onthe line. Are we not all volunteers?

I would be the first to admit that the service I joined some 28 years ago is almost unrecognisable now, however the same basic standards and discipline are still required to ensure that we remain an effective and cohesive organisation.

All this PC and human rights rubbish that we are forced to endure today does nothing for morale.

An effective fighting force requires fit, able bodied people who are prepared to accept a degree of discipline. This is ever more important as the size of the forces shrinks and we are required to work under ever increasing pressure.:*

[X-QUORK]

"One-eye" was in the Army a few years back I had a boss who got very pi$$ed off with us constantly trying to grow longer sideburns (as was the fashion). His solution was simple and effective - he used a thick permanent black marker pen to identify the line below which hair was not permitted to grow.

All very amusing and it worked very well.

[Navaleye]

You used to have to fill in a "Beard Chit" in the RN. Tashes were a no no, but they may have changed. Personally I did not favour beards it makes Jack look like a Viking warrior.

[reynoldsno1]

I know of at least 3 navs in the kipper fleet who sported "full-sets" during the 70's..... something to do with ingrowing facial hair & scar tissue on the face ......

[Self Loading Freight]

I thought cooks and Maltese were allowed to wear full beards in the RN - everyone else had to get permission and the 28-day ABF inspection?

On the other subject, I once arranged tiny things in interesting configurations for a company which made whoosh-bang-nasties and other underwing poddage painted various shades of drab. Nobody told me when I joined that certain holiday destinations were verboten, but it was made apparent to someone who asked that his intended sojourn over the iron curtain (then still keeping the gangsters away) would result in massive career realignment.

Mind you, at the time the corporate attitude to human rights was that if you worried about such things you really ought to be hugging a tree somewhere else. Corporate culture was mostly about extracting as much money from the MOD as possible, building things that broke a lot and then getting the pals at the MOD and the FO to flog 'em off to people who either didn't need them or shouldn't have them. In either case, as the stuff didn't work very well no damage was done, and as the company was a fully paid up member of Uncle Arnie's Revolving Door Club it was always possible to find a well-padded seat for a well-padded backside from Whitehall or elsewhere who felt the need to make a move following some particularly bare-faced (look, no 'tache!) bit of chicanery.

I didn't last very long, which was a very good thing for all concerned. I'm sure the personnel officer at the company (very, very old-school Stanmore. "We really don't know what to do with you, old chap" was a typical item at our regular meetings) chortled as he tore up the paperwork. I now nobly support crown and country by contributing copious time and money to the upkeep of the brewing, distilling and salacious publishing industries, and choose not to wear any form of facial hair (except at weekends).

R

[snaggletooth]

NEVER trust a man with facial hair! He's hiding summat. Nuff said.:ok:

[mbga9pgf]

Dr Shipman, Hitler and Stalin being examples?

[emergov]

In my experience, every handlebar moustache is attached to a complete git.