Bandit Co Pilot time

[Damntalibanman]

Just saw on the Air South website that they are offering Bandit Co Pilot hours.

Check this out Air South (http://www.airsouth.com.au/home.htm)

[sumtingwong]

15 grand for an endo and 100 hours ICUS? Ooops forgot about the lovely uniform!

Where to begin with what's wrong with this?

1/Paying for time on any aircraft, dilutes the industry (you know the old chestnut, pilots up the rung and those less expierienced climbing above purely by virtue of money etc etc)

2/A reputable employer will look at 100 ICUS and say what did you need all this ICUS time for. That much ICUS is not in the spirit for which ICUS was intended (i.e. route checking, proficiency checks etc, but 100 hours, come on!)

3/ The company not only makes a fortune on the endorsement, which I will assume they do during a revenue flight in the first place, they get 100 hours out of you....for Free.

Please think carefully

[Damntalibanman]

..............is it ICUS ??

I thought ICUS is In Command Under Supervision, this is Co-Pilot time which is different. If you think you can fly a bandit to a high standard in under 100 hrs your dreaming, 100 in any turbine aircraft is stuff all but you need to start somewhere i guess.

.....as far as paying for time on aircraft goes, is $20K+ for a Virgin job ok ?? or is that different cos its a jet.

It seems that pilots these days think that when they have a CIR and CPL the training is all over ! In fact, its only just begun and as you the Pilot is going to be the one to benefit from advanced training why shouldnt you pay for it.

Does a Doctor who studies to become a specialist get his training for free ???

This deal seems quite useful to a pilot who is looking for some turbine experiance in a commercial environment.

I don't think they would do the endorsement during a charter flight though, u can't train with pax on board.

:D

[sumtingwong]

My apologies, right you are, on one issue. It is advertised as 100 hours co-pilot:

Obviously know much about the aircraft; your quote:
“If you think you can fly a bandit to a high standard in under 100 hrs your (sic) dreaming”.

I didn’t realise I was talking to the EMB 110 guru.

Ok then oh learned one, tell me if you know so much about the aircraft; and by extension of your comments, small two crew turbine’s why are you interested in this endorsement and paying for 100 co-pilot hours? (which btw will add only 50hours to your total aeronautical experience).

You wouldn’t happen to work for the company would you? By your comments about the medical industry you obviously aren’t involved in that field either. But back to that later

“100 in any turbine aircraft is stuff all but you need to start somewhere i guess.”

Your quote again.

Ok, then wouldn’t you agree that $15,500 AUD is a lot to spend on stuff all hours, by your quote. Even when you complete the 100 hours, you can’t fly the aircraft to a high standard, again your words.

So please then tell me why you would want to pay $15,500 to have stuff all hours and not even be able to fly the aircraft by a high standard? (Your words tiger)

Here’s an idea on where to start. It’s called progression, start small, work up and progress due to merit not daddy’s dollars!

Ok again you said:

“.....as far as paying for time on aircraft goes, is $20K+ for a Virgin job ok ?? or is that different cos (sic) its a jet.”

No the type does not matter, however Virgin pilots are accepted for the job and then pay for their endorsement and endorsement only, after which they are REMUNERATED for their line flying services. Please tell me anywhere in the AS web site where it mentions that you gain employment with the company then you the pilot forks out for the endorsement then the 100 co-pilot?

As far as I read it, you pay for the endorsement, then, furthermore YOU PAY TO WORK FOR THEM. There is no mention of employment of any kind by the company after YOU HAVE PAID TO WORK FOR THEM. Any differences?

Your quote:
“It seems that pilots these days think that when they have a CIR and CPL the training is all over ! In fact, its only just begun and as you the Pilot is going to be the one to benefit from advanced training why shouldn’t you pay for it.

Ok, perhaps the pilots that think that what you mention above, are the one’s you mentioned that couldn’t fly a turbine to high standard after 100 hours. Training will always continue throughout any flying career, I think that’s a given for all professional pilots. So, why shouldn’t we pay for the training? Ok then, where does it stop? You get a EMB110 endo and 100 hours co-pilot. You then get a job flying one (interestingly not with AS it would appear). You then pay for the base checks, line checks, route checks, renewals etc. You progress to an airline, after 20 years you make training and check captain. Are you still checked within the company, trained on new SOP’s, new types etc? You bet you are! So Damntalibanman, are you suggesting that we pay for all training throughout our careers. Where does it stop? By your own words you mention that training never stops, you then go on to mention that why shouldn’t be pay for it!

We gotta eat too mate.

Quote:
This deal seems quite useful to a pilot who is looking for some turbine experiance (sic) in a commercial environment.

How is it a commercial environment when you pay to work for them?

Ok Medical specialists:
“Does a Doctor who studies to become a specialist get his training for free ???”

To answer your question no they don’t, they are paid for it! A doctor who wishes to become a specialists works as an already qualified doctor (as you do as a qualified CPL/MEIR) under a specialist doctor.(consider him the PIC if you like). Consider it ICUS, when he has achieved a satisfactory level of knowledge and achievement he fronts his chosen specialty board and all being good he is certified as a specialist.

Does he pay for this training, certainly not. He is paid as a doctor until such time as he becomes a specialist and then he is paid higher by virtue of qualifications received.

Your point sounds like this scenario. I am a qualified doctor. I wish to become a radiologist. I pay for my specialist training. I qualify as a radiologist, I am dirt poor by virtue of every time I’m training to take an x-ray, not only am I paying for the machine and film, but for my supervisory specialist time as well (around 500 bucks an hour). I then pay the hospital to take film of patients so as to build my experience. The patients pay the doctor, I pay the hospital for the use of the machine and then pay the specialist to supervise my work because I’m not yet endorsed on the machine. After completing 100 of training, I may possibly be able to work at a hospital as a specialist, but only on the particular machine I was ‘endorsed on’. Chances of a job are small, not many of that type of machine around, lots of other qualified doctors etc etc. Very far fetched huh, but wait, sound similar to a familiar industry? Paying for training and TO WORK certainly happens in no other than I know of

Please now refer to my first point in my original posting. People who do this kind of rip-off endorsement, pay to fly etc, dilute the industry.

As for your last point, I would hazard a guess, cynical though it may be, that the endorsement would be carried out under or AWK category in a little time as possible, cutting many corners, Imagine the comapany is only taking money for the flight from 1 source!!! The rest of your training I would suggest, would be done on CHTR (PAX or Freight) as this supplies another form of income for the company on the same flight that you are paying to be a ‘crew member of’

Over to you fella

[Chocolate Mylo]

$15,000 for a -bandit endorsement and 100 hours of "high quality" co-pilot time in a single pilot aircraft" :confused: :yuk:

OK, I've just picked myself up off the floor after collapsing with laughter.

If you think you can fly a bandit to a high standard in under 100 hrs your dreaming,..

WHOOPS, I just collapsed on the floor once again, my god my stomach hurts!:D

What an original way to get the other half of a flight crew to provide more revenue for a company. Is it going to be a case of old suckers "training" new suckers the fine art of manipulating the complex tasks involved with driving such a hideous beast such as a Bandit?

Knowing that the company is willing to have FOs pay for their jobs, I'm sure the staff retention rate must be high and that there are a multitude of highly experienced turbine operators employed with valuable operating practice within multicrew situations able to impart priceless lessons on effective CRM.

If you get to start the engines each time and coupled with the above training then the value of such a 15 grand package may be just bordering on ludicrous and not outright off the planet insane.

I'm sure that staff already employed at Air South will welcome the influx of pay for a job suckers knowing that they will be taking any chance they have of warming the Bandits right hand seat. That is unless they decide to pay the company to employ them.

Or maybe the present employees are just so useless that it's better to find new pilots willing to pay for their job. My god, good pilots are hard to find nowadays.

So in summary, we have:

-A company exploiting suckers willing to part with a very large sum of cash for the privilege of co-pilot time in an aircraft that can be flown single pilot.
-Advertising on Pprune in an attempt to attract these suckers.
-Poorly defended arguments when faced with the facts from in the know industry professionals who are attempting to highlight the ludicrous fallacy that 15 grand will be well spent on 100 hours co pilot in a Bandit.
-This is just a way for a charter company with no real training background in either single pilot and especially multi crew operations to get free crew to warm the right hand seat of a simple turbine aircraft.

To those suckers that take up this offer, "fools and their money are easily parted"

To those obvious management types from said company trying rather pathetically to defend such a scheme as being of benefit to anyone, give up, your arguments here will be shot down a hundred times. Just try it on! :*

[Damntalibanman]

Geeez, seems like i've hit a raw nerve ! I'll just crawl back under my rock.

Sorry if i have offended anyone, didn't think it was such a sensitive issue.

:sad:

[downwind]

Damntalibanman,

first of all the course is a rip off for the following reasons:

1. A command Emb 110 rating is around $5000, rip off already to pay 15'000, instead by some multi engine command hours instead, more valuable!
2. After the 100 hrs on the bandit, where do you go?
3. The bandit is really a Single pilot IFR aircraft, so a Co-pilot rating is useless in the real world and F/O hours are useless aswell bit like PA31 F/O hours 100% useless!!! Who flys piston engine a/c in a multicrew enviroment??, ICUS on the machine is really what you want,if you had 500 ME ATPL etc.. then maybe.
4. My advice go and get 500 hrs multi command, some solid GA flying and about 1500 hrs with your ATPL, then give Airlink in PNG a call, if your heart is still set on flying the EMB 110.
5. Since the a/c is less than 5700 kgs you only need for charter ops 10 hrs ICUS to fly it in IFR ops, not the 50 hours ICUS for a/c that are above 5700 kgs.
6. This cousre is a wind up like M#cflite in Qld, to young fresh pilots who need the turbine time. Do the natural progression in GA, much easier on your self!

Damntalibanman, the guys aren't being harsh on you, it is in your best interests not to get screwed by this company.

[sumtingwong]

Damntalibanman,

Apologies if I came on a little strong, with my 'war and peace' diatribe. As downwind does mention, it was not aimed at you personally, just strong advice as mentioned in my first post to think carefully.

Throw in a little frustration at these b**stard companies who will rip off young fools and hopefulls and mearly add to the high level of disinfranchised, frustrated and downright angry G.A pilots.

If these type of comanies spent a 10th of the effort trying to increase their level of pilots training, job satisfaction safety etc as they do coming up with ever more bold ways to rip people off, then what a happier indusrty we would have.

Rant over and again sorry if I came on too strong.

Cheers and good luck

[downwind]

sumtingwong,

Agree 100%

[Jaguar7777]

Since Air south dosent use F/O anyway, is this just their cheap way of putting in copilots since GWA collapsed.

Going for a RPT shot perhaps.

Either way, dont do it for 15 grand.

[marreeman]

Just 1 question Damntalibanman do you have any thing to do with this company? Sounds like your doing some promotion work for them!

[Angle of Attack]

And the requirements are 750 hours total and 250 hours multi? Surely if you had 250 multi youd be on your way with some other operator... unless youd already paid for 250 hours multi which I think would be extremely rare! And if you would like an oppurtunity to fork out $15,500 you have to first apply with a resume to see if you can do it??? Sorry but what the?? Im just going to go and type up a resume to hand to a car dealer so I might be lucky enough to have a chance to pay him for a new car... Personally I wouldnt pay more than a couple of grand for this fiasco course...

[dude65]

[QUOTE]
If these type of comanies spent a 10th of the effort trying to increase their level of pilots training, job satisfaction safety etc as they do coming up with ever more bold ways to rip people off, then what a happier indusrty we would have.

And perhaps another 10% trying to get some more customers through the door. A "Pilot Wanted" add looks a lot better than the "Suckers Wanted" one there currently running.

[Hugh Jarse]

Your point sounds like this scenario. I am a qualified doctor. I wish to become a radiologist. I pay for my specialist training. I qualify as a radiologist, I am dirt poor by virtue of every time I’m training to take an x-ray, not only am I paying for the machine and film, but for my supervisory specialist time as well (around 500 bucks an hour). I then pay the hospital to take film of patients so as to build my experience. The patients pay the doctor, I pay the hospital for the use of the machine and then pay the specialist to supervise my work because I’m not yet endorsed on the machine. After completing 100 of training, I may possibly be able to work at a hospital as a specialist, but only on the particular machine I was ‘endorsed on’. Chances of a job are small, not many of that type of machine around, lots of other qualified doctors etc etc. Very far fetched huh, but wait, sound similar to a familiar industry? Paying for training and TO WORK certainly happens in no other than I know of

Fantastic post, Sumtingwong.:ok: Actually, it sums up this industry to a tee.

Well done:E
--------------------
It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees

[G11]

rearwhelsteer888

How times change hey m8, one of your previous posts seems to indicate that you had a different veiw??


"I KNOW.......
This subject has been done to death but...I reckon that a bit of icus in the right situation is really benificial,no doubt the crap that that mob in portland or where ever they are is offering is a total sham but 20/30 hrs of night freight in something like a PA31 is probably the best kick I could have ever given my career.It got me a multi job.
Get back in a single after that and you wonder what you could do next.....I s that it ...isn't there more to do...
Any way if you are thinking of it go for it ,really well worth it,and dont feel bad about paying for a bit,I know its a bit crumby to pay but its not going to ever change now no matter how much we whinge about it,For gods sake everyone that gets a virgin job slings 30k for a 73 endorsment
Dont any of you out there say you wouldn't find that cash,cos you would be telling porkys.
RWS888"

Yep, typical.................

G11

[marreeman]

G11 I reckon theres a difference here between buying some icus like rws888 is talking about & buying co-pilot time with this mob in question.

[Spinnerhead]

If you are going to spend 15k to be an F/O then at least spend the money on an aircraft in abundance, i.e. a Metro.
However spending that kind of dough even on a Metro, before you have your 1500 and 500 multi is a dumb move.
Australia already has enough F/O's with no command time, and trying to get them proficient at flying single pilot again, to get that command time, is like pulling teeth.

[haughtney1]

These guys are banking on the fact that one or two muppets will take up this scheme...and they will:hmm: ...I'd put money on it!

[Swear Engine Twenty3]

Yeah but you also get a PT6 Awareness Course thrown in aswell..

[morning mungrel]

Geez swear, it'd be worth the cash just for that wouldn't it?:rolleyes:

[Swear Engine Twenty3]

You betcha Mungrel,

Certifies you to become a consultant on awareness...

[Pack2]

Very sad to see people taking money from young pilots in this way.
Bandit...Turbine...PT6...Is not the big deal they would have you believe. During my time in PNG I think it would be fair to say that the company would be more concerned about a pilots ability to handle the C404 than the Bandit and all to do with engine handling. Once a PT6 is self sustaning it is not easy to hurt it. The same cannot be said for the geared engines of the C404.
Moving onto larger aircraft is all about a pilots ability and how well he/she flies generally.
I was fortunate enough to be trained on the Bandit by Rod Marsland but only after comming up from the BN2 and C402. The endorsement lasted a good 2 1/2 hours followed by about 60 hours of line training where I flew the aircraft as captain under supervision from the left seat on normal RPT scheduled routes.
The 60 hrs of line training had nothing to do with the fact that I was flying a bandit but all to do with how to stay alive while flying over complex routes in PNG.
I am only one of many that have benifitted from Rods training and I certainly did not pay $150000 for the privilage, although it would have been worth every penny.