Nottingham Lynx Ditching

[12 PSI]

Press Release from Invincible:

3 Mar 05 (As at 1100L)

HMS NOTTINGHAM – Lynx Ditching
HMS NOTTINGHAM’s Lynx and 3 aircrew ditched shortly after 0800 Local (0400 GMT) on Thu 3 Mar 05. The Mk 8 Lynx from 815 NAS had been conducting a routine surface search in the Indian Ocean, when at 0755 she made a MAYDAY call. The Lynx ditched in a controlled fashion and all 3 aircrew escaped unhurt. The helicopter sank soon afterwards in deep water.

The ditching took place about 120 miles to the east of Oman, with HMS NOTTINGHAM, HMS INVINCIBLE and FS GUEPRATTE in the vicinity. The multinational force immediately reacted to effect a rescue, aided by the nearby Merchant Vessel, Wilhelm Schulter. HMS INVINCIBLE’s 771 NAS helicopter recovered the 3 aircrew to the aircraft carrier. They will be returned to HMS NOTTINGHAM later in the day.

HMS NOTTINGHAM is part of a Task Group operating in the Gulf of Arabia. She is acting as escort to HMS INVINCIBLE, where Rear Admiral Charles Style CBE, Commander of the UK Maritime Forces heads up the Task Group as part of MARSTRIKE 05 deployment.

An investigation into the incident has started.

[orca]

Thank God they're safe. God Bless 771 (again).

[SmilingKnifed]

Echo Orca's sentiments, glad no one hurt.

What an awful few months for the RN Lynx guys.

[VoicesFromTheCreche]

Thank god they're all OK - good to hear some positive news after something like this.

[FJJP]

Great stuff! Well done the rescuers and well done the ditching crew for the fine flying that enabled survival.

Told you the drills would be useful one day!...

[Thud Ridge]

Glad to here all ok. Well done 771.

yours aye

TR

[jEtGuiDeR]

Thankfully all are safe and well after hearing a "buzz" today
Big relief, hope crew, family and friends are coping ok

240

[Tourist]

yes, well done 771.
You took off, flew to the survivors, winched them up and flew back.
Let me be the first to suggest all manner of medals for your bravery:rolleyes:

[Si Clik]

Just to clarify.

771 do have a flight on Invincible. Not sure which one but they provide SAR and HDS support.

Thank goodness all are safe.

:hmm:

[kippermate]

I echo most comments. Glad the crew are safe.

Tourist. Not required!

kipper

[BTDTGTTShirt]

Echo everyone - Thank god they are safe:O
Well done SAR boys whatever sqn they were from:ok:

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Good to know everyone's safe.

[Huron Topp]

Well done folks.:ok:

Tourist, me thinks your chip is showing.:hmm:

[Tourist]

These threads P#ss me off!
Everybody is fine!
Get over it.
Endless lists of people, most of whom I truly don't believe know the people involved any more than I do, saying "gosh I am so glad!" and "well done 771!!" (and no, I dont have anything against SAR Gods, but congratulate them for their moments of bravery, not for Sea Drills for gods sake)
Please save outpourings of emotion for events that really warrant it, and then only if you really have to.

[Green Flash]

Excuse my rampant ignorance - FS GUEPRATTE? Who they, please?:confused:

[Archimedes]

GF - a French La Fayette -class light frigate IIRC...

[Oggin Aviator]

Glad all OK.

Tourist

Please put yourself in the position of the Lynx crew - probably just survived a truly terrifying ordeal (maybe only thought about it after the event - they were probably too busy to think at the time). The Lynx does not float so well, even in a controlled ditching, so they probably had little time to get out - specially more difficult for the third crew member stuck in the tiny cabin in the back, so just to get out is an enormous relief.

So, a minute or two ago you were flying around happy as larry and suddenly the world goes crazy, your heart rate goes through the roof, massive anxiety followed by relief that you got out. There you are bobbing up and down in your tiny life raft (or not maybe), and a big grey and red helo comes over the horizon. I would surmise it is the most wonderful feeling imaginable. 71 flights are on the CVS for HDS and SAR so they did their job yes, and maybe its not AFCs all round but it is nice to know there is an organic system in place to help out those aircrew deployed away on the frontline.

Oggin.

Well done 71.

p.s. any sharks in that part of the world? That would make the appearance of a SAR asset even more comforting!

[Duncan Bucket]

I've seen Nobbys out that way, and I would be v happy to see the old girl loom over the horizon (although belive that one is all grey)

Echo your thoughts Oggin, just because the rescue was "easy" doesn't devalue it in anyway and it must have been a nice change to not be carrying the mail/VIP/stores.:ok:

We do like to dole out praise on this forum, particularly to our SAR heroes, but I don't think its like they ask for the adulation, is it?

Tourist, I wonder how grateful you would be to get plucked from the inky ogsplash after a ditching?

[Slow Hands]

Yep - have to agree with Tourist. All ok, physically, and we're all very glad. There but etc etc.

Bar talk suggests fuel.:mad:

[The Swinging Monkey]

Tourist,

Your comments are totally unwarranted and uneccessary, and frankly if you don't like reading about peoples relief and praise, then I would suggest you sod off.

Well done to ALL concerned, 771 and the SAR boys.

Kind regards
TSM

[totalwar]

In support of tourist this was a controlled ditching in a sea state 1 day VMC in the Gulf...Blue forecasting Blue....hardly taxing. The aircraft came to the hover whilst the crew abandoned the aircraft then the pilot ditched it....
The aircrew were then rescued from the sea from a boat which was from a merchant ship.
So, no QGM here Im afraid.

[Tourist]

I just happen to believe that this kind of overblown, and dare I say it American, thing devalues the truly praisworthy moments in life. Reminds me of national outpourings of grief at Diana etc. Makes me want to vomit.

[Slow Hands]

Mmmm. All the same, a rather nervous moment for any pilot I'd have thought, and especially if you've had to build up to it over a few minutes. So respect for getting away with it under any circumstances.

:ok:

[ImageGear]

In this case, where one's peers understand the implications of a controlled descent to the Og', a conscious decision to dunk it, and they then elect to offer "well done's" to the crew and thanks to the Almighty for a safe outcome, they are often received with the usual slightly embarrassed "it was nothing and the drills worked".

However, this does not undervalue the effort, skill and good fortune necessary to pull it off.

Would'nt want to spend anytime swimming deep water in that area, it is quite notorious for the larger variety of "Hungry Johnny".

A great team effort by all concerned, well done. :ok:

[totalwar]

Exactly. If there is be any praise for this unfortunate incident it should be to the pilot who carried out a text book controlled ditching.

[Mosspigs]

What’s wrong with praising professionalism and giving a written and public pat on the back when it’s earned? God knows the forces need a pick up now and again and if it comes within the flying community – so be it.

There is no such thing as praise fatigue so well done both crews. Much nicer to read a success story than a disaster!

[Excaliber]

So why exactly did it ditch in the shark infested waters off Oman?

[fagin's goat]

Agree completely with Tourist. Let us not be like Americans! The 71 cab did its job, crew back in their own bar, A25 being drafted (boys, make sure you get your story straight!), end of dit.

Believe there may be a whiff of something about this episode - and probably not one of AVCAT. Hope this rumour net lives up to its reputation. Never let the truth get in the way of a great story. There but for the grace of God....

[Duncan Bucket]

Exactly - text book ditching, hats off, well done 71 etc etc.....

But why the need for a text book ditching??

Rumours abound, and thats why we're here isn't it, so lets have it, why leave your Mk8 in that particular spot?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[fuel2noise]

Not sure the RN can aford to ditch Mk8 Lynxs or any aircraft at the moment. How many are there in the shed?

Why did they not make it back to the ship - no rumour on any aircraft snag - enough gas? Won't be the first or last time that ship and aircraft are not at the same point on the globe at sortie end! Would be interesting to know how close the nearest warship was to the datum. Also how long the crew had to wait for rescue.

[totalwar]

Why did they ditch the aircraft next to a merchant ship?

why didn't they think they could get back to the ship?

[Irish Tempest]

Hope they weren't carrying mail at the time!! Else they'd get a kicking from the lads on Nottingham... and yes its happened before:p

[portwait]

Read the first signal about it

ran out of fuel...............oops

wrong pigeons from a Mk7 (shouldn't the crew have had a better handle on it themselves?)

lets not blow sunshine up 771's proverbial, they winched the crew from a merchant ship.. any self respecting naval crew could have done that.

mind you there but for the grace of god... etc

[totalwar]

maybe the ship wasn't where is thought it was...maybe the ships computer system was telling lies...Maybe the T42 had its normal Nav slippage.....Now, thats never done that b4 has it !!!!!!!

[Duncan Bucket]

wrong pigeons from a Mk7 (shouldn't the crew have had a better handle on it themselves?)

Yes they should, but aren't we led to understand that the ASAC is the best thing in Naval Aviation at present? Surely they couldn't have messed up?? Ah I know, its optimised for tracking tanks in the desert not airborne contacts...........:E

[totalwar]

I used to fly the Lynx (now got a bigger one) but in defence of the Bagmen...its not their job to do the fuel checks of another aircraft.

Who does the fuel checks in your aircraft?

If you run out of fuel , you can look and point but at the end of the day there is only one person you should look at

[Duncan Bucket]

Totally agree about fuel checks, and know exactly what that sinking feeling is like when you arrive where Mum is........and she isn't. If they did run out of fuel, its them that carry the can, just trying to bring the bags in on the fun

Who does the fuel checks in your aircraft?

Everyone who doesn't fancy a swim.:ok:

[fagin's goat]

Top tip. Don't trust someone NOT strapped into YOUR aircraft to keep a handle on range/bearing to mother. Let others back you up but always keep something in the tank for the wife and kids let alone your OJAR and aviation career. Also, especially in silent or emcon restricted operations, a margin of go-juice is worth holding back in case the ship isn't at the planned rv.

Final (food for) thought. Currency. How many hours are crews getting right now? Even if hours on deployment are better than ashore I bet they are down from the rates considered prudent in the 60s, 70s, 80s and even 90s. If it was a slip up under emcon silence, how much silent work really goes on these days compared with Cold War ops.

[Divergent Phugoid!]

Lets all stop speculating and wait for the result of the BOI.

Glad to hear the crew are ok and the SAR boys managed to get to them and do their bit!!

[totalwar]

The SAR boys didn't get to them and do there bit....they were rescued by a ships boat from a ship

[spankymonkey]

Well done to the SAR/pinger boys. Whatever their contribution was, it appears to have been far more worthy than all of 'our' shiny arsed efforts combined.

Concur with Fagin that 15 hours seems to be the target rther than the minima. Hmm, Is this is a good thing? Discuss.

Spanks

[totalwar]

I think that this time last year 15 hrs was the limit but things have changed and most Lynx guys get a lot more. In fact they are positively encouraged to fly. Certainly on my outfit the average is over 20 per month.

[MaroonMan4]

Fagin,

I believe that you are the one that is closer to the truth. Whatever the BoI comes out with in the wash there is a worrying trend over the last few months that is sadly exceeding the usual DASC post leave increase in accident/incident statistics.

In the last week I have seen the MoD web report Tornado leaving runway, Army Lynx on SPTA and of course the Lynx ditching. Has anyone begun to correlate the reduction in flying hours (currency v competency), the reduction in exercises (i.e. lets not go to say the west coast of Africa for an exercise but lets stay in the familiar and well worked terrain of Scotland) and of course the continued exodus of experienced aircrew because the FRI fails to outweigh civilian balance of life and the Professional Employment Spine (Aviator) is not given early enough to prevent those with +2000-3000 hrs (rotary mates-not truckies)! and loads of 'I's' from leaving.

My point being, taking into consideration the number of reported incidents and accidents (and we all know that a number are sorted by post flight in house de-briefs or Unit Inquiries) I wonder if any of the hiearchy actually recognise the implications to Flight Safety by the cutting of Flying Hours and reduction of exercises, but still want the same quality, and Operational Performance.

Too many coincidences for my liking - even with something as simple as a running out of fuel we all know that there is usually a chain of events in there somewhere....I wonder if the BoI will link that chain back to Fleet and the Treasury?

And before the Staff Officers start to rant and rave, I wonder if they actually ask the question to themselves that maybe their 10 second signature to a policy paper (i.e. reduction in flying hours or spares support or exercises etc) would have any impact on the competency of front line crews.

[Dancing Bear]

Whilst I completely agree with Divergent Phugoid about waiting for the BoI results this is a "Rumour" forum so wild speculation should be encouraged, especially as the crew are all safe and sound and back in the clutches of the RN.

Well Done 771 for whatever your role was, obvioulsy tourist doesn't apppreciate the individual challenges of each SAR, nor the complexities of maritime winching, nor the reassurance factor of seeing the ace of clubs, credit where credit's due.

So, a controlled ditching near a Merch with mother almost 40 miles away? Seems to suggest fuel issues which is supported by the rumour network in the Dark Blue. Contamination?

Let rumour commence!

[Tourist]

"obvioulsy tourist doesn't apppreciate the individual challenges of each SAR, nor the complexities of maritime winching, nor the reassurance factor of seeing the ace of clubs, credit where credit's due."

As an ex 771 and Gannet man myself, I would say I have a fair understanding of the difficulties of taking off in a flat sea state, flying to a merchantman and lifting some crew from the deck in broad daylight. i suspect that the crew involved would be a tad embarassed about the attention. As to the relief of the crew at seeing the ace of clubs, I strongly suspect that as they stood warm and safe on the deck of the ship clutching a cup-a-soup, the thought of flying home to explain their sudden lack of their angry palm tree to the captain was not a positive experience at all!!

[totalwar]

Firstly I have to comment on the superb post by Maroonman4.....you have hit the nail on the head there fella...lets hope the BOI do indeed recognise it.

Secondly can we please please get away from the self admiration society and stop praising 771. Now, normally, when disembarked they perform heroic and admirable work helping the community of the SW. But on this occasion they conducted a winch transfer of 3 aircrew (trained in winching) from a big ship in a Sea state 2 on a Blue-Blue day - easy peasy.

Not sure the fuel was contaminated as that would have led to them ditching before they reached MLA. Nope, I think on this occasion they were hoodwinked into thinking mother was closer than she actually was. They T42 has a well documented problem of nav slippage and it wouldn't surprise me at all if the position the ship was telling the aircrew that they were at was completely B*****ks.

[Thomas coupling]

So far we have someone saying the crew ditched because they ran out of fuel, another saying they were picked up by a ship, then another states that 771 aren't even on the carrier.

What a shambles.

How about:

Lynx crew cocked up fuel calculations on a cavok day? ditched peacefully alongside the next nearest boat, boat helps them onboard. SAR cab launches from mother ship to merchant boat and winches up crew, RTB!

The merchant ship should have kept steaming south if you ask me...pilot might be better off down there :oh:

[totalwar]

Lynx crew cocked up fuel calculations
Not true my friend. They knew exactly how much fuel they had.

How about:

Navy ship cocks up navigation calculations resulting in the loss of a £7million aircraft

[Duncan Bucket]

They knew exactly how much fuel they had.

They should do, its easy to count to zero. But are you suggesting that knowing you've run out of fuel makes it all OK? The aim must still be to land on Mum wherever she may be, not monitor your fuel burn rate, right up until there is none left.

Lets face it, most Pussers grey funnel line steamers are not exactly 100% reliable when it comes to land on position
And there is more to this than the "T42 doesn't know where it is" argument.

Totalwar you have a very hyd3failure way of putting things don't you? Doh, another rebrief in bound on Monday:ugh:

[rafloo]

1. They didn't run out of fuel

2. They knew exactly how much fuel they had

3. when mum passed her position (Via a Bag) the ship was not where they it was supposed to be

4. The crew then decided that they couldnt make it and so in order to save 3 lives the AC decided to put the aircraft in the water and get out.

"Lets face it, most Pussers grey funnel line steamers are not exactly 100% reliable when it comes to land on position"

- actually the T22 and T23 are pretty good. But the T42 has a nav system which Vasgo de Gamma invented and then ditched because it was obsolete. The T42 is renowned for nav slippage, so much so that the last time I operated on a T42 (after a similar incident) I refused to go outside of 50 miles from the ship.

[Duncan Bucket]

Agreed, they are pretty good these days, but as I said, not 100% reliable, even 22s and 23s. That said, I understand there are procedures in place to mitigate against exactly this occurrence on the 42s. And if the plot slippage is a known problem, maybe a more prudent MLA could be applied - just a thought.

Still, its only a machine, and wether the SAR boys had any effect on procedings or not, the main thing is that the 3 crew are OK

[fagin's goat]

Thanks MaroonMan4 and TC for some reality. Ship not being in correct posn is a FAA occupational hazard; there are ways around this as many know. I re-stress the issue of aviation currency - not just the aircrew but also ship's command teams, particularly in the 'A' level stuff such as long-range silent ops.

PS For those not in the know, all RN helicopter crews are quite capable of picking up 3 bods from a ship.... not rocket science, just part of the job so let's leave the 71 heroics for when they do the business back at Culdrose.

PPS Anyone know why the Lynx had 3 POB? Staff/NFSF visit? A trapper in the 3rd seat would be fun would it not!!! Not sure if the Mk 8 can carry full fuel and 3 pob, but if not, wonder if the 3rd man's weight of AVCAT would have got the aircraft back to a deck??

[BATS]

Gents

Just remember that the incident is still sub-judice and subject to BOI findings. Those claiming to have seen the signals would do well to consider whether releasing the information is in the best interests of any of the individuals and units involved.

BATS

[gravanom]

Bit confused about all this 'nav slippage' talk about the ships - don't they use GPS?

[Navaleye]

I find it very hard to believe that they ran out of fuel due to a nav error by the T42. Its the Navigating Officer's responsibility to ensure mother is in a position to recover the ship's flight if no flight deck is to hand. The Lynx would be on the 1022 plot for almost it's entire flight. It may be true but if so someone should get a serious roasting for this.

Glad the crew are safe, not an easy decision to make.

[totalwar]

The Mk8 can carry 6 pax in the back. The Mk3 can carry up 9.

The guy in the back would probably have been the flight winchman, normally carried for SAR duties but also used as the Gunner and more often than not he wouild fly as the Extra pair of eyes on a surface search sortie.

[Thomas coupling]

Mind boggling: The RN in the 21st century unable to plot the position of thousands of tons of heavy metal - accurately.
I fly around with a £10,000 nav system which is accurate to 1 metre anywhere in the world????

When I flew S61's off canadian frigates in early 80's, we always catered for 'mum' buggering off the wrong way - it was called R-A-D-A-R.

What a load of bollocks you chaps talk!

Tell it as it is - professionals losing their edge.

[FJJP]

Gravanom raised a fair point. If I served on board a ship with a known dodgy nav system (slippage?...), I think I would have dug into my pocket and spashed out the £200 or £300 to buy a basic GPS - just to cross-check my kit.

Or is that beyond the wit of man? Anyone in the know care to comment and enlighten an ex-light blue?

[Spanish Waltzer]

With all this talk about the ships poor ability to know precisely where it is at any given moment, one has to wonder whether the same ships unfortunate meeting with a big rock off Australia not all that long ago is related.......

Out of interest does anyone in the know know whether the bag was simply relaying a radio message from ship to lynx or was it provididng the lynx with a FIS?

[jEtGuiDeR]

Spanish Waltzer

Different Lynx crew, different Ships crew, how could the incident with the Ship running aground and the Lynx ditch be related??

Purely a coincidence that it involved the same Ship I feel

Also, please expand on your point as to whether the 849 cab was relaying a message from Nottingham or providing a FIS??

Thanks

240

[Spanish Waltzer]

The gist of this thread so far is that the ship's equipment has known faults therefore changing the crews will make little difference.....

My question was that if the mk 7 was providing an information service it might have held the ship on its radar (I appreciate one is not a requirement of the other) and therefore been able to correlate the position given.

I suppose it also raises the question did the ship pass the correct position which the lynx crew then realised was too far away to make or was an incorrect position passed (due to plot slippage or whatever) which caused the lynx to fly the wrong way or think it required less fuel to get back to mum?

[BEagle]

From CinC Fleet:

"Dear Nelson. When you get home, indent for Qty 1 x Garmin GPSMAP 188 Sounder which combines chartplotter and sounder capabilities in one unit, with split-screen capability so you can view your position and sounder information at the same time. That way you will both know where you are AND know where the rocks are as it also has a world-wide marine database. Costs £660 incl. VAT.

Then teach your successor how to use it. Also how to use those jolly expensive wirelesses to tell people where you b£oody well are when asked!

Love,

Admiral Sir Hugh W B Keele-Haughle"

[Dancing Bear]

Tourist - Yr Pedigree noted and I guess a fair point, 3 guys winching trained by 1 crew winching trained on a gin clear day in flat calm seas, okay no medals earnt!

As difficult as it may or not be to believe there are known Nav difficulties on a Type 42 Destroyer and due to the age of data processing equipment onboard it is not possible to just plug extra kit in. That is a fact.

The very simplified overview of bolt on extras (such as GPS) is a consideration but one which the chart loving navigators "well it was like that in my day" are struggling to come to terms with. All of us in the military know we operate with outdated kit that could easily be improved with COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf) alternatives but our lords and masters (namely "Smart Procurement") prevent us from having the gear (wont withstand 4000 deg C or 250 G impact etc etc) by pushing the cost of a COTS item to something that is not justifiable.

The wise man with 20/20 hindsight will be able to see many ways when the BoI reaches it's result for the "Chain of Events" to have been broken in this case, they always can, however the real trick is to get the MoD to buy some relatively cheap kit (in comparisson top the loss of an a/c or even worse any of the crew) to prevent it happenning again. Even then it isn't always infalliable, coming across the Indian Ocean in the late 90's the ship kept increasing the difference between the a/c GPS posn and the Ships GPS Posn, ended up 25 miles out as someone had reset the bridge GPS to a local Indian datum!! Much hilarity as we hauled over the horizon into Male Harbour 2 hours early!! So educating our people to question things and think for themselves is about the best investment we can make.

God I'm begining to sound old!!

[BEagle]

If Capt Bligh managed to navigate an open boat 3618 nautical miles in 47 days after being cast adrift by the Bounty mutineers in 1789, how on earth can today's Royal Navy have 'known navigational difficulties on a Type 42'?

[Spanish Waltzer]

Reminds me of the old saying "bad workmen blame their tools"

[FJJP]

I remember when 100 Sqn were complaining about the Hawk nav kit in the concept of LL intercept training over the North Sea. The only bit of nav kit they had - TACAN - was no good at 500ft 50 miles off the coast. They got pi**ed off with the procurement chain and the Eng Authority not working at an answer that they requested the authority to purchase hand held GPIs.

They were refused, on the grounds that the units would have to be procured through the normal channels and trialled by Boscombe. Lead time was quoted in years, so they went out and bought several from Sqn funds anyway!

They didn't have to be accurate to the last metre, but at least it gave them a fighting chance to provide a reasonable position [I don't know how well they worked - I was not on the Sqn].

I am somewhat surprised that the subject of the dodgy nav kit was not discussed amongst the ships Execs. Even further surprised that the Exec Cadre did not do the same and buy one out of their own pocket, knowing just how much of a career stopper is running aground or getting lost.

[Spanish Waltzer]

Oh and just one more question......

If the ditching was controlled and the weather/sea state were epic then how come a navy helo with flotation gear attached sunk?

now there's one for the conspiracy theorists....!

[forwardassist]

Just got back from away and out of comms.
Glad to hear Lynx crew are ok - well done to all involved for getting them back to mum safe.

As for all those who are naysaying about the praise, if you haven't got anything nice to say, then please refrain from speaking. It may never have occured to you to thank someone just for doing their job, but it may make a difference to them. I'm happy to give praise rather than have to express condolence, as we have all done too often recently.

[FJJP]

Forwardassist:

Good point, well made.

Totally agree.

But I must ask you, most sincerely, to stop wasting bandwidth on common sense comment and let the armchair generals get on with the business of deciding the cause ahead of the BoI.

Praise in public, damn in private...

[Tourist]

forwardassisted with a hot crumpet,
Stick it up your @rse:p

[totalwar]

If the ditching was controlled and the weather/sea state were epic then how come a navy helo with flotation gear attached sunk? Known Lynx ditching characteristics I’m afraid. The aircraft had a seriously expensive MOD package during the 1980’s to increase the number of Flot bags from 2 upto 4. This has allowed the average crew an extra 15 seconds to abandon the aircraft before its on its way down to Davy’s. This aircraft apparently sank in 45 seconds.

[SilsoeSid]

Hopefully adding to the thread, ditching/floatation kits were discussed here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=142457&highlight=floatation) with this piccy.

http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~mwdeba20/pics/lynxfloat.jpg

and also here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=141197&highlight=floatation)

There is a film around showing the Lynx floatation kit trials that I once saw on a flt safety course or maybe it was at the dunker, Yeovilton. They weren't meant to keep her afloat, but to allow time for crew to escape. If all the bags went off ok then it was fine, but if not she behaved unpredictably. When she started to go down, it was 'shockingly rapid'.

[Excaliber]

Concur about Lynx flotation characteristics; even with all flotbags operating it is only marginally more buoyant than a brick. If it did stay afloat for 45s then I would say that that was a result of the controlled arrival on a nice flat sea state.

I think that the T42 nav problems being talked about actually refer to the slippage that occurs within the AIO system – the system that the AC will be using in the ops room and that data link will also be relying on (hence Mk7 too?). The OOW will be using GPS based navigation, so he/she can reasonably be expected to know that the ship is within 10 miles of where they said that they would be. There should have been checks/balances in place at least every 20 minutes in the ship and in the helicopter to ensure that all the errors are identified and eliminated. If the ship is outside outhouse then 2 way comms are established (regardless of emcon - unless at war), the helo is told and the ship should try and get back inside 10 miles.
If doing something with more risk eg bad weather, silent/darkened ops then you fly to a ramp fuel (to keep a bit of time in hand to search for mum).

But the BOI will look at all of this.

Unfortunately aircraft have run out of fuel before (eg the SHAR on the container ship also assorted helos in the FOST areas) and will no doubt happen again. I’m just happy that I’m not going to another service at St. Bartholomew’s.

[Paul McKeksdown]

Just a couple of points for the mix!

1. The Lynx has the well known floating characteristics of a large, heavy breeze block. The lovely piccie of the Lynx during the trails was taken after the aircraft was gently lowered into the water from a crane! The other snag with the rear bags is that they float very close (too close) to the hot exhaust i.e. 'Pop!'. Thanks Westlands.

2. The system for keeping up to date as to where mother is is well known to all who have used it before. It is fraught with errors but enables the ship to remain sneaky in our wonderful EW spectrum filled world. Want to know where the Brit is? Look for the hole in the EW cover. The plot is not just kept in the Ops room however! There should have been a double plot on the bridge, just a point that the BOI will surely find.

3. Gulf is a lovely place to do winching. Piece of P**s.

4. Generally the Bags won't give FIS, two types of NATO control for ASuW, you know what they are.

5. As far as I know there has been no talk of fuel contamination and the reasons behind ditching where they did will, no doubt, come out.

6. The level of currency of front line aviation has always been a problem in the age of sweeping defence cuts and the flying hours cutback but we must remember that the crews fly thousands of hours a year in total. A single cockup should not blacken the whole view of Lynx crews carrying out their duties in some of the most tricky conditions in the world.(Not talking about the Gulf areas here ;-))

Steel helmet on, wait for the flak!

[totalwar]

Good post from Paul M who by the large is correct. One small addendum...the piccie above is off a German Lynx which ditched in the Caribbean some years ago AND remained afloat long enough to be salvaged. Why? well it is generally considered that the main reason this one stayed on the surface was due to the cabin doors being shut and creating a bulkhead to ease the flow of water. It didn't make it watertight BUT it eased the flow and reduced the rocking.
I was always told that the main reason the Lynx floated like a brick was because of the nose. The area forward of the cockpit is empty except for a Radar scanner and once that cavernous area filled up with water the aircraft was only going to go in one direction.

[Paul McKeksdown]

Totalwar,

My apologies, you are quite correct, should have seen the black nose. Doh! :O

Should have figured it out by the fact that t'was in colour! Wastelands piccies were black and white, bless 'em (I think??? Who cares!).

However, the theory still stands, calm conditions on a blue blue day and it might, with the help of a few dolphins, jelly fish and any other aquatic beast helping, stay afloat for a few nano seconds :}

[orca]

As others have implied it's actually surprising that this doesn't happen more often. Basically we have machines and aviators relying upon those who can't think quicker than 16kts to get them home safely.

I almost had to park in the og-splosh when 'those that should know better' mis-plotted the reference point by 30nm, my radar clearly showed a contact at the imaginary position of mum and i was quite happy to recover in total emcon, so stun radar and off radio at 50nm. All that was there was a trawler! Well below div fuel by now.... so off i set for big merchant man i had seen on the way. Broke radio silence and flashed up the radar and found mum by luck rather than judgement. Landed 'a little low on gas'.

When i pointed out to 'those that should have known better' how a little bit of finger faff had almost got me soggy and lost an aircraft i was met with the quote "What do you want? An apology?" Oh, and i got a bolly for breaking radio silence.

The simple truth of the matter is that ship drivers won't understand until they are forced to drive a ship that can empty it's fuel tanks in just over an hour, then sinks as a result.

[mystic_meg]

My apologies, you are quite correct, should have seen the black nose

...or even the Iron Cross forward of the rotorhead?

The simple truth of the matter is that ship drivers won't understand until they are forced to drive a ship that can empty it's fuel tanks in just over an hour, then sinks as a result

How very true!....all the more reason to leave flying to aviators, sailing to matelots, and soldiering to squaddies....:ok:

[Paul McKeksdown]

Yeah, got a point, thats a bit of a give away too!

Didn't think the Lynx, even the Jerry one, t'was made of Iron though! Might have a hand in it's floating characteristics methinks!:}

[timzsta]

Glad to hear all well - since I left the mob in 2002 the number of RN aircrew killed in flying accidents is in double figures. Thankfully another three have not been added to the list.

I was an OOW on a Type 42 1999-2001. If I remember rightly the T42 nav problem was solved by ADAWS 2000 taking its positional data directly from GPS. There was still a problem with waypoints drifting very very slowly - about one nautical mile per hour. That is certainly not enough to end up with the cab ditching for lack of fuel.

Seems to me a more likely cause may have been somebody read back/written down a position incorrectly resulting in the ditching.

I ended up working on an FA2 squadron as a Freddie before I left. I felt I was more FAA then fish head by the end but sometimes aircrew can be a bit to quick to have a go at mum and fish heads, not to say the latter are always blameless.

Can't believe Charles Style made Admiral.

[fagin's goat]

Anyone who takes that amount of snuff probably deserves promotion to flag rank..........

[Slow Hands]

He's very focussed

[airborne_artist]

Eton and Cambridge still helps in this world, and CS is living testament to that.

[fagin's goat]

Back to the Lynx ditching. Has anyone got any update on who was the 3rd bod in the back?

Staff/Trapper/Flt Cdr/Passenger on a jolly/Mid/YO/??????? Not interested in an 'intelligent guess' - we can all do that - just fact or rumour please.

[totalwar]

believe it was the flight winchman. Its normal procedure for Lynx flights to take the flight winchman with them as he also acts as the gunner (unpaid, unwilling and little training).
As for the ADAWS problem. It is well documented that T42's have massive nav errors and it is not unusual for outhouse to bugger off on a course of its own never to be seen again. Happened to me many times and eventually I made local policy to remain within 50 miles of the ship. It also meant that the whole thing had to be updated every 20 minutes whiich is inefficiency gone bonkers...
No one seems to be placing any emphasis on the bag passing them duff info....was the bag to blame?
Maybe the BOI can make sense of this but at the end of the day if the outcome of this is a decent nav kit for the T42 then some good will have come of this.....although I doubt the funds will be found.

When i pointed out to 'those that should have known better' how a little bit of finger faff had almost got me soggy and lost an aircraft i was met with the quote "What do you want? An apology?" Oh, and i got a bolly for breaking radio silence.

Good point made by Orca.... I dismay at the amount of times I have recovered (just) and attempted to bollock the Navs/OOW only to be greeted by a blank look.....

[fagin's goat]

Totalwar, do you KNOW it was the Flt winchman or is that a guess?

It seems a little bit unlikely that the winchman/crewman/cabin gunner (does the M3 really fill this warfare role today?) would be carried on a long-range (encounterex?) sortie. Isn't his weight of fuel more important in the Mk8?

Nav accuracy in the T42 is a red herring. The ship has a perfectly decent and accurate GPS system. The fault, if any, may be in the procedures to ensure the nav plot and tactical plots remain locked together. That is a training/competence issue.

[Paul McKeksdown]

ADAWS and the type 42 have had this problem for years and it won't be resolved until (hopefully will be resolved with) the introduction of the T45. The GPS is not locked into the tactical plot, for some bizarre reason. Working before with a T42 we gave positioning in Lat/Long that was crossed into grid for the plot before being converted back to Lat/Long for the targeting computer, with ERRORS. There is training/competence issues here with cross referencing plots but when there are lives at risk and the problem is known how can this be a red herring. Nobody knows if the bag held the ship on radar or was relying upon position reports passed from the ship. T42's do not physically jump miles! Shame really, t'would be a huge saving in fuel bills!

What the Bag was doing? Thats a BOI thing I'm afraid, none of us have enough info to speculate on services provided and I'm sure we all agree that the aircraft captain would have kept a close eye on the plot as well.

The Lynx MK 8 can carry three people and full fuel even in the Gulf. This idea that it has the legs of a wasp is c&*p. The only issue that could cause a problem is single engine recovery to the deck, but hey that affects all helos in the area.

[totalwar]

The Lynx MK 8 can carry three people and full fuel even in the Gulf. This idea that it has the legs of a wasp is c&*p. The only issue that could cause a problem is single engine recovery to the deck, but hey that affects all helos in the area.

Very true.... the Lynx Mk8 does not have a problem operating in this area and if it did then it wouldn't be sent there.

It is normal procedure to fly with the winchman. Routine, normal, happens everyday....

[Widger]

I concur with Fagin's Goat. Don't blame the kit for operator error (if that is what it was). Nav errors of a few hundred's of yards do not cause this sort of incident. Reminds me of a similar incident several years ago when a Lynx landed in Sicily (i think) ran out of fuel and had to call for a fuel tanker. He got really slated at the time, but IMHO he should have been given a pat on the back for having the Cohones to not press-on. Red faces, but got the aircraft back safely.

[Paul McKeksdown]

Nobodys 'blaming' anyone, be it ship's crew, aircrew or equipment. All this is the rumour (!) mill with a bit of a discussion into a well known problem with certain ships ops software/routines and also the old age problem with outhouse procedures and emcon. This particular series of events will be old news to anyone who has flown the Lynx and I personally am amazed that there are these events surrounding yet another accident/incident. It's not exactly breaking news that the plot slippage leads to prob's getting the Lynx back on the deck. These events are often a catalyst to spark off discussion into old problems that never seem to go away.

The BOI will, hopefully, be able to corellate the facts and produce a professional finding based upon hard facts. If anyone has a problem with that then stop reading the Professional Pilots RUMOUR network.

Thankfully no-one was hurt in this accident, except perhaps a bit of professional pride, which allows this supposition to take place :-)

As to the witch hunt, who knows?

[totalwar]

Trouble is I can't help but agree with Paul McK....

I totally agree with the old "outhouse" chestnut. Iv'e never quite understood why we create an imaginary waypoint in the position of the ship at the start of the sortie when what we actually need to know is the position of the ship at the end of the sortie...bizarre....

[Excaliber]

Fagin - It was the winchman, have seen the signal

[Witraz]

Had a beer with the lads involved last night in Dubai. Very interesting to hear their story. Equally interesting to read some of the comments here. Not something I am sure any of us would like to experience. Like always, don't speculate and wait for the facts before judging.........

[sweep complete]

"Don't Speculate".... get a grip man, it'a a RUMOUR network.

Main thing is everyone is all right, so lets have some RUMOURS.

[totalwar]

Exactly....whats the point of this site if we can't speculate....thats what its here for....

However, you should take care over your comments as it could incriminate people or upset families of those involved. Thankfully in this case there were no injuries except to the pride of the bagman who sent a perfectly innocent lynx guy down the wrong path.

[Oggin Aviator]

you should take care over your comments as it could incriminate people or upset families of those involved. Thankfully in this case there were no injuries except to the pride of the bagman who sent a perfectly innocent lynx guy down the wrong path.
So you are happy to incriminate the bagman are you :mad: without backing up your statement - do you really know what happened?

Whenever I fly from the ship I bloody well know where mother is all the time, whether as a contact on radar or a no duff position from outhouse. I am not relying on anyone else - a second set of info to back up what I already know is nice for that warm and fuzzy but I don't rely on it. As aircraft captain I am responsible for getting back to the ship and no-one else. And yes, I have done emcon recoveries with no comms or radar at night from a long way out which wouldnt have worked without basic navigation skills, some semblance of SA and a ship doing what it said it would.

I'm sorry, harsh as it sounds, if you run out of go juice you have to seriously ask what was going on in the cab at the time, whatever the contributory factors. IMHO in peacetime there is no excuse for losing an aircraft due to running out of fuel.

Why dont we just wait for the BOI to release its findings. Then we can try to learn from any mistakes that were made to prevent any reoccurrence.

Oggin

[Spanish Waltzer]

total...

"However, you should take care over your comments as it could incriminate people or upset families of those involved. Thankfully in this case there were no injuries except to the pride of the bagman who sent a perfectly innocent lynx guy down the wrong path."


so who is being incriminating now towards the bagmen....do you know for certain that it was the bags fault and that the lynx guy was perfectly innocent?

edited because oggin got in there first!!! Great minds eh!!

[Splash Coxswain]

That's 'total' for you - mouth - foot - enter = bollox. He and his alter ego Hyd3Failure are just 2 of a kind!

[vecvechookattack]

Totally concur with oggin....He has hit the nail on the head...however there are a couple of flaws in his ramblings...First one is

a ship doing what it said it would As previously stated this was a T42 and therefore the ship thought it was with outhouse but actually was some distance away.



I had a chat with the guys who are safely back at Yeovilton (thankfully)... they seem confident in the fact that they did everything as they had been taught to do.

[Oggin Aviator]

I've seen the gucci nav kit on the bridge of the CVS - has this been fitted to the T42?

I cant believe in this day and age, even reading the posts on this thread, that a ship can lose itself such that it gives incorrect brg/ranges to aircraft fom ref points. Its not really rocket science is it?

[Paul McKeksdown]

Totalwar,

Rash thing to say, rumour is one thing, out and out accusation is another.

Simple rule in this job is 'look after number one'. I'm sure the Lynx crew had no reason to doubt the positions being passed but in my experience that warm comfy feeling only comes from knowing exactly where mum is myself. If that means not ID'ing that last contact then so what! Theres always another day. Coming back to the deck with both fuel low lights blazing is never an ideal captaincy scenario especially when you've only got one place to go and for most of the sortie they ain't talking to you!

The Bag was providing some sort of service, exactly what we don't know but to slander the boys based on speculation is crazy! Rumour is fine but don't go slingin s%^t without damn good evidence.

Alright Oggin, still goin' :ok:

[Oggin Aviator]

Nice post, particularly as you have extensive experience of both platforms being talked about. Didnt I see your name in a glossy company publication recently, in an article by a new joiner ?

and yep, still goin' !

:ok:

[timzsta]

As I said before I was an OOW on a T42 (HMS Exeter) and was also the FC1 from Sep 98 - Mar 02. We had a Lynx 3 for about 2/3 of that time, with a very experienced Observer and an RAN Pilot (QHI qualified). We were also fortunate enough to have a very competent AC and a good CHOPS(R).

I cannot recall one incident where we had a problem with outhose wandering off on its own and I can only recall a couple of instances where mum was more then 10 miles from outhouse (which is not a problem as long as somebody tells the aircraft).

So what I am saying is that in my opinion this is either down to an operator error at some point, either on the ship, the bag, or amongst the Lynx crew.

Nothing wrong with making a mistake, we all make them. The trick is to learn from it and not make the mistake again. My worry has been for some time now that training and currency are no longer adequate in both the FAA and the fleet in general - which might explain what I believe to be a marked increase in flying accidents in the FAA over the last 5 years.

[Bag Man]

WITHOUT PREJUDICE

Why don't we try to get our heads out of the cockpit and off bridge and ask why the CTG were exercising in total emcon silence? Are we still expecting the fight a cold war in the GIUK gap?

I blame the adults - again!

[AllTrimDoubt]

Timzsta - Good points. we have (for years) lived off the fat of people's previous experience gained through training and then practice and exposure to the job. Perhaps now the cuts and reductions sufered by those at the sharp end might be coming home to roost.

Flight Safety talk about "breaking the chain". I've no doubt the BOI will identify such a chain of events and point out where mistakes were made. Doesn't help those guys and gals trying to cope at the moment.

That "warm fuzzy feeling" that anyone who has operated over the water away from Mum likes to feel can only be engendered by experience. And top kit.

[submariner]

My best wishes go to the crew of Navy 417 and I am glad that they are O.K. I was a pax in the same helo with same crew previously.

There has been a lot of speculation, but there are other elements which have still to be factored in, which I am sure will come to light at the BOI.

I believe that the crew did an excellent job under the circumstances with no injuries and hardly getting wet.

As for the use of Emcon policy, no matter what the circs are surrounding its use at the time, surely it is professional to practice its use during an exercise in any event.

[Taco Bill]

I have twice lost the ship on dark, Emcon silent nights when mum (surprise surprise) wasn't where she said she was, and I have to agree, it is a fairly outdated procedure in todays modern warfare scenarios.
It certainly focusses the mind and makes you allow that much extra fuel for the wife and kids when planning your recovery. But thats the point, its been happening for as long as I can remember so you factor it into your captaincy decision making.

I would have to disagree with you submariner - the lynx crew did not do an excellent job; they, and probably all the other players in this incident, cocked up to some extent, resulting in the loss of their aircraft.

[Quax200]

Unfortunatly the German Lynx was lost, it sank when the boat arrived and they tried to pick it up. But before it was floating for about an hour.
And for the letters on board, the Dutch Lynx, which winched them up, had to throw their load overboard to be able to make the rescue.

But at least the water was warm.

Greets, your Jerry

[Paul McKeksdown]

Jerry,

Obwohl Ich weiss dass in Deutschland es viele Lynx gibt, Ich kann kaum nicht glauben dass unter die namen ASUW du wirfst auch das hubschrauber hinein!!!!

Geiz ist Geil!!!

As to the Nottingham Lynx, IMHO the buck stops with the aircraft captain who is ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE for the correct carrying out of the mission as tasked and the safety of the aircraft and aircrew. The nav system cockups are well known and, as such, I personally would have had a far tighter grip on mother. The experience/currency levels of front line aviation crews in the light of current flying hours cutbacks is, obviously, a growing concern.

What mitigation might come out remains to be seen. The most important factors are:
1) The crew are safe and sound
2)Lessons be learned ON BOTH SIDES of the aviation fence. Give the aircraft and the ships better nav kit. GIVE US AT LEAST A F&^KIN TACAN!!!!!!

Cheers

Rant complete, retreat to cave!! Grunt!

[totalwar]

totally concur with .Mck....this has happened before and will happen again and again until we stop relying on people with a piece od paper and a pencil.

[fagin's goat]

Sorry submariner. What was excellent about the job the crew did?

They ditched a fully serviceable Lynx Mk8 (there is not a shed full of them....) Perhaps the ship wasn't within 10 miles of recovery position, perhaps they got a false warm fuzzy feeling second hand from a bag but at the end of the day it comes down to the crew of the Lynx to get back with enough gas (Minimum Landing Allowance) to account for the errors in the system.

Still big questions suround the issues of currency and REAL standard of work-up between ships and their flights. Ask anyone in the RN Lynx community how many hours they did in the last year - and also how many of those were embarked.

[Bag Man]

submariner

U miss the point.

There is a difference between 'training' and 'practice'.

[vecvechookattack]

Still big questions suround the issues of currency and REAL standard of work-up between ships and their flights. Ask anyone in the RN Lynx community how many hours they did in the last year - and also how many of those were embarked

Im sorry fella but this incident has nothing to do with currency. I know Nottingham flight well and also know that they were fully worked up and were current, qualified and capable.

Agreed, flying hours were reduced last year and so the Lync community took it upon themselves to ration their hours and only fly good quality training. All erroneous tasks were politely refused and there was a lot of emphasis taken on quality flying training. Simulators were utilised as best as they could and during the later half of last year the restriction on flying hours was removed and so ALL crews had ample opportunity to continue with quality training.
The lasck of flying hours had nothing to do with this incident nor the previous incidents when a Lynx ran out of fuel. What could be more worrying is that (although Im not exactly sure), the only RN aircraft to run out of fuel on a regular basis (once a year) is the Lynx. Perhaps the MLA is wrong? Perhaps we train our people incorrectly...who knows?

[Bag Man]

vec

'the only RN aircraft to run out of fuel on a regular basis (once a year) is the Lynx'

Is it always the same crew?

:}

[fuel2noise]

So why then did a Lynx flight have an allowance of 10 hours for a recent JMC .... plenty of hours for quality training? I think not!

[swampy_lynx_puke]

Losing an aircraft under what should have been better than normal conditions is careless at best...

Three cockups happened simultaneously:

1. The Lynx crew lost track of Mother
2. Mother lost track of her Lynx
3. The Bag lost SA of the Lynx relative to Mother

Given the generally excellent nav kit on all three - all have GPS, the fact that all three are considered worked up and reasonably experienced, the chain of events leading to this accident may not appear so simple in the end.

Ultimately it will be (as it ought to be) the a/c captain who will carry the can - he lost his a/c, which was fully serviceable, by allowing it to run out of petrol.

As for the chimps who question the need to operate EMCON silent, they might like to think about what all these assets were doing at the time. It's not rocket science to figure out why you might not want people to know that you are in the vicinity in that part of the world.

[Bag Man]

slp

You livin in a different world to me fella!

Tell me, how do you achieve NEC in emcon silence? Cos it beats my tiny brain.

[airborne_artist]

Tell me, how do you achieve NEC in emcon silence? Cos it beats my tiny brain.

Semaphore flags or Aldis lamps, perhaps?

[Bigtop]

Let's face it - someone f*&ked up. Whether you believe it to be the Lynx crew, the bridge/ops room of the 42, or indeed the bag. That said I'm sure we've all been there in different circumstances and lets hope we learn something from this.

But what of the future - having alighted safely on the water I understand it still wasn't an easy task egressing from the aircraft as it decided to head towards the ocean floor.

With todays modern plug and play technology and the ongoing search for new helos to replace the FF/DD flts the future focus must surely be for a crash worthy aircraft that has better floating characteristics.

Afterall an aircraft is merely a platfrom to bolt sensors and weapons to so does it matter what it looks like or what its called so long as we survive the unforeseen when it comes our way.

And........ box!!!:E

[vecvechookattack]

so does it matter what it looks like

Ha, Gotya....you must be a Merlin bloke!!!!

[totalwar]

You guys seem to placing a lot of emphasis on the EMCON policy. However, back in the 70's n 80's we used to operate totally and strict emcon silent, particularly when conducting TAOPs. During some patrols we even had to remain in bed to maintain the silence...too noisy everyone walking about the ship. And in those days we didn't lose an aircraft due to it running out of fuel.

[Bag Man]

totalwar

You make me giggle. What has the SOPs of the 70s and 80s got to do with the 21st (repeat 21st) century.

Use your grey matter on this one. TRAIN AS YOU EXPECT TO FIGHT. When we expected to fight in EMCON silence we would all train in EMCON silence (and make very few mistakes - which is what training is about). Don't know of any sane person that expects to fight in EMCON silence these days - L16 would be more of waste than the Merlin. Ever heard of a PPLI? It's useful for CID.

Are the Lynx community still training to find Krivaks using Orange Crop? NO (so I am told).

[totalwar]

Are the Lynx community still training to find Krivaks using Orange Crop? NO (so I am told).
Yeah, we are actually. Well not really Krivaks, more like Udaloys and Sovremenny's. Why ? shouldn't we be?

[Widger]

This is not fair....Bag and Pinger having a fight on at least 3 forums...don't be greedy chaps!

[Duncan Bucket]

Widger

Sorry old bean, totalwar has admitted in a previous post to being a Lynx puke (and training to find Udaloys and Sovremennys using Orange Cr&p), and is therefore not a Pinger. Still fun to watch him and Bag Man sparring.

Back to thread topic though, if the ASaC is L16 fitted, why the fubar with the Lynx Mum's position?

[totalwar]

What if the bag was tracking 2 L16 tracks and they then merged and crossed over and the computer tracked the wrong contact?

[airborne_artist]

During some patrols we even had to remain in bed to maintain the silence...

Totalwar is clearly BuffHoon in disguise - no naval type would ever stay "in bed" to maintain silence - unless he was biting on the pillow ...

[engineer(retard)]

And who was driving the boat if they were all in bed.

[Widger]

Duncan Bucket,

I'm not so sure..in a previous post TW stated.

Hey...I work for a living...well if you can count flying one of Her Majesties best ASW platforms working...Nope, Im here....tucked up safe and sound in Kernow

So he must be a Merlin Pinger! Or is he just trying to duck and weave.


Computer says no!

[Duncan Bucket]

Yes I spotted that too, but dismissed it as Chaff Distraction. Who knows, but his ramblings are still priceless. Funniest thing I heard this week is that on another thread someone accused him of missing out the nke from his name.........laughed so hard I nearly bought a round:ok:

[totalwar]

Being safely tucked up in cornwall I can sit here and chuckle at my comrades. However, when I was on a Lynx flight things were very different.

[ZH875]

when I was on a Lynx flight things were very differentI bet it was, but at least they knew who the Tw@t was

[vecvechookattack]

who? you? when did you fly in a Lynx? Looking at your name you are likely to be a C-130 Loadmaster so maybe you should leave this thread to real aviators and go and count some blankets.

[engineer(retard)]

"Being safely tucked up in cornwall"

He has gone back to bed again.

[Duncan Bucket]

Being safely tucked up in cornwall I can sit here and chuckle at my comrades. However, when I was on a Lynx flight things were very different

Why? Was it not safe on a Lynx Flight?

You'll have to do better tan that H3F. There are actually very few ex Lynx blokes "safely tucked up in Cornwall", in fact, 6 that I can think of, very much doubt you are one of them.

vecvechookattack has a familiar tone too. Will we soon see the demise of Totalwar and the increase in boll$x from vvha?

[Oggin Aviator]

Chaps

We in the FAA are very proud of that fact. The last couple of pages are showing that we are lowering ourselves to the childish behaviour normally seen by the Crabs. It doesnt really matter who H3F is, or where he is, or what he flies or doesnt fly. He is entitled to an opinion and if you dont like what he says just ignore it - dont rise to the bait and make us all look like petty minded morons.

Back to the thread I say - last time I looked the Lynx wasnt fitted with JTIDS therefore there would not be a PPLI associated with that track. Also a PPLI will not cross over onto another track as it is platform specific. So totalwar's last but one post is not valid - it simply would not happen. Tha Bag may have an air track which they are pushing out over L16 and I think what he is trying to say that track identity between 2 tracks (both being reported over L16) has swapped in a crossing situation which I guess is a possibility (certainly is in the E2C).

Oggin

[Bag Man]

Oggin

Let's wait for the BOI fella.

[totalwar]

only 6 Lynx guys in Cornwall? I reckon there are at least double that, if not as close as 20.

[Duncan Bucket]

Oggin

We in the FAA are very proud of that fact.

What fact?

dont rise to the bait and make us all look like petty minded morons

Why not? Isn't this site all about Rumour, conjecture, banter and even moronic petty mindedness. Stop taking yourself so seriously. If you're interested in the facts, read the signals and wait for the BOI findings, otherwise (as you already have) join in the supposition and guesswork based on rumours.

[Oggin Aviator]

Bagman

I wasnt trying to say what happened - I havent got a scooby - All I was saying is that track identity can swap when automatic tracking is being used. Whether it happened in this case or whether not I dont know nor, to be honest, care - yet, ... as I am quite happy to wait for the BOI.

Duncan - proud of the fact that we are in the FAA. Read the signals - I wish! And again I havent the slightest clue about what happened to the Lynx (apart from the fact that it ditched because it ran out of petrol) or what was going on in any other platform at the time so I havent really joined in on the supposition. The GOO is a bloody long way from where I am at the moment so quite rightly I am not qualified to comment on what happened. If you guys want to slag each other off then go ahead, reminds me of happy hour in the datum before 705 went up north!

[Duncan Bucket]

705 in the Datum..............ah halcyon days. And did you not enjoy those times??:ok:

[Oggin Aviator]

Oh I did enjoy those times very much - a Friday evening after the stresses of a week of flying training - an excuse to drink far too much, stitch up your mates by massively cheating at liar dice (the whole point of the game!) and bantering senseless anybody and everybody. But ... at least it was all open, people not hiding behind an anonymous login like this place. I guess now with the revamped PC Datum looking like a trendy bar people cant wait to get out and get online for their banter quotient!

[lostintranslational]

Are the Lynx community still training to find Krivaks using Orange Crop? NO (so I am told).

Not sure, but it would appear that the bag men are still trying to find T42s using something far more capable. I await the wrath of Oggin and Bag Man to rain upon me (should your technology manage to find me!):p

[Bigtop]

VVHA,

Gotcha - you must be a Merlin bloke!
Remember the A25 song? Pick an aircraft from there and you'll be nearer the mark!

[vecvechookattack]

apart from the fact that it ditched because it ran out of petrol No it didn't. The aircraft did not run out of fuel. It has probably got a load of fuel left in it, where ever it is.

[Oggin Aviator]

OK, point taken, I'll rephrase that:

"Apart from the fact that it was about to run out of petrol."

I would add some more thoughts but you would all construe this to be putting my oar in before the BOI results come out. I guess my 13 years and 2000 hours plus in maritime aviation doesnt really count, so I wont bother. Handbags - maybe, however on reflection the crew dont really deserve wild opinions being bandied about by people (like me) with no knowledge of what really happened.

Au revoir.

Oggin

[rafloo]

But surely thats the reason for this web site. Its a rumour network and if you hear a rumour then feel free to spread it around a bit on here.

Never let the truth get in the way if a good dit.

[fuel2noise]

rafloo - spot on.

[rafloo]

Thank you.....now, when is the BOI gonna report on this incident....?

[Bigtop]

Haven't we done their job for them here........

Aircraft flies....aircraft runs out of petrol...aircraft stops flying!! A25 to follow.

[Razordome]

This whole thread is making me laugh. Lets face it, most of these accidents are made up of lots of avoidable mistakes. My old, old boss ditched a bag, even though lots of people should have seen the mistake unfolding (out of gas - crossed tracks). They all (the bag, lynx and ship) contributed to this accident in some way. The bag is drowned in information, the Lynx is staved of it and the ship probably does't have the experience to know how to use it. There are loads of mistakes the bag could have made (crossed tracks, no mode 2, reading the wrong info etc...) I am sure the lynx boys will get some critisism for running their fuel that close to MLA and the ship, probably for something to do with outhouse.

I have seen far worse mistakes, luckily some one noticed them early enough. Still, love a bit of rumour control. Are there any Naffi Managers here??

AND ANOTHER THING !!

Whether your a filthy pinger, lynx puke or godly bagman, never think you are any different to those involved in this accident. Bet you have all scre%^"d up at some time, luckily someone else noticed. I have!

Sorry, I have had a bottle of red and now feel wise all of a sudden? Very dangerous...

[totalwar]

Good points made by Razordome...I'm sure we can all say "there but for the grace of god" etc etc. and like he says...No one got hurt and many lessons "identified" .

There are rumours battling around VL that in this case however the Lynx guys will be assuming the "Off Caps" position.. I've heard that high ranking people want to blame someone and are baying ....

Now that worries me a little. Especially with the points made by Razor. We have all probably made mistakes...some we got away with...some we didn't. However, to throw the book at anyone for making a mistake will only bread a culture of deceit, sweep it under the carpet, keep it in the squadron, don't tell anyone etc etc. I strongly believe that the open and honest reporting policy we employ is the backbone of the Fleet Air Arm. Anything beyond a cockpit article is far too much.

A friend of mine works for the airlines (ex RN) and he mentioned the difference between the airlines and the military is that in the Airlines when there is an incident the company are happy to find out WHAT happened and leave it at that. In the military we seem to be breeding a culture of blame. We must have some one to blame and throw the book at....

Interesting concept.....


Oh and for Bigtop....the aircraft DID NOT run out of fuel.

[Navaleye]

A Lynx has a c260nm range and 2hr+ endurance. As I said earlier it would have been held on 1022 plot for almost its entire flight and been on the 996 for a good portion of it. I suspect someone been bloody careless in Nottingham's ops room. We'll see when the BOI reports.

[Oggin Aviator]

How can you state it would have been on the 1022 plot the whole time? Thats a huge assumption. If it was at considerable distance, down in the weeds, none of the ships sensors would have it. Basic radar theory dictates this. Reason for organic AEW etc etc blah blah. Not having a go but asking for clarification.

[Razordome]

260nm depends on lots of other factors. Lets say it was 260nm, so 130nm radius. For the ship to see the lynx at this range, the lynx would need to be just over 10,000 ft up. I would guess he was at 50-2500 ft.

This is getting into the weeds now, but to be visible on the 1022 (or 996) radar at 48nm from mum (think this was the actual pigeons), the lynx would theoretically need to be at 1521 ft (ish). My guess is that the Mk8 would conduct surface search at above this, with the PIDD, so the ship probably did have the lynx on 996 and/or 1022.

But, then again, the ships radars detecting the lynx is very different from them being bothered about tracking it and certainly far removed from concerns about its fuel, pigeons or the fact that mum is probably running in the opposite direction (ship SOP).

Another Wild A&$e Guess !!

[jEtGuiDeR]

Oggin, you beat me to it!!
Potentially 100+nms from mum and down at 50 feet. No chance in the ship's radar holding that
Also, what if the ship is emcon silent??

That aside, even if you are operating in emcon silence, the point at which either the Aircrew or Ops Room on mum realise something is not right, surely that is the time to break silence and get everyone heading in the right direction to avoid tears and "off caps"

[Vectac Widger]

My old, old boss ditched a bag

"Sounds like a lamentable lack of airmanship to me" :

706 Re-enactment of Battle of Taranto, Taranto Night dinner at Cudrose, c.1987. Belated apologies to said sqn boss but I believe this is as true now as it was then.

[Navaleye]

Unless its hunting a russian whale why would it be that low? I read it was doing a surface search rather than an ASW mission (maybe duff info) so I don't think it would be at ultra low level for the entire sortie. You'd be amazed what 2,500ft can do to a radar picture! I would expect to hold a Lynx at 5k ft at 70 miles+ and used to track SK AEWs even further than that. The Navigating Officer would normally be responsible for keeping tags on the ships flight at all times and for making sure that the ship was in a postion to recover the helo when required.

[totalwar]

Some good points being made here but its clear that the T42 WAS indeed Emcom silent and so didn't hold anything on Radar although why on earth a T42 with the RCS of a block of flats needs to be Emcon silent is beyond me.

The Lynx was on a surface search and as such would be operating at 50' (100' at night). Why do Lynx flights operate at 50' - Gawd knows...seems blooming daft to me ... but they do.


On another note: Does anyone think it is time to change this antiquated "OUTHOUSE" procedure that no one understands and keeps getting people into trouble?

[jEtGuiDeR]

2,500ft would make a Lynx a very nice target for a ship launched SAM, hence the need to fly so low whilst searching for contacts.
Also the Flight LAC is responsible for keeping tabs on the endurance of the aircraft, the ships position from outhouse, and if possible, the position of the aircraft. Thus leaving the Navigator to avoid ships, reefs and large islands (or not)!!

Totalwar, OUTHOUSE is antiquated, but as long as mum remains within 10nm of it, there is no reason for it all to go wrong. In these days of GPS, the old "plot slippage" problem 42's used to suffer has been sorted. Also the 20 minute aviation cycle helps safeguard against OUTHOUSE wandering off unnoticed. Maybe in the future, with more and more data link fitted helicopters being used, a more reliable procedure could be used.

[totalwar]

the old "plot slippage" problem 42's used to suffer has been sorted I'm sorry mate but from where I sit in my ivory tower and reading incident signal after incident signal but the T42 slippage is very much still here and probably will be until the last one leaves.

[EmergingCyclogenesis]

I wonder if anything changed between briefing and sortie execution? Does getting a service from a bag lull even the most professional aviator into a false sense of security? Already read lots about keeping a few kilos for the wife and kids.

[Bigtop]

Totalwar,

Oh and for Bigtop....the aircraft DID NOT run out of fuel.

Mere semantics - if you don't have enough gas to get where you're going then of course you may elect to take the early decision to ditch rather than flame out. But at the end of the day they WOULD HAVE RUN OUT if endurance does not match Speed/time/distance etc.

I speak from experience - though fortunately in my case the mis-idented 'mother' was another warship and although not capable of taking us on the back end did provide a HIFR until we sorted the plot out!

Let's hope rather than a witch hunt that the lessons will be learnt and improvements made to the inadequate kit that has been alluded to in this thread to ensure it won't happen again.

[Arkroyal]

totalwar,A friend of mine works for the airlines (ex RN) and he mentioned the difference between the airlines and the military is that in the Airlines when there is an incident the company are happy to find out WHAT happened and leave it at that.Which company does he work for?

Most simply fire you, pretty well on the spot.

Razordome, was your old boss's ditching in OS 1985?

If it was, I nearly joined him in the oggin on the same exercise. HDS flight on RFA Fort Austin. Wessex five with no navaids except DR plotting by the crewman. RFA not fitted with any kind of data link, so invisible to rest of group, and not sticking to the brief.

If the refuellers on Invincible had seen my 'throat cut' action, and not put a few hundred too many pounds on, I'd have been swimming too.

Best laugh, when we'd eventually found her, with a reported endurance of minus 2 minutes, she asked for a radar approach for training.

[Razordome]

Ark Royal - Yes I think that was probably about the right time (1985). Not 100% but until Telic it was the only real bag incident.

[totalwar]

Does getting a service from a bag lull even the most professional aviator into a false sense of security?
that may have been the case. Following its introduction we have been bombarded with facts and figures about the ASAC and how good it was. How it could track cars speeding along the A30 and how good the MMI was. I think many people will think twice now though.

and despite how often you word it or twist the sentance...the aircraft didn't run out of fuel and the charges won't say that it did.


Ark ---- Thomas Cook.

[fagin's goat]

Totally agree with Ark. Airlines do not shrug these sort of things off. In a similar situation you would be fired instantly (BALPA pleading your case or not!). As an aside, in commercial operations fuel is always tight cos it is 'bad' to carry around non-profit making loads and every pound saved could go towards another fare-paying bum on a seat, etc, etc. It is routine to land with what approximates to MLA - yes I know that is to a fixed airfield but there are often 'events' that can errode the fuel remaining!

Perhaps it would be refreshing to see some heads roll on this one? Perhaps it would drive home the reallity of ditching a multi-million pound aircraft at a time when defence can't afford a new box of paperclips? Perhaps it keeps happening because there is an unspoken 'you can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs' mentality - the proper conduct of embarked aviation gets lost in the noise and excitement of the exercise. Flying is never 'for exercise'!!

[FJJP]

I remember an incident on OS85 [ think it was..] where a Canberra orbitted mother at 12,000ft, squawking like a Christmes tree and transmitting every couple of minutes, to act as a homing beacon for a SK well out of radar/radio range. It landed with 'oh sh*t' fuel first pass on a cleared deck...

Anyone remember?

[Bigtop]

Well, lets stoke up the rumour mill cos if it's in the Currant Bun then it must be true.

There in all its half page glory today for everyone to see:

'Lynx Runs Out of Fuel' - though the article does go on to perhaps lay the blame at whoever forgot to fill the tanks up.........!!!

Here\'s the embarassing link:

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005151940,00.html

[R3Hard]

And we hoped that this had gone away........................

[petefreak]

Articles like this make the Navy look like idoits, especially when its a load of rubbish

[jEtGuiDeR]

Pete, i'm guessing the spelling mistake was intentional!! :O

[N Arslow]

You have to love the Sun and all those who buy it.
Support that mindless ignorance.

[Razor61]

HMS Nottingham home from deployment 07.04.05 15:38 -Navy News...

Type 42 destroyer HMS Nottingham has returned to Portsmouth after an eventful deployment to the Middle East.

Although she was part of the Marstrike 05 task group, led by HMS Invincible, the ships of the group have also had their own furrows to plough.

It is Nottingham’s first major deployment since she emerged from refit following her grounding on Wolf Rock off the coast of Australia in 2002.

Only three people remained on board who were with her at the time of the incident, and 70 per cent of the ship’s company are in their first draft in their current rate.

Their enthusiasm for the job was sorely tested by the rescue mission flown by the ship’s Lynx helicopter before Nottingham sailed through the Suez Canal on the way out.

The warship received a Mayday from the mv Vigla, saying the ship had exploded following a fire and was sinking off the coast of Malta in severe weather conditions.

As Nottingham ploughed through very rough seas towards the stricken ship at 24 knots, her Lynx flew ahead to see what could be done.

On arrival at the scene the helicopter found two large cargo vessels attempting to shelter a number of people in the water, the stricken ship having disappeared.

The Lynx, piloted by Lt Phil Richardson, battled 100 miles in difficult conditions to try to rescue the men, but their cumbersome cork lifejackets made it difficult to pluck them from the sea, and they were already in poor condition.

The Lynx, dubbed Strongbow, was forced to return to the destroyer as she had reached the limit if her endurance, so a liferaft was dropped in the hope the sailors could clamber aboard.

But by the time the destroyer reached the scene, around daybreak, there were still four men to be seen in the water.

Nottingham’s sea boat was launched, requiring great skill in the rough conditions, but all they could do was recover the four bodies.

“In some respects the guys who brought them back on board were glad they could do it,” said the ship’s Logistics Officer, Lt Cdr Gillian Russell.

“We went into Limassol, where the bodies were sent out from the ship.

“We had the colours at half-mast, piped them off the ship and everybody who could be spared was there on the flight deck to pay their respects.

“It brings it home to everybody on board that it a hostile environment we operate in.”

That sentiment was reinforced early last month when Nottingham’s Lynx made an emergency landing on the sea while carrying out a surveillance sweep in the Indian Ocean; the aircraft quickly sank but the three-strong crew escaped unhurt and were picked up by another helicopter and returned to the ship.

[rafloo]

Hang on....is that right?

"but their cumbersome cork lifejackets made it difficult to pluck them from the sea"

Are you saying that the Royal Navy cannot pick civilians out of the sea becasue the Board of trade lifejacket is TOO BIG ???? alarm !!!!

Is this the same with the RAF Seaking helicopters?

[L1A2 discharged]

Probly not BoT jackets, especially if non-uk registered.

[vecvechookattack]

That would make more sense then. I hear on the grapevine (which is a long one down here in kernow) that the Lynx pilot has been sacked.....sounds a bit like the days prior to PACE when the standard phrase from the Jimmy's table was ..... "wheel the guilty B'strd in".....

[ukatco_535]

Fagins Goat...

IF it was established that a civil pilot crashed his a/c due to running out of fuel because he did not check his load sheet correctly and carry the correct fuel, and did not continue to do fuel checks, then yes, he would be sacked. However that civil industry does encourage open reporting 'to improve learning' and it works very well (as opposed to the italian side of things whereby several controllers have recently been jailed).

As for civil a/c always flying with tight fuel that is not true. They will fly with what is required depending on weather at destination and alternate, however many of them will fly with max fuel loads and take the hit on the increased drag/cost because the fuel at the airport they have just departed from is considerably cheaper than at their base airport.

[EmergingCyclogenesis]

However that civil industry does encourage open reporting 'to improve learning' and it works very well

You would have a hard job getting back to the ship negative cab without anyone noticing!

[Si Clik]

VVCA,

Since the BOI has not yet even completed you need to be reminded that this is certainly NOT the case.

Disciplinary action will only ever follow the BOI report which normally (especially since Mull) cannot apportion blame only detrmine the cause and contibutory cause of the accident.

Additionally, why would it be the pilot and not any other member of the various teams looking after Air Safety.

I feel you are misinformed.

:suspect:

[vecvechookattack]

Apologies but sources down here have suggested that they have all ready been removed from the flight...

However, I totally agree with you reference the BOI and the Mull......if the FAA are not very very careful we will be seeing another "Chinook (Lynx) hitting back" thread

[Pontius Navigator]

Si Clik, not commenting on this topis at all but the one about removal from post before a BOI has delivered its findings.

In the light blue arena several aircrew, much like civpol, are grounded and sent on gardening leave pending the results of enquiries. In many cases it is probably irresponsible not to take such precautionary measures.

The same happens in many other walks of like too especially in fraud allegations. Why should god's gifts to aviation be treated any differently? (And I mean any pilot and not the ones featuring in this thread.)

Your other point is valid however, don't hang the b*st*rd until found guilty.

[Bigtop]

There may be some chinese whispers going on here.
Have the crew/pilot been sacked - highly unlikely. Closer to the truth will be they've
1. Been re-appointed (and not necessarily because of the accident) to new jobs in line with normal appointing cycles.
2. Heard a rumble that one/some of the crew had resigned anyway, before all this happened so would be off to gardening/resettlement stuff!

VVHA

Can't see your chinook style thread appearing at a rapid rate. At the mo it appears that someone screwed up, unless the BOI can find a technical prob, so the defence could be pretty weak!

[vecvechookattack]

Very true....someone/people did screw this up....very much like the Mull incident......both HF(A)