Gazelle: Flying, operating, buying

[Epiphany]

Sealion - No I didn't know about the Gazelle but I already knew that I was 'history' when I took my wife to the museum a few years ago and saw the Scout which I flew in as an Airgunner. There is also a photo of me firing a TOW missile from a Lynx. Seems like only yesterday............eeek! :sad:

I'm also told that those rocket pods for the Falklands campaign in 1982 were sourced from the old museum!

[Savoia]

.
Another take of Estepo's 'girl' plus one of similar hue!

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/__dRpfF8qlVM/TbBjePJg1BI/AAAAAAAACz8/-ztES_QhKis/SA341C%20HT2%20Shoreham%2020%20Mar%2009%20%28Martin%20Stephe n%29.jpg
SA 341C HT2 at Shoreham on 20th March 2009 (Photo: Martin Stephen)

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/__dRpfF8qlVM/TbBjzYMHTGI/AAAAAAAAC0E/mrRVXhk_rJo/SA341B%20AH1%20Wolverhampton%2024%20Apr%2009%20%28Robert%20B eaver%29.jpg
SA 341B AH1 at Wolverhampton's Ha'penny Green on 24th April 2009 (Photo: Robert Beaver)

Sav

[SilsoeSid]

ZA737, an old friend;

1986 ACM Cse
1990 APC
1994 MW
1995 'Gaz 3'

Air-Britain : ZA737 (http://www.abpic.co.uk/search.php?q=ZA737&u=reg)

[StAn gelo]

A few slightly more recent pics for the thread - ZB669 , XZ326 and N565F
http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj122/vortex003/ZB669_4_280407-1.jpg

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj122/vortex003/XZ326_3_110408-2.jpg

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj122/vortex003/N565F_3A_170710.jpg

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj122/vortex003/N565F_4A_170710.jpg

:ok:

[gsa]

I'm also told that those rocket pods for the Falklands campaign in 1982 were sourced from the old museum

I though they came from Matra, there was a write up somewhere that Wallop had planning to send a Beaver to a major airport in France to pick some up for trials and the French said no way it's to slow to land so they had to get an RAF HS125 to do the job.

[DennisK]

Gazelle N565F the subject of my BLADES air test is now sold. (a good heli will always sell and 565F was surely that!) Dennis K

[toptobottom]

N565F is a great machine, despite an almost expired MRH and belts. JT, the previous owner looked after it well :ok:

[Zishelix]

Excuse me for off topic, just wonder if any of you gents might know our member Sycamore is well? I try to contact him via PM but no answer yet.

Sorry once again for misusing the thread... :O

[Heli-Jock]

Hi Guys,
Would any of you have a computerised spreadsheet that can calculate the weight and balance of a gazelle helicopter, that includes the graphs to show where the centre of gravity will be?

I have these spreadsheets for R44 and Longrangers / Jet Rangers but don't have Gazzelle and im not clever enough to design my own with the graphs.:ugh:

Thanx for any efforts in advance.

HJ

[ericferret]

Does anyone have a set of maintenance training course notes for the Gazelle and the Astazou 111.
I have access to a set of British military notes which are not brilliant.
Sight of an Aerospatiale /Turbomeca set is what I am looking for.

Regards
eric

[md 600 driver]

eric
you could try this it may be what you want
COPY SA 341 Gazelle Helicopter Instruction Manual | eBay UK (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/COPY-SA-341-Gazelle-Helicopter-Instruction-Manual-/250803825051?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a6512a99b)

i have all the manuals MDE,IPC,PMV, for cvil gazelles

[ericferret]

Thanks for that MD 600. I had already seen it and winced at the price especially as it's a copy. Then there's the freight!!!!!

I found the engine notes at a more reasonable 38 dollars on disc.

Thanks anyway.

[Savoia]

.
SA 341G and ex-Military Gazelle Check Flight Certificate (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1455/srg_flt_AFTS168-02-14042007.pdf)

[NutLoose]

There are 30 MORE EX MILITARY ONES FOR SALE, SEE

Gazelle , AH-1 Military Helicopters , #29696 - MOD Sales, Military Vehicles & Ex MOD Land Rovers for Sale (http://www.mod-sales.com/direct/vehicle/,95,/29696/Gazelle_.htm)

[toptobottom]

Wot? No naked ladies??!!!

[NutLoose]

Sadly not, must be their humour, if you look under armoured and at the £15 grand bulletproof jags you will see all the Gazelles lined up in one picture

[Savoia]

.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-rJ_TrFAgzug/TgWaDv5W6rI/AAAAAAAADsI/1I5-kFhSfUU/1941499.jpg
SA341F Gazelle cn: 1415 at Paris Airshow on 22nd June 2011

This modified ex-ALAT aircraft was displayed to demonstrate the feasibility arming the Gazelle with rocket launchers, cannon and surveillance equipment.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-RHp3yLemPzw/TgWaQuM6HHI/AAAAAAAADsM/ISpw4xrSgEo/1941498.jpg
The 'new' panel

The flight manual supplement with this equipment installed reads:

IMPORTANT NOTE: With co-pilot surveillance-control joy-stick extended, pilot manoeuvres are restricted to left-hand turns only. The PIC should ensure that prior to extension of the co-pilot's surveillance-control joy-stick, no manoeuvres involving right-hand cyclic applications are required. ;)

(Photos: Mick Bajcar)

[timex]

Single Pilot....the way ahead..Lol:ok::ok:

[9Aplus]

We requested more info on ex MOD sale....
We are looking to sell these as is direct from storage.
It will be the purchasers responsibility to return these aircraft to airworthiness. All aircraft hours and component times Etc. are on RAM and we have these on disc which we can provide for all of the aircraft for a deposit of £50 which is refundable on a purchase of one or a number of aircraft.
We have a guide price of £75,000 to £175,000 but there will be several cheaper ones suitable for spares or rebuild. Our preferance would be to sell the whole lot as one batch with a quantity of approx 120 spare blades. We would be looking for offers around £2,000,000.
If you are expecting to export a full export licence with an end user declaration is required which normally takes 8 to 10 weeks to obtain.
The helicopters are available to be viewed at our facilityThan our question was:
Thank You for your kind&quick response...

How many units are complete?
Out of that number, how many are with more that 300 h on remain time resources?

Regards

About week ago, still no answer :sad:
Just like to let you, fellows, know about that .....

[311kph]

IMPORTANT NOTE: With co-pilot surveillance-control joy-stick extended, pilot manoeuvres are restricted to left-hand turns only. The PIC should ensure that prior to extension of the co-pilot's surveillance-control joy-stick, no manoeuvres involving right-hand cyclic applications are required.

this is ridiculous!!! don't belive it :ugh: :=

[Zishelix]

Seams there's a limit of putting hi-tech gadgets on this 40+ lady.
No right-hand turns for a combat theatre machine!? Ridiculous at least :)

[Zishelix]

Well done, Savoia :O

Can't find a "donkey smilie" to illustrate my feeling :)

[PEASACAKE]

ERIC THE FERRET

I attended the training school at Aerospatiale in 1986.

I have a "as new condition" flight instruction manual and a copy of the maintenance training notes for SA341G.

FREE if you want them.

[Flying Lawyer]

I'd be very interested in the flight instruction manual if that's available.
I fly the Gazelle and have been trying for years, without success, to get hold of a copy.
Not the maintenance training notes - I have to leave technical stuff to the experts!


Tudor

[toptobottom]

FL - someone's trying to get hold of you - clicky (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/456096-flying-lawyer.html)

[md 600 driver]

tudor


do you want the uk mil one ,341G or 342J or 342L1

let me know i will send it to you

steve

[ericferret]

Thanks for the offer PEASACAKE I have sent you a PM.

ERIC

[Heli-Jock]

I also have the Flight Manual on computer that i can e mail anyone should they want it?
Its for the SA341G and 342G.

Lets know.

HJ

[craftlover]

Hi all, I finally made the leap from lurker to poster! Does anybody have information on Daily Inspections and Pre-departure Inspections for the Gazelle? This is for an upcoming project and any information at all would be grealty apprecitated.

Thanks

[311kph]

http://http://www.uasvision.com/2011/09/20/qinetiq-and-northrop-offer-unmanned-gazelle-to-uk/ (http://http//www.uasvision.com/2011/09/20/qinetiq-and-northrop-offer-unmanned-gazelle-to-uk/)

Qinetiq has joined forces with Northrop Grumman to offer what it has described as a low-cost, short-term solution for an emerging Royal Navy requirement to field a vertical take-off and landing unmanned aircraft system (VTUAS).The companies are proposing a demonstration programme which would take one of the UK’s Eurocopter Gazelle light helicopters and equip it with the vehicle management system equipment from the US Navy’s Northrop MQ-8B Fire Scout.
Use of the aircraft over the next few years would help inform the navy’s requirements and decision-making process, as it seeks to acquire an operational VTUAS post-2020, said Jeremy Howitt, Qinetiq’s assistant technical director, avionics. The proposal would modify a Gazelle light helicopter with the vehicle management system equipment from the US Navy’s Northrop MQ-8B Fire Scout. ”Using the Gazelle as a platform makes sense – it’s a proven system with low support and operating costs. We could bring in a capability a lot sooner than the navy currently believes is possible,” he said.
Qinetiq would be responsible for programme management and integration activities under the proposal, which would also include flight test activities from the West Wales UAV Centre at Aberporth. ”Unmanning an aircraft is the relatively easy part. The difficult part is providing the multiple levels of redundancy and failure management required that allows you to deliver military effect,” he added. ”We could do an initial demonstration within 12 months, and within the order of £10 million [$15.8 million],” Howitt said at the Defence & Security Equipment International (DSEi) exhibition in London.
Some discussions have been held with senior navy officials, but funding is not yet in place for the service’s proposed tactical maritime UAS programme. If advanced, this could deliver an operational capability by around 2024.
Northrop has already repackaged its mission equipment for the Fire Scout – which has recently been operated over Afghanistan and Libya – for integration with the Bell 407, to deliver a future MQ-8C capability to the US Navy. The service recently announced plans to buy 28 of the new aircraft, which Northrop said will have an operating endurance of almost 15 hours.

[bolkow]

Does anybody know if back in the mid eighties there was a gazelle (civilian) on the Irish register. Saw one once with a cameraman perched on the side of it in the Rosslare area filming shots of a house and later at the ligthhouse Tuskar Rock for an advertisement for sandtex, apparently botht he house and lighthouse were a that time recently painted with this substance. Did'nt get close enough to see the registration (whether UK or Irish) but dotn recall ever seeing a gazelle before that point or since. It was dark in colour but a fantastic sight to see as it come down into a hover in a field nearby to take a shoot.

[500 Fan]

There is no Gazelle listed as ever being on the Irish Register, as far as I can tell. I guess the only Irish Gazelles were those flown by the Irish Air Corps.

Rotorspot is currently showing BO-105CBS EI-LIT as Withdrawn-From-Use.

500 Fan.

[bolkow]

thanks for that 500 fan. I guess the gazelle may have been UK machine then. If IH or CHC sell BLD I wonder if their intention is to use LIT or bring it back into service as a back up to ILS. As far as I am aware its only got around 10000 airframe hours, and as it is a stretch bolkopw it would possibly be better as a back up than BLD which was always tight on legroom in the back. My understanding was that a condition of the contract was that a back up machine had to be available in the event or the primary being down for any reason including overhauls but I may be incorrect.
Just checked that site and read LIT is permanently withdrawn? A young airframe hours wise and its a stretch, maybe its just me, I thought they would go on forever.

[Shane101]

It was probably G-UZEL, Joe Keelings machine (of Keelings fruit)
Based in Knocksedan from around 1990-94ish
John Tickner(ex Army Air Corps) flew it for him
I got to ride in the back while they did the tracking whilst on school work experience in 93
Nice machine, navy with red stripes
Went on to "star" in an East 17 video

[bolkow]

Looked up a pic of that gazelle shane and from the look of it it could well be the one I saw that time. Did'nt know there was one based in Ireland at all apart from the Air Corps machines that 500 fan mentioned, but it sure was a sleek and fast looking piece of kit.

[Zishelix]

How about exG-WMAN Photo of Aerospatiale SA341G Gazelle, G-WMAN, James Wightman (http://worldairpics.com/photo/1002895/M/) Not in the EI Register, but was there (Ballynahinch) at the time... right?
-----------------
Oups, my bad, WMAN wasn't before Aug99 :O

[bolkow]

wman was the wrong colours, though I cant be certain of the coulour it was dark.

[Shane101]

East 17 Let it Rain - YouTube

This video came out just after G-UZEL had left after a good few years in Ireland. G-WMAN came to Ireland more more recently.

Perhaps there were other foreign reg Gazelles in the country before that but I had never heard of any. Anythings possible though.

Enjoy the great video ;)
Best shot of the aircreft is 3 minutes in

[EddieHeli]

"We could do an initial demonstration within 12 months, and within the order of £10 million [$15.8 million],” Howitt said at the Defence & Security Equipment International (DSEi) exhibition in London."

You just know these people are working with government money and don't live in the real world with that sort of number.

What on earth can cost £10 million using an available airframe, which the MOD already have available for sale for around £100k.

I'll do it for £5million, with a guarantee of giving £4million back if it doesn't work. This is after all only a demo version.

And people wonder why the country is bankrupt.

[Ian Corrigible]

EddieHeli - Don't disagree, but bear in mind the basic platform is only a fraction of overall air vehicle costs. The MQ-8B Fire Scout, based on a $1M S-333, has a unit cost of $9-10M (that's per air vehicle, with three UAVs per system).

To paraphrase Mel Brooks, in the world of UAVs it's good to be the system integrator.

I/C

[sbdorset]

i know it has been aired before on the forum some time ago, but does anyone have a copy electronically of a Mk1,2,3 aircrew manual? Am in the process of making an offer for an ex MOD aircraft and need to refresh my memory on a couple of issues....

[Fake Sealion]

If you mean the tri-service AP101 aircrew Manual - its available as a CD on ebay for about seven quid.

[sbdorset]

Thanks, I'll take a look. Last one I looked at was paper only and sold out.

[Fake Sealion]

I just searched "gazelle manual" on ebay and found it.

We are the same age - are you also an ex Gazelle driver?

[md 600 driver]

sent you private message if you reply with your details i will email to you

[sbdorset]

yes, ex RN, CFS(H) last job in the 80's!!

[md 600 driver]

One of yours then fake sea lion

Steve

[9Aplus]

SA341G approx. 800 h remain on turbine (Astazou IIIB)

What are available options after that, in case that helicopter is under EASA Annex II
:E

[md 600 driver]

there is only one option to overhaul it but as it is the astazou 111B which is a yugoslavian licenced engine you proberbly would have to send it to serbia or whatever yugo is known as now

111A,XIV/H goes back to turbomeca agents

but it would be very expensive

[Fake Sealion]

One of yours then fake sea lion

Steve

Yes indeed - Just sent a PM :ok:

[9Aplus]

Tnx MD :ok:

How about this:
Conversion from non-civil use.
Case 1: ASTAZOU III A engines originally assembled by Turbomeca may have been in service with
military, customs, police or other operators not under the jurisdiction of a civil Authority. This is known to
apply to, but is not limited to, engines installed in the Eurocopter SA 341 G GAZELLE helicopter.
Case 2: ASTAZOU III A engines can be created by converting ASTAZOU III B engines. The ASTAZOU
III B is a military variant of the ASTAZOU III A, known to be installed in, but not limited to, a military
variant of the Eurocopter SA 341 G GAZELLE helicopter.
The compliance of Case 1 and Case 2 engines with the European rules enabling issuance of an aircraft
standard certificate of airworthiness must be checked. Their configuration, including design changes and
repairs, does not necessarily conform to the type definition approved by EASA, and it is possible that in
operation they have exceeded the limits approved by EASA. Before a standard certificate of
airworthiness is issued to an aircraft in which a Case 1 or Case 2 ASTAZOU III A turboshaft engine is
installed, an EASA Form 1 must be issued for the engine. This requires incorporation of TURBOMECA
Mandatory Service Bulletin A268 72 0801, Original Issue (or any subsequent approved issue) for Case 1
engines, and Mandatory Service Bulletin A268 72 0803, Original Issue (or any subsequent approved
issue) for Case 2 engines.

Source:
http://www.easa.eu.int/certification/type-certificates/docs/engines/EASA-TCDS-E.071_Turbomeca_ASTAZOU_III_A_series_engines-03-21042009.pdf

[md 600 driver]

i know about this but it would be no use to you as its converting 111b engines [military yugo] to civil 111a engines you want it the other way round 111a to 111b

as long as you did mean



quote SA341G approx. 800 h remain on turbine (Astazou IIIB)
What are available options after that, in case that helicopter is under EASA Annex II

[9Aplus]

I like to have any feasible solution after IIIB goes out of resources...
perhaps one, that cost much less than 1 M S for brand new one :}

[md 600 driver]

what model gazelle do you have ?

is it civvy or mil?

french or made under licence ?

registry of helicopter ?

it also depends on what your aviation authoritys rules are
your quote SA341G approx. 800 h remain on turbine (Astazou IIIB) could be a bit missleading as a 341g should have a astazou 111a engine anyway according to the type data certificate for the 341g if its a 341h hera it should have a 111b engine


but if its a 111b engine moma in yugo are still supporting it and they do very cheap overhauls as long as you caa will exept it

[9Aplus]

:cool: right to the point.... no more questions....:D

[Heli-Union]

Not too many Gazelles for sale in past 2-3 years but this one (http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/AEROSPATIALE-SA341/1973-AEROSPATIALE-SA341/1232725.htm) is one is on the market for about $200k - being sold direct by owner (http://www.accworld.com.ua/).

[md 600 driver]

I think there may be a problem putting that one on a eu reg as it has the old fixed skids on. Ok on n reg though

[Hughes500]

MD600
How can you tell. look the same to me ?

[md 600 driver]

500
If you look at the cabin picture on the advert there is a extra lever on the roof to lock /unlock the barbecue plate the skids and legs are slightly thinner and the fixing of the rear skid legs are different there is a damper on each side

Steve

One thing I've never understood is why it's called a barbecue plate

[Hughes500]

Steve

It could be said that you are quite sad !!!

[md 600 driver]

andy
if i wasnt sad you would not have known

in another life i could have aspired to be a spotter ""

[Savoia]

On the surface it seems a fair price for the Gazelle in Heli-Union's link.

I see she is at 8,000 hrs. What are some of the typical TBO's for the Gaz .. ie. engine, airframe and major components?

[Hughes500]

Steve

Now spotter sums you up nicely !!!!!!!!!;)

[Heli-Union]

"What are some of the typical TBO's for the Gaz "

These are some typical TBOs and SLLs but of course it change for different model:

Engine (Astazou 3N2): 2500 heures TBO
Main Rotor Blades: On-Condition (Indefinite)
Main Rotor Head: 2400 heures TBO
Main Gear Box: 3200 heures TBO
Intermediate Gear Box: 4000 heures TBO
Tail Gear Box: 2400 heures TBO
Main Hydraulic Servos (3 off): 2400 heures TBO
Tail Hydraulic Servo: 1800 heures TBO
Hydraulic Power Pack: 3200 heures TBO
Clutch Assy.: On-Condition but Internal Bearings have 1500 heures SLL / Service Life Limit
Free Wheel Assy.: On-Condition but Flanged Bearing has 1200 heures SLL
Inclined Drive Shaft: 3100 heures SLL
Horizontal Drive Shaft: 4000 heures SLL
Tail Rotor Connecting Shaft: 12500 heures SLL

[Anthony Supplebottom]

Dumfries and Galloway | Border - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/border/topic/dumfries-and-galloway/)

If you look at the first video in this article you'll see one of the smoothest Gazelle landings ever.

Just what granny ordered! :ok:

[SARWannabe]

@AS

If you look at the first video in this article you'll see one of the smoothest Gazelle landings ever.

L O L :D

[SilsoeSid]

So good in fact, it was bordering on the dynamic :eek:

[Agaricus bisporus]

Ironic that the advert directly above that clip was for "tips to avoid rogue traders..."

Not that I'm suggesting anything commercially inappropriate there, just that the standard of piloting seemed somewhat wanting.

[[email protected]]

To quote an ex SAR Stds pilot - 'Did we land......or were we shot down?'

[RINKER]

I dont know the pilot or his experience, but I remember transitioning from Robbies onto The Gazelle and found it easy to overcontrol as the controls were so light and add in the RH skid low hover attitude and the opposite turning main rotor, made for some interesting times for me anyway. Also he's landing in front of a camera and possibly a crowd so probably causing him to tense up on the controls.Still not a landing my instructor or I personally would have been happy with.
R

[xbdt]

If he was landing this hard onto concrete, due to ground resonance the helicopter might have been shaken apart. Luckily for him it did not happen, because I don't think this guy would know what to do in that situation.

[SilsoeSid]

Is that G-BXTH (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=detailnosummary&fullregmark=BXTH) and the Rally Driver Murray Grierson?

Previous PPRuNe thread (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/109857-helicopter-crash-scotland-1400-22-nov.html)
AAIB report (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/february_2004/gazelle_027264.cfm)

[Pittsextra]

Good to see that even in 2003 the bun fight didn't take too long to develop...

[nigelh]

Yes it is the same one . Maybe he was just distracted looking for wires .....

[Efirmovich]

Would have loved to see " The crew " helping to push it back into the hanger ! :ok:

E.

[Peter-RB]

But ....What a Grand and charming old Lady, who had some humour, seldom found in such ease in our older people....

Can any of you imagine TC at that age ! :D ;)

Peter R-B

Lancashire

[nskaye]

I have 2000+ hours in R44's and am considering a Gazelle. I own a 2011 R44II with 130 hours. I used to fly 200 hours/year but now do more like 50-75. I'll hit the 12-year calendar before I get anywhere near the 2200 hours. So, I was considering selling the R44 and buying a Gazelle for around 250,000 and figure the extra money from the sale would cover maintenance and diesel fuel for about as long as I'll be healthy enough to fly...

Any thoughts, advice, caution, alternatives would be welcome. The 341 seems like a tough bird with obviously great speed. It's usually just my wife and I but occasionally another couple joins us. No commercial use and I know it's "experimental."

Neil Kaye

[email protected]

[Hughes500]

nskaye

need to have a company that knows how to maintain it and get the spares otherwise a cracking machine. A cross between a 500 and a 206 really, the room of a 206 with the speed of a 500. Bit heavy on fuel at 40 gals an hour, cruise ( IPS) at 120 to 125 kts. If you have a good one might get 130 cruise

[Squat switch]

As has already been said, they are good but make sure you get a good and comprehensive conversion.

Make sure the outfit that is going to service it is experienced with the Gazelle.

It is relatively robust but fly her with respect, she has a few vices and when she bites she bites hard.

Good luck

[claudia]

Neil, caution regarding the engine, like all Turbomeca engines the Astazou has a 15 year calendar life. Overhauling it alone will probably cost more than two yes two complete R44 12 year overhauls. Also there are a lot of 10 and 12 year items on the aircraft, so be sure to get good professional advice from someone you trust. Best of luck.

[nskaye]

Thanks for the advice. Keep it coming. It's a steep learning curve in order to make this decision.

Neil

[nskaye]

I called EurocopterUSA and was told (and they sent me an e-mail saying) they won't sell parts to anyone to be used in an ex-military Gazelle. That sounds nuts, but I thought I should tell you all and get your response...So where do spare parts come from?

[md 600 driver]

i take it your refering to the ex french 341f2 that have just arrived in the states
they are virtually the same as our uk ex military gazelles execpt they have astazou 111c2 engines not the uk spec astazou 111n2

parts are available for all gazelles civil and military from eurocopter , most eurocopter parts are the same for all gazelles civil or military only the engines and special flight instruments ,weaponry are different

they maybe very expensive though from eurocopter , there are owners of gazelles out there who also have large stocks of parts for their own gazelles and will swop ,sell various parts they dont need with other like minded owners

There is no gazelle part that cant be found some where in the world i own a few gazelles and i dont get any problems

[Heli-Union]

Here is list of some Gazelle parts from one company in US.

http://www.aeroxs.com/resources/Gazelle_Parts.pdf

[nskaye]

Thanks. I am always amazed and ever grateful for Internet friends who help me out. I'm definitely learning about Gazelles and look forward to flying one to see if it is really right for me. Seems easier to do in the UK than in the USA where the Gazelle community is smaller...

[jchap]

Where is a good place to get Gazelle training. Both flight and maintenance.
Presently flying a Gazelle and Alouette.

[krypton_john]

Not so helpful for you, but in the UK, Training/Conversions - MWHelicopters Ltd (http://www.mwhelicopters.co.uk/page/trainingconversions)

[Hughes500]

MW know there gazelles vey well H the chief engineer a cracking bloke. However not sure about the States. Could pay a good instructor to come over and fly with you or come over here I know a few very very good guys

[Rogue Trooper 1010]

Hi all,


Firstly I am a simmer, I fly chopper sims and to my astonishment the gazelle has been released in a home simulator called DCS. It is still in beta at the moment and very much so a work in progress and I am an end user but I can think of nowhere better to come for the right answers.


If the moderators will allow, I would like to ask some detailed questions about the gazelles flight characteristics for both SAS and non-SAS versions.... very detailed.


Moderators may I?

[Thomas coupling]

Get on with it man. No ceremony here.

[[email protected]]

Cyclic back/collective up....cows get smaller

Cyclic forward/collective down....cows get bigger

What more do you need?:)

[Efirmovich]

A good monitor ?? :E


E.

[Flying Bull]

Well RougeTrooper,

I´ve found some old - very old pages from my course at Culdrose...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f9plh4tuhympxl8/Gazelle%20HT%20MK2.pdf?dl=0
which might be helpful.
The pdf might get deleted when I need the space - so if you find it useful, save it ;-)

To the SAS - as far as I remember, it kicked in at something around 40 knots IAS, which could be felt as a slight jolt, if you weren´t flying properly.
Into the course I really didn´t thought about any more....

Was a really nice bird to fly :-)

[[email protected]]

The SAS yaw channel disengaged at 40 kts during acceleration to forward flight.

It was there to reduce 'twitchiness' in the hover or at low speeds and wasn't needed at higher speeds as the wing-like tail provided adequate damping.

[Flying Bull]

as you write it - I recall.
With balanced flight no deal, being out of trim you felt it - wasn´t it so?

[Hughes500]

whats y sas ?? Oh yes army ones didnt have it, were we the better mil pilots as we obviously didnt need it !!!!!

[GipsyMagpie]

as you write it - I recall.
With balanced flight no deal, being out of trim you felt it - wasn´t it so?

I believe it's technically "string-centred" flight rather than "slip ball-centred" flight required to get through 45 kts without the jump in yaw. The airflow over the static ports on the tail boom needs to be even over both sides. Practically it's flying straight.

But since using the SAS is just cheating I've not experienced it in a while. Lovely aircraft

[Flying Bull]

Sorry Hughes500....

not the better pilots - just the ones, which couldn´t handle it ;-) ;-) ;-)
The army didn´t want to put a higher workload on you guys ;-) ;-) ;-)

[md 600 driver]

Hey 500 Y SAS is a md thing for the 520 or 600

SAS was what the uk mil put on their gazelles a bit like stabilisers on a kids bike
When the army men started flying the gazelles the army didn't have it put in theirs they didn't need it

[gsa]

army didn't have it put in theirs they didn't need it

Maybe initially but from about 83/84 it was retro fitted to most of the ones I came across.

[Flying Bull]

Hey 500 Y SAS is a md thing for the 520 or 600

SAS was what the uk mil put on their gazelles a bit like stabilisers on a kids bike
When the army men started flying the gazelles the army didn't have it put in theirs they didn't need it
Don't mess with the senior service!!
Army didn't get it cause they break all their stuff 😜
Sophisticated equipment needs tender careing pilots! 😉

[[email protected]]

The Army Gazelle fleet included the aircraft for the Royal Marines (3 Brigade Air Squadron as was).

The RM Gazelles had SAS fitted presumably for reduced workload on over water ops.

The RAF and RN training Gazelles all had SAS fitted but the Army probably paid extra to have theirs removed.

Given the roles that some of the AAC ones had (lots of very high hovering) SAS would have been a really good idea.

Flown both and would opt for SAS every time but probably without the yaw channel selected in.

There is a school of thought that the yaw SAS can hide the real pedal position required because it moves the actuator while the pedals remain where they are - then, when the actuator runs out of authority, the aircraft starts to yaw but with the pedal position already lagging behind where it needed to be.

The result was that a large right pedal input was required to stop the yaw which many pilots were reluctant to apply so the rate of yaw increased. Some believed they had experienced a TR drive failure when all they needed was full right pedal.

Thus the myth of Fenestron Stall was born.

[76fan]

Reading PPRune talk about fenestron stall I have often wondered why none of us on the Gazelle IFTU encountered it, and I have no memory of any SAS in any of the aircraft (all Army except one RN I think). I guess that last sentence by Crab explains it now.

[Flying Bull]

Hi,
Well, there are still pilots around, which don' t understand how thrust on a fenestron differs to thrust on an conventional tail rotor.
Airbus helicopers has graphs and a handout stating, that right pedal use may need longer travel - up to full right pedal- to stop yaw.
The earlier applied- the better!!!
If you understand that and fly accordingly, you won't get caught by surprise!

[[email protected]]

FB - yes, the Airbus safety notice highlights also how the thrust from a fenstron doesn't change in a linear fashion with pedal position, it is more of an S shaped line on the graph. I think it has to do with the airflow around the duct which can provide additional anti-torque lift in some conditions.

I think this is why that kick in yaw you described earlier occurs when the SAS channel drops out at 40 kts - combined with the actuator effect I mentioned.

[MightyGem]

Reading PPRuNe talk about fenestron stall I have often wondered why none of us on the Gazelle IFTU encountered it,
Probably because you never mis-controlled, like what I did. :eek::eek:

[BOBAKAT]

Never perform autorotation with GZL ? Best time to understand the fenestron effect :) Specially when crosswind ;)

NB : In the French Army all 341 have a SAS, same kind on the AL 3
All of the 342 have a 2 axis autopilot.

[[email protected]]

Not so much the fenestron effect, just the effect of that big tail fin with a crosswind on autos.

Not unusual to run out of left pedal on an EOL - as the Nr decays, the thrust from the fenstron drops off very quickly.

[BOBAKAT]

When the Rotor RPM fall down, the Fenestron RPM fall down at the same ratio, but the poweron pedal fall down faster....it's fenestron effect

[Hot and Hi]

I´ve found some old - very old pages from my course at Culdrose...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f9plh4tuhympxl8/Gazelle%20HT%20MK2.pdf?dl=0
which might be helpful.
The pdf might get deleted when I need the space - so if you find it useful, save it ;-)

Was a really nice bird to fly :-)Thanks for sharing!

[ericferret]

The section of the notes on jack stall was very interesting. The reference to large cyclic inputs during the recovery might explain how an army Gazelle got into an irrecoverable dive that ended up with three dead and two injured. For years I've wondered why the pilot would make large cyclic movements and maybe this is a clue.

[212man]

When the Rotor RPM fall down, the Fenestron RPM fall down at the same ratio, but the poweron pedal fall down faster....it's fenestron effect

Not unique to fenestrons - the point is that although the TR rpm decays linearly with the Nr decay, the actual thrust decay is following a 'square law'.

[[email protected]]

Eric - the notes rather over-egg the jackstall recovery - you have to pull quite hard to get it into jackstall and then only a slight relaxation of that pull is required to let it recover.

You have to keep pulling hard to keep it in jackstall which is a very un-natural thing to do.

The danger is getting it in a right hand turn, especially at low level as it rolls you further right as it enters jackstall.

We used to demonstrate entry and recovery either in a left hand turn at IPS or in a dive to VL at MPS.

212 - agreed, but that funny (peculiar not ha ha) loss of 'lip-lift' can give you a slightly more binary effect as Nr decays.

[Two's in]

One of the joys of being the Theatre Ground Runner (or MTP if you like) was having to test the Jack stall entry and recovery characteristics on every Gazelle MR Handling Check. Suffice to say, having got several dozen under my belt, it rarely surprised me but I also discovered many line pilots were often surprised and unaware of the correct technique. Just like Fenestron Stall in fact, which is simply a French phrase meaning "Lead-Footed".

[[email protected]]

Fenestron Stall in fact, which is simply a French phrase meaning "Lead-Footed".:ok: Excellent, I'll pass that one on to my Gazelle chums.

[BOBAKAT]

Not only GZL, lot of accident occurs with the EC 130 for same raison : lack of instruction about the fenestron and big tail effect crosswind. specially in final approach.

[serf]

Seem to remember in the 'notes' - avoid winds from the right/turning left at low speed?
Current Bell I operate-avoid low speed turns right/wind from the left.....possible LTE.

[Sam Rutherford]

Bringing this back to the original (17 year old!) thread.

Considering buying a 100% civil machine on the N register - but price is $450K. Nearly all components have 1000hrs or more remaining and it's in great condition.

So...?

[hueyracer]

Too expensive from my experience....


Some of the old military ones go for 100-150k....

[Sam Rutherford]

Understood, but there is a very big difference in usability and value between the ex-mil machines and the 100% civil versions.

[hueyracer]

I must admit-never flew either of them.....


Whats the difference?
Just asking out of curiosity....

[Sam Rutherford]

Main one is legal use - fully legal, even IFR (dependent fit) for the civil version. Permit to fly only for the ex-mil versions.

The 'secondary' is that the civilian ones tend to have had an easier life, much fewer hours etc.

[md 600 driver]

Sam huey

I think you will find that the civil gazelle and the military gazelle are similar prices. And Huey the prices you mentioned are possiblby 20 years old you proberbly would double that in the uk
That's if you could find a flying ex mil gazelle for sale in the uk I know companies with waiting lists for gazelles as they are very sort after steve

[md 600 driver]

Bringing this back to the original (17 year old!) thread.

Considering buying a 100% civil machine on the N register - but price is $450K. Nearly all components have 1000hrs or more remaining and it's in great condition.

So...?
Go for it fantastic helicopter and very contrary to what the gazelle detractors say if you need to know about gazelles ask a gazelle owner for feed back on prices and serviceability. Not a dreamer

[Sam Rutherford]

I have almost 1500h on gazelle, so that's why I'm interested. Just trying to make the price tag fit an almost 50 year old machine...

[oldbeefer]

CRAB - my instructor on QHI course decided to do the demo in a 60 deg RIGHT hand turn - saw Newport past over my head as we flipped all the way under. Asked for an instructor change!

[CRAN]

Guys,

Does anybody have any experience of the UK Gazelle AH1, with the upward pointing exhaust, as shown below?

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/560x425/gazelle_chf_6c52cf629e517ef230b438d4bc7f607b4b6ed31a.jpg
Were there any drains in place to prevent the engine from filling with water in the case of shutting down in the rain?

Many thanks,
CRAN

[Sam Rutherford]

No, we kept goldfish in ours - they loved the warm water...

I'll get my coat!

[Sam Rutherford]

Ah, just seen it's a bootneck machine - don't know what they kept in theirs - presumably saltwater though.

Okay, really must do something else now!

[Attila]

The Army Gazelle fleet included the aircraft for the Royal Marines (3 Brigade Air Squadron as was).

The RM Gazelles had SAS fitted presumably for reduced workload on over water ops.

.

Crab, I was on Gazelle Conversion Course No 7, in 1974, as a Royal Marine, and during the 3 years that I flew the Gazelle we never had SAS fitted. We also did a deployment to the USA on HMS Hermes, (or was it Bulwark?) the following year, 1975, and night deck landings mid-Atlantic were very interesting in a machine without stabilisation - you almost didn't dare blink until you were on finals!

Sounds like it was a good bit of kit for a single engined helicopter.

[[email protected]]

Attila - I gues they must have been upgraded sometime in the 80s then. Yes, unstabilised aircraft in the dark over water - no thanks!

[ShyTorque]

Attila - I gues they must have been upgraded sometime in the 80s then. Yes, unstabilised aircraft in the dark over water - no thanks!

Crab, you were a bit too young to fly the Whirlwind (which of course, as you well know, was a mainstay of RAF SAR).
Certain "Floppy stick" AS355s, which had the SAS removed to get the weight down so they could fit the necessary police equipment, were a bit of a handful over the dark hills, too. :}

[diginagain]

Guys,

Does anybody have any experience of the UK Gazelle AH1, with the upward pointing exhaust, as shown below?

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/560x425/gazelle_chf_6c52cf629e517ef230b438d4bc7f607b4b6ed31a.jpg
Were there any drains in place to prevent the engine from filling with water in the case of shutting down in the rain?

Many thanks,
CRAN
ISTR that the upturned exhaust was connected to the oil cooler extraction duct which drained into the oil cooler bay, which had drains. Or it filled the LWNA doppler box. Just as it did with the standard offset exhaust.

[SASless]

Attila - I gues they must have been upgraded sometime in the 80s then. Yes, unstabilised aircraft in the dark over water - no thanks!


Dear Boy....where is your sense of adventure?

Remember in the Good Old Days....SAS had not found its way back into helicopters!

[[email protected]]

In my time at Wallop I flew the AAC AH1 Gazelles quite a lot - SPIFR, NVG, NOE, all without the aid of SAS (not fitted to AAC) but it doesn't mean it is a good thing - give me a proper 4-axis AP any day:ok:

Diginanain - oh no, you reminded me of the joys of the LWNA - double slew up anyone?

[Si Clik]

Hi Sam
I helped my Aussie boss buy an ex RN Gazelle in 2016 for £220k. From my perspective (I'm still flying them) a good one should be no more than £250k. Engines are key though for PtF.
Simon

[carlmeek]

I own G-BZYD, ex army gazelle with up pointing exhaust (and SAS!). Water just drains straight through. All the rearward pointing ones cover the jetpipe when parked ourdoors but the upward pointing one doesn’t. No need, and no known problems.

And SAS is brilliant, I love it and find it a brilliant workload helper. Best tip is to keep it turned off during all take off and landings or it just acts as a nuisance.

[diginagain]

In my time at Wallop I flew the AAC AH1 Gazelles quite a lot - SPIFR, NVG, NOE, all without the aid of SAS (not fitted to AAC) but it doesn't mean it is a good thing - give me a proper 4-axis AP any day:ok:

Diginanain - oh no, you reminded me of the joys of the LWNA - double slew up anyone?
We got LWNA, GOA, hand-held moving map display the size of a large laptop that used hand-cut map sections manually loaded and indexed, and a hand-held BATCO decoder that needed both hands, all about the same time. Then AR5 came along.

[206Fan]

Gazelle helicopter (SA341HT2) test flight (youtube.com)

[MCR01]

Such a shame the video audio effectively ends at 6 minutes; it would have been so good to hear the exchanges between the pilot during the flight. A fascinating video even for a simple fixed wing pilot who has only once been in a helicopter. Any chance of the video being edited to provide audio?