Computer sim for IFR procedures?

[Dupre]

My instructor was recently telling me about the value of a simulator in the first few hours of IFR training (easier to talk, can pause to explain things, can rewind if necessary etc etc...)

I could get a decent flight sim for my computer (x-plane maybe) and a yoke/rudder pedal setup. Then hire an instructor for a few hours to run through the procedures. After that of course, I could practice IFR procedures at no cost :D

Would this make the real IFR lessons more productive - and ready me for the flight test in less aircraft hours?

The set-up would cost about the same as 4 hours in a real sim - or about 1.5hrs of twin time. Which represents better value?

Cheers!

Dupre.

[ITCZ]

It is a good idea.

MS Flight Sim or X-plane equally good. X-plane runs on mac and windoze, I use it on my mac, and personally think it is a better programme, but either will do.

Dont worry about the rudder pedals, they are expensive and not all that useful for the task.

Get a cheap joystick with a throttle lever, don't really need to spend more than a hundred dollars here, IMHO.

You will never be really successful at learning how to pole a particular aeroplane by using the home computer sim.

Where you can be very successful and save yourself a lot of money and air time, is by using the home sim to review the procedures, and work on the 'where am I and how do I get where I want to be' part of IFR flying.

For that, you do not need anything more than basic computer equipment.

For what it's worth, I am up to my umpteenth IFR renewal and have to go sit in a company simulator twice a year.

It is very useful to combine the odd practice approach in the aeroplane with some scanning practice and working out a procedure at an unfamiliar destination on the home computer before heading off to the simulator.

Dont get caught up on failing engines and putting in rudder, leave that for the aeroplane.

Just practice outbound to inbound intercepts on the autopilot. All engines operating practice NDB and VOR base turns, etc.

Plug in some crosswinds and learn to lay off drift and adjust bank angles etc.

Know which way to turn when the NDB needle drifts away from straight ahead or perfectly aft!

A good way to sort out pilots wanting IFR jobs is to get them to correctly enter and fly a hold. Practice this. Its a great way to work on your orientation and situational awareness in the soup.

Staying within the circling area, having a plan for the missed approach, having a plan for executing a missed approach from circling, etc

Welcome to IFR! Enjoy your training :ok:

[AerocatS2A]

Dupre yes it's a good idea for all the reasons stated by ITCZ.

Hoever, there's no point thinking of the costs as offsetting any costs associated with your rating. You won't be able to log any of your home computer sim time so you will still have to do enough IF time for the license. As the sim at your flying school will be a lot cheaper than a real aeroplane, you can still expect to be doing some time in that as well. But with good practice at home you'll be more likely to achieve your license with minimum hours which translates to minimum cost.

[Dupre]

Thanks for your replies! I will get some kind of system working, and start nailing those NDB approaches! (ha ha)

Much appreciated,

Dupre.

[DeltaSix]

The MS Flight sim is good on autopilot but when you try and handfly the thing - ITS A BITCH.

The heading hold is not a problem but the pitching is almost uncontrollable. It is so hard to trim the thing. No matter how much I trim it, the VSI still pitches up and down that much that I find it hard to hold an altitude during a turn or flying the ILS. I dont even have the time to look at the avionics and radios let alone setting them up while flying it manually. I GAVE UP EVENTUALLY. Good on the graphics though.

Was just wondering if there are any share-wares that can fix this problem.

D6

[QSK?]

D6:

Yep, I also have the same problem with pitch control on FS2004 which, unfortunately, means the program cannot be used as an effective IFR training tool (except during cruise on AP). I even bought a new joystick to see if that would solve the problem. Unfortunately, no joy. Surely someone in MS must be aware of this problem by now and have provided a fix? Does anybody know of any remedy?

I have found ASA's "On Top" of Jeppersen's FlitePro more suitable (and stable) as IFR trainers. Unfortunately, the scenery on becoming visual is a bit boring!

[DeltaSix]

QSK?

I looked at the MS website and the only fixes they have are the drivers for the runway lights and some combat FS. I rang them but they informed me that there is really no department that deals with this problem which I find hard to believe. So, finally I got an email where to send complaints about FS and .......
the email doesnt work....... I am shaking my head.

Back to the real aeroplanes. Where's my Dornier and chieftain ?


D6

[maxgrad]

THANKYOU!!
You just stopped me from buying a new controller.
Same problem, changed the settings of the present controller to minimum elevator. Did nothing to fix the problem.

[8 8th's Blue]

Guys,
try going to control assignments and change the elevator trim to a couple of buttons on your joystick rather than keyboard inputs. Then use a little trim in the approach rather than huge elevator inputs. Seems to work out OK for me on MS flight sim. I have an old thrustmaster joystick.

88b

[QSK?]

D6:/maxgrad:

Your earlier posts prompted me to write to MS again outlining the problem.

The email address for complaints (from the MS website) is: [email protected]

The more people who write and complain may force MS to issue a fix in a time frame that we can all understand.

88b:

Your post came in just as I was finishing this post. Thanks for the tip. I've used both Thrustmaster and CH joysticks and am still having problems.

[DeltaSix]

QSK,

That's the email address I was using but didnt work for me. Maybe my ISP is having problems. I'll try again this evening.
I'll also outline the problem to reinforce your message.
:E short of saying "I want a refund ".

Also, 88B....... trim adjustments on approach will probably work but the turns, climbs and descents will not work with that.
You still need elevator inputs to stabilize the approach and maintain altitude in turns.

I've also noticed that as soon as you turn to the left or right to intercept the LLZ, the dreaded pitch starts going its own way again, and thus you lose the glide slope. And this is with minimal input from the stick.
So, we need the pitch to respond to the trim correctly enough to stay on the glide path.

I was beginning to wonder if Airbus pilots have this problem.

Bill, I want me money back.........


D6

[maxgrad]

QSK,
thanks for the input but have to disagree with you.
I have the trim set up on a couple of joystick buttons but it doesn't help the overall problem.
Apart from the fact that I don't want to spend lots of time getting used to new control inputs, just sit down, shoot some approaches then go

[QSK?]

maxgrad:

Uh, I think you mixed me up with 88b?

Cheers QSK?

[maxgrad]

oops, sorry QSK


Anyone use anything else apart from MS2004
works
cheap
user friendly?

[Dupre]

maxgrad -

In the good old days I used x-plane (v5) which was fantastic, so long as you didn't want to shoot anything. Only drawback was that NZ (and OZ) were not modelled very well - though this has probably improved in the latest version (v8). They now claim that online orders come with "Global Scenery" - but I don't know how good it is as I haven't bought it.

X-plane comes with planemaker and worldmaker, so you can modify and design planes/instruement panels and scenary/airports. Very useful if you have the time and inclination, but I never got around to doing any more than a couple of my local airports.

The web-page is www.x-plane.com if you want to check it out.

Dupre.

[DeltaSix]

Maxgrad - have you tried Jeppesen's FlitePro IFR trainer ?

QSK?- would you know if they have a later version of this ?
The last time I used it was 4 years ago and they only had 2 choices of aircraft. Can't remember if it had pitching problems as well.

I used x-plane (v5) which was fantastic, so long as you didn't want to shoot anything.

Pitching problems too ?

D6

[Dupre]

No... the planes don't have guns!

I never noticed any pitching problem - but then I never used a joystick, I was always using a mouse.

[DeltaSix]

Can anyone tell me how to insert a jpg image in here ?


Thanks

D6

[QSK?]

D6:

Jeppersen's FlitePro was (is) a good program in its day, but .....

1. Pitch control is good, but I've never been able to get the AP to work properly (not a real concern as the objective of the program is to improve your manual IF competency, and manual flying is pretty stable anyway).

2. As you've identified, it only has 2 aircraft; both SE aircraft (a Be36 and C172), which is a limitation if you're a ME pilot.

3. The program database is now getting dated and it shows eg some navaid frequencies have changed over time (AV locator is still shown as 206KHz instead of 404KHz as it is today). FTH VOR (outside of ML) still exists even though this facility was decommissioned years ago. Also due to magnetic variation, some of the tracks depicted on today's charts vary from the FlitePro DB tracks by a couple of degrees which means that you sometimes find yourself abeam your next fix if you're navigating by current charts even though your instruments indicate you're bang on the current track . Also some of the position/waypoint names have changed over time (only a problem for the post-flight analysis function).

I have written to Jepps recently and they have clearly indicated that they WILL NOT be updating FlitePro, so I would recommend against buying it for this reason. Better option would be to purchase ASA's "On Top V8.0" program as it overcomes all the limitations listed above for FlitePro. ASA link is: http://www.air-land-sea-products.com/thestore/prods/ASA-ONTOP8.html

Hope this helps.

Cheers QSK?

[maxgrad]

haven't tried Jepp's fltpro but many years ago had a slightly warm copy of IFTPRO. Same??
Program finally died and took my computer with it. Liked the availability of changing perf spec of a/c and changing dash board dials.

[DeltaSix]

Cheers QSK? Had a look at the website and it looks educational enough for me. I'll go hunting for it.

Would you know if they do yearly upgrades to cope with changes ?

Ta

D6

[QSK?]

D6: no idea, sorry mate.

Cheers QSK?

PS: have just found out that the program all user modification of the program database so you don't have to wait for updates.

[ITCZ]

Re:Global Scenery for Xplane

Global scenery came out with v6.51.

Its pretty good, except you will find that some aerodromes (eg Perth Intl) are in a 'basin'

There is some smoothing of elevations, usually a little higher.

Then when the aerodrome is dropped in the middle of it the (lower) elevation is applied to the terrain inside the boundary fence.

Thats when you have some fun flying the Perth 24ILS, being on slope but the wheels touch the ground on some terrain at the Outer Marker!!

Its a pain but you can adjust EACH SQUARE of terrain, one by one.

A rainy evening exercise :rolleyes:

[Ozeflyer]

Have used ASA's IFR Proficiency Simulator "On Top" for some years. No fancy scenery but does the job well.

They have a demo for download.

http://www.asa2fly.com/AB2012000Store/product1.asp?SID=1&Product_ID=103&

[QSK?]

DeltaSix:

Check your PMs

QSK?

[swh]

OnTop V8.0 has been approved by CASA under FSD2 as a Class B synthetic trainer. Aircraft include singles, B58, B1900, has ADF/VOR/ILS/LLZ/GPS and much more cost effective than ELITE.

If you have a dual head video card (the type of card that allows you to drive two monitors side by side), the instructor console is built into the program at no extra cost allowing for monitoring, changing Wx, repositioning, snapshots, printing, also aircraft system and instrument failures.