View Full Version : Gazelle: Flying, operating, buying


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Rob_L
3rd Apr 2003, 01:41
I re-read the AAIB bulletin (feb 2003) and as the pilot had sufficient control to attempt a run on it would appear that any jam was again forward of full aft. How the stick could contact the buckle on a five point harness though beats me.

Again I would emphasise that the two incidents are different in that I believe that SAS equiped aircraft do not have the friction discs at the base of the stick. Maybe somebody could confirm that.



KENNYR
3rd Apr 2003, 10:31
Rob_L......Do you know whether dual flight controls were fitted?
If they were, was the front passenger five point harness stowed correctly? I seem to remember something about ensuring the empty seat harness was done up prior to takeoff. If the buckle was left lose and hanging down the front of the seat when dual controls were fitted the rearward cyclic movement could be restricted.

Tallguy
3rd Apr 2003, 14:53
Kenny

Quite right, the harness was not stowed correctly and duals were fitted. If the quick release buckle falls forward off the co-pilots seat while the duals are fitted it can restrict the rear movement of the cyclic, the buckle has to fall forward off the seat and come to rest in a precise position to jam the movement but sods law this will happen.

Rob_L
3rd Apr 2003, 18:19
The AAIB report says that the contact was with the pilots harness, no mention of duals.

I'm getting my information straight off the AAIB report.
Where is your info comming from Tallguy?

In case anyone is interested on an aircraft with the friction discs at the base of the cyclic you can check for the potential for a control jam by carrying out the following.

Reduce the friction so the discs slide easily.
Have someone hold the stick forward of centre.
Slide the lowest disc as far aft as possible without contacting the floor.
Slide the disc above it as far aft as possible.
Check for a gap between the outer edge of the inner disc and the inner edge of the lower disc.

If there is a gap the potential is there. If the hole in the lowest disc is completely covered, no problem.

simon_says
3rd Apr 2003, 19:56
Having just had my daily slagging from my friend the helicopter technician, they dont like being refered to as engineers here!!:} I would like to add that the Astazou has been totally reliable for 3000 of my flying hours to date. I have flown the Gazelle in various parts of the world in different climates and the engine performed every time. It does have a clutch (dry centrifugal) and a single dual action drive shaft (internal/external) and apart from being French is a sound design.

LOOSE NUT
4th Apr 2003, 04:22
Rob_L

I can confirm that Tallguy is correct in that unfastened seat buckles (either side) can and do restrict aft cyclic movement if not fastened, it can quite easily be demonstrated before start up and is such an easy mistake to make with horrible consiquences.

Regards
L N

Rob_L
4th Apr 2003, 05:52
The AAIB report says that contact with the pilots buckle was the suspect cause. I agree that if the harness was open this would cause this type of control restriction.

However I dont know any helicopter pilots who fly unstrapped. More so if they are making an emergency approach for a run on landing.

However if unstrapped with a restriction it might not be possible (mentally) to sort out the problem. I'm still curious as to why the report didnt mention it.

To be honest the accident to ZW wasn' t my interest in starting this thread. I was more interested in the possibility of civil Gazelles flying around with the potential cyclic friction problem.
Still that is the joy of the internet, it does sometimes seem to turn into send three and fourpence were going to a dance.
Sometimes frustrating sometimes fun.

Vfrpilotpb
4th Apr 2003, 16:34
Very interesting thread, we have in our local area two Gazelles, one with the owner pilot who flys it very carefully indeed, but the other local one, the pilot of this, for a party piece to show the unexperienced pax, puts this Gazelle into a near vertical dive and then pulls out at the bottom under full power to land as he says " in style", I have always thought he is pushing it a little but now I am certain he may yet "buy the plot!" sadly though he may have some one sat alongside when that happens:rolleyes:

jellycopter
6th Apr 2003, 01:51
Another possible cause of cyclic control restriction in 'civvy' gazelles is the front carpets. The one I fly has the cyclic stuck through a neatly hemmed (with leather piping) circular hole in the carpet. I have known the carpet to shift slightly when climbing in and get partially wedged between the upper and lower cyclic 'discs'. When you do the 'full and free' checks prior to rotor start however, you quickly notice if anythings amiss. I'm very particular about this check on this individual machine to ensure the carpet is correctly seated. J

Pub User
6th Apr 2003, 03:13
Rob

The SAS-fitted Gazelles have the same friction discs on the cyclic as those without SAS. The only difference is that they have been checked 'fully loose' on every startup since they were brought into service, and so are ususally very solidly 'off'!

I have not flown a Gazelle for a long time, but I do seem to recall the occasional interaction between stick and belt-buckle (fastened) during 'full and free' checks. However, the cyclic would not normally need to be brought back to the stops (or the buckle) to pull out of a dive.

SiClick
8th Apr 2003, 03:28
I've been asked to find a picture of a SeaKing lifting a Gazelle, I've seen one at Shawbury, but does anyone have an electronic copy they can e-mail me
Thanks

John Eacott
8th Apr 2003, 07:55
Does it have to be a Gazelle? I've got a few of Bailey Bridge sections, Land Rover & trailer, RR Spey in its cradle, or these:

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/gallery/seaking/824_Land_Rover_lift_from_Lossiemouth_02.jpg

http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/gallery/seaking/826_Sea_King_142_with_chacon_underslung_air_Cornwall.jpg

kissmysquirrel
8th Apr 2003, 15:41
and the caption is.."Hey guys, aren't I supposed to be flying?"

Rob_L
8th Apr 2003, 15:53
Thanks for that Pubuser. It answers my question on the SAS.

Really from a civil helicopter point of view the potential for the restriction I describe should really have been the subject of an AD.

Bertie Thruster
8th Apr 2003, 20:14
Somewhere in my attic is a pic of a RAF SAR Seaking lifting a Lynx. I will try and find it for you.

Tandemrotor
9th Apr 2003, 06:09
I have a piccy of the 'last time I flew a Lightning!'

It was under a wokka, and I wasn't seated in the plank!

coorong
11th Apr 2003, 04:20
Having just accessed prune after a few weeks, I noted this control restriction thread on the Gaz.
I had a problem with a cyclic restriction many years ago in Norway. In a dualled a/c , I dropped off another pilot in the snow and asked him to ensure the harness was all connected up.
Then transitted for ten mins. to another site surrounded by trees and requiring a long vertical drop-down. On descending I could not move cyclic aft and was rapidly closing towards some large fir trees!
Thinking a big prang was imminent, I happened to glance left and saw that the empty-seat harness had disengaged itself and the five-piece box prevented rearwards movement of the cyclic. I lunged across and after several attempts knocked it clear. I then executed a rapid backwards climb and went round for another rather more sedate approach. The Marines on the ground were cheering... they obviously thought I was just showing off!
My lesson after that was always to check for myself. But reading previous threads I wonder if this may have occurred in other incidents.

oldpinger
11th Apr 2003, 07:18
Si,

I've got a book at home with numerous seaking lifting gazelles piccies (RM/RAF and RN!)

If I can find a scanner I'll email them to you or try to post them on this forum:confused:

Cheers

also got a phot of a Seaking lifting a leopard tank......

SiClick
11th Apr 2003, 11:52
Thanks for the help, it has to be a Gazelle the SeaKing is lifting as its for a wind up of a Gazelle Sqn by a Seaking Sqn.

Bradders
12th Apr 2003, 02:51
I have a picture of a Gazelle lifting a Sea King in Norway 1995.
Drop me an e-mail and I can send it to you.

Heliport
12th Apr 2003, 05:55
Hope one of you will be able to scan the photograph and post it on the forum. I'm sure we'd all like to see it - I would anyway. :D

Heliport

Bradders
12th Apr 2003, 07:20
Fagernes, Norway Jan 1995


http://www.btinternet.com/~chrisbradshaw/index_files/image002.jpg

STANDTO
18th Apr 2003, 17:16
Ex RM M8 of mine at work has a pic on his wall of a rotorless gaz being lifted by a Seaking.

If you still want another pic let me know and I'll see if I can blag a copy next time I am at HQ

Thud_and_Blunder
19th Apr 2003, 21:35
So, how does the Gazelle pilot manage to balance that ugly great thing on top of such a long, thin pole, then?...

Or is it the Gazelle AT5 with Mast-Mounted Bootie Shifter?

(I'd bung in a few shots of Chinooks lifting everything from Sea Kings down, but some Mi26 operator would come along and make them look pretty tame)

;)

Bradders
20th Apr 2003, 03:56
The hardest bit was getting the Sea King crew to stop laughing before they went to pic the thing up!

ppheli
25th Nov 2003, 12:48
Apart from the Murray Grierson accident mentioned in another thread, I understand there was another accident in Northern England last Wednesday. Location or identity of helicopter not known - I do have a name but don't think it's appropriate here.

Reported that the guy was on first flight to home on his own having done 15+ hours after getting ticket. Pilot's 5 point harness buckle got caught in cyclic gator in floor & restricted movement of cyclic in the rearward direction. (Apparently a known issue with Gazelles & is in the flight manual - referring only to passenger buckle only as one assumes that the pilot might be wearing his harness in flight!?). Uncontrolled forward speed on landing required the aircraft to be stopped by a means that isn't in the flight manual - namely a barn where the intact heli was supposed to have been hangared - ooops!!

MD600 Driver - heard anything of this? Hopefully not your Gazelle?

md 600 driver
25th Nov 2003, 13:50
pp heli
no not mine i am expecting another gaz to be based nearby any time now will check if its him
its going to cause problems with insurance for people with ex mil gazelles

send me a pm with any details

steve

Thomas coupling
25th Nov 2003, 23:24
Spoke to an associate of mine who owns a Gaz piece. He tells me he crashed his last week because the QRB slipped down around the base of the cyclic causing him to run out of aft cyclic just when you need it (downwind in the hover) and he had to run it on. Unfortunately his tail struck the ground and ripped the frange off, the a/c then lurched fwd onto the ground and damaged the skids, too.
Sounds too much like ppheli's incident. Perhaps there were two incidents?

jellycopter
26th Nov 2003, 00:10
I don't recall seeing anything posted on PPrune but apparently an ex-mil Gazelle hit wires near Stanstead a few weeks ago (about 6?) with one pilot on board? Apparently the pilot parked almost under the cables then completely forgot about them when he did his take-off.

Rumour has it that the impact severed the hydraulics to the T/R servo and after several gyrations the pilot got it down under control and kept it upright. Understand the aircraft went to MW Helis at Stapleford for repairs.

As MD600 implies, the insurance for ex-mil Gazelles looks set to go through the roof.

J

md 600 driver
26th Nov 2003, 00:31
jelly copter
that was a civvy gazelle at stanstead know the pilot and the heli well 1 pilot all ok all the other info is correct but more than 6 weeks

tc
if you mean lifter yes it was him if you get my drift

any way all of them ok lots of self embarresments but in the end works out well

steve

RDRickster
26th Nov 2003, 02:19
http://ww1.theherald.co.uk/news/5127.html

Thomas coupling
26th Nov 2003, 02:43
MD600: yes it was 'lifter', but as you can appreciate he'd rather stay hiding incognito for the time being due to the situation:{

RD Rickster: we're straddling two threads now between this one and the scottish heli crash thread with this link.

Might be worth a reference in the other thread?

MightyGem
26th Nov 2003, 03:43
So why wasn't his QRB still fastened around his waist? :confused:

Squadgy
22nd Feb 2004, 00:22
Hi,

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but I heard the other day that the CAA restrict Gazelles to opearting with just 1 POB, and that this is the reason so many are registered abroad but operating in the UK.
If this is the case do the CAA grant exemptions for this for conversion training etc.

Thanks

Squadgy

md 600 driver
22nd Feb 2004, 00:58
i think somebody was telling you porkies


i own a ex mil gazelle and can confirm that they are not limited to one pob [ there are limitations to crew however ]

also civilian gazelles are legal with 5 pob

there are a few n reg in the uk and a few yugo reg 1 hungarian reg 1 check reg and some french i think i would be right in saying there is more g reg gazelles that all of the rest put together

steve

Flying Lawyer
22nd Feb 2004, 01:15
Different rules apply to Gazelles manufactured for the civilian market which have a full C of A and ex-Mil machines which operate on Permits to Fly.

The airframes were identical, and came off the same production lines, but there were three (relatively minor) variants of the same Astazou engine. However, only two were type certificated at the time - the Mil version didn't need to be and wasn't. In consequence, ex-Mil Gazelles can't/won't be granted a C of A.

The Permits have a number of restrictions (some of which are IMHO absurd) but, as far as I know, the maximum POB under a Permit is still 4 - compared with 5 for C of A aircraft.
It's possible the maximum for Permit aircraft has been reduced to one - seems very unlikely, but anything's possible.

I fly Gazelles with a C of A so don't monitor restrictions attached to the Permits but, if no-one else gives the answer, I'll find out and post again. Sorry not to give you a definitive answer now, but I'm in a rush and haven't got time to look it up.

Tudor Owen



Just seen the above - posted while I was writing.
There's your answer. :D

Also, re Reg:
Some owners prefer to keep their Gazelles on the French register if they were on it when bought. They say they find life much easier with an F-reg. I haven't got any personal experience so can't comment. I don't know anyone who's changed from G to F, but that doesn't mean no-one has.)

206 jock
22nd Feb 2004, 23:55
I looked into the ex-mil Gazelles a while ago: i believe that they are still restricted to 'crew only'. This can comprise a pilot, an (unqualified) 'navigator' and up to two ground handlers.

However, there's no specification as to what a 'ground handler' can or can't be, but if you crash and have kids on board, I bet you'd find out!.

As for civilian registrations in other countires, I remember reading somewhere that SA342J variants (with the more powerful engine) can't be registerd on the G-reg: so most of those remain on the French register.

ewe.lander
1st May 2004, 19:06
Friend of mine, ex-British military, wishes to get a PPL(H) opening the license on a Gazelle.

Any top tips for a reasonable cost? He is keen to go to 'Fast' at Thruxton - a good outfit with an excellent reputation, but funds are a bit tight, is there somewhere cheaper?

I'm a fixed-wing bod so cannot offer much advice - thanks!

Heliport
1st May 2004, 19:21
The man to speak to about anything to do with Gazelle training is Al Gwilt - ex Army Air Corps display pilot etc, current TA Gazelle pilot.

I highly recommend Al Gwilt based on personal experience (flown with him many times over the years), the opinions of 4-5 Gazelle pilots I know who did their training with him, comments in Rotorheads, and his reputation in the industry.

E-mail: Al Gwilt (agheli@<hidden>)
Mobile 0776 7614419

Using a Gazelle for training isn't going to be cheap - probably twice the cost of an R22 - but, if your friend's got the funds, he couldn't make a better choice IMHO. :ok:


Heliport

Bravo 99 (AJB)
1st May 2004, 20:13
I think Norman Colins doe,s Gazelle as well he and Al used to fly a lot together his mobile is 077782188741

Regards
Bravo 99 (AJB)

ewe.lander
2nd May 2004, 18:53
Thanks for that, my luddite mate will be ringing them asap!!

Flying Lawyer
3rd May 2004, 23:56
Luddite!!??!! :eek: The Gazelle is a wonderful helicopter.

Al Gwilt should be your friend's starting-point. I did my type conversion with him and was very impressed - superb pilot and instructor.

You don't say where your friend lives but, if Al can't help, I'm sure he'll be able to make a recommendation.
Opinions differ about whether civvy or ex-military instructors are better but, for Gazelle training, I think ex-mil is definitely the way to go.


http://www.mwhelicopters.co.uk/MWHelicopters%20Left.gif

The Nr Fairy
4th May 2004, 05:31
I seem to remember Andrew Harvey does Gazelles, down in deepest Devon, if that's closer. Try http://www.ahhelicopters.co.uk/entry_page.htm

And I'm not sure FAST has a Gazelle bod on the books any more, with Ian and Mike both gone.

And I've just noticed the comment "but funds are a bit tight, is there somewhere cheaper" - better to spend a bit more on kwality training than stuff it in not long after the type rating's finished.

Hilico
13th May 2004, 18:04
This link (http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_avsafety/documents/page/dft_avsafety_028729.hcsp) to the AAIB bulletins has the details.

helibiz
25th Jul 2004, 23:59
I am seeking advice and comment on a Gazelle341 G I am looking at that requires a replacement engine Astazou111a Cost and availabilityof engine. Ship has been stored in coastal enviroment since engine u/s in 1990. MRGB borescope ok. Heads up on any traps with Gazelle airframe? 73 model 2200 hrs Thanks in advance Helibiz

Pete O'Tewbe
26th Jul 2004, 07:13
The Gazelle is becoming increasingly difficult to support these days fundementally due to the difficulty in getting hold of spare parts and major assemblies. If you can get hold of these items, they will be extremely expensive. A zero-time Astazou IIIA could set you back £150k if you can find one at all.

You need to check on the time available on the head, MRGB, TRGB and IGB. Pay particular attention to the recently introduced calendar life on these items. Whilst you may have plenty of hours remaining, it is possible that they are now time expired. Also, check that the tie bars have been recently changed (unlikely if the machine you are considering has been u/s cince 1990). Additionally, depending upon which hydraulic pack you have fitted, it is entirely possible that the bladder within the reservoir has perished.

An obvious point, perhaps, but as you are in a coastal area, a thorough inspection of the frame for corrosion is a must. You are also checking for the corrosive effects of any bird dropppings that may now adorn this machine.

This list is not exhaustive which brings me to my final offering. Before parting with any cash, get a thorough survey and inspection carried out by someone who really knows the Gazelle. A few hundred dollars spent here could save you thousands later in terms of money, angst and embarrassment.

md 600 driver
29th Oct 2004, 15:42
any one have a copy of the poh that shows how to use the blade folding kit and the list of parts for it
steve

John Eacott
11th Nov 2004, 21:38
Steve,

I've got a copy of Gazelle Maintenance Manual, Chapter 10, Parking & Blade Folding sitting on my desk for you! Send me an e mail or fax number, and I'll send it on to you.

yakyakyakyak
26th Jan 2005, 13:43
very close to buying a permit gazelle as a personal means of transport and a fun machine. happy with the component times remaining and all the known costs ie initial capital,insurance,p &l,fuel,30 day,50hr,annual and bi annual and permit restrictions.
however, still a little hesitant in respect of the unsheduled maint costs ! i am reliably informed this is a good example and the expensive items should go to time ! and therefore there shouldnt be too many costly shocks.. Are there any private owners out there with sufficient positive ownership experiences to convince me i am doing the right thing or "am i mad"

thanks in anticipation .
y y y :confused:

CyclicRick
26th Jan 2005, 14:18
"am I mad?"
If you get an R44 rather than a Gazelle...YES!
Wish I had your cash though! :{

helicopter-redeye
26th Jan 2005, 14:20
Its worth reading the accident reports too .....

Which machine?


;)

CRAZYBROADSWORD
26th Jan 2005, 14:34
An R44 would be more expesive to buy new but would cost less to run than a gazzelle but have flown both the Gazzelle is light years ahead of an R44 but I would look closely at the permit restrictions and maybe look at a non military one.

nigelh
26th Jan 2005, 14:35
You cannot compare an R44 with a gazelle, like comparing a reliant robin with an Aston ! As for expense i bought a squirrel and it has cost nearly £200,000 in 18 months in unscheduled .......think hard !!

Vfrpilotpb
26th Jan 2005, 14:36
Buy the Gazzer, and wave at the R44 as you pass him/her. two guys up here both use 342's as private carraige , both cover huge miles in the weeks and sofar as I know they really havn't had any nasty surprises, all scheduled work done at MW, who are reputed to be quite able to obtain all spares needed.

It will be more exciting than the R44 but deffo not as cheap to service!

If you want a number PM me and Ill pass it onto you>

Vfr:ok:

breakscrew
26th Jan 2005, 15:28
A Gazelle is simply one of the nicest helicopters to fly. Buy one and enjoy! :)

Three Blades
26th Jan 2005, 15:31
Be carefull about the Permit restrictions.
I investigated the same purchase last year and heard a number of stories including that of one ex-mil machine being impounded by the CAA at Shoreham as the owner had turned up with his wife and kids. Aparently they do not count as 'crew'.

206 jock
26th Jan 2005, 16:28
I looked at the HT2/R44/B206 and decided that for what you lose on the permit (ie, no real passengers and certainly no kids), they are a lot of money, at around £160k. At around £100k, they would look much more attractive. Do ex-military Gazelles really deserve a 100% premium over a Westland Scout, just on the basis that it's faster and prettier?

I plumped for an older JetRanger: at least I can lease that back when it's sitting there doing nothing.

But never believe anybody who tells you that they are cheap to maintain and you can predict all the costs. I have my heart in my mouth every time mine goes in the shop, even if it's just for a 50 hour inspection. In my experience, every item that is getting down to its last quarter of component life, you should budget to have replaced soon. So it might have another 1250 hours left on the cards, but as soon as it's inspected....'I'm afraid it's worn out of limits on the rotor mast' or 'the coating has worn on that swashplate support' or 'the corrosion on the grips is just too much for me to work out'!

2Sticks
27th Jan 2005, 17:00
I heard a rumour that there was a source of cheap Gazelles that could be kept on an Eastern European register and flown in the UK. Anyone know anything about this?
2Sticks

yakyakyakyak
18th Mar 2005, 14:58
took the plunge, bought the gazelle!!!! 15 hours later, i know i did the right thing! great ship, different league to anything else at similar money! glad the positive encouragement outweighed
the doom and gloom lot !
cheers
yakyakyakyak

md 600 driver
19th Mar 2005, 19:05
yakyakyakyak
do i know you?

when you bought it did someone come in a 600 and a gazelle

steve

Kakpipe Cosmonaut
28th Mar 2005, 21:44
Gazelle Stock Disposal Tender...

Offer Price Equiries Only

The Disposal Services Agency (DSA) of the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) is intending to dispose of up to 30 Gazelle Helicopters during the period of April 2005 to April 2006. Initial Expressions of Interest (EoI) are invited, from industry, to enter in to a Marketing Agreement for the Sales and Marketing of ex UK MoD Gazelle Helicopters.
It is envisaged that the selected Contractor will undertake refurbishment work prior to sale of the Aircraft to enhance their value and saleability. The ability of Potential Contractors in this field will be explored further at the Pre Qualification Questionnaire and Invitation to Tender stages.
The DSA will expect the Contractor to return an agreed percentage of sales realised to the UK MoD, with the retained percentage meeting the Contractors running costs and profit. However the DSA is prepared to consider other options or innovative ideas for the above requirement.
Potential Contractor 's are required to demonstrate the ability to collect the Aircraft, within an agreed time scale, and store them securely prior to completing sales.
The DSA is currently utilising E-trade technology to enhance its disposal activities and the selected Contractor will be expected to participate in this area.
It must also be noted that any potential Contractor must be able to obtain and, if successful, hold a Bank Guarantee. Value to be determined.
Reponses are required by 29 April 2005

Offer End Date: 29/4/2005

Thomas coupling
28th Mar 2005, 23:11
These cant be worth more than £35,000 each.

Rebuild costs, each: £50,000.

After refurb: £145,000 on the open market.

profit for contractor: £60,000/aircraft

How much does the MOD want of this? (Say 25%)

That leaves £45,000/aircraft. 20 a/c = £900,000

Tax and costs @<hidden> 60%

that leaves approx £350,000 in the back pocket.

SASless
29th Mar 2005, 12:39
TC,

That presupposes being able to use all of them for sale....and being able to get the needed parts....without cannibalizing some of the airframes.....and being able to sell all 30 in a timely manner.

With the influx of 30 aircraft of the same type onto the market...that is bound to have a negative impact upon the price I should think.

helicopter-redeye
30th Mar 2005, 11:59
They hav'nt quite sold the last of the first tranche yet so that should keep the price down a bit.

Also a few of the first tranche have been destroyed - low hours pilots on big machine at low cost

EddieHeli
30th Mar 2005, 13:18
The first lot went by public auction where they sold for about £45000 to £75000 as seen. It was left up to the purchaser to arrange the refurb.

The second lot were sold in the same manner as this current proposal with JCM disposals handling the sales in co-operation with London Helicopter Centre. LHC did the refurbs and sold them ready to fly for £120k plus.

As noted by helicopter-redeye the last of these has been for sale for over 18 months now with no takers, so methinks there is some risk involved in taking this lot on.

There has also been one on the used market for offers around £160k for some time now with no takers.

AFAIK The permit for these is quite restrictive making them essentially a 2 seater.

Storage and transportation can't be cheap for 30 gazelles and some of them will be desert weary and in need of substantial refurb.

Now if whoever takes them starts knocking them out at £50k a piece in flying condition put me on the list - please.

Three Blades
30th Mar 2005, 13:38
On a scale of 1-10, how complex & expensive would it be to get a CofA and so avoid the permit problem ?

Thomas coupling
30th Mar 2005, 16:39
I've heard it would cost in excess of £100,000

Hughes500
30th Mar 2005, 17:44
Cannot get a Cof A - Gatwick reckeons that the 3N2 engine is a different engine to the 3N1 that powers civi gazelles. Therefore the 3N2 engine has no civil certification, thus you would need a new engine - approx £ 150K let alone the different rotorhead etc etc.

helicopter-redeye
30th Mar 2005, 19:34
On a scale of 1-10, how complex & expensive would it be to get a CofA and so avoid the permit problem

12

That aside, as Captain Scarletts arch enemy The Hood used to mutter in a curiously Germano-Russian accent

"Vot a machine. I must have one at aaaaaaannny corst"

Three Blades
31st Mar 2005, 06:19
Hmmm. Off that idea then - thanks

helicopter-redeye
31st Mar 2005, 15:29
Hmmm. Off that idea then - thanks

Not a bad idea, just a impossible one.

Owner a ex Mil machine is a nice idea with (say) 4 careful pilots who just want to fly it on a private usage permit and are careful about how they fly. (samne with a Scout).

See the Redeye gazellculator to see what it costs to own one, h-r

anti-talk
22nd Mar 2006, 15:50
I have a student who is hell bent on buying a Gazelle and bringing it into the US. He also wants to offer it to me for Commercial work but I am unsure if it certified for the US and whether or not it can be used for commercial ops or just private as in europe. can someone please advise.
Geoff

SASless
22nd Mar 2006, 15:53
Whistling Pigs have been here before. International Air Transport in Anchorage had some...JetFleet in Dallas had one used for IFR ATP training.

Fast, noisy (outside anyway), pretty things. Fun to fly.

anti-talk
22nd Mar 2006, 15:59
I know I haveflown one in europe, great fun to fly and yes noisy as hell!!!!!!
I guess if its ex - mil it will struggle to be cerificated but am unsure, also just looking out for him spare parts access could be a nightmare.

mongoose237
22nd Mar 2006, 16:25
whether or not it can be used for commercial ops or just private as in europe. I believe there are Gazelles operating commercially in Europe. The difference is in the engines; a couple of Astazou engine variants were fitted into airframes destined for the Civilian market and so issued a type certificate. The other military engine variant never did, hence only being on a permit to fly.

I stand to be corrected, though.

md 600 driver
22nd Mar 2006, 18:27
there are a few ex uk mil gazelle already in the us fury helicopters have some which the use for displays
i believe they are all on experimental cats like the uk permit to fly

there are also 341g gazelles civvy and some 342,s which can be used for pt as they are full certificate aircraft they are on the german,american,italian,hungarian,yugoslavian,and the uk registers ,that i know about there are possibly lots more
the uk ex mils use the 3n2 engine which has never been civvy certified

spares can be short but a brilliant aircraft to fly
the flying chicken leg

Buitenzorg
22nd Mar 2006, 19:17
Gazelles can and have been used for commercial work in the US if you can find a civilian model - difficult and expensive but not impossible - but anyone seriously contemplating this nowadays is lying to himself. There is just no way the financial aspect of it can be made to work; JetRangers will eat your lunch.

As a personal aircraft it's a different story altogether - top choice if you can afford it!

rotornut
22nd Mar 2006, 19:23
There used to be an operator at Grand Prairie, Alberta with a Gazelle. I'll see if I can dig up his name.

609FC
13th May 2006, 08:40
Hi all

Just looking for some gen on the gazelle. Not so much hand book stuff but real world experience of the a/c.
Eg is it prone to fenestron stall (if it even exists) and if so under what conditions, how effective is the fenestron at sea level and at alt, what are the general handling characteristics of the type.
Any and all stories relating to working with the gazelle that you may think would be useful to someone who may be driving one soon would be greatly appreciated.
thanks:ok:

Hughes500
13th May 2006, 17:38
Cracking machine, very very few vices, other than getting very expensive to maintain. Which type will you be flying 341 or 342 ?

crab@SAAvn.co.uk
14th May 2006, 06:40
If you buy one with SAS (stability augmentation system) fitted you might find the yaw channel can mask the true required pedal position (this is at low speed or in the hover) - this can lead to a yaw to the left which seems not to respond to an initial input of right pedal and may lead you to believe you have a TR problem (the myth of fenestron stall). Be prepared to apply full right pedal and hold it until the yaw ceases - Aerospatiale demonstrated a recovery from more than 120 degrees per second.

SAS and stick trim do make the aircraft easier to fly and reduce cockpit workload.

When you are cranking along at IPS or MPS (intermediate and maximum pitch settings for the cruise - 13.5 and 14.5 degrees IIRC), lower the lever if you need to turn right quickly to avoid massive torque spikes and the flashing red light on the torquemeter.

Be religious in checking the fuel filler cap for security - the intake for the engine is above the fuel cap and introducing fuel to a jet engine before the combustion chamber is not healthy.

Don't break the perspex bubble - it is expensive and a bugger to refit. Don't expect it to stop birds either, at 120 kts a pigeon makes a hell of a mess of the cockpit (and the pilot).

Recovery from jackstall (and you have to be fairly brutal to induce it) is to lower the lever and reduce the severity of the manoeuvre ie unload the disc by moving the cyclic forward.

If you have dual controls fitted, make sure the LHS harness is properly secured if you are flying solo as the groin strap with the box on can flop forward and restrict aft cyclic movement.

Above all have loads of fun with it as it is a great machine to fly.

609FC
14th May 2006, 09:03
Thank you all for responding, great stuff to know. in response to hughes500's question, I'm not to sure I think the 341 but just out of interest what is the difference between the two. Does the gazelle have a greasing programe. Is the type aerobatically certified. Have been told that you never want the wind on your left in the hover or your heading for trouble, is the authority that bad or is this just a case of "its a hot ship so your going to hurt yourself" syndrome. I only ask because a few people seem to think that the type is somewhat tricky to master. any thoughts appreciated.

Thomas coupling
14th May 2006, 09:49
Excellent tips from Crab...straight out of the users handbook! Good advice.

This "thing" about "fenestron stall". There are several theories about the characteristics of the gazelles turning traits at very low speed [not necessarily in the hover].
The important thing to understand is:

The fenestron does 'mask' the airflow occasionally feeding into the tail rotor. It is NOT catastrophic and this is the thing to remember. What happens is the rate of turn accelerates faster than many pilots are used to and they panic expecting the a/c to rotate out of control.
IF a pilot did nothing, the a/c would initially continue to accelerate [vastly exceeding the manuals 60 degrees per second limit - if my memory serves me right]. and eventually recover.
However what most inexperienced pilots would do is probably back off with the pedal input that initiated the turn which of course would allow the rotation to continue to accelerate. The pilot then gives up and either the helo crashes from a hover (which I've seen once) or spirals slowly earthward into the deck! (which I witnessed once - A.G. - sharks practice - torque turn).
This is the recovery process: Whichever way the a/c is rapidly rotating, put in OPPOSITE pedal - LOTS of it and HOLD IT. The a/c will then recover.
Do not be put off by the excessive rotation you will be experiencing whie doing this!!!

Other than this 'dodgy' trait, the Gazelle is rapidly becoming a ferrari classic in the civvy world and IF you can afford to run it - a beautiful and rewarding machine to own.
Fully aerobatic (believe me) but obviously under normal civvy rules totally illegal.

diginagain
14th May 2006, 10:04
Ergonomically poor design, (but then what helicopter isn't) leading to lumber problems after prolonged incarceration.

Just occasionally, the donk won't fire up. The solution used to be to get the crewman to hop out and give the engine a bit of a nudge.

Don't leave it out in the rain without some kind of cover over the rotor head, which, by design, is also the MRGB vent.

Before dropping things (such as smoke grenades) through the little message chute in the floor behind the front seats, check to make certain that nobody has fitted something in there, like a transponder.

Oh, and try to remember to open a sliding window in either front door before you slam the door shut - the seals are water- and air-tight and the sudden over-pressure has been known to do damage.

If you are going to want to move it into a hanger at some stage (and the chances are you will), be very careful when levering up, and more especially down, on the diabolo pole.

And you can't force vomit out of the rose vents in the rear doors against the airflow, but that's a pax problem.

Fenestron stall?
However what most inexperienced pilots would do is probably back off with the pedal input that initiated the turn which of course would allow the rotation to continue to accelerate. The pilot then gives up and either the helo crashes from a hover...............

Yup, lad on my APC did just that.

6Z3
14th May 2006, 11:05
Do make sure that your ear protection is the best. The Gazelle's Astazou engine is notoriously damaging to the the high freq spectrum of the aircrew's ears. Not helped I suppose by the fact that your ear is but a few inches from the engine!

609FC
14th May 2006, 11:29
"Whichever way the a/c is rapidly rotating, put in OPPOSITE pedal - LOTS of it and HOLD IT. The a/c will then recover."

Don't know if I'm just being stupid here but can this happen to the left and to the right. Is the rotation a result of apparent anti torque failure and therfore only to the left, or some strange aerodynamic trait of the a/c that means that the fenestron will act as though a pedal input has been made that in fact has not, irraspective of direction? hope that I've made myself clear.

I fully accept your recovery tecnique but If the rotation is because of a stalled anti-torque system, would not holding the pedal in continue what ever proses that got it stalled in the first place?

How many rotations can one expect(In general) before full pedal gets it sorted or is this dependent on many factors.

Many thanks for the ears heads up. mine are already heading south as is.

thanks once again for all the great gen. this just the stuff that you want to have thought about before starting a conversion:ok:

Hughes500
14th May 2006, 18:09
341 has smaller engine
342 is normally sretched by 8 inches and has loads more horses !
The stretch also makes it possible to get pax in the back who are taller than 5 ft 6
Best advice make bloody sure you have a blade in the 12 o clock position on start up otherwise you will need a new blade !

md 600 driver
14th May 2006, 20:56
hughes 500

normally you are so correct but the 341g comes in stretch and std the stretch was a us/can mod i dont think they ever modded a 342

you are correct about the 342 having more horses it has the ast 14 engine not the 3 a/b or the 3n [uk mil] as in the 341

MightyGem
15th May 2006, 07:47
"Fenestron stall" is only to the left. Well it was in my case! Slow hover taxi, decided I needed to turn left quickly, put in a bootfull of left pedal and away she went. :eek: Being close to the ground I pulled in some collective to get clear which of course only made it worse :eek: :eek: .
By that time I was fresh out of ideas, but luckily I had a good stick buddy who saved the day. :ok: As we were living from day to day on our pilots course, we regained our composure, went back to Wallop and never said a word to anyone.

From that day on, if ever I felt it start to go to the left if was right pedal, and dump a bit of lever(height permitting).

Davey Emcee
15th May 2006, 23:10
MG I've seen many of your posts, and often wondered about you. Your last post speaks volumes !!

MightyGem
16th May 2006, 07:06
In what way, pray tell.

flying bizzie
16th May 2006, 07:22
went back to Wallop and never said a word to anyone.

He's hardly spoken since:ok:

MightyGem
16th May 2006, 10:17
Just be thankful your line check was last month and not next month!!

609FC
16th May 2006, 11:03
Great, more good stuff. any special pointers on the pre flight.

diginagain
16th May 2006, 11:45
Check the pitot tube isn't full of turf, and the frange isn't cracked. You might check the fenestron blades to make certain they've not been 'strimming' trees, too.


Not saying that any of my contemporaries might have done anything untoward, you understand.

609FC
16th May 2006, 11:49
the frange isn't cracked. [/quote]

What's a frange when it's home.:bored:

diginagain
16th May 2006, 11:52
Colloquialism for frangible fairing, the plastic bit at the bottom of the fin. Frequently gets bumped, hence frangible.

609FC
16th May 2006, 11:56
Ahhh all makes sence now. Thanks

diginagain
16th May 2006, 12:06
If you open the engine and gearbox cowlings, check, and check again that the over-centre catches are secure. There was once a case of a loose catch (engine cowling, I think) fouling the inclined drive shaft causing scoring to the shaft.

609FC
16th May 2006, 12:08
Another question, why would an a/c with such an unpleasant habit be used for inital training by the military. Surely this fenestron business is the last thing you would want anywhere near very low time pilots?

diginagain
16th May 2006, 12:15
I think, although I stand to be corrected by those who know better, that until the aircraft had been in service for some considerable time, the 'fenestron stall' was a bit of a myth.

Very few low time pilots would have found themselves in the unfortunate position as described by MG, and all-in-all, the Gazelle served well, both as a training aircraft and in operational use. I, for one, look back fondly at my time in it.

Thomas coupling
16th May 2006, 12:18
It was a rare phenomenon and it took years and years before the frogs accepted something was up!
But her good habits and performance more than made up for this naughty little tantrum it occasionally pulled.
Fantastic a/c to fly.

diginagain
16th May 2006, 12:35
.....to remember on the pre-flight. Don't forget to flick up the piece of red wool on its spring-arm. Neither you nor the bloke in the left-hand seat will be able to reach it once you're strapped in, and it's handy for checking that you're in balance.

Practical experience, can't beat it. :O

Bronx
16th May 2006, 12:45
Anyone know why the British Army didn't have SAS on Gazelles but the RAF and Navy did?

I'd have thought the Army woulda needed it more for obs work.

Did students learn without SAS?
Seems like it would hide some effects, like in-flow roll for example.

diginagain
16th May 2006, 12:50
No SAS on the AH1, neither for training nor operational flying - we didn't spend all of our time in the hover on obs tasks. Most of my Gazelle time was spent chasing around low level in Germany and FI, rather than straight and level liaison-type stuff.

What Limits
16th May 2006, 12:50
Also on the pre-flight check the frangible rotor blade caps as well, had to have a few of those replaced !

Surprised that no-one has yet mentioned hydraulics out handling - a bit of a pig to say the least.

With regard to fenestron stall - IMHO still not properly explained by anyone - make sure you set your seat so that you can achieve full and free movement of the TR pedals.

Had a close look at vortex ring state once - 6000 feet over Belfast - but the aircraft recovered itself long before I could react !

I would reiterate the point about crew seats - the military took out the good ones and put in cripplers - after 1500 hours I know all about it, so get a good seat or a lumbar support.

IIRC only a handful of Army aircraft had SAS, but all the RN and RAF machines had it. Of course when instructing on these you had to disengage the SAS to show the effects of controls, but afterward made for some smooth flying.

All said, a good helicopter, simple and fast.

Good Luck

WL.

diginagain
16th May 2006, 12:57
Surprised that no-one has yet mentioned hydraulics out handling - a bit of a pig to say the least.


Especially when you trip out the hydraulics inadvertantly.

While thumbing for the landing light.

At night.

Into a field.

Where your boss has just switched off the strobe you were aiming at.

With no other clues as to where the horizon is.

What Limits
16th May 2006, 13:04
Done that - its even funnier when you do it to a student !!

The Gazelle has a box on the end of the collective lever with several switches on it - the Landing light and Hydraulic switches are virtually identical and adjacent to one another. The HYD switch does have a 'guard' but can easily be mistaken.

Hence the immediate action

HYD caption on CWP

Check switch - if off switch on, if on switch off !

609FC
16th May 2006, 13:06
The a/c we seem to be getting is not fitted with sas. how much of a drawback is this? most of the work will be cruise flying.

diginagain
16th May 2006, 13:11
Never flew a SAS-fitted cab, so I can't add much, but I wouldn't let it put you off. Nice to have, but not essential.

SAS or no, you can't put your hands and feet anywhere but on the controls anyway........

609FC
16th May 2006, 13:24
Have noticed that in some pics the T/R drive shaft has a cowling is this a difference between the 341 and 342?

diginagain
16th May 2006, 13:33
If it's a short cowling at the forward base of the fin where the boom meets up, it's a cover over the quadrant where the cables meet the pitch-change tube for the fenestron. Sometimes fitted, depending on the perception of the powers that be. In winter in Germany we removed them as it was thought that ice could build up inside, in the Falklands we fitted them so that the quadrant would be protected from a sailing blade on start-up/shutdown.

Jim Dean
16th May 2006, 13:58
What always intrigued me about the fenestron issue (I won't say stall) was that the french resolutely refused to acknowledge that there was anything occurring. Even when they showed the 120deg/sec, or thereabouts, recovery their test pilot, all primed and ready to go, just said "there you go, just keep the full right pedal applied, no problem!" (That speed for a couple of revolutions is pretty mindboggling if your not ready for it).What they never managed to explain, if they ever actually addressed it, was why it occurred in the first place. There you are in the hover manouvering, concentrating on something else other than the rotor pedals at the time when away she goes. For whatever reason you hit the ground in the recovery and the french say, "well, if you'd held the spin for another turn it would have recovered." Yea great help!! (and seriously that's not being bitter and twisted).
Apart from that, and it seems to have been a very rare occurrence, a great sports car. Just treat it with care and don't get carried away.

609FC
16th May 2006, 14:15
Has anyone got a video of this demonstration. If there was one even made.

Shawn Coyle
16th May 2006, 14:22
Rumour has it that the Army didn't buy the SAS for two reasons - they could get several extra machines for the cost of the SAS, and they didn't like the control forces with the force trim on (which was necessary for the SAS).
Having flown the only Gazelle (as far as I know) that was fitted with both the cargo hook and SAS, I can say that the SAS made a huge difference in handling with anything dangling from the hook.
I can also say that the time it took to get stabilzed in a quick stop behind trees was significantly shorter with the SAS than without it, and the stability in the hover was much higher with lower workload with the SAS. This would have had a big effect on using the sight.
That, plus the much improved IFR handling with the SAS always made me wonder at who in the Army was thinking long-term about the problem. How many did the Army lose in inadvertant IMC encounters that might have been saved by having a machine fitted with SAS?

diginagain
16th May 2006, 14:33
How many did the Army lose in inadvertant IMC encounters that might have been saved by having a machine fitted with SAS?
I know it's an area of concern for you Shawn, but I'm going to put my neck on the block and say none, unless anyone else knows otherwise. My emphasis on the word 'might', BTW.

Shawn Coyle
16th May 2006, 15:07
The reason I mention the possible link between Army Gazelle accidents in IMC at all is that I seem to remember in my brief time associated with the UK military (80-82), there were a couple of fatal accidents involving Army Gazelles where IMC seemed to be a main factor.
Don't know what happened after that, but even at the time there seemed to be a link between non-SAS and IMC.
And that's why I used the word 'might'.

crab@SAAvn.co.uk
16th May 2006, 17:51
Shawn - I think at least one of those was in the Falklands as an SOP was to go IMC if you were being chased by a Pucara.

I believe Fenestron stall was the result of mishandling, pure and simple mainly because even when you try and induce it in all the 'appropriate conditions' it won't happen. If it was an aerodynamic shortcoming of the fenestron, it would be reproducable on demand (like running out of TR on a jet ranger is) and it just isn't. I don't believe there have been any properly documented (ie BOIs or the like) incidents of 'fenestron stall' in a non-SAS equipped cab. Thousands of students in all 3 armed services learned to fly helicopters in the gazelle with very few incidents or accidents and, I believe, only one documented engine failure (beats the hell out of an R22).

As for the differences between SAS and no SAS, you just get used to it and, whereas with the SAS and stick feel on you could take your hand off the cyclic to fold a map or pick your nose, you can't without SAS. However, there is a cyclic friction which can help on long transits.

Regarding hyd out flight - try a squirrel if you think the gazelle was bad.

Just for the record the only 'Army' gazelles with SAS were those flown by 3BAS Royal Marines/now 847NAS.

MOSTAFA
16th May 2006, 19:36
For Shaun - I dont think we lost any to IMC problems caused by a lack of SAS but you are right it was an application that required constant practice.

For Crab - J, The AAC had at least 10 machines fittted with SAS. I believe they were bought for the old 2 Flt (AMF) L. The transits to Turkey (18 Hours) would have been a bugger without it. They were lost when some bright spark decided 2 Flt needed HF (compatability) I'm pretty certain the TA have at least a few of them now.

Bertie Thruster
16th May 2006, 21:38
Crab. 1200 hrs Gazelle for me equalled 2 engine failures; one in the hover(total loss of engine oil.) one on the ground (rear bearing collapse)

crab@SAAvn.co.uk
17th May 2006, 05:37
Mostafa - I stand corrected, I didn't know about the 2 flt ones.

Bertie - I should have been more specific, I meant during flying trg - I assume yours were during one of your AAC tours.

Bertie Thruster
17th May 2006, 09:37
Yes Crab, on my one AAC attached 3 year tour.

yakyakyakyak
18th May 2006, 09:53
609fc,
my instructor a very experienced pilot with several thousand hours on gazelles, suggested quietly as he was waving me off after the type convertion
"no need to try and impress! the aircraft will do that on its own"
get the best ex forces training you can lay your hands on down there,
this a/c going to spoil you! there's no way back after owning a gazelle
enjoy.:ok:

md 600 driver
4th Jun 2006, 09:40
has anyone put 2 gazelles on a 40ft curtainsider at the same time without dismantling [obviousley blades off ]
any tips

996
4th Jun 2006, 14:39
PM Inbound

anti-talk
4th Jun 2006, 17:38
Talking of gazelle's, any idea how much they cost per hour to operate dry.
Also in normal use, G model, what is its approx fuel burn per hour?
Thank you
Geoff
UK figures are fine I can work costs back to include shipping of parts etc

Hughes500
4th Jun 2006, 18:12
antitalk are they ex UK military ones ? About 40 Imperial gallons a hour. Cost a small fortune to run

anti-talk
5th Jun 2006, 14:41
Engine overhaul?

turbomecca USA gave me a contact in Colarado but havent been able to get hold of him - Mark Bond.

What is the cost of an Astrazou overhaul? Either return to europe or in the USA.

Just trying to budget - the machine has 450 hrs on it that we are trying to buy.

Thanks Geoff

SASless
5th Jun 2006, 14:51
The price of military spec parts will alter your love affair with the Gazelle...civvie parts are much cheaper. (In comparison only...)

md 600 driver
5th Jun 2006, 16:02
sasless
sureley you have that the wrong way round civil bits are twice the price
ask phil

Wizzard
5th Jun 2006, 16:07
There was a Gazelle lost on Route 5 out of Aldergrove en-route to Lisburn - night, poor Wx, no gogs (early 80's). It was put down to inadvertenet IMC.
I have flown the Gaz with SAS and the very primative stick feel system: SAS was OK but the stick feel - IMO - was crap, we switched it off most of the time.

SASless
5th Jun 2006, 16:09
Either way they will make your eyes water when you get the bill. Trying to find an affordable overhaul shop for the components can be a problem too.

Pablo46
19th Jun 2006, 14:20
I am involved in a Gazelle restoration and have been given a shopping list !! I am trying to track down a Turbomeca 3a engine for our Gazelle, I am more used to dealing with RR so not to sure of my way around this engine. Any leads at all from anywhere in the world would be gratefully recieved. Contact Chris by reply or christopher.copeland@<hidden> or 07851 071719. cheers....:) :)

lartsa
19th Jun 2006, 14:51
chris
do you have one to overhaul ?

Heliport
19th Jun 2006, 15:44
MW Helicopters at Stapleford is probably your best starting point.
They maintain most of the UK Gazelle fleet, as well as producing stunning refurbs, .

Martin Woods
Tel: 01708 688115
or email : contact@<hidden>

Tiger_mate
12th Sep 2006, 17:01
Please settle an argument:

Can the Gazelle helicopter be flown with ground handling wheels still attached??

Monty77
12th Sep 2006, 17:24
Yes.

Unfortunately, the right-angle securing pin for the wheel dolly will fall off if more than 20 degrees angle of bank is exceeded.

Seen it happen. Ground and Aircrew missed it in Yorkshire in the 90s (allegedly).

The pin twatted some mate's garage roof, but luckily he was an on-side chap.

Best one I ever saw was a Wessex in NI when a crew set off for an IF sortie. Pilot stuck his gun (HK53) in a convenient slot in the steps up to the cockpit (barrel nose down) while he checked the rigging.

Set off for an hour's stunting and bunting and had kittens when he trod on his own gat while climbing out of the cab.

Priceless.

Somebody start a thread on lost kit/colliding with fort walls/stolen ammo/ etc

I live in a glass house and will therefore not criticize those who choose to make use of the one metre range.....twice!

To those of you who have done well,.....and you know who you are,...

Well Done!

I jest not.

Monty77
12th Sep 2006, 17:27
To clarify:

Wheels off, pin still in the slot in the skid. Easy to miss on a busy day.

Tourist
12th Sep 2006, 17:27
It will only fall off if you are out of balance Monty!.............you know, the bit of string in front of you that always points to the side.......?
Guess you must be Amateur Air Corps

diginagain
12th Sep 2006, 17:38
Odd, all the diabolo wheels I fitted as groundcrew had a segment cut out to enable the pin to fit behind a locking device, in order to prevent inadvertant extraction.

WRT gats, the decision to withdraw slings from the HK was the result of a floppy driver hanging his on the stores boom while he did the walkround. Said gat eventually dropped off, resulting in a phone call to the feds from a local complaining about the new hole in her garage roof.

Monty77
12th Sep 2006, 17:39
In balance, gravity wins.

I've seen more amateurs on 72 in the 90's (Pilot Officers/Flying Officers) than I ever saw in the AAC. It was a circus/sinbin for the dross out of Shawbury.

I'm RAF mate, but I know you can't polish a turd.

Monty77
12th Sep 2006, 17:44
Dig

It wasn't the boom (we're talking Wessex), it was the steps up the side.

Perfect HK53 nozzle slot while you open the transmission deck door to check for....er stowaways.

MightyGem
12th Sep 2006, 18:05
Can the Gazelle helicopter be flown with ground handling wheels still attached
Yes, but they're not supposed to be!!

EmeraldToilet
12th Sep 2006, 18:55
Should the answer not be; Yes, but why would you want to ???

And i never left my HK anywhere but in the aircraft, but if I did, thanks to the 230 crewman for keeping an eye on it for me!!

diginagain
12th Sep 2006, 19:26
Monty, t'was the boom (we're talking Floppy), I was standing in '5' Ops when Glengormley RUC called with request to check a butt number.

RotatingPart
13th Sep 2006, 00:19
I seem to remember someone's HK leaving a nice neat hole on the pan at City Flight in the late 90's too. The cheeky bleeder then tried to hand his weapon (now only good for shooting round corners) back into the armoury at the end of the duty :hmm:.

Anyway, back to the original question. The Diablo wheels were never meant to flown outside the airframe but I do recall a thin set of wheels which could be stowed on the skid during flight. But why would you want to? :rolleyes:

diginagain
13th Sep 2006, 00:28
The rear skid posts have a tube welded to them with a hole for a pip-pin, just for carrying the skinny wheels. You also needed a hydraulic jack plugged into one of the pair of diabolo mounts to raise the cab.

Did the deed once on my Basic Groundcrewman course, and never used them again, apart from lobbing them into the back of the flight G1098 Bedford when we deployed on exercise.

gsa
24th Oct 2006, 12:47
Just for the record the only 'Army' gazelles with SAS

No they weren't

We had SAS fitted to 3 Gazelles in Berlin in the early 80s also it was fitted to both the aircraft we used in Canada in 85 all Army. I had the frightening pleasure of being in the left seat when a colleague tried to go low level over the training area using the SAS but forgot we had a load on an 8ft strop under the aircraft.

MightyGem
24th Oct 2006, 19:18
It could be my memory I suppose, but I was at BATUS for 4 months in 85, and don't remember the aircraft having SAS.

gsa
25th Oct 2006, 07:51
but I was at BATUS for 4 months in 85

They were up at Wainwright. I don't know who we took them over from.

OffshoreHeli
25th Oct 2006, 20:32
I flew in BATUS and Wainwright in the 80's and we took our own machines to Wainwright and left them there for the next detachment. The Batus Gazelles were not fitted with SAS. You probably took over the machines in Wainwright from the marines who did have SAS.

MightyGem
25th Oct 2006, 20:52
Ahhh, right.

ppheli
22nd Dec 2006, 08:20
Here's something to keep an eye on. CAA have just registered the first ever SA342J on the G register - see G-TOPZ (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=60&pagetype=65&applicationid=1&mode=detailnosummary&fullregmark=G-TOPZ). This aircraft has been flowed and maintained in the UK some years on the French register. Is a 342J sufficiently close to a 341G to get a full CofA?

Having discussed the pros and cons of engine certification on this thread, this one has an Astazou XIV H engine. Is that OK for a CofA in the UK, or can grandparent rights be claimed from French certification now?

MD600Driver - I think your latest one has an XIV H engine too? Perhaps you can shed some light here?

md 600 driver
22nd Dec 2006, 16:36
pp heli
yes both of them have the XIV H

the 342j is the hot and high one more power and the uprated tail rotor blades like the uk military it was made for civil use like the 341g but there was not many made there are a few on the yugo register too

steve

Tandemrotor
23rd Dec 2006, 17:56
Hi guys, I thought I had seen a similar thread to this sometime back, but can't now find it. Basically I'm wondering how the Gazelle is rated for private ownership alongside other 5 seat turbine singles?

Cheers

Hughes500
24th Dec 2006, 08:08
Tandemrotor

Bear in mind they havent been made for some time so spares will dry up. The Turbomeca engine costs a fortune to overhaul as do the transmissions. They are very uncomfortable in the back - your knees will be pressed up against the seat infront, so much so you have to sit like an old tart if you are taller than 5 ft 8 !!!
They will cruise about 125 kts at ips drinking about 40 imp gallons an hour. In UK permit to fly ones ( ex mil ) are a good buy providing you dont want to take any pax, fly at night or outside UK airspace - so perhaps not such a good buy !

md 600 driver
24th Dec 2006, 09:21
sorry andrew dont agree
i think the gazelle is a good buy there are lots of parts avaiable if you look around, all all parts are still available new. yes the engine is expensive to maintain but as it very rarely goes wrong or need case halfs ect it could work out cheaper but i dont want to get into an allison argument just now
i dont think there any ex mil ones for sale at the moment but someone will prove me wrong but the spares side from the military seems to be changing the mod has just released 18 x 3n2 engines [i dont know of their condition ]
the gazelle is a pilots machine just like the 500 in the gazelle you could sit like an old tart as you say or sit in the back of your 500 and get a crick in the neck lol

as for parts most owners have access or have a stock of servicable parts i myself have every major rotorble part available to replace on my aircraft but please note i am NOT wanting to sell any of them

steve

Hughes500
24th Dec 2006, 11:13
Steve

Would agree with you there, just trying to point out to the guy that he is potentially buying an obselete machine ( although streets better than its replacement -EC120).
Never sit in the back of a 500 though so dont know what you mean!!!!!!!!
John's 342 is much nicer than 341 for pax and would go with this everytime
I think MW still have a couple of mil ones for sale and still GGAZI the one I used to regularly fly.
Right about a 250 although my cases seem to last 5years and about 1200 hrs. Pity Turbomeca aren't more reasonable in pricing EC120 fcu £ 22k, 250 fcu £4.5k
Have a Happy Xmas and safe year Steve and all rotorheads everyone

SilsoeSid
22nd Jan 2007, 23:33
As opposed to the diablo wheels, more commonly only used back at base,

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/0647461.jpg

The fly away wheels could be fitted on the rear skid arch, on a mount secured by a pit pin, as dig in says.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/0227619.jpg

These days, it would seem (by the time it took to find these pics!), the bracket has been removed. Even so, on the many times when the use of fly away wheels was called for, I found they would, in reality, be carried inside the aircraft.

For ground handling, the skids would be raised by the hydraulic jack and the fly away wheel fitted to the atttachment place the diablo wheels would normally be fitted to. Hence the 2 attachment tubes on each skid. (1 for the jack, 1 for the wheel.)

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/0220054.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/0215643.jpg

An excellent bit of kit and ideally useful when putting the aircraft on the back of a C-130. :ok:

GreenKnight121
23rd Jan 2007, 01:19
Nice B-747 pics, but wot do they have to do...

Sue VÍtements
23rd Jan 2007, 01:31
...apparently, THEY can be flown with ground handling wheels still attached :E

Blacksheep
23rd Jan 2007, 04:05
THEY can be flown with ground handling wheels still attached Yeah, but its a good idea to take the pin out of the nose gear steering after you've pushed one back.

That's why the pilots like the push-back crew to wave it at them before they set the big eighteen wheeler in motion.


One Friday evening I was helping to put the CDS's Gazelle away for the night at Northolt, on Monday morning I was set to work on a B747 at Heathrow. Quite a change of scenery (and quite a cut in pay too! - until I got my licence)

serf
23rd Jan 2007, 05:29
Is the Gazelle going out of service this year?

SilsoeSid
23rd Jan 2007, 10:22
Well spotted Green Knight.

However, if you had refreshed your window the pics would have appeared for you. I have now hosted them elsewhere, so you should'nt have to do anything too complicated in order to see them.

For those who missed it, because of the airliners.net link and an inability to refresh the page, instead of the Gazelle pics, Green Knight saw the airliners.net logo.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/nonFrontpageLogo.jpg

:rolleyes:

PICKS135
23rd Jan 2007, 15:34
As opposed to the diablo wheels, more commonly only used back at base,
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/0647461.jpg
The fly away wheels could be fitted on the rear skid arch, on a mount secured by a pit pin, as dig in says.
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/0227619.jpg
These days, it would seem (by the time it took to find these pics!), the bracket has been removed. Even so, on the many times when the use of fly away wheels was called for, I found they would, in reality, be carried inside the aircraft.
For ground handling, the skids would be raised by the hydraulic jack and the fly away wheel fitted to the atttachment place the diablo wheels would normally be fitted to. Hence the 2 attachment tubes on each skid. (1 for the jack, 1 for the wheel.)
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/0220054.jpg
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/0215643.jpg
An excellent bit of kit and ideally useful when putting the aircraft on the back of a C-130. :ok:
Ah but can it be flown with the picnic table attached to the tail, as in photo 3
:) :)

SilsoeSid
24th Jan 2007, 14:31
Well spotted that man.

With the fly awaywheels attached, the aircraft does not sit on the front of the skids (unlike when the diablo wheels are in place) and if left unattended would come to rest on the frangable fairing! :eek:

Unless of course you had a picnic table handy!!!
(notice if you will, that it is an RAF Gazelle, so a picnic table would never be too far away!) :wink:

escapada
26th Sep 2007, 19:19
Hi Rotorheads

I noticed this thread ended Dec06, so don't know if anybody will reply. It's just that i'm looking to buy a civilian Gazelle 341G or 342J, and finding limited machines for sale. Like most buyers i'm looking for relatively low hrs well cared for and a relatively decent avionics package. I have a budget of between £250k up to £300k. I will consider a machine which needs work or has high hrs, but obviously it will reflect in the price.

It's purely for pleasure, but i want to be able to carry passengers so don't want military as the permit to fly will not allow.

Any leads will be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks - replies to paul@<hidden> please

enstrompilot
1st Oct 2007, 19:28
mark weir has an ex yugoslavia gazell
he may want to sell
if you want his phone number emai me

serf
1st Oct 2007, 21:35
Hang around for a year and there may be lots of them for sale.

enstrompilot
2nd Oct 2007, 08:04
why in a year ?

md 600 driver
2nd Oct 2007, 15:40
he possibly means ex military gazelles

Flying Lawyer
2nd Oct 2007, 19:21
escapada

MW Helicopters at Stapleford not only restore and sell Gazelles but maintain more of them than anyone in the UK, probably the world.
Their restored Gazelles are widely considered to be better than when new. Never having seen a new Gazelle, I don't know if that's true but, having seen and flown a few MW restorations owned by friends of mine, I can believe it. They are absolutely stunning.

I suggest speaking to Martin Woods at MW would be a good place to start. Even if MW haven't got anything suitable for sale, he's likely to know if there are any available or about to become available.


FL

escapada
7th Oct 2007, 10:47
Thanks for the lead. I have been to see Martin Wood a couple of times, and he is looking out for a Gazelle for me. They were mainly built 30 yrs ago, so new ones don't exist. It's like buses i'm told, never one when you want one, then 3 come at once. Will just have to be patient and wait until one comes on the market.
Thanks for your time.

escapada
7th Oct 2007, 10:54
Thanks for the advise on Mark Weir's Gazelle, and yes I would appreciate his tel number.
You can email me direct on paul@<hidden> or call 07785 734629. Many thanks for the lead.

poor southerner
29th Jan 2008, 12:33
can anyine help with some minor q's

What is the engine tbo for the std civy and ex-mil machines

are the running costs more than a B206 purely due to the engine or is there something else.

206 jock
29th Jan 2008, 13:07
Huge fuel consumption and spares (at least for civi models) that are allegedly like rocking horse poo won't help the Gaz's running costs, I guess.

ShyTorque
30th Jan 2008, 08:56
As this thread has re-appeared by some strange coincidence, I offer my sincere condolences to the family of Escapada and his wife.

md 600 driver
30th Jan 2008, 10:28
VERY BRIEFLY

civil 341g 1500 or 1750
ex uk military 2500

but unlike alisons most go to there tbo without problems

parts are sometimes difficult to find but all parts are available ,the gazelle uses more fuel than the JR [some one care to do the maths if it uses more fuel per hour than a jet ranger when the speed and 5 persons on board are taken into account ]

but its much much more fun to fly and a lot faster you can also fill with passengers and put in full fuel without severe problems

steve

steve

toptobottom
11th Jul 2009, 13:59
I recently made enquiries with a certain leading Aviation Insurer, as I had fancied 'upgrading' to a Gazelle. However, I was quickly and politely informed that despite my (claim free) 800+ PPL(H) hours, I would need:

2,000+ P1 rotary hours
1,000+ minimum hours on turbines
500+ hours minimum on type, and (wait for it...)
A safety pilot at all times!!

Is it me? I've never had a claim and yet unless I already own a Gazelle, I don't see how I ever will. My only option would be to look at the Hungarian register and corresponding insurance (which, despite all the downsides, would only cost in the region of £800 p.a.).

Anyone else been through this?

SilsoeSid
11th Jul 2009, 14:22
Buy it, insure it, I will fly for you and you can be my safety pilot!

Wait a minute, are they saying you could be my safety pilot despite not having the required hours?

How does that work?

SASless
11th Jul 2009, 14:54
TTB,

You might also want to check up on the maintenance costs if the machine is ex-military....surplus/military spec parts are really...really...really expensive.

The same part good for use on a civvie machine is like about a third the cost of the milspec parts.

A JetRanger might be a better choice for you although not as sexy.

BoeingMEL
11th Jul 2009, 15:02
I do adore the Gazelle but you need deep pockets! True, the B206 will do 95% of what that Gaz can do at prolly half the cost... you'll even quickly get used to the traditional collective in the Bell! Good luck anyway BM

G-OAT
11th Jul 2009, 15:31
I think there is a Company in Aberdeen who has a Gazelle on their AOC, and last time I looked it was only £500 per hour plus pilot

Might be worth a look

G

md 600 driver
11th Jul 2009, 17:16
sasless

gazelles are civil too in the uk there are more civil gazelles in the uk flying than ex military

ex mil surplus gazelle parts are not that expensive its the civil parts that are

i can buy any gazelle part ex military and they are a good deal cheaper than civil parts for a jetbanger

toptobottom have sent you pm

hoopla
17th Jul 2009, 15:03
Sorry to intrude on the Rotorheads forum I'm in GA, but got a mate who's now a rotor boy in the US looking to buy a Gazelle for some heavy lifting.
Doesn't mind coming over to pick up and ship back if the price is right

PM me with info would be most grateful,, cheers
Hoopla

Ian Corrigible
17th Jul 2009, 15:40
There are five listed on Controller (http://www.controller.com/listings/list.aspx?ETID=1&catid=7&Manu=EUROCOPTER&Mdltxt=SA+341G&mdlx=exact&setype=1&GUID=E652FC93D3DC478A9D29CD4BAFD0B75D) at present.

I/C

chopjock
17th Jul 2009, 15:43
Is a Gazelle any good for heavy lifting? Will the finestron stall under a heavy load with no airspeed?

Whirlygig
17th Jul 2009, 16:06
Heavy Lift? Gazelle? How about something that can lift a Gazelle!

http://homepage.mac.com/helipilot/PPRuNe/SeaKingLiftingGazelle.jpg

Or even something that can lift the Sea King? :ok:

BBC NEWS | UK | Chinook rescues helicopter (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7493547.stm)


Cheers

Whirls

alouette
17th Jul 2009, 16:07
I'd rather use a Lama for the lifting...I'm not so sure with a Gazelle...

SilsoeSid
17th Jul 2009, 16:44
I'll raise your Chinook,

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/helicopters/size/mi26_01.jpg

http://warfare.ru/image.aspx?img=0702ey70/update/april2004/Mi26.Chinook.jpg

HeliAl
17th Jul 2009, 18:51
If you need to lift, might I suggest the 342 variant.
Bigger engine uprated transmission.
Several for sale in the UK I believe.
Great Aircraft to fly.:8

SilsoeSid
17th Jul 2009, 22:34
26 lifting a TU-134

http://news.joins.com/component/htmlphoto_mmdata/200904/htm_2009041802453840004010-001.JPG

What Limits
17th Jul 2009, 23:46
I don't recall the Gazelle being categorised as a heavy lifter but you should look at the Lama which can lift a lot and take it to altitude like no other.

The designation is SA315.

s1lverback
24th Jul 2009, 11:06
Hi, I enquired about conversion and hiring one from Excel Charter.

The response was:

"We can carry out training on the Gazelle for type rating but would require 5 hours minimum for 1st Turbine.
The cost is £550 per hour wet and your instructor would be £350 per day and I would allow a minimum of 3 days.
All subject to VAT at the prevailing rate.

As far as hiring an aircraft is concerned our insurance requires a minimum of 500 hours total time, 250 hours turbine and 100 hours make and model"

I am a long way off those hours for rotary :ouch:

Tickle
19th Aug 2009, 23:37
I have some technical questions about the operation of the Gazelle helicopter. I'm wondering if someone can answer them. They are for a technical discussion on the Blue Thunder film.

a) From what I see in YouTube videos, the normal startup of a Gazelle would be to start the turbine, then run up the rotors to full RPM. Is that correct?

b) Can you start a Gazelle with the rotors engaged, like with a Jetranger? This is seen briefly in the film, but I suspect it was pretend for the film.

c) Can you run the turbine with the rotors engaged at an idle RPM setting, or must you keep it at the flight RPM setting?

d) If you can idle the turbine and rotors, does it suffer from the same vibration problems as the C series Dauphin if being idled with the rotors engaged?

e) Did these specific procedures change since 1983 (when the film was made)?

Thanks!

Andrew.

What Limits
20th Aug 2009, 03:10
The gazelle has a centrifugal clutch in the drivetrain that engages and disengages at around 30000 ish RPM

The normal start sequence is to start the engine which 'ground idles' at 25000ish Nc IIRC.

Then advance the throttle smoothly until the clutch bites then advance keeping the torque between 10 and 20%

Once the throttle is fully forward, the aircraft 'flight idles' at around 47000 ish RPM Nc IIRC

If you bring the throttle back to ground idle, the clutch will disengage and the rotors will come to a stop either by using the rotor brake or by friction. The engine will continue to run at 25000 ish

If you have an out of balance clutch or freewheel it tells you right soon.

AFAIK the gazelle has always been run like this.

I am sure some smart aleck will correct the numbers, but its been a few years and several types since I flew that sucker!

MightyGem
20th Aug 2009, 07:19
Ignore anything that you saw in Blue Thunder. Especially the turned up collar on Roy Schnieder's flying suit!

Tickle
22nd Aug 2009, 03:07
Thanks, What Limits. That helps explain everything! :)

What's the significance of the upturned collar? I have a feeling it has to do with respect or status, or something?

MightyGem
22nd Aug 2009, 06:09
with respect or status, or something?
Something, definitely, but neither of those two.

DXB
16th Jan 2010, 19:04
Gents

Have been flying for many years on fixed wing....looking at getting a Gazelle for my personal use.Would appreciate pro's and con's on this machine......thanks in advance for any info.

toptobottom
16th Jan 2010, 19:40
DXB - check your PMs!

TTB

Wizzard
16th Jan 2010, 19:59
Great machine but NOT for inexperienced helicopter pilots:=

timex
16th Jan 2010, 20:15
DXB, the Gazelle is a superb A/C. It like every other has foibles but in over 3000 hrs the only failures I ever had were a Generator and a couple of Radio snags.

I'd suggest a good handling package with an experienced Gazelle qualified guy before leaping off into the wide blue younder.

Bladecrack
16th Jan 2010, 21:40
Great machine but NOT for inexperienced helicopter pilots

Why not? Didn't the military use them as a basic trainer before the AS350?

BC

spinwing
16th Jan 2010, 21:49
Mmmmm ...


Why not? Didn't the military use them as a basic trainer before the AS350?


Perhaps .... BUT ... the level of supervision of a MIL nooby is generally a lot greater than that of a CIVVY nooby!!!

And a Gazelle will BITE you very quickly if you abuse the 'slippery lil sucker'.

:}

thwock
17th Jan 2010, 14:42
i'd be happier sending a newly qualified pilot off in a gazelle than a R22, the only problem with inexperienced pilot in a gazelle is the speed at which people tend to fly them is faster than their brain. So learn sensibly and initially fly slowly 70-90 kts untill your brain/reactions catch up

Hughes500
17th Jan 2010, 18:28
Bladecrack,bear in mind that the mil had chopped a lot of potential pilots before the course got anywhere near the 341. Then remember that the potential pilots were paid to be there and were living, breathing helicopters for 8 to 10 hours a day, 5 days a week for the best part of 8 months. Plus some top notch instructors. I was told the gazelle was an easy heli to fly but a very difficult one to fly well, which i managed to prove on loads of occasions:) thwock is dead right, the whistling sperm will get you into trouble very quickly unless the brain is infront of it

ShyTorque
17th Jan 2010, 18:53
Plus some top notch instructors.

Who are we to argue? :ok:

The Gazelle is a great little machine. Found my ideal job flying as an unofficial trial comms and recce pilot for the deployed Chinooks in Germany, back in the 1980s.

No crewman, flew at 50 to 100' agl everywhere, parked anywhere, scrounged a meal at whatever flight I went to, own boss - bliss!

They were so chuffed they later went and got their own.

Well, it knocked airfield damage repair recce (what I was really supposed to be doing) into a cocked hat! :cool:

Wizzard
17th Jan 2010, 23:31
Bladecrack,bear in mind that the mil had chopped a lot of potential pilots before the course got anywhere near the 341. Then remember that the potential pilots were paid to be there and were living, breathing helicopters for 8 to 10 hours a day, 5 days a week for the best part of 8 months. Plus some top notch instructors. I was told the gazelle was an easy heli to fly but a very difficult one to fly well, which i managed to prove on loads of occasions thwock is dead right, the whistling sperm will get you into trouble very quickly unless the brain is infront of it

Now that's what I should have said in my first post:D

Take care the Gazelle will bite.

MightyGem
18th Jan 2010, 09:53
Then remember that the potential pilots were paid to be there and were living, breathing helicopters for 8 to 10 hours a day, 5 days a week for the best part of 8 months. Plus some top notch instructors.
Plus, we had 150 hours on it before being let loose on our own, and even then I had a crewman with me to keep me in check. :=

diginagain
18th Jan 2010, 10:00
and even then I had a crewman with me to keep me in check:=

Why the finger-wagging? I wasn't that hard on you, was I?:)

Swiss Cheese
18th Jan 2010, 11:19
I am taking my time doing my PPL H on an EC-120, that often sits on the pad near a Gazelle.

I have yet to fly a Gazelle, but know from looking at a few accidents, that they can be trouble in inexperienced or distracted hands. Relatively low costs of ownership entice many new rotorheads to them, and their performance and reliability is top quartile. However, LTE has caught out many pilots, some fatally, and that does not need to be done at speed. Check out an AAIB report from last Autumn about just that phenomenon with a low time pilot whose brain was minutes behind his new machine.

If you have the time, fly a few different machines with and without fenestrons, and feel the rather subtle but important differences.

I'm happy with the EC120 at the moment, but might take a look at a Gazelle in a 100 hrs time!

good luck

James

spinwing
18th Jan 2010, 19:42
Mmmm ....

LTE on the Gazelle not so much ....

Rule of thumb No.1 ....

"Only use your big toes on the pedals' to avoid massive Tq fluctuations!!! :eek:
.... (certainly until you get used to it).


:}

generalspecific
2nd Mar 2010, 08:28
What's the market like for Gazelles like right now. I notice there are a few more for sale. Is this just recession blues or are there starting to be problems on spares / running costs etc (as some of the doom sayers in earler posts werre predicting).

My interest is that I am starting to talk myself into pursuing a reckless purchase....

helihub
2nd Mar 2010, 09:18
Another 30 were recently sold by UK military, but I think it's too early for that to have an effect? Of these 30, I hear that they all went to one purchaser, who will make 15 airworthy and use 15 as spares sources. Longer term effect with more in the market has to be of prices coming down, my school Economics lessons tell me.

jetbox 21
2nd Mar 2010, 11:41
Does anybody know where the latest batch of MOD one's went to ?
I was told they went to a regular MOD dispersall agent !!

md 600 driver
2nd Mar 2010, 12:17
JETBOX HI
i believe they went to witham ""beware what you buy""

call me on the phone if you want to talk

steve

Tickle
21st Apr 2010, 04:24
I was wondering, what made the Gazelle so better in basic performance (speed and lifting), when compared to a modern EC120?

Does the extra 2 feet in rotor diameter play a large part in it?

zlocko2002
21st Apr 2010, 09:07
my flight instructors fly gazele, after accident with b206 there was investigation and bell representativ was there. instructors stated that they have never had such problem on gazele. i remember bell representative stated that gazzele is almost perfect helicopter!

Shawn Coyle
22nd Apr 2010, 11:44
zlocko:
While the Gazelle has some very fine features, there are also problems unique to the Gazelle that are not present on the Bell 206. (jackstall for example)
Sadly, there is no perfect design, no perfect manufacturer, no perfect certification authority, no perfect operator and so on.

Hughes500
22nd Apr 2010, 17:23
Having had both the 341 is streets better than a 206 until it comes to the bills !

Shawn Coyle
23rd Apr 2010, 16:13
And the fuel bill particularly!

206 jock
28th Apr 2010, 16:04
i believe they went to witham ""beware what you buy""Welcome to MOD Sales Online - Gazelle AH-1 Military Helicopters (http://www.mod-sales.com/direct/vehicle/home/29696/Gazelle.htm#)

kevin_mayes
28th Apr 2010, 20:46
MD_600
Whats the real crack with these then...?
Is it worth a bid/look, have dealt with Withams before when I got a couple of tanks (tracked types with guns) from them (didn't do 40 very well)... interesting at the time but the outcome was good fun.
Kev.

heli1
29th Apr 2010, 05:39
Someone ought to be prosecuted for fraud if these really are sold to the unsuspecting.MoD wanted to scrap them but the Treasury and DSA overruled them.All the aircraft are ex Army with unknown service stress issues,unlike the RAF and Navy machines that were restricted to training.
As ex military they cannot have a CofA so are restricted in use (e.g.No passengers or commercial ,no flight over congested areas etc )and buyers could be faced with a £500,00 bill just to overhaul the engine as most of them are either unserviceable or close to life .Neither Eurocopter or Turbomeca want to support them or take any kind of responsibility and I don't blame them.
Will all the above appear in the sale particulars? Have Withams been conned by DSA,desperate to get shot ? Who should really take the blame if unsuspecting buyers come along and are not properly advised.Would " Buyer Beware" apply under such circumstances? I don't think so.

Hughes500
29th Apr 2010, 06:27
heli 1
To overhaul the engine is about £ 175k to zero it, where do you get your figures from ? Would love to know how you stress the airframe, that implies that the army pilots and maintenance people are unprofessional ? Gazelle was used as a recce and liasion heli, so was hardly overloaded !

md 600 driver
29th Apr 2010, 08:27
hughes 500

to overhaul the engine would cost 400,000 euros[ thats the price the mil have been paying ] but fortunately there are some 0 timed ones around circa £120,000 and less for more used ones if you know where to look

afaik the witham ones are for sale as is for £75 to 125k each, add to that £25k to £30k for overhaul costs [plus any major parts]

some of these need new engines [old ones US not time ex ],FCU,s [same as engines ] ,

heli1
29th Apr 2010, 11:15
Thank you MD600 for confirming that.However the costs still don't include certain CAA mod requirements before they will issue a permit to fly .
In answer to the stress question raised by H500,Of course the Army fly professionally but their role was very different to the tame training carried out by the RAF and Navy.Quite a few rebuilds as I recall after heavy landings too !

IndyHelis
29th Apr 2010, 12:45
Greetings fellow aviation nuts,

I have been searching and searching and searching the internet for a long time for some info on gazelles and was close to giving up. I am building (and flying) a 1/7th scale 341G Blue Thunder. Please dont hate me for that lol... Its still a beautiful aircraft and what made that movie good then and STILL to this day is the fact they actually built it (actually 2 fully flyable). This is why so many movies these days suck due to all the computer generated crap that is total crap....
Anyways... there are some components i can just buy and make it fly but im trying to scale things as best i can... I am having a really tough time finding photoraphs or manuals, documents of the 341 (or similiar) rotor mast gear reduction unit and swash plate... Sure there are lots of photos on airliners.net but just not the stuff i really need.
Would any of you gazelle lovers, pilots, service guys have any photos, documents, or dimensions of the swashplate/gearbox area's....??? I will also need info for like the collective housing and lever and many other areas but for now the gearbox/transmission and swashplate are my big concerns.

a few images of the kit.
http://www.indyhelis.com/gallery/gallery012/1.jpg
http://www.indyhelis.com/gallery/gallery012/9.jpg

Thank you for your time

Dave Townsend
davet70@<hidden>

md 600 driver
29th Apr 2010, 15:33
heli

I own a ex army gazelle xz299 the overhaul costs I used are accurate they are what I paid
I don't know of any specific reqirements to get a ex mil army gazelle permited that are any different to the RAF and navy ones

If anyone was to buy a aircraft that had had a bad landing I can't see that causing any extra problems either As any repairs carried out would have been carried out to the highest standard/safety and as far as costs concerned unlimited

When it comes to overstress and hard landings I think you may find it's the navy sharks and all the other training helicopters that if any, would be possible candidates, as the gaz is a tough old bird

The army and marines ones were used like GTV ,s (landrovers )

a packet of smarties to the first one who cofirms what branch of the mil in was in

IndyHelis
3rd May 2010, 12:15
Thanks to Stipe Zivaljic , he has sent a few good drawings to get me going but i still need actual photos... Reason being i question one of the drawings he sent... i think its an artist error but i need a real photo to confirm... of you actual gazelle owners can someone take a few photos for me of the upper and lower swashplate??? And other areas later on?

Thanks

md 600 driver
3rd May 2010, 17:07
Indy

I am still waiting for your detailed drawings of exactly where you want photos taken and which angles

IndyHelis
3rd May 2010, 19:42
roger that, when i get home from work here in about an hour i will post it up... THANKS!



Dave

SiClick
3rd May 2010, 20:23
Anyone know of a company that makes simulators for Gazelles? Just a basic procedure trainer rather than a full motion sim.

IndyHelis
3rd May 2010, 21:20
As promised:

http://www.indyhelis.com/junk/gazelleswash.jpg


The areas that are colored are what i am most in need of info... particularly the blue lower swashplate... if someone had one off the helicopter for servicing that would be even better!

SilsoeSid
3rd May 2010, 21:28
IndyHelis,
I have been searching and searching and searching the internet for a long time for some info on gazelles and was close to giving up.Great modelling, however.;
As an ex-Gaz Jock, the first thing that struck me was, and I really don't want to ruin any parades... but the blades go the other way round :uhoh:

http://www.army.mod.uk/images/central-panel/gazelle_410px.jpg

Image too big for PPRuNe! (http://www.indyhelis.com/gallery/gallery012/9.jpg)

http://airwing.uplink.com.au/bluethunder/images/media/20_1_L_00010008b.jpg

krypton_john
3rd May 2010, 22:23
Hovercontrol.com - Helicopter Simulator (http://www.hovercontrol.com)

Will almost certainly have an SA-341G model for MS Flight Simulator.

IndyHelis
4th May 2010, 00:51
where or what pic do you see them going the wrong way? as far as i know they all go clockwise for the 341...

EDIT, just figured out which one your talkin about... that particular kit "that" guy built used a set of mechanics that would be the wrong way... there are soooo many different manufacturers of heli mechanic kits... they are all different and can be left or right hand rotation... mine is correct..

on a side note thats a fantastic photo, where did you get that please...? ive been researching images and information on this project for 5 years and have never came across that photo and seeing the guy holding a torch is a little scary lol... It also looks undersized and makes me think its the wooden version they blew up at the end...

SilsoeSid
4th May 2010, 09:22
on a side note thats a fantastic photo, where did you get that please...? ive been researching images and information on this project for 5 years and have never came across that photo

A simple Google of "Blue Thunder".
5 Years research........Google 0.22 seconds! :ugh:

Blue Thunder Online (http://airwing.uplink.com.au/bluethunder/index.cgi)
or
Blue Thunder - The Unofficial Website (http://www.gregdonner.org/blue_thunder/blue_thunder.html)

etc, etc, etc

IndyHelis
4th May 2010, 10:51
believe me when i said ive been researching for 5 years and have seen just about everything available on bt.... I hadnt seen that one before... at least since the last time i did a major search.... I was just suprised to see something new as you just have no clue how much time i have already invested in this project. But Thanks for posting them and the links, they help out a lot. There were 2 or 3 in there worth gold to a modeler like me... they just further add to my documentation book for when i enter scale compitition... :ok:

md 600 driver
4th May 2010, 17:24
pictures upoading now[may take time give it a hour to photobucket you have link i sent earlier

IndyHelis
4th May 2010, 21:13
ummmm what link?

md 600 driver
4th May 2010, 21:44
the link i sent you last week i will send link again by pm

IndyHelis
5th May 2010, 00:58
Thank you so much... this forum is awesome... all the information and photos everyone is sending is a huge help since the gazelle is so few and far in between here in the usa...

MICK6R4
6th Jun 2010, 22:00
HI does anyone know of a school in the uk that can do a rating on a g reg gazelle??:ok:

chopper.al
6th Jun 2010, 22:30
I'm pretty sure you can't go to a training school to get a type rating for the Gazelle. You have to own one, or at least part own, and learn to fly that one. This is because all Gazelles are on a permit to fly.

nigelh
6th Jun 2010, 22:48
Nonsense ...they are NOT permit to fly . Only ex Military ones are permit but all civil ones are not and can be used for public transport etc Al Gwilt is the best person and someone here will have his number ( i dont have my phone handy ) He is a v good instructor and knows gazelles v well and did my type rating .

longtime lurker
6th Jun 2010, 22:52
I believe there are some SA341G (with the Astazou IIIA engines) on the G register which have EASA Certificates of Airworthiness, and I think also a SA342J.

Perhaps a search of G-INFO will give you some leads on who owns them?

Flying Lawyer
6th Jun 2010, 22:52
MICK6R4

I also did my Gazelle conversion with Al Gwilt who lived up to the excellent reputation he's earned over many years as an FI and Examiner.
Contact info: agheli @<hidden> aol dot com
Highly recommended. :ok:


chopper.al

Not all Gazelles operate on Permits.

jetbox 21
7th Jun 2010, 08:11
MW Helicopters at Stapleford is a good place to start, they have being doing SA341/2 for a long time now, Speak to Ian Perry or Martin Wood