Beech 1900 Rating - Is it worth doing?!

[thekiwicappy]

Hi guys,

Just wondering if any of you out there would know of a good place to do a Beech 1900 Command Rating...preferably in AUS/NZ though the US would also be considered depending on cost.

Vincent aviation in Darwin and NZ do them for around 12k AUS, and that involves a 4 day ground school, BGT, and 5 hours on type. Being Kiwi's they seem like a good crowd. I'm still trying to justify the investment though...but considering the current climate in GA, with opportunities here and abroad, i feel it could be a positive move which will pay off.

Any feedback, ideas, suggestions would be greatly appreciated lads/lasses!!!!!!!!! Ta!

[piontyendforward]

Despite all the di*k heads that will bleat on about not paying for ratings (normally from the security of being in a larger operation) it is a good way to start.

They are good operators though 12K is a bit on the high side for such little flight time. Try and get some line flying to consolidate the type rating.

I don't know what the hell a "command rating" is; so I suppose there must be "non command rating" as well? Must be some kind of Aussie bovine droppings thing, as no other ICAO licence seems to have such an animal, that I know of (always stand to be corrected though). A rating is a rating full stop, except in the States where the f/o does not need a rating.

Do it onto a NZ ATPL IAW the Trans Tasman Agreement as there is no such thing as "command ratings" in NZ then apply to Falcon Air Express, in the UAE as they are short of type rated pilots.

It might pay to contact Falcon and check out what the are looking for. (no I don't have their contact number)

Its still better than staying in Aus or NZ and bending over for G.A.!

[Chilli Tarts]

What are your hours, TT, ME (total and CMD)?? Thought about a Metro III endorsement for less then 10k? Includes flight time, ground school and 50hrs ICUS (for a CMD rating). There is a lot more Metros around compared to 1900's. Just a thought

[atyourcervix73]

Kiwicappy;

before you spend a cent..you need to think a few things through VERY carefully,

1. Is there a job at the end of this? If all your doing is throwing cash and hoping to be picked up because you have a "rating" then your rolling the dice on something you have absolutely no control over.

2. Is this value for money?

3. Are there other operators of this a/c e.g. if these guys dont want you..how many others might.

4. Do you fit the profile? e.g. are you a low houred guy wanting to jump ahead of the competition...or are you experienced enough to be of value to an airline.

5. And finally..If you spend this money..will you be willing to pay for the next T/R...line training....recurrency..its a slippery slope (Go and look at the Ryainair threads..as well as others)

I hope this helps and concerntrates your mind

cheers:8

[thekiwicappy]

Thanks heaps fella's!

In my situation with ATPL, 3500 hrs, 500 multi etc i just think i need to push myself here and get away from piston's once and for all. They were great fun and provided unforgettable memories both here in Oz and overseas, though i really believe it's time to make the step up and concentrate on the big picture.

I realise it's a **** tin of money for a rating and there are other aircraft to consider(yeah metro's...) that would suit as well, but for what i have in mind, i feel pretty confident that this will score me the 'specific' job i'm after. Australia is'nt the 'be-all n end-all' for me, and there are definately some good jobs out there.

I've been told if the rating goes well and they're happy with me they'll throw in 10-15 hours ICUS which i think will be essential to make the rating worth it. Going from single pilot ops, flying pistons, to multi-crew turbine ops is a real shift, and something that i feel is needed before the thought of jets can be entertained - others will disagree i'm sure - that's just my opinion.

Cheers for the feedback!!!!

[turbolager]

Mate you might want to check out what ratings are going for free in NZ for, oh, about the last year or so....

[DeltaT]

Eagle will -not- take you if you buy your own rating I was told when I asked them...if thats any help. And 12k you quote seems pretty cheap considering what they told me it costs them to do it for (Eagle)!
Airwork will do a Mero rating for around 11-12k NZ, but no job guarantee at the end.

[justathought]

Delta T...... thats not correct, why would a company specifically exclude a candidate because they have a rating? They may be the most suitable person for the job in every respect so the rating is neither here nor there. A successful candidate off a rescent interview course had just completed a 1900 rating with Vincent. They sent him away to Toronto just like everyone else. I dont think it is an advantage though, it gives the panel plenty of ammo for technical questions during the interview as you are obviously expected to know all about the aircraft.
As for comparing the costs of the Vincent rating and the Eagle one I think that is not apples with apples. They are different products. The ground course is of similar duration but five hours in the plane v's 24hrs in the sim, return tickets to Canada and all the associated allowences and accomodation costs....it is easy to see why it costs more for the Eagle rating.
Please don't take this as pro eagle/anti Vincent or vice versa. I think they are both sound operators and if my current job wound up I would be knocking on both their doors.

[grrowler]

Mate with those kind of hours I woulda thought you could have a shot at a regional without having to fork out for an endo. Don't know bout NZ but here the regionals are certainly taking guys with no turbine time...

[ITCZ]

Kiwicappy, can understand your frustration in feeling 'stagnant' when you have a reasonable amount of experience under your belt.

I have made my views about 'paying for ratings/icus/interview courses' known here previously, so I wont go into that. Suffice to say the last thing a fellow should be expected to meet at his/her own expense is their instrument rating and their ATPL subjects.

Pointyendforward might be dismissive, but my experience is that should he make it to the 'security of a larger operation' he will be the one bleating about erosion of conditions after the honeymoon period expires.

But enough of the politics.

Type ratings are good things to have, but they can be a red herring.

I am thinking right now of a half a dozen colleagues who went and bought C402 ratings, did Metro groundschools, paid for Brasilia, Westwind and even B727 ratings that never got to fly more than their paid-for-ICUS time, and no job.

I guess I am warning you that, more often than not, such pilots think they are advancing their career, when in fact they are not addressing the real reason for their perceived lack of success.

You do need a certain amount of total time. You do need a certain amount of twin command. Granted.

But after that, what really gets you the next job up the rung is your attitude and reputation amongst your peers.

A guy with a reputation as a good operator, and one who comes across as informed and up to date with their industry knowledge, will score better than someone who simply has a type rating.

It might be more beneficial, and a lot less expensive, to sit back and take stock of where you are in your career. Take a dispassionate look at the skills you have, the kind of jobs you have had, how much extra work you have done on your technical knowledge...... for example, at your experience level, you should have a few IF renewals under your belt, so, do you REALLY know your AIP? How much of 'the book' do you carry around in your head? Just enough to get by, or do you get stuck into it and regularly study your books to advance your knowledge.

For example, you are looking to get into pressurised turboprop operations.

Could you answer, right now, a question on supplemental oxygen requirements for pressurised aircraft? How much for the flight crew? The cabin crew? The passengers? Any planned/actual cruise altitude considerations affect this?

Or... what is the taxiing separation required when you are behind a turboprop or a jet? Rolling and stationary? If you know the answers in metres or feet behind... how do you practically judge if you are too close or at a safe distance?

That sort of stuff. You know, being able to answer questions on the operation you aspire to, as well as being thorough in the operation you are currently employed in.

I am making no judgement of you here, this is something for you to assess yourself.

It is quite possible to amass a reasonable amount of total time by only studying just enough to get through the next renewal on your current aeroplane.

It is another thing to set yourself on the course of making yourself into a real professional.

To set aside at least an hour every working day in study will cost you not a cent, but will pay off much better than $5k or $12k on a few days of type rating with little on line experience.

At first you will discover bits of knowledge and information that reveal that maybe you have been unknowingly bending a few rules here and there.

Then once you start to know your subject, you will know most of the rules pretty well, and you will start to ask 'well, how the hell do I comply with that?"

Then you will start to think in terms of planning your flights and your departures/cruise/approaches in ways that are simple and comply with all the little wrinkles.

Then, when you find yourself talking to other pilots, and being interviewed by other pilots for better jobs, you will stand out as someone who does more than just pole an aeroplane around the sky without banging into something solid;)

My suggestion to you is, take stock of your store of professional knowledge, and take a cold hard look at your reputation amongst your peers. If hitting the books regularly seems a chore, then you might be consigning yourself to a round robin of type ratings and a handful of ICUS hours here and there, and an ever diminishing bank account.

Good employers (that is, the people you would eventually like to work for) recognise that it is far more effective to hire someone with excellent skills and knowledge, and a disciplined approach to their flying, and provide them with a type rating....

.... as against hiring someone who has the type rating but is a bit of an unknown quantity when it comes to their attitude, skills and knowledge.

And believe me, if you ever find yourself in the position of interviewing half-a-dozen job applicants that meet company minimums... it doesn't take long to assess which applicants have done their homework and know their stuff very well, and which guys are not used to having their knowledge and understanding tested!

My 2c worth. Good luck!

[Sheep Guts]

If your are going to spend that kind of dosh on a Turbo Prop rating which incidently is way too high. I have done a Ground school course once with Vincent many years ago to fly a C406 in Darwin ( which never happened due to me getting another Job) and it was joke it lasted all of 3 hrs in an afternoon.

If your prepared to spend 12k on on B1900 you can afford to spend that and a little more on Jet rating which is what you should consider with your exoerience. Props are for boats and make you deaf. My advice is ,to bypass props alltogether. I considered Dash Ratings and B1900 etc. when I had your time, but I saved my money for the Jet.

I have never payed for a Turbo prop endorsement, DHC-6.B90,B200. But I payed for all my Piston ones, BE58,PA-31,C310,C402, go figure.

26 New start up Airlines in Asia this year. Start thinking outside the box theres more to aviation than Australia and New Zealand.


my 2cents worths

Sheep

[DeltaT]

Justathought....what do you mean I am not correct??
My comment is in relation to Eagle and not Vincent.
I have talked to Eagle myself, in person (!), and when I asked I was specifically told " we will not employ you if you buy a rating".
Unless of course you want to take that personally and he meant it was just me he would not employ with a rating :p

[justathought]

Delta I'm not suggesting that you didnt ring them or that they didnt tell you that, I'm just saying that it is not correct that they don't hire people who have payed for a rating. They just have.
Have a good day mate.

[thekiwicappy]

ITCZ,

Thanks for the advice, i'll take it on board...i hear ya bud!!! It may look a little odd someone having my sort of hours and not having the regionals calling for a chat. My career has been a bit different to most though with substantial periods working overseas, goelogical surveying, which have both been all single, and then returning back to RPT in Oz.

Although Oz/NZ regionals are hiring, with the exception of two, it is'nt where i want to be this year. Having a 1900 Rating and scoring a gig in the Middle East is definately more exciting(for me), and i feel a good move with a view for the future. There are loads of pilots out there who are content to stay in Oz and NZ no matter what...and good luck to them...and then there are the rest of us...

[Cloud Cutter]

DeltaT

I think you got your wires crossed. What they (eagle) probibly ment was you will not increase your chances by buying a rating (they start you from scratch anyway). As has been said, we are talking about to completely different products.

[outboundjetsetter]

In one word "NO" ,taken from someone who has done what your about to do and succeeded in landing a job on the beest(s)!

BE CARFUL SPENDING SO MUCH CASH
its a bit like the TAB really " you know the odds, now beat them!"...

Kiwi Cappy check your PM

[DeltaT]

ahh, right, I see the grammitcal mistake I have been making. yes, sorry confusing in what I meant