New enhanced B747

[Chambudzi]

Boeing are supposed to be making adecision on this right now. So who has the inside info/scoop and what have they decided. Will it have a new wing or not. When will it be operational. What will they do with the freed up space in the ceilings and how big will the plug be. What engines will be hung on it and how many pax do they aim to put in it.

[AirQuake]

Answers on a postcard to.......
http://www.airbus.com/customer/customer_support.asp

:ok:

Sits back and waits for the fan to receive multiple impacts. :p

[Sonic Zepplin]

So..............................................What does airbus have to do with this decision.

Do you really think that Boeing is trying to play catchup with Airbus? They made that decision when they moved out of Washington state to Chicago a few years ago.

[Chambudzi]

Exactly Sonic Zepplin.
Unfortunately there are a few kids on this web sight that have nothing better to do.
I asked the 747 question because I know there are people who read this web sight and who have some inside information on the direction Boeing are going with this decision. I also know that the decision is imminent. It is the aviation question of the week right now so hopefully we can get some intelligent answers and the anti Boeing lobby will leave this subject line alone.

[Torquelink]

This from Flight International of 25 - January:

Boeing boss wants board approval to offer A380 spoiler

The Boeing board is expected to decide this week whether to grant authority to offer the 747 Advanced after company president and chief executive Harry Stonecipher personally backed the plan.

Stonecipher is understood to have taken the eleventh-hour decision to seek board approval within 48h of the Airbus A380 roll-out, and made the move following calls from 747 operators for Boeing to make a firm go/no-go commitment to the stretched double-derivative programme (Flight International, 7-13 December 2004). He also signalled renewed interest in the 747-400X at the company's annual leadership meeting in Palm Springs, California.

The decision, if approved, would take the 747 Advanced beyond any previous stretch proposals. The latest plan, which now appears more realistic than the 747-500X/600X effort shelved in the mid-1990s, is also likely to be Boeing's last opportunity to sustain the famous product through the rest of the decade.

A leading launch candidate for the freighter version is Cargolux, which has been given formal presentations, while Cathay Pacific Airways is believed to have expressed interest in the 450-seat stretch. Other candidates historically linked to the project, British Airways and Lufthansa (for the freighter version), are said to have backed off from being involved as potential launch customers.

Boeing declines to comment on any board decision, but says it is "still in detailed discussions with the customers". The aircraft is aimed at a relatively small "200-seat gap" market niche between the 350-seat Airbus A340-600/Boeing 777-300ER and the 555-seat A380. Boeing predicts there could be 400-500 sales in this category over the next 20 years and recently admitted these could be lost to the A380. If Boeing is to offer the stretch, the programme could be formally launched by the end of the year. With this timescale, Boeing will be expected to go for first flight in 2008 for entry-into-service late in 2009.

A key element will be the willingness of General Electric and Rolls-Royce to develop versions of the 7E7 engines, the GEnx and Trent 1000, respectively.

The passenger version will be a stretched variant of the -400ER with a 2.03m (6.6ft) -long plug insert in the double deck forward Section 42 and a 1.53m plug close to the wing trailing edge, increasing length to 74.2m compared with 70.6m for the -400ER production model. The freighter will also be stretched in the same mid-to-aft fuselage position as the passenger model, and incorporate a 3.56m stretch forward of the wing-body join.


:ok:

[NWSRG]

Boeing have a number of options here. If they really go to town, they could do a new wing, FBW, 777-style flightdeck, 787 engines, and maybe even 787 type systems. What they can't really do is significant composite structures, but they can use some composite in specific areas to save weight.

However, all the Boeing comments so far seem to suggest a simple stretch, new engines, and a modified wing. I think the 777 flightdeck is a given though.

I think the more Boeing offer, the larger the market will turn out to be...but I also suspect that they'll play cautious. Remember the more they put on the plane, the more expensive development becomes, and the higher (and riskier) the break even point.

But I would love to see them go the whole hog...I think there is a market for the 747+, that doesn't require the size of the A380. If Boeing build the right 747, I think they could take as many, if not more, sales than the A380.

[Airbus340FO]

A new 747 would be nice.

But I do not believe in it, since if you check the weight of the aircraft compared to an Airbus340 you see the problem.

The Airframe is a design from the early 60´s and even if you put now technical stuff inside, the base is still the same.

Nowadays companies think about fuelconsumption and performance before they buy aircrafts. The 747 needs a new wing. Its design is still from a drawing board and not from a computer. The wing is a classic wingdesign with a high drag and not a supercritical wingdesign as on the 777 or other new aircrafts.

Compared with the Airbus 340-600 the 747-400 needs on a 13h flight 27tons more fuel, but is 27 minutes faster ! ( same wind conditions, same payload ( .83 A340 - .86 747 ). ( .84 A340 - .86 B747 is still 23tons )

Overall the Airbus 346 is capable of taking more payload on this flight then the 747. Sorry I got no data on the 777ER, since we do not have it in our company.

MTOW 368t 340-600 compared to MTOW 395t B747.

If Boeing can reduce the weight of the B747 around 30% and fit the plane with a new wing
and stabilizer and elevator their is a chance.

But wouldn´t it be better to make a totally new design ?

[PaperTiger]

No decision until 'mid-year' according to Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=7514853).

[ATSA2]

I saw the article in Flight Int too....

It has always seemed to me that if there was a market for a "747-400/500/600", then Boeing would have been building it years ago! they were very close around the mid to late 90's witht the 500/600 proposal, but the price was way too high for the potential customers. If you stretch the 747 fuselage by more than a couple of metres, you need a bigger wing to carry the extra weight...bigger engines, aerodynamic tweaks to keep the fuel burn down to affordable levels...
Everyone uses a similar CAD system to design their aircraft, so if you put all this in, it will tell you to build a new aeroplane...something that looks uncannily like an A380!
To put it simply, Boeing have missed the boat! they had a chance to remodel the 747 over 10 years ago, but they just figured that the Europeans wouldnt go ahead with A3xx/A380, so they would have the market to themselves....
Now with the A380 about to fly, and into service around 2007, its too late. the best they can hope for is to sell a few 787's to a few Boeing -loyal airlines, while they get a 737 replacement off the drawing boards and into service...If they dont, with the 757 line winding down, and the 767 line hingeing on the USAF buy of KC-767,s they face oblivion...
I dont want to see Boeing leave the airliner market, i think competition is not only healthy, it essential to keep technology progressing. But Boeing must really pull their finger out NOW, or the only people making airliners bigger than 100 seats will be the guys and gals at Toulouse/Hamburg/Chester/Filton etc....

[AirQuake]

Cham & Sonic

Lower your Blood Pressure my friends,

I was not trying to start an Airbus v Boeing encounter! It was only a bit of levity. Note the emoticons!

The many questions asked, were, to me just the type of things the 'competition' would like to know also.

I'm not interested in an A versus B debate, the bottom line is that since they are the only big players left we need them both.

Anyway....happiness is an aeroplane built by Bristol, or de Havilland, or Vickers (the makers of the original 'bus')
.....................Sighs in a fit of nostalga!

All the Best

AQ

:ouch: