Raf & Cdt

[totalwar]

It would seem that to be caught you need to be an SAC or a Group Captain (http://www.mod.uk/linked_files/publications/foi/rr/raf2.pdf)

[SACrIGGER]

Fewer that five, but greater than zero Group Captains were tested positive in 2000, interesting to say the least!

[BigginAgain]

totalwar

Read it again.

Between the years 2000-2004, positive drug tests for:

Gp Capt <5. I believe the actual number was one (Ops Spt Branch).
Cpl 5
Jnr Tech 5
SAC 55
LAC 5
AC 15

Actually, although surprised by the Gp Capt, I am also concerned by the number of ACs and LACs. What does this say about the yoofs we are recruiting?

BA

(Edited to correct from 'LAC and SAC' to 'AC and LAC', which was was I meant to say, as pointed out by c-bert below - tvm)

[c-bert]

Surely it is the ACs and LACs which are the 'yoofs' you speak of. SACs have been in for a while and that is the more worrying fact.

[jindabyne]

TW

Why don't you do us all a big favour and go choke on your mouse - you prat!

[totalwar]

dont have a mouse spotty....got a rat though.....white1 as well


At BRNC and at HMS Raleigh the RN have an amnesty when they ask the new joiners if they have ever taken an Illegal sunstance. Generally the reply is around the 80-90% positive. However, thats the culture of today.

[BEagle]

The 'Big 3'questions we used to ask the potential UAS recruits included "What experience, if any, have you had of illegal drugs".

Funnily enough, even if they said they'd only tried just one puff of a 'joint', they NEVER got to the second interview stage....

We had plenty of clean people to choose from!

[Fire 'n' Forget]

As the numbers go we aint that bad in the 'junior service'

Lord Astor of Hever asked Her Majesty's Government:


How many servicemen or women were required to leave the armed services for failing compulsory drug tests over the past five years.[HL1442]


Lord Bach: The number of service personnel who were discharged from the Armed Forces over the last five calendar years for failing a compulsory drugs test is as follows:

3 Mar 2004 : Column WA105

Year The Naval Service The Army The RAF
2003 (1)48 406 (2)19
2002 38 350 11
2001 47 540 15
2000 46 480 8
1999 30 255 7

[November4]

61,310 tests conducted over 5 years

85 positives results

or 0.14% of the tests resulted in catching a druggie.

I do not have any time for drug users at all in terms of cost and time isn't CDT in the RAF a very expensive and disproportionate response to a small problem.

*****incoming*****

[mystic_meg]

if they have ever taken an Illegal sunstance

...something YOU want to tell us, TW?

[DP Harvey]

Its entirely possible that the rigorous application of CDT, althougb expensive in resources and a distraction to those selected, is proving to be a successful deterrent.

[5206]

If a deterrent, why do the figure appear to be getting worse?

Are more tests being carried out?

[JessTheDog]

Whether a deterrent or not it can be a right pain in the backside, like the time a few years ago when the highly secret National Trust base near Walter's Ash ground to a halt one lunchtime, as the guards checked everyone on the way out - many hundreds of them.:mad:

[totalwar]

I totally agree with November4...what a complete waste of money CDT is AND it doesn't seem to deter anyone at all....

How about introducing compulsory Breath testing?

A friend of mine had an exchanmge with the US and the fiorst thing they do once you have landed safely following an incident is to give you a breath test..

[ADIS5000]

TW & Nov 4,

OK I'll bite.............

If CDT catches even 1 druggie it's worthwhile. With today's drug culture we need a deterrent of some description. How'd you like to go and hurtle down valleys at 400+kts / 500ft in a jet maintained by someone with a heroine habit? Or receive air traffic services from someone who did a bit of recreational coke the night before? What price do you guys think other people's lives are worth? Obviously not very much.

Now wise up and go and wind up people in other forums...............

[SpotterFC]

The numbers are probably getting worse because society at large is becoming more tolerant of drugs.

I don't actually care how much this is costing nor how inconvenient people at HQs find it - I consider it to be a working deterrant for the small number of idiots who are, nonetheless, possibly responsible for bolting safety-critical equipment together, controlling aircraft, directing aircraft, handling weapons and other things that we in the military have to do that Joe F**kwit hanging around outside the local dole office doesn't. Fancy driving up to an armed guard who might have an Acid Flashback, or who is still a little too spaced out after last night to remember to put the safety catch on do we?

I suppose we could test this hyposthesis by "stopping" CDT for a year or so then "re-introducing" it.

One thing we really ought to consider is getting more DAPO roadshows going. I believe there is now only one guy doing these for the entire RAF, and he has his work cut out just doing the rounds of the trg bases: couldn't get him for love, money nor drugs to come to my last unit for a Friday afternoon trg period. Saw the show a good few years ago now, and it certainly made me pause for thought - even more so now I'm a Dad. If they showed half the photos we saw to kids I reckon a few more might not "try it out" (accepting always that they'll sooner listen to their idiot mates than someone telling them how it is).

TW - what makes you think you won't now get breath tested after an accident here? ATC and FC are also subject to these rules now.

ADIS - beat me to it.

[totalwar]

TW - what makes you think you won't now get breath tested after an accident here? ATC and FC are also subject to these rules now Because its against the law. It would be against my human rights to force me to conduct a breath test. The only people who can make me conduct a breath test are the Police.

[SirToppamHat]

TW

Actually, I don't believe that even the Police can force you to provide a breath test, urine sample or even blood sample. However, in the case of driving, I believe that refusal to provide such samples is, in itself, an offence.

I know that the limit for controller blood alcohol levels is considerably lower than that for drink driving ... be warned! However, I am not exactly sure how a test would be conducted, or by whom. Do med centres hold the kit for breath testing? What if you refused? Failure to comply with a lawful order? Must get the JSP out!

What concerns me about the whole CDT thing (and I support SpotterFC's line on the necessity of CDT), is that with the number of unlawful drugs out there, it would be quite easy to get caught out by someone spiking a drink. The policy is one strike and out you go, but it may be that a person tests positive without knowingly committing an offence.

[November4]

I suppose we could test this hyposthesis by "stopping" CDT for a year or so then "re-introducing" it

How many accidents or acid flash back gate guard incidents were there prior to the introduction of CDT?

The RAFP seemed to do quite a good job of catching people who took drugs when it was punishable by time inside. Now its a quick way to get out of the Forces.

Which was the bigger deterent?

Time inside and discharge or admin discharge?

[Mr C Hinecap]

If I flew a jet, I'd be happy if it was

in a jet maintained by someone with a heroine habit

sounds quite noble to me.

Sir T. Spiking of drinks is a fairly scarce way of imbibing illegal substances - most people that part with their cash want to put it to their own use and not that of a stranger. Suppose it depends where you're drinking of course!

Oh - illegal stimulants also include glue sniffing, petrol sniffing etc - all happened within our Armed Forces. We do live in a pretty drug-free environment and we are far better off than the rest of society. I nearly got 20 Questions from a DAPO Team for knowing too much about drugs - but I used to have a professional interest in the subject. Spotter - go to your local Civ Police and see if they can help - probably more than happy to do so.

I don't have a problem with young guys & girls that have tried before joining. Wouldn't you rather have someone that has made a conscious life choice from experience and decided, or someone who might try?

[SpotterFC]

TW

Don't disagree that you could refuse, but I couldn't see anyone wanting to fly/work with you afterwards! Guilty until proven innocent in that case I'd say, even if just prosecuted by banter and gossip in the crewroom afterwards. If you've got nothing to hide there's no need to get behind the gutless' shield of HRA.

N4

I have no idea - but the drug problems in society are a bit greater now - wouldn't you say?

STH

pretty sure I saw something along these lines before I left the bunker - certainly saw a new GASO or something about controller limits related to ATC limits brought in by NATS or ICAO.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Sadly, it would appear that the case for CDT is still quite strong - read this article (http://www.thisishampshire.net/hampshire/archive/2004/07/19/BASINGSTOKE_NEWS_NEWS01ZM.html) if you disagree. It should be noted, however, that the traces of illegal drugs were deemed not to be a contributory factor in this person's death.

[SirToppamHat]

SpotterFC

Agreed, but I couldn't recall the details, and can't see exactly how it would be applied at my (your former) place of work. If not too busy, I will have a look tomorrow.

Regards

STH