RAF training aircraft

[AerBabe]

Can anyone point me in the direction of a list of the aircraft used for training by the RAF? Those that come to mind are:

Tiger Moth
DH Chipmunk
Harvard
Percival Provost
Grob Tutor
Bulldog
Folland Gnat
Jet Provost
Grob Viking

At the moment I don't mind what kind of training they were used for... but it would be really helpful if you could categorise them!

Many thanks. :ok:

[Biggles Flies Undone]

Depends how far back you want to go, but you could take a look here CFS. (http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/cfshistory.html)

Somewhere in my loft I've got a book called (I think) 'CFS - Birthplace of Air Power' it's a good read and you're welcome to borrow it if it will help.

[spekesoftly]

This (http://www.rafweb.org/Trainers_1.htm) link should cover most types used for RAF training.

[pulse1]

I am reading Bomber Crew at the moment (based on the CH4 programme). Out of that I can add:

Miles Master & Magister
Airspeed Oxford
Avro Anson

[surely not]

Boulton Paul Balliol
Avro 504
Hawker Tomtit
Avro Tutor

[Lowtimer]

Blimey, I know it's made of plastic but how could you leave out the Firefly, or "MGF" as I seem to recall you dubbing it...
But yes, they should have had Yaks instead

Forget not also the Dominie (both versions, the Rapide and the HS125)

[Legalapproach]

Try The History of Britain's Military Training Aircraft by Ray Sturtivant, published by Haynes

[airborne_artist]

Jetstream - now superseded by leased King Airs, for ME pilot trg

Varsity, Pembroke

What about rotary? Hiller, Whirlwind, Gazelle etc.

[henry crun]

Don't forget the Prentice, probably the worst basic trainer the RAF ever had.

[AerBabe]

Hmm... that's a long old list!

Lowtimer - :O I don't know. That was one of the ones I had written down, but I missed it when I posted the question.

I also missed out the Tucano. And, not on my original list, I just thought... Meteor T7 and DH Vampire.

[Yozzer]

Bell 47 Sioux 2FTS-CFS
Westland Whirlwind 2FTS-CFS
Bristol Sycamore CFS
Westland Wessex HU5 & HCII 2FTS
Westland Gazelle 2FTS - CFS
Eurocopter Squirral DHFS
Bell 412 EP Griffin HT1 DHFS & SARTU

Hiller was used by Royal Navy

The inventory of CFS(H) during the first half of 1961 was fourteen aircraft, two Dragonflys, two Whirlwinds (Mk2 and 4), eight Sycamores and two Skeeters (T11 and T12). In November 1961, CFS(H) took delivery of the first turbine engined helicopter, the Whirlwind Mk10.


Has everbody forgotten the Hawk T1

...& to be technically correct:

Cadet TX3 & T21 Sedburgh glider, but now Ive started something!

[Skylark4]

AerBabe,
Just about everything the RAF has ever had has operated in a training role at some point in its life. In fact, when you come to think about it, if we are not at war, most flights are training anyway.

Mike W

Thor was one exception.

[AerBabe]

Skylark4 - Yes, you learn something from every flight... hence all aircraft are trainers. Very true.

The reason for asking this is that I'm trying to put together some aircraft for one of my senior Air Cadets to photograph for the Essex Wing photographic competition. I think I'll stick to primary trainers...

If you have an aircraft that was used for primary training in the RAF, and you're available on May 8th, could you let me know? :ok:

[treadigraph]

Only thing I can add to the list off hand is the Avro Athena, or did that lose out to the Balliol?

AerBabe, why not PM Hairyplane, see if his Magister might be keen to participate?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Various aircraft called Dominie
Vigilant T1 (Grob G109b)
Janus C
Venture


G

[henry crun]

treadigraph: It did.

[BEagle]

Hunter T7
Hunter 'GT6'
Mosquito T3
Lightning T5
Harrier T2 and T4
Jaguar T2

[Sedbergh]

AB

If it's any help, I have access to/use of a T21B in Air Cadets markings

It was used by 614 VGS at Hornchurch/North Weald/Debden in the 1960's.

You'd have get your cadet to Oxfordshire though

[AerBabe]

Thanks Sedbergh (I see now where the name comes from!), that would be great, but actually I'm trying to get as many aircraft as possible in the same place at the same time. Then bring all the cadets from the Squadron across to look. The senior NCO will, of course, be taking photos for the competition! Our Squadron has a Meteor T7 in the car park ... it's a shame we can't bring that along too.

[hairyclameater]

Hunter GT6 - very spurious!!, surely a stripped down single seat F6 with no sabrinas dosnt qualify as a trainer!!??

How about Typhoon T1 (T1 - come on really , how can a trainer come before the fighter variant!!??) or Tornado F2/3(T) or Tornado GR1(T), Harrier T10, Jaguar T4, Lightning T4.. depends how you define "trainer"

I think the Athena T2 did enter service but more of a glider tug than trainer.

[brakedwell]

Piston Provosts were used for basic flying training (120 hours) in the mid fifties followed by advanced training in the Vampire T11, V & IX (also 120 hours) Meteors were also used for a short time for trainees with long legs!.

[izod tester]

Even earlier than the Avro 504 was the de Havilland DH6 of which the RAF still had 1050 at the end of 1918 when they were declared obsolete and sold off.

[CoodaShooda]

And not forgettting the Maurice Farman Longhorn and Shorthorn :cool:

[hairyclameater]

But the RAF didnt exist then!! ;)

[Beeayeate]

. . . and as usual everybody seems to have forgotten the Canberra. The T.4 was/is a training aircraft.

[hairyclameater]

Or the T11 and T19 - "trainers" but not aircrew!

[pr00ne]

hairyclameater,

Are you claiming that Navigators are not aircrew?

Canberra T11 was used to train prospective Javelin navigators in use of the radar. The T19 was just the T11 with the radar removed and used for target facilities.

Avro Athena was used by the RAF Flying College at RAF Manby, 15 were used after losing the fly off for the advanced piston engined trainer that was won by the Balliol, requirement then canned.

Wasn't there something called a Harvard........................

[Gainesy]

Hunter, Lightning, Jaguar T-birds.

[AerBabe]

Errr... didn't I say in a later post that I was going to stick to primary trainers, to keep it simple? And we decided a few days ago that any aircraft can be used for 'training'... ;)

Does anyone know if the Vampire T11 was ever used for primary training? I know the JP was standard, but a couple of people have told me that the T11 was possibly used for one intake.

[brakedwell]

AerBabe
The Vampire T11 was only used for advanced flying training. During my course about 60 hrs dual were flown in the T11 with a similar amount of solo time in clapped out Vampire V & IX's. Piston Provosts were the basic flying training aircraft at that time. I do remember a junior course at Swinderby in 1957 which came from Jet Provost basic training at Hullavinton. Eventually JP's were used for both basic and advanced flying training.

[Onan the Clumsy]

Spitfire T9 (http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=513367&WxsIERv=Fhcreznevar%20Fcvgsver%20G9%20%28509%29&WdsYXMg=Hagvgyrq&QtODMg=Qhksbeq%20%28RTFH%29&ERDLTkt=HX%20-%20Ratynaq&ktODMp=Sroehnel%2014%2C%202004&BP=0&WNEb25u=Avpx%20Fnyzba&xsIERvdWdsY=T-PGVK&MgTUQtODMgKE=Guvf%20zntavsvprag%20gjb-frng%20Fcvgsver%20ortna%20yvsr%20nf%20n%20fvatyr-frng%20US%20Zx9%20va%20Whyl%201942%2C%20onfrq%20va%20gur%20Z rqvgreenarna%20jvgu%20253%20Fdhnqeba.%20Cbfg%20JJVV%20vg%20j nf%20bcrengrq%20ol%20obgu%20gur%20Vgnyvna%20naq%20Vfenryv%20 Nve%20Sbepr.%20Nsgre%20fgnaqvat%20va%20na%20nyzbfg%20qreryvp g%20fgngr%20sbe%20fbzr%20gvzr%2C%20vg%20jnf%20erfgberq%20naq %20pbairegrq%20gb%20G.9%20fgnaqneq%20naq%20znqr%20ure%20znvq ra%20syvtug%20va%201987.&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=449&NEb25uZWxs=2004-02-20%2000%3A00%3A00&ODJ9dvCE=CG462%2FFJ-N&O89Dcjdg=&static=yes&sok=JURER%20%20%28ZNGPU%20%28nvepensg%2Cnveyvar%2Ccynpr%2Ccu bgb_qngr%2Cpbhagel%2Cerznex%2Ccubgbtencure%2Crznvy%2Clrne%2C ert%2Cnvepensg_trarevp%2Cpa%2Cpbqr%29%20NTNVAFG%20%28%27%2B% 22gjb%22%20%2B%22frng%22%20%2B%22fcvgsver%22%27%20VA%20OBBYR NA%20ZBQR%29%29%20%20BEQRE%20OL%20cubgb_vq%20QRFP&photo_nr=1&prev_id=&next_id=NEXTID&size=M) (ok I know it's not primary, but all the good ones have been taken)

What's that on the front of the spinner of the grey a/c in the background? Is that The Mole from Thunderbirds? :confused:

[treadigraph]

RAF never had them Onan! Irish AC, Indian AF did - any others? All converted post-war from MkVIII and IX. Still, looks nice, and gives lucky b*****s a chance for a ride/pole... (ie I'd like a ride please!!)

The aircraft in the background is a Pilatus P2 - the vanes control the prop pitch I believe, faster it goes presumably the prop fines off and reverts to coarse pitch for as it slows to approach speeds. Did I get that the right way round, vp props confoose me!

[Onan the Clumsy]

It looks like something my auntie used to decorate cakes with...only bigger of course.

[hairyclameater]

Oooh Pr00ne ,how could I!!?? I meant pilots!

[poor southerner]

Did the RAf use any Austers for training ?

Prince C trained on an RAF Basset for his multi rating.

[BEagle]

Sort of....

A single Beagle Husky (an Auster-based design) was operated by 5 AEF at Cambridge for many years in RAF colours - it was used for giving CCF/ATC cadets air experience flying.

It had been presented by the TV personality Hughie Green - who himself had been a wartime pilot.

[poor southerner]

Thanks Bea. I take it that's the example operated by Carl.Tyler at spanhoe lodge last time I flew in (2004)?.
Always wondered if the colours were original

[BEagle]

Yes - it used to be XW635 and is now G-AWSW owned by Carl Tyers at Spanhoe.

[pr00ne]

Brakedwell,

The JP wasn't used for advanced flying training, it replaced the Provost T1 in the basic phase and when the Chipmunk was phased out and the RAF went over (briefly, twice!) to all through jet training it effectively replaced the Chipmunk. The Vampire T11 replacement was the Gnat T1 and eventually the Hunter F6/T7 for beanpoles and when they ran out of Gnats.

Hairyclameater,

Aircrew in the loosest possible way................................:)

[brakedwell]

pr00ne
You are right of course, it was a long time ago and my memories are fading! I'm sure the first ex-JP trained course arrived at Swinderby towards the end of 1956 or early in 57. Our nine month Vampire course was extended several weeks as a result of grounding the clapped out Vampire FBV & IX's which tended to go out of control when pushed too fast in a dive. The fact thatwe all saw the film "Sound Barrier" might have had something to do with the loss of two aircraft. Then as a result of Duncan Sandy's axe my Hunter course was taken by over by the Indian Air Force and I finished up on Hastings.

[Weight and Balance]

I don't think anyone has listed the North American built aircraft used by the RAF schools in Canada in WWII:

Fleet Cornell
Stearman Kaydet
Canadian built Anson Mk. V
Beech Expeditor
Cessna Crane

Somebody already said Harvard, didn't they?

No. 5 OTU was a joint RAF/RCAF outfit, and used Mitchells and Liberators to train pilots about nosewheels - new stuff back then.