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VoicesFromTheCreche
28th Jan 2005, 12:46
Anyone know whats happening/happened to the Eurofighter?

Not heard anything for a while.

Voices

hyd3failure
28th Jan 2005, 12:56
They are safe and well and flying around a Military airbase in Somerset. Been here all week as well .....what does that mean?

VoicesFromTheCreche
28th Jan 2005, 13:00
Just wondered what they're up to. Do you know if they are properly front line yet?

ZH875
28th Jan 2005, 13:00
They are safe and well and flying around a Military airbase in Somerset. Been here all week as well .....what does that mean?It means that they are lost and need a navigator.:ok:

hyd3failure
28th Jan 2005, 13:04
Quality........ :ok: :ok: :ok:

brakedwell
28th Jan 2005, 13:39
What is a Navigator?

hyd3failure
28th Jan 2005, 14:05
Its what that bloke up there needs so that he can safely guide his sooper duper multi million pound set of rivets safely back to earth.

5206
7th Mar 2005, 18:24
Good news for the boys - Batch 2 RTS was signed off by ACAS today so we'll see some single seater's in action now.

BigginAgain
7th Mar 2005, 18:37
Heard during a recent PI sortie on the east coast, our friends have asked for FL410 for a transit back to Warton, but once level are in potential confliction with an airliner climbing (but still 25nm away).

WC: "Monkey, one stranger blah blah, any chance you can make FL430?"

Monkey 1 "Climbing FL 430".

Twenty seconds later, they are level FL430. Somewhat different to the mighty F3, though it will be interesting to see how they perform dirty (with missiles etc).

BA

Feck
7th Mar 2005, 19:38
'Need' and 'navigator' in the same sentence. Discuss.

Tarnished
7th Mar 2005, 21:33
****,

Need/Navigator???

Single seater has 6 (super-sized) navigators more fuel than the twin seater.

I know which I would rather need.

Biggin,

The missiles and the tank(s) make very little noticable difference to the sort of areas you described.

The jet is awesome, it will take a while before folks realise and acknowledge its full potential, but Batch 2 RTS and Tranche 2 are steps in the right direction.

Tarnished

Safeware
7th Mar 2005, 22:20
Potential - ie not there yet ???

Tarnished
8th Mar 2005, 00:08
Much as I love being British and as proud as I am of having been involved for 8 years of my life in the Typhoon programme, I am increasingly pi$$ed off at comments such as yours Safeware.

In another thread BAESYSTEMS are getting slammed for a takeover of UDI, why is growth in the North American market bad news for heavens sake, a British company doing well in Uncle Sam's backyard?!?!

Typhoon is a world beater, look up potential in a dictionary, I'm sure it will put you straight. Unfulfilled is a word often used with potential, so the aircraft has potential, its up to the air forces flying it to capatalize on it and use it to its best advantage - ie Safeware, its there already.

If you happen to be a Boscombe-based, Q-employed, System Software analyst with an input to this project then there are a raft of folks who would like to meet you (behind a bike shed somewhere).

The folks working for BAES have to battle at every turn with an empire that thrives on not allowing progress, because its supposedly safer than taking the "risk" and accepting the logical proof.

Anyway, bad day on another project, off for a Jack and coke!!

Fly safe, be proud of what we are good at.

Tarnished

A2QFI
8th Mar 2005, 11:03
Typhoon may be a "Worldbeater" but what world? That of the 1980/Cold War etc? First operational a/c for delivery in 2009?

L1011GE
8th Mar 2005, 12:17
A nav equals 3 black boxes on a Tristar

frodo_monkey
8th Mar 2005, 12:24
Pilot = glorified bus driver on a TriStar...

(Straps on armoured flying helmet to await incoming)

:D

L1011GE
8th Mar 2005, 12:44
Big white fun bus soon to be big Grey fun bus

maxburner
8th Mar 2005, 13:55
I'd like to echo Tarnished's thoughts on Typhoon. I got to fly it but once. It was superb. I've flown in a wide selection of military hardware from all over the place, but Typhoon was in a class of its own for performance. Cold war spec or not, if I had to go to war again (anywhere) I'd like to do it in a jet that can piss all over the opposition without breaking sweat. There may be better US products (F22 perhaps) but the advantage of having a European or National software controlled by us is impossible to overstate. And another thing. Expensive though a Typhoon may be, its a drop in the bucket compared to the Raptor.

I think I'll join Tarnished for a Jack and Coke.

Safeware
8th Mar 2005, 16:25
Tarnished
I don't have the experience that you have on Typhoon, I do think it is a great aircraft, and I do think it'll be used to its best advantage by the frontline. I disagree with the 'Cold War relic' label, but do wonder when it is going to match up with what it is supposed to do, and pure EJ driven 9g performance isn't everything.

Poential, adj: capable of coming into being or action, latent

The RAF have everything they need to make it a success. But the project is late for a range of reasons and my comment was solely in that vein and not a slight on those working hard to deliver against the Empire.

Personnally, I think it is great that BAES are getting more into the US market - BAES and UK plc have a number of good products which the Yanks seem happy with - AV8, T45 etc etc so why not exploit it.

The cap doesn't fit, but I thought you company men were supposed to work with Q?

soddim
8th Mar 2005, 16:32
The Typhoo is still jam tomorrow - today it should be on our bread (yesterday, in fact).

One hopes we don't have to say to an adversary - "Just wait a couple of years while we make it work".

That it will be good is just its saving grace.

BEagle
8th Mar 2005, 17:22
Its performance is unbelievable. A few years ago, I was refuelling a pair of EFs. When cleared to leave, the first guy asked for the block FL450-510 or thereabouts, dropped back, plugged in the heaters, came past, pitched to what looked like about an 80 deg climb and a few seconds later reported entering the block. No 2 then left and requested FL480 and was told "Not above FL450 until cleared, one similar type already established in the block FL450-510.....

When would such a call last have been made to an RAF aircraft, I wonder?

Tarnished
8th Mar 2005, 17:24
Soddim,

Just how quickly can jam be made?

Once you have the fruit and the sugar and whatever other ingredients you need plus the sterilzing equipment, the bottling plant, the funny twisty machine that puts the lids on, having tried a good few mixtures and blends, carried out market research, product branding. All this after having established that the soil is good, tilled it, fertilized it, irrigated it, planted and nurtured your chosen variety of fruit, found a location that has the right mix of sunshine and showers. Then you'll have to keep the insects at bay during the growth cycle, employ some workers to pick the fruit (while not eating the really sweet stuff), transport it, clean it, store it in a building you've had to find or build. And oh by the way the Government health and safety inspector drops by every now and again to make sure you're doing it all correctly.

Now where's my (cold) toast??

And now Damson flavour is sooooo last year.

Requirement drafting to declared operational capability with HASs full of jets is money for jam indeed.

T

jindabyne
8th Mar 2005, 20:51
Look - I wasn't goin' to rise - again. But you've made me.

Under this, and another 'name', along with my pal Jacko (sorry, never met), we've continued to give Typhoon its rightful dues (albeit also crticised its political, MoD & industrial shortcomings). I spent more than 20 years alongside Tornado - MoD/flying the thing/marketing it. I then did 12 years (yawn) helping to develop Typhoon in all its forms, and then marketed the beast - never flown it, but sim'd it a lot and have lived around those that have been 'live'.

So what! Boring old fart! But the aircraft is coming alive at last, and though the conception was long ago, that, in modernistic terms, has little to do with its purpose or longevity. If 'you' take great care to consider its current (yes, 17 year old) spec, and, as Tarnished alluded to, its 'potential', the weapon system, is, aside from Raptor, unassailable - for decades. Oh - and I forgot- it's Brit (again sorry, European).

But to most who post here with an opposite, and mostly spotter (inc RAF and old JW), anti-BWoS view (that'll get you going), that matters to me not a jot. Do by all means go for your alternative view, though god knows what'll that be - US, French, eh? With all the attendant lack of performance/spec/software access and development growth in-country etc, etc

Typhoon - jam today, and jam tomorrow.

Safeware
8th Mar 2005, 21:01
So, opposite = wrong?

jindabyne
8th Mar 2005, 21:07
In this debate -- Yup! Another Jack please -----------

Safeware
8th Mar 2005, 21:20
Ah, so not actually a debate then

jindabyne
8th Mar 2005, 21:26
Well go on then -----

Safeware
8th Mar 2005, 21:32
Views, reasons rationale from your perspective for continued absence / less than intended functionality?

mbga9pgf
8th Mar 2005, 21:32
what is wrong with govt saying " we buy, we mod at our risk?"

no mods no buy.

up yours to shirty american and european defence firms.


Lets see who can offer the most competitive deal then...



:p

Zoom
8th Mar 2005, 21:40
So does that canard wing restrict the pilot's lookout? Must do.

jindabyne
8th Mar 2005, 21:44
mg - what??

zoom - oh dear, not again!?

Safeware

Please expand and I'm sure there'll be a response. Absence of what? Functionality? - all part of things more rapidly (perhaps less rapidly than we'd like in some areas - Mod?) expanding.

Leaning on the bar now - over to Tarnished ------- and where the hell is Tarnish1?

Tarnished
8th Mar 2005, 21:52
Ah, the dreaded R word - Risk.

"We'll MOD the aircraft at our own risk" I think NOT!

You have obviously never been involved in the process of getting an aircraft "certificated" "release to service" or whatever guise you wish to call it. Since Crown Indemnity was removed not surprisingly ACAS has been less cavalier to sign off new aircraft and new mods, special trials fits etc. It is a sad truism of the world we live in that when young Biggles stoofs in, there will be a witch hunt, questions will be asked and fingers will be pointed, closely followed by blame, retribution and plagues of frogs.

The end result being, that unless the jet comes with a cast iron warranty, backed up by mountains of evidence in accordance with every known standard under the sun its just not going to crack it through the entry into service route. This is the main area that Q have been fulfilling in behalf of the MOD. IMHO they have too much authority and lack the responsibility to the end user in providing him with useable advice and clearances. But ACAS is not about to just take our word for it.

Sadly it is easier to say a categoric NO than putting the work in to come out with even a qualified YES.

Mr Daniels is doing well from this thread, must be nearly time for a blast.

T

Jindabyne, your old mucker was Tarnish 7, if you\'re on about the human whirlwind.

Zoom, only about the outboard 1/4 of the foreplane is visible from the normal sitting position, no one who has flown the jet has made any adverse comment - view from the office equal to F16/F15 but with far better birdstrike protection.

Safeware, clearance process, risk averse culture, money on the gov\'mt side. Clearance process, risk averse culture and managing change on industry side

T

jindabyne
8th Mar 2005, 22:09
T'd,

Oops, if you're referring to now thin Oz-man. No more time now for blasting here from me - off to the Smoke and things (more Jack) in the RAFC for a coupla days with old farts such as NF and old EF tales -----

Safeware
8th Mar 2005, 22:15
I agree with Tarnished about Mod'ing our own aircraft. Who would carry out the Mod's? Given the complexity of a/c such as Typhoon, who other than the DO would want to take on the task?

As regards risk, I think you're wrong. Life has its risks, flying more-so, military flying greater etc etc. Therefore, when things go wrong, as they do, I don't think that a witch hunt is justified when the risks are well understood. If something unusual happens, investigate it, figure out why it wasn't identified as a risk before and manage accordingly. Unless you can deliver a risk free product, then there is no cast iron guarantee.

As an Engineer, I have never aimed to stop aircraft flying - that equals failure for me. What I have always aimed for is for those in authority, whether it be a pilot as he comes to sign for the jet or our lords and masters to understand and accept the risks.

I think you'll find that Q has no authority, and try to give the best advice possible, even a qualified 'yes'.

With 'Clearance Process' your first problem area on both sides why don't both sides put more effort into making the process more effective for all?

I think it is as much a technology issue as anything else. Too much was vested in the holy grail of technology in general and particularly computing power and the systems on a/c today (but designed so long ago) are no longer capable of coping. Until the a/c gets a new architecture, it is limited. There is only so much jam you can get into your jar.

soddim
8th Mar 2005, 22:39
Tarnished,

You asked "Just how quickly can jam be made?"

Perhaps our current situation is that we have some very expensive jam that took far longer to make than we expected but it still cannot be spread to any good effect. Yes, it is very good to work with and offers far superior performance than the usual makers product but it is still damn all use on toast.

Trumpet_trousers
8th Mar 2005, 23:17
...be a good chap and check your personal email accounts if you will....:ok:

BootFlap
9th Mar 2005, 11:04
Tarnished

"We\'ll MOD the aircraft at our own risk" I think NOT!

Methinks you are mistaken! Service Modifications are alive and well, and an accepted part of the equation.


The end result being, that unless the jet comes with a cast iron warranty, backed up by mountains of evidence in accordance with every known standard under the sun its just not going to crack it through the entry into service route. This is the main area that Q have been fulfilling in behalf of the MOD.

Untrue. As long as risk has been reduced iaw ALARP (As Low As Reasonably Practical) then the aircraft / mod / weapon is likely to be accepted and gain Release to Service. This is applied on a case by case basis, and common sense is applied. QQ are used to offer independent advice, but it is up to the Service to decide whether to accept DA advice, QQ, other 3rd party reports. If needs must, then the Service may also disregard any or all of the above, but accepts that final liability rests with the Service. I appreciate there are many who are \'risk averse\' out there, but there are also many who use that finest of gifts, common sense. These may be in QQ, BAES or the military. Please don\'t \'tarnish\' all with the same brush (pun intended). Ultimately we do have to balance operational need with risk. That is what we do, whether it is bringing an aircraft into Service, or planning our 4-ship attack.

By the way, it does go like the absolute proverbial sh%t off a shovel!!!!! Just a shame it can\'t hover!:ok:

Zoom
9th Mar 2005, 17:27
Tarnished
Ta for the gen about the canard. It's been bugging me since I sat in the wooden version back in 1983.

jimgriff
9th Mar 2005, 17:38
It would seem to me that almost 95% of those who slag off the Typhoon have never even seen one let alone flown it and that they believe all the bo110cks and hype published about the a/c and programme. I am not a pilot, but I have seen one (in the wild) and I think it the canines cahoonies. If half of what we hear from those in the know (Tarnished, maxburner et al) then hey...lets celebrate!! They cant and wont tell you every single + thing about the kit.

I dont drink JD, but I may have had a few too many pimms':O

PPRuNeUser0172
9th Mar 2005, 17:43
Anyway lets get this thread back to the very important topic of bantering Navs, afterall, this aircraft ensures their ultimate demise

Please let me fly one.............I remember all the hype at IOT and BFJT, "you guys will be perfectly timed for ab initio Typhoon slots".....hmmmm maybe my grandkids will be:{

Regards

ATSA2
11th Mar 2005, 11:25
Just a two cents worth ...

I think Typhoon is the best bit of kit that the RAF has had for years.. Its airshow displays are bloody stunning, it puts tears in my eyes!but PLEASE get it sorted and into service some time before I am too old to go and watch a QRA scramble of them! EAP flew at Farnboro in 1986, I saw P.02 at Farnboro nearly 10 years ago. It has been on the drawing board for the best part of 20 years now..if miltary aircraft procurement had always been this slow, we would have fought Bf109's over Kent in 1940 with Sopwith Snipes!
I know you guys say its worth the wait, but this is taking the p!

Archimedes
11th Mar 2005, 11:30
ATSA,

if miltary aircraft procurement had always been this slow, we would have fought Bf109's over Kent in 1940 with Sopwith Snipes!

Almost true - but the Germans would have claimed that there was no need for the Bf109, and would have found themselves using the Fokker DVII as their main aircraft...

ATSA2
12th Mar 2005, 00:23
Fokker DVII v Sopwith Snipe...Hmmmm, a pretty even match! But I digress!
In this age of "missile Platforms" where avionics are king, surely the bugs could have been ironed out by now? Please dont misunderstand me, Typhoon is a bloody brilliant piece of kit, it can run rings round anything the former Soviet bloc can throw against it, and can show Rafale a clean pair of heels, probably out fight a F-22, given the circumstances, but why is it taking so long? The Tornado F3 isnt exactly a "Top Gun", and the Jags, bless em, must be near to falling to bits, so lets a get a few Sqns actually flying it in something like an operational sense, and bury the critics once and for all..actions speak louder than words!

Or am I just being Naive?

BigginAgain
12th Mar 2005, 19:40
ATSA2 Said:

PLEASE get it sorted and into service some time before I am too old to go and watch a QRA scramble of them!

Never mind avionics, I think it will need a Gun AND Ammo AND Approval to Use them for that to happen! Worrying given the current state of the F3 Fleet.

Nice ac, shame about the Treasury.

;)

BA

Bag Man
13th Mar 2005, 06:30
It might look cool, and be amazing to fly, and sound good when you buzz your mummies house but, do tell, just how is it going to contribute to the minimization of the terrorist threat.

Crabs!!!

Trumpet_trousers
13th Mar 2005, 09:32
It might look cool, and be amazing to fly, and sound good when you buzz your mummies house but, do tell, just how is it going to contribute to the minimization of the terrorist threat

....I suggest you concentrate more on keeping your helos off the seabed before you start to throw stones......not much use 'fighting terrorists' several fathoms under, now is it? :mad:

Bag Man
13th Mar 2005, 09:57
D

ATFQ!


TT

ATFQ!

Trumpet_trousers
13th Mar 2005, 10:13
Bag Man


GAL!

Bag Man
13th Mar 2005, 12:06
TT

ATFQ! If you can't then admit it and we can move forward - together - dressed in PURPLE - and not a mucky Kossack grey.

engineer(retard)
13th Mar 2005, 13:22
Bag Man

I'm trying to avoid getting into the slagging match that has broken out but do you not believe that a credible air defence capability and a precision muntion delivery capabiltiy to be a strand of defence/offensive capability against a terrorist threat.

And why this complete focus on the terrorist threat, it's not the only thing the military has been doing for the last 10 years and I suspect not the only issue to be dealt with in the next 10. Been a while since I looked but I believe that our military intent is more than anti-terrorism.

How does this also fit into the argument for retaining an air defence capability such as has been raging on the SHAR thread, could you not argue against SHAR retention on the same basis?

Biggin

AFAIK it does have a gun that uses the same ammo as Tonka and JSF but is short of a loader.

Regards

retard

soddim
13th Mar 2005, 13:28
Just to give this thread a break from the exchange of insulting posts, a word or two of advice for the new aircraft worshippers.

When the Jaguar was spanking new in service a number of the first RAF pilots sang its praises far too loudly and completely ignored all its shortcomings. The net result was great difficulty for many years procuring funding to correct the many deficiencies. The attitude to extra funding was "if it is so good why do you need extra money?".

If you shout the attributes of this new 'wonder' jet too loudly before it has any operational capability you are in danger of repeating a hard won lesson.

Bag Man
13th Mar 2005, 13:54
soddim

Well said.

The SKASaC has a reputation of being able to do anything for anybody (thanks to some over-keen marketing) - but we are critically bereft of radios. DEC ISTAR doesn't give a sh1t.

I DO!

Why? Because we have information comming into the aircraft and are unable to pass it on to those who could use it to save lives - be it fish-head, airman or pongo.

SirToppamHat
13th Mar 2005, 14:43
BagMan

Am I right in understanding (following the recent JMC) that the DEC is looking at including a 'Windscreen Replacement Clause' in the next insurance policy? ;)

You're right about the radios though, very frustrating, and I am sure we on the ground only hear a fraction of the AAWC Freq!

Regards

STH

Bag Man
14th Mar 2005, 06:08
STH

Nothing wrong with our windscreens - any more ;-)

bigflyingrob
14th Mar 2005, 06:42
Does anyone know who we are going to use this against?

engineer(retard)
14th Mar 2005, 11:05
BFG

Ask Tony. Otherwise see below, can't deny it's a gripping read, but in answer to your question I commend the operational context to you:

http://www.mod.uk/linked_files/jdcc/publications/jwp3_63.pdf

Regards

Retard

KPax
14th Mar 2005, 14:39
Just watched Defence Questions in Parliament (yes I know it's sad), and Buffoon was asked about Tranche 3 and whether any decisions had been made. His reply was 'still under discussion', the follow up question was, 'the RAF have said they will not have enough pilots to man tranche 3 ac, Buffoon refused to comment. Is this true?. The Tory man said he was qouting the MOD.

the_flying_cop
14th Mar 2005, 16:39
i love the typhoon, whenever i have seen and heard it i stand in awe. the guys who drive it, i have spoken with some and they love it. why shouldnt they be. its brand spankin cuttin edge technology which we have built at home.

yes its late, yes its expensive but if there is a job for it to do then im sure it will devour it.

just an aside soddim, can you shed light on what was wrong with the jaguar when it first came out. i spent many a happy time at coltishall drooling over that too.

any lets not get too excited about the typhoon, but also lets look at the acomplishment of british (ahem european) engineering and design. its easy to berate something that only a handful of people have had first hand experience of.

give me 1 british (grrrr european) aircraft any day and i would pay 15 times more than i would for an american equivalent.

Matrix Marauder
14th Mar 2005, 17:08
TFC,

You have to be joking!!
F3 v F15!!
Jag v F16!!
EFA v JSF/YF22!!! Or even the F15E!

jindabyne
14th Mar 2005, 17:32
MM

What's this EFA then?

If you mean Typhoon, then you clearly haven't studied its spec wrt JSF or 15E (!). And as for F22 (!!), you also can't have appreciated all that has been sensibly said before on this forum.

Please don't let's have another p*****g contest debate. Look to the future: for a change it's not too bad at all (that is, in parts, potentially - just to be slightly provactive).

engineer(retard)
14th Mar 2005, 17:45
JSF & F22 aren't they only potential capabilities and when are they actually going to deliver something?

Safeware
14th Mar 2005, 18:17
JSF and F22 are just as likely to suffer the technology issues that Typhoon is suffering. Only difference is that Uncle Sam will throw more bucks at it to resolve the problems more quickly than UK/Nations do.

A2QFI
15th Mar 2005, 09:22
I used to work at these heights in the mid-60s based in Cyprus; I wasn't flying anything that had taken 15 years not to get into worthwhile service either.