Recruiting a problem

[Si Clik]

Problems Ahead ?

For a very long time the Armed Forces have enjoyed a bouyant recruiting market, where only niche careers ever had to be targetted.

We got there despite the best efforts of the press, politicians and bean counters always able to meet the targets and more than often have a rich crop of talent from which to select.

In the past 3-4 years we have begun to see a trend of alienation amongst young people towards the Armed Forces. There is no one reason to pick on (not even Telic) but surveys across the recruiting population (16-24) show a continuing decline in the attractiveness of Armed Forces careers.

In fact some of our surveys show that there is only a set pool of people to recruit from for all uniformed services (inlcuding Police, Customs etc)

The attractiveness and high availability of further and higher education see young people of the calibre we need leaving it late to make up their minds and the fashionable subjects (media studies and forensic science) hardly provide a firm basis for the Military Engineers of the future.

The problem here of course, is a shrinking market place coupled to shrinking budgets. Advertising costs increase by about 10% a year, defence budgets tend to decrease in real terms.

Additionally main stream Service thinking is that recruiting is a quiet backwater - quite the opposite approach of the commercial world - and it can be quite tough to get people to volunteer to appear in recruiting literature, let alone do the job.

What do we do?

How do we get our messages out?

How do we compete?

[BEagle]

Are you f*****g serious?

Just look at the difference between the attraction the Service offered 20 years ago and the cr@p on offer today. If you can't afford to keep high quality people who are already in the Service, how on earth do you expect to attract new recruits?

Methinks the beancounters' chickens have come home to roost. Tough titty. We all told them so, but they wouldn't listen.

No-one who has been in the Service for less than about 15 years will EVER have known anything more than increasing mindless bull$hit and ever more CUTS.

And once upon a time, fun was allowed.

[Si Clik]

Well thanks BEAGS for the encouraging message.

Personally I think we do offer an interesting job, with good pay and reasonable conditions....wait 2,3,4..

I wouldn't still be in after 22 years if I didn't think so.

Come on, give a little more than the typical whinging b£$lsh@t that we normally get on this site.

[soddim]

I suggest for aircrew you focus on the pure enjoyment of the flying that only the armed forces can offer. Even then you will have trouble retaining people with the current level of b******t on offer.

Show the flying off to the potential recruits - not the shiny videos of the reds but the cockpit views of air combat training, low level SAPs, aerobatics, weapon firing, helicopter operations, ASW operations, AWACS in action etc etc.

Then get Tony and his mates to put their money where their mouths are and come up with a financial package to make all the hardships worthwhile.

Only job satisfaction and money will solve your problems.

[jindabyne]

SC

Here, here!

I spent a liquid night last week in a small pub in Lostwithiel (don't ask why), and amongst losing my brains with delightful locals there happened to be a gent & lady from the Navy and a current RAF FJ. Great night, and helped dispel much of the carping that we see on this site - and yes, they'd all (do) spent much time in the sand etc, etc. Back off Baldy; and before you say it, my brains weren't left in WIWOL or other nostalgia.

And retarded engineer (see next post), they (the three) would've been offended if you'd suggested that they weren't in an honoured profession; they had their issues, such as housing, pensions and all the rest, but they were bloody proud of what they were doing, enjoyed it, and were p***ed off with the general flak that some of this site attracts. Equally, they had their sensible eye on their futures, which could well be beyond their present Service careers. 'Twas ever thus, so what? Good luck to them.

[engineer(retard)]

Si Clik

It might be worth shifting your focus a bit and asking whether you would advise your children to join.

Having teenaged sons, I have been through this hoop quite recently. Trying to be objective, my advice was - get in, get the training, have some fun, get out.

The reasons for this - I remember the old gits saying "it's not the same as when I joined", and probably many of us have said the same at some point. Nevertheless, I believe many things are the same, such as the professionalism and humour.

However, I do not believe that there is the perception in the masses that we are defending the country anymore. The armed forces ares no longer considered to be an honourable profession, something that would make their parents proud. Operations that have been carried out in their life time will reinforce this impression (these are the post-malvinas generation). Kids today are also much more switched on than we were (well certainly me) and seem to understand the need for securing the future with pensions, getting in the housing market, the very areas that are either being eroded now or that service life was traditionally weak in. The housing market was a push factor for me.

Also the mindset of "job for life" has gone. The kids anticipate job hopping to get promoted and move onward and upward. Stability is less of an issue.

It's also possible that my boys have been winding me up. They have a Boarding school education as opposed to my London comprhensive 70's style (this excuses the grammer).

Regards

Retard

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Might I suggest that retention is as big a problem as recruitment, and despite what some here are saying Beag's is spot on:}

Soddim says "Then get Tony and his mates to put their money where their mouths are and come up with a financial package to make all the hardships worthwhile."...... which for me sums it all up:mad:

We are at war with our "cousins" and a simple comparison with how they are treated, from compensation for families of those killed in action to the basic welfare packages shows why we ARE NOT INVESTORS IN PEOPLE...........AND NEVER WILL BE :}

Doing it on the cheap is no way to encourage the right sort of new blood..........but it is the right way for faceless counters of beans to get on:}

Eng, I have now done 30 years and I would sooner my two teenagers emptied bins than join the RAF in any shape or form.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[lineslime]

Having seen and worked with some of the dross coming out of trade training (O.K. not all are that bad) I don't think you aeroplane driving types would be too pleased to see them working on your beloved steeds. There seems to be a real lack of drive and enthusiasm for the job (in some cases ability), if this is all that want to join up then I don't hold much hope for the RAF, let alone the rest of the armed forces.

[Flik Roll]

All schools do nowadays is push people to go to uni. I was frowned upon because I initially wanted to go DE into the RAF.
As a result, they don't suggest other options to students, who are pretty oblivious and just assume that uni is they only option and the way ahead.

[BEagle]

Notwithstanding the unnecessary and irrelevantly abusive comments of some in this thread, I could list a whole catalogue of reasons why the RAF is not the attraction to the youngsters of today which it once was.

But Im not going to bother - because no-one would re-introduce them, citing the well-worn mantra...

"There's no money for that"

In 1977 a visiting P-staff person asked us all the same question even then when recruiting was suffering. He was strongly rebuffed by one captain who told him "If you can't tell us what's going to happen to us when the Tornado takes over from the Vulcan, how do you expect us to tell you what to tell potential recruits!" A round of applause - and the end of the meeting!

Sorry to be so unhelpful - but I suggest you look back 5, 10, 15 and 20 years and remember what we did then which the RAF doesn't do now. Everything from Air Displays to life in the Officers Mess.

[Bag Man]

Si Click

In general you see a socio-demographic trend away from the 'doing' side and towards the 'administering' side. I understand that there are more people administering the armed forces than there are doing the fighting (and administrators get paid more?). If this perception permeats society then no wonder 16-24s want to administer and not be at the sharp end.

Stories of 33 year-old civil servants setting up a quango and then posting themselves to head it for £250K pa do not help either.

I am afraid you have a problem to solve that can not be done at no-cost (unless you start sacking some administrators).

[jindabyne]

BEagle

IF you are inferring that my post above was unnecessary and irrelevantly abusive, I can only assume that one is either a little delicate or over-reactive to overly blunt opinion. Either way, I note that you chose to ignore my observations - crudely offered maybe, but we all are occasionally grape-affected.

[engineer(retard)]

Jind

I was not saying that your serving friends are not in an honoured profession, only stating the perception that the masses have of the armed forces today. I recall having drinks bought for me whilst I was travelling purely because I was serving in the military, and have been offered a bed in an old couples house because I could not make a train journey to Lossie due to missed connections and was going to be stuck in a train station for the night. The point that I was trying to make that the public then were the post WW2 generation, who viewed the military as guardians of the country/empire and were proud of people that served. I no longer see that as the case:

Beags quote - Just look at the difference between the attraction the Service offered 20 years ago and the cr@p on offer today

ABIW - Eng, I have now done 30 years and I would sooned my two teenagers emptied bins than join the RAF in any shape or form.

And this is the pro side of the argument from people that have served.

Since GW1, we have been involved in a variety of operations, few of which have had widespread public support such as was seen during the Falklands. This years university entry were 3 years old during GW1. Media attention in their lifetime has been centred on civilians that have been killed during operations, bullying in the armed forces,and the call to arms being generated by political desire not popular support. This is our public face.

ABIW - My sons are not joining up either. How many serving people do you know that were scaley brats. Why is it that this rich source of recruiting material drying up? These should be bankers for the recruiters. All of the arguments about conditions and retention that we hear apply to this part of the recruitment problem. The alienation is due to the poor public perception of life in the military and why the military exist. As Beags mentioned this has been degenerating for years, Si Clik will not find a quick fix because it will take a lot of money and effort to repair the long term damage.

[handyman]

Si Clik

I agree with Soddim! All the adverts today focus on recruiting everyone but aircrew, when we should put all the focus on recruiting aircrew because it is the sexier side of the forces. The spin off from this will still be to recruit everybody else as the forces (RN) becomes more glamourous.

I didn't join the Navy because of pay or condition etc. It was purely for the flying and as I remember I didn't know what the pay was until I got to Dartmouth (Oh and at £8K per annum was a little disappointed...but I stayed).

I am also embarrased to say that 'TOPGUN' had a lot to do with it.

If you want to recruit the young you need to get into popular culture and make the forces attractive, not through pay and conditions but by making them believe that it is cool etc.

May I suggest that you get a very big chunk of money and make TOPGUN 2......I'd buy a ticket at the cinema!!!!!

Handyman:ok:

[jindabyne]

eng

Thanks for that.

I accept, subjectively, that the RAF is not what it was some twenty years ago (I left in '88), and that there is a recruitment issue. I can only recount the views of those 'youngsters' (ground-pounders and aircrew) that I meet frequently who portray a quite different picture to that which you paint; and I have a scaley who, knowing of past and present Service lifestyle, would be only too happy to re-join - regrets departing after UAS, and he's now just too old.

That several offspring and many friends in various walks of civvy life do not see their lot as being fantastically advantageous over those in uniform seems to me to be a useful comparitor. I also have the impression that, aside from negative media perception and the rightful but over-emphasised coverage of minority behaviour in the Army, Joe Public still has a generally high regard for those in uniform; albeit with something less of your 'guardian/pride' notion.

I too look back and make critical comparison of then and now; but that's to be expected. Not exposed to 'then', those I meet seem highly content with their 'now'. I can only draw my opinion from what I hear; maybe that is a too narrow judgement?

That said, I strongly despise many of Hoon's cost-saving measures, particularly those that directly affect the individual and his/her family.

[pr00ne]

handyman,

Do we REALLY need to focus on aircrew, is there any shortage of hopefuls applying to fly?
Other branches and trades seem to be the problem from reading this forum.

BTW, has anyone seen the new RAF recruiting ad? I saw it on Sky at the weekend, it features a Typhoon flying over various ground features each one of which is a representation of a particular ground branch with a snappy R/T voice over. It seemed as punchy as some of the more recent Army and RN ads and neatly combined the flying and non flying side. Even though the ad closed with the line “You don’t have to be a pilot to join the RAF” it did feature some pretty impressive Typhoon sequences from inside and outside the cockpit.

I also agree on your point re pay, I pitched up not knowing what on earth I was going to get paid, it just didn’t enter my head at the time, I wanted to fly, they gave me the chance, I was made up and that was all there was too it.

[KPax]

Been in 30 years, not quite the same as the 70's but in the main still enjoy the job. Finances I don't think about, trust me I want to weep when I hear how much a civil Air Trafficer gets paid. My son is joining up shortly and I have no qualms in supporting him. My only advice is to watch out for the wanabee JO's who see themselves going further based on the perceived lack of competition. They would not have lasted 2 weeks in the 70's. I still have a good job, I enjoy it, and am proud to continue to do it well.

[DSAT Man]

Recruitment a problem? My son has been trying to get into the RAF for over a year now as a firefighter; there are no places available. He's hanging on still but I sense his enthusiasm waning as he awaits the call.

Only 5 trades are required on the RAF Careers website yet we are actively encouraging youngsters, via the new TV advert, to sign up then sit and wait for ages until a place becomes available at Halton.

Remember: 'You don't have to be a pilot to fly in the RAF' .

[jamino]

trouble is dsat man a lot of fire and rescue has been tendered out to local authorities and private sector,theres only a handfull of bases with fulltime raf firefighters,it seems to be deadmans shoes at the moment,he should try the regiment,lots of fresh air,travel, toys to play with and of corse all the wrafs love an ape;) ...ahhh the good old days,id go back tommorow..lol..good luck for your son mate.

[Beeayeate]

"In days of old when the RAF was bold
and Canberras ruled the skies . . . :rolleyes:

Must say I agree with Beag's attitude, the Air Force of my day would, seemingly, not be allowed to happen in these "enlightened" times - you don't even get squadron Landrovers these days!

Two things in my opinion.

Firstly, the youngsters these days are not as prepared to put up with privations and discipline as they were when I joined ("war baby" era). Just about everybody in those times had a father or uncle who had served thus giving some sort of continuity of expectation.

Secondly, I reckon the perception amongst the 'yoof' is that the RAF is now just another a big corporation with an overly strict dress code, a class ridden structure and low financial rewards.

I recall such things as the London/New York Air Race. Would such an event be allowed these days? Could the RAF even do it now?

Also, the famous London/Sydney Car Rally. Very high publicity event. RAF entered a car which was supported down route by a Herc, mil type planning and strategically place fuel/spares dumps, the works in fact. Could that happen in these times? I don't think so.

:(

[BEagle]

Although the RAF of today is not something I would join, the RAF of but 5 years ago was. So mine are not exactly "When I joined 36 years ago...." comments, more a reflection upon the way things have plummetted over the last 5 years.

The London-Paris air race in 1959 included several Hunter 7s and CFS helicopters. The RAF fielded a winning team..

Imagine the 'Overarching strategies', 'Management initiatives' and 'Blue sky thinking' needed to repeat such a performance today! Let alone being able to fly a Harrier out of St Pancras across the Atlantic as in the 1969 Daily Mail Transatlantic Air Race!

[tier2commando]

The social problem I see with this recruitment problem is when I was younger the air/army cadets, scouts, boys brigade, and other uniformed youth movements gave the youth of that generation a worth while pastime and made wearing a uniform natural. They did exciting things in these organisations that took effort teamwork and energy; compare this to the x box generation.
I would have no problem letting my children join any branch of the services, there still is much on offer if you don’t become cynical and look for opportunities.
At the moment the Air Training Corps is desperate for adult instructors could you help out? Because nearly all of the high calibre recruits come from this organisation

[Last call for Mr..]

DSAT Man,

get him to join any branch of any service....He'll soon end up firefighting right enough!;)

[Point0Five]

and made wearing a uniform natural

Quite true tier2commando... I believe that Mr Hitler did something similar also.

Don't get me wrong, I was a Queen's Scout myself, but be careful applying the values system that you were raised under to the youngsters of today.

The forces are an excellent form of employment; just don't fall into the trap of believing that that today's youth needs the military more than it needs them. Future conditions of service will be defined by the needs of "yoofs".

BEagle

Please!!! You are clearly a man with some influence and strong opinions, also with an axe to grind. The RAF is fully stretched, whilst a race around the world is fun... how does that generate value for the tax payers or help our boys and girls in the gulf???

The military is there to provide a more aggresive from of government policy,not a Boys Own adventure.

[BEagle]

But it could once do such things - and that's the point.

Both those events motivated me - as did watching the fast(ish) jets of the time wazzing around at low level virtually anywhere you went in the UK.

The only axe I have to grind is with the spineless characters of the past who wouldn't stand up for the RAF against the beancounters lest it prejudice their next star....

[DuckDodgers]

As for recruiting, perhaps the average 16-24 year old, educated middle classes quite rightly do not relate to the abusive political use of the armed forces in places such as Iraq. 70+ service personnel have given their lives and is the UK seeing a tangible benefit, was there any justification in the first place? Most people were not interested in the first place or saw through the blatent spin and lies produced by this government.

Other reasons lie in the terms of service offered, who wants to spend 16-22 years in one company in this day and age, not many. It is a problem that will only materialise in the people that come through the system and i am afraid to say this is becoming increasingly evident.

My vine yard awaits...

[Dendmar]

Beagle is so right!! Sometimes the old sods (yes I'm one of them too) are correct. The world would function a lot better if we listened to them. Bear in mind, 1% of the yooth do come up with innovation, so should not be totally ignored!

[jindabyne]

BEagle

Absolute b****x old chap. If you believe that, in the past 50 years or so, starred items never had an eye on their own well being, then you dwell in fantasy land; tell us of those very senior officers who ever fell on their sword? (no doubt you'll bring up the odd one, but it's never been the trend). I gratefully partook in several moral-raising fasty-jet events, and they were indeed great times. But gone they are, and that's simply a fact of times moving on - sad, but reality. Flying stunts at Hendon must've also been great, but they're all part of history. Be thankful you enjoyed what you did, and let the present crop get on with what they do - nothing worse than an old git sat at the bar telling the new bloods 'how great it used to be in my time'. Whatever your reasoning -------

And as for 'it could once do such things' - IMHO it/they, still does/do; but these days 'they' have to do it by earning their shilling more than I ever did. God bless them, and encourage them that do, and those that thankfully still wish to fly, militarily.

Off to Friday happy hour.

[totalwar]

Duckdodgers - Bye then !

You clearly haven't been reading this thread.

I took a pay drop to join the RN and have never regretted a minute. After over 30 yrs service I can honestly say that I enjoy it as much today as I did the day |i joined and as I approach 5000 hours I still get the buzz when climbing into the aircraft...

[Bismark]

You just have to read the Nottingham thread to realise what fun it can be flying from the sea, never quite knowing where the airfield is (certainly moved from the take off point) and no diversion to boot!

I had a fantastic time flying in the RN. The bit from the sea the best of all - fortunately always made it back to the deck despite "Mum's" best attempt to ensure I didn't.

As for change, conditions of service, "better in my day", kids mowadays want to move on every few years for promotion etc - what has changed? Life has always been like this, whether in the Service or not.

The fact is Service flying is still the most fun and most professionally rewarding, and flying in the RN the best of all -just look at the threads to see all the positive comments from the Navy lads vs the drips from the Crabs. What other Service can you be flying from the deck in the morning, alongside paradise in the afternoon, trap a millionaire at the Cockers P in the evening, get p----d, wake up next morning back at sea ready to fly nce more in the most challenging environment of all.

Fly Navy - you know it make sense!:cool:

[totalwar]

Great Post Bismark..... couldn't have said it better myself...

FLY NAVY

[kippermate]

I don't want to disappoint you all, but I have more than enough young people working for me that are desparate for a career in the Service. Most are of a high calibre (I wouldn't send them to OASC if they were not!) and all are keen. Unfortunately many of them fail to achieve a place because of the recent downsizing, or, I believe our lords and masters call it 'right-sizing'.

There is a point about retention though!

kipper

[Jobza Guddun]

Bismark,

That's the difference between the shinier service and the RAF- us crabs would trap a millionairESS. Still, whatever you can get aboard the boat, eh?

[Bismark]

Kippermate,

Sounds like you send your people to the RAF side of things at OASC? The Fleet Air Arm is not downsizing so send your high calibre boys and girls to the RN - Si Clik will help with advice. The way things are going they will have a better chance flying Fast Jets the Navy route than with the RAF.


Jobza,

Millionairesses tend to be old and have young men hanging off their wallets (cleary attractive to the C..bs!), Millionaires tend to be old and have lovely young women hanging off their wallets (clearly attractive to the RN!).


FLY NAVY - You know it makes sense (and they can think more laterally than Jobza!)

[Si Clik]

Thanks for the useful comments here.

A few more points:

The RN is recruiting across all branches and specialisations at the same rate as it has for at least the last 5 years.

We NEED young people to join NOW especially into the aviation related branches.

My viewing of the RAF figures tells me this year has been a blip to prevent too many redundancies and it will begin to creep up. The RN will tell you that you should keep recruiting even when thinning out from the top.

Bismark is spot on about the career and clearly he still loves it as well.

My point here is that whilst the old cynics may be turned off the job and leaving but why aren't the young people even interested (in my time in the RN ..all 22years...there has always been a base group of complete cynics). A rough reading of baseline statistics shows application rates well down.

More Please....!!






:hmm:

[the_cyclone]

Bismark

I thought with the (imminent) demise of the SHAR the only way you can fly jets in the Navy now was in RAF cockpits, on RAF bases!

[dessert_flyer]

Having been a spectator to prune for a few years now i thought this would be an appropriate time to post my first reply.
Having been in the RAF for 25 years i have seen many changes to how we do things. It seems that all people say is "it was better in my day" and inform us of how much fun it used to be. I for one still enjoy the job i do and believe i will do until i am forced to leave.
However it is that last bit about having to leave, i believe is one of the main reasons that a recruitment problem exists. Gone are the days whe the military was a job for life. Even if you are at the top of your particular tree, one day it is likely that the axe will fall, and at an inappropriate time of life you will be forced onto the civilian job market More often than not it will be at a time when you have young children and possibly a mortgage to sustain. To join the military is a temporary situation and you must prepare yourself to leave when you are requested to, or forced to (redundancies).
The fun does still exist (although being eroded) and the ability to see the world (especially sandy bits) is still there.
Having been ground and aircrew, i have realised that the only place to be is in the air, still a great job.

[Bismark]

Si,

Thanks for the compliment but I retired many years ago. Enjoyed every minute of my time.

Cyclone,

The Harriers are a Joint force 50:50 RN:RAF. Just because the a/c sit with the RAF does not mean they dictate the manning - they don't MOD does.

FLY NAVY-be the best!

[Maple 01]

But the RN still own a jet of their very own - a Seahawk

Fly Navy? I'd rather walk sideways! ;)

[totalwar]

If you want to join the RN and fly fixed wing there are plenty of opportunities. We currently operate Harriers, Jetstreams, Hawks and have Officers flying the Joint Strike Fighter.
You can also teach on the Tucano at RNAS Linton or fly Grobs from Plymouth....

[BEagle]

totalwaster, I think you'll find that the 'Navy' Hawks are leased to the RN by the RAF, but operated by Serco with ex-military civilian pilots employed by Babcock HCS. 2 are detached to the FW standards unit at Heron.

Flying Hawks in Cornwall for a living - that must be fun!

[kippermate]

Bismark,

I do send my lads and lasses to OASC with a light blue bent, although I have sent a few to AIB as well.

kipper

[WE Branch Fanatic]

BEagle

Naval Flying Standards Flight (Fixed Wing) (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/static/pages/3733.html) are based at Yeovilton.

You are indeed right about FRADU (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/static/pages/3857.html), who are at Culdrose, so they can support FOST training exercises by simulating air/missile attack on ships. Even though the Government says there is no threat....hmm.

Perhaps the reason recruitment is a problem is because fewer and fewer members of the public come into contact with members of the Services, and based their opinions on the stereotypes portrayed by the gutter press and the media. Incidentally, have you noticed how there has been an increase in hostile media coverage since that :mad: :mad: Campbell returned to office?

Cutbacks don't help either.

[Si Clik]

Oh,

Did I mention that it is an intention for RN pilots also to fly in the Joint ASTOR and other such programs.

There is more to fixed wing in the RN than being an ex SHAR pilot.

Anyway back to the thread...

How do we get them in?

:hmm:

[totalwar]

Thank you WEBF...

[badger baiter]

only being in for less than ten years but I believe the banter and good spirits and commarady is still very much here.

Also I dont think I could possibly be paid as much as i get if I worked on a hourly basis in civvy street to be fair most I know who have left regret working for a living.

Government flying restrictions etc to save money I think is a bit a??e but I find it hard to imagine a job that will make me this comfortable without cleaning hazardous waste etc.

How could it have been better in the old days everyone complains it was harder/colder/wetter/more intense when they did it????????

[Si Clik]

BB,

Here, here.

I still thinks its great fun and I fly a desk.

Then a recruiting job is the best kept secret in the RN.

Si

:hmm: