A Pilots worth?

[Stars Jewel]

It's been done to death. My go.

What is a Pilots real worth?? A LAME gets paid a great wage once finished his or her apprenticeship, the accounts person gets paid roughly the same as someone associated with another type of job.
The refuelers get paid a reasonable wage for a good days work.
The Air Traffic controllers get paid a nice return.
The Aircraft owners get a great rate for the hirer of their Aircraft.
The Caterers probably get more for a sandwich than any local takeaway shop.

So why do pilots, especially low time guys get shafted and basically anyone in G.A. You would think that with all the ingredients required to complete a flight the Pilots job would have to be the most valuable??? So why do they get shafted.

So here are some reasons I can think of

1. as a group the pilots lack power. You can blame the union all you like but at the end of the day are you an active member, did you vote for representation… do you raise concerns with them???

2. The Major Airlines and the regionals don’t actively set industry standards. They are Happy to take on any pilot regardless of how they got their hours. It doesn’t matter one little bit how the bottom of the food chain is going, they don’t care ( this includes all the guys that did it tough in years gone by, who now get a pay that they are worthy of. How people forget) at all because if things were fixed at the bottom than they would have to pay more at the top.

3. Employers use tactics like we will just replace you if you don’t like it with someone who will like it.

4. Everyone has to do it at one stage or another. (working below the Award)

5. ( this is my excuse) I didn’t know there was an award, I thought that this was normal practice.

6. If you do take a moral stand their will generally be no one standing beside you. In fact there will be more people hoping you’ll fall so they will move up the food chain. Pilots again happy to eat there own.


Employers will always try to make as much profit as they CAN therefore they try to pay Pilots as little as possible.. The facts are that they CAN abuse the rights of Pilots because we as a Group of Professionals allow it to happen year after year, because we as a group refuse to set our own standards. We justify this because we need the Hours or I just want my 500 hours and I’m out of here. But guess what Employers need Pilots, they cant fly them all them selves. We are worthy of a pay packet that allows us to feed our selves.

If we are not happy with our representatives in our work place, or the unions than lets vote for people who will give us a voice. That wont put up with Professionals working for free.

[404 Titan]

Stars Jewel

It’s purely supply and demand. There are way too many flying schools in Australia pumping out way too many aspiring new CPL’s. Some of the bullsh*t that is being fed to these new aspiring CPL’s by some of these unscrupulous flying schools is disgraceful. If only they knew the truth, some may choose a different profession and maybe there would be less desperate flying schools around. Supply and demand.

[locusthunter]

...The problem is that in the Airlines pilots salaries are also declining. Look at the QANTAS/Jetstar(/Impulse) situation.

Is it worth fighting your way through GA if there is no money at the other end?

Flying aircraft for a living has certainly lost its glamour since the "wonder years" of the 60s and 70s.

Who would go into this profession in the future?

Pilots are becoming a bit like artists- they do it for the love not the money.

[Chimbu chuckles]

The one about aircraft owners getting a great rate for their aircraft jumps out at me a bit.

You clearly have no concept of the true running costs of a typical GA single.

I can assure you that unless you're getting 40 hrs a month minimum you have little hope of covering all the costs and no hope if there is an allowance for the cost of capital (paying it off).

The vast majority of aircraft owners who lease their aircraft back to flying schools, aeroclubs or charter companies are subsidising the affore mentioned operations substantially.

That's why it's so common...the average flying school operation is flat out affording a couple of 30 yr old C172s...all the substantial aircraft, Cherokee 6s, C210s, C182RGs, Bonanzas etc are owned by romantic dreamers (like me) who then rent them back at the 'going rate' based on 'promises' of monthly utilisation that make the whole proposition seem workable. Charter companies are worse.."Yeay mate, she'll do at least 40hrs a month!" Can I have that in writing? "Er...um no...but she'll be right!!" The reality ends up being 15-20hrs a month...because the few aeroplanes he does 'own' get flogged and yours ends up filling the gaps as a standby.....maintenance in places like Darwin and Broome, where these aircraft mostly still operate is a minimum of 3 times more expensive than it is in places like BN, SY or ML.

A decent Bonanza, say 30 yrs old...about average for the breed..C210s being no different, costs $255/hr to run (based in the J curve) if it does 10hrs/mth...assuming you own it outright....if it's doing an average of 5hrs/mth (probably typical of many schools/aeroclubs) and you are paying it off then it is still costing you 100s of dollars an hour to own/fly.

The above figures are very accurate...many, if not most, owners don't put aside anything for the engine/prop overhaul, new paint job every 6-8 yrs, much if anything for new radios (how many hire aircraft have radios less than 20yrs old in them?), new interiors etc...that's why the Trader plane is full of aircraft with KX175s and a few hundred hrs engine life left...the 40-70K bill around the corner is just not affordable.

99% of hirers have not the first idea how heavily they are being subsidised....and most owners, initially, have no clue how little leasing back helps defray the costs of ownership....depending on the complexity of the aircraft it probably makes it more expensive.

Still wondering why new aircraft are as rare as rocking horse poop?

The cost of capital makes it completely unrealistic...and if you can afford a new aircraft you most assuredly don't need to put it on line. For aircraft that are flown less than 5-6 hundred hrs a year the capital cost would be several hundreds of dollars/hr alone...before you even thought about DOCs.

But I still love my 1970 Bonanza :uhoh: :{ :ugh: :} :ok:

[Azimuth]

It’s purely supply and demand. There are way too many flying schools in Australia pumping out way too many aspiring new CPL’s. Some of the bullsh*t that is being fed to these new aspiring CPL’s by some of these unscrupulous flying schools is disgraceful. If only they knew the truth, some may choose a different profession and maybe there would be less desperate flying schools around. Supply and demand.




Thats exactly it. If there were no CPLs at all being pumped out for the next 10 years, inevitably pilots would get paid more.:ok:

[flyby_kiwi]

. I didn’t know there was an award, I thought that this was normal practice. Well sadley it is the case here and therefore is normal practice.

Suppy and demand it is im afraid - As some may be aware, anyone over here with 400-1000hrs and some 'quatilty' GA time (B-CAT, turbine, or particuarlly having a couple of hundred IFR Multi hrs on ATO's) will find themselves with a bit of influence in GA. I can think of a couple of examples of people getting bond condtions removed, respectable (not just by GA standard) salaries paid, even fresh CPL's are getting jobs etc.
Still along way to go across the board but its on the repair now that people in this category are leaving for the regional scene.

Keep it UP! :ok:

[Maximus B]

And a 150 hour CPL is not even 10% of the way to being worth what a LAME is after a 4 year apprenticeship.

But, during the apprenticeship (first year) take home pay id about $180.

Thats fair, for them and 150 hour CPLs.

Max

[Cloud Cutter]

I don't think some of you give the average student pilot enough credit. Most people interested in a career as a pilot do a considerable amount of research before signing the dotted line.

Believe it or not, this is still an attractive career path. People are willing to endure the less than perfect pay and conditions offered in GA to get where they want to be. It's the same in many other industries. Find a trade apprentice and ask him how well he gets looked after - why would he put up with this? Same answer - the rewards are there if you're willing to do the hard yards. I'm not saying it's right, but you can't control the free market (although many have tried).

As flyby said, things are changing with the rapid airline hiring in NZ at present. This means one of two things for the GA pilot:

1. More money/better conditions, and/or
2. Lower hour/qualification requirements for progression

...Just read max's post - great minds....

[7gcbc]

A question of two parts so I'll try and be brief.

Supply and Demand as Kiwi states is always going to be with us, in the late '80s in the Uk if you had a PPL and you walked into a london Hotel you were hired by BA, similarily in my business (Oracle consulting - a pimp to my skillset if one were true about it) if a client wants me and there are no other 7gcgc's around, the rate goes up, likewise if there are thousands of 7gcbcs' sitting at home waiting for the call, I get paid peanuts, its a tight rope sometimes, but I'm used to it now..ish.

The important thing is that when the market takes a down turn, you are left with the people who are actually interested, and this will eventually show through in experience and longevity.



Rental of Owner aircraft. (chimbu)
You guys have no idea (maybe you do) of how lucky and privieged i feel being able to hire a complex single and scoot out to Mudgee or down/up the coast on a scenic with some mates, I mean you just cannot do that at a reasonable price anywhere else in the world (my basis of comparison is the UK and Eire).
and yes, I do treat them like they're my own, this Australia day, I shall be looping, rolling and hammerheading (badly) as I do every australian day. You can't buy that feeling.

Maximus B, to be honest, there are some people with 150 hours and tenfold exprience, and then as you say there are some people with 150 hours, it all depends on the person and the environment they "grew up" in. Its a bit of a generalisation.

[flyby_kiwi]

Interestingly enough when NZIS do thier valuations as to what job should be worth what sort of $$$ An ab-intio instructor comes out at around 66k per annum?
Not that NZIS are an organisiation I would judge all others by :eek: but it does seem about fair salary/wage gueestamate to me. When I start up a flying school...............:ouch:


:ok:

[bushy]

Some sensible posting here.
Some important points.
1. GA pilots get paid about the same as teachers. (I was married to one for 36 years, and usually she earned a little less than me.)
If you are not getting what you are really worth then ask yourself If why.
2. Flying GA aircraft in the outback is an honourable profession. GA pilots provide essential services to people who have feww alternatives. The roads have not been built yet, and there will never be enough money to build the thousands of km of road that are needed. Most newly qualified CPL's are out of their depth in GA.
3 Turbine powered aircraft are too big and costly for a lot of the necessary work. Only larger communities, semi government agencies, or protected organisations can afford to operate turbines. (how many PC12's TBM700's are operating commercially?)
4 GA has been flooded with new pilots for decades, and has been falsely considered only a training ground for airline pilots.(Our airlines are bludgers. They will not train their own pilots.)
So there are very few experienced GA pilots, and there is a high accident rate because of this.
5 When people treat GA with the respect it deserves, then safety will improve.

[Continental-520]

This is why I believe it is totally supply and demand, for those who are unconvinced:

How long would you wait on a Friday night for a taxi in any 'major' big smoke of a city?

In Perth, Darwin and Sydney, I can tell you 1st hand it's a bloody long time, if you get one at all.

When the lard ar$e taxi driver finally rocks up, he gets you to your destination and rushes off to the next job which has been waiting as long as you were. He's probably a nice bloke too, who's snowed under with work. (Every chance he may be an unemployed pilot!)

The regular cab driver doesn't try to cram more than 5 pax into his Falcon, does he? And he gets paid more than the average GA pilot who's operator forces him to overload a C206!

Why? Cause he doesn't need to. He can complain if he's forced to, and he will win, cause there aren't as many aspiring cab drivers waiting to take his place and overload cabs.

Then, at the GA aerodrome the next morning you wouldn't look far to find a hangar being swept by pilots, a 50 hourly being done by pilots, and an office full of pilots working for free.
Occasionally you may not see them cause they may be out flying, but not too often. If they complain, they're out, and next week you'll see the replacement who was pestering the week before last.

Does this illustrate it?

520.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Ahhh...as someone who drove taxis while learning to fly originally in the early 80s and who did a few months of it 18mths ago while between jet jobs I can tell you for a fact that a cabby is one of the most poorly paid jobs out there...60+hrs a week for about $500-600 gross...if you're very good at it and work hard...i.e. don't just sit on ranks reading a news paper and nattering to the other losers on the rank.

Cab companies are all short of drivers all the time...but the pay hasn't increased one cent in 25yrs.

You wait for hrs for a cab for a few hrs on 2, matbe 3 nigts a week...the rest of the week drivers are doing 12hr shifts for about $60 gross.

[Continental-520]

Well, I stand somewhat corrected.

At that rate, you'd think they'd charge per passenger in the cab and that the cabbies WOULD overload them, take shortcuts, cut corners and the like...,

Having said that, the last few cabbies I've spoken with don't seem altogether discontented with their pay or conditions...perhaps they don't know any different?

There's always someone worse off...


520

[Rabbit 1]

Drove Cabs too, all night shift in a capital city. Wasn't fun and downright dangerous. Did this for 2 yrs. I'd query the salary or hourly earnings that -520 states but his illustrated point is to me valid when commenting on this post. I don't recall my earnings when driving the drunks, pros, needle addicts etc to their chosen destination but the advent of cheaper flights with all it involves is a reasonable comparison these days since the introduction of LCC's. Crewing a Bus or a Boeing tech crew wise is the same as it ever was, but the load aft appears to be the same type of folk I once saw thumbing for a ride when I was driving the dust looking for my first flying job.

[Icarus2001]

All the more reason for reinforced cockpit doors.:ok:

[hernandez]

we get what the award gives us, no matter what we fly.......rortunately or unfortutunately we love what we do. I am presently in ga, and i understand the fact that what i am doing is an apprenticeship, everybody does the hard yards no matter what the profession, all we can do is enjoy the process, and continue along the road that we have chosen. The rewards are there whether they be monetary or pure job satisfaction.........At the end of the day we al love flying for one reason or another so enjoy it while you can, everybody is running there one race.......I know that i don't work a single day, i do whaat i love and thats the simple fact...........
Every person has there own agenda , goals and set of restrictions so do the best you can to be happy and satisfied with what it is you do because life is to short....

Had Enough.................

[Aunt Mavis]

Hello Dears

I asked my nephew Basil about this very subject some time ago when he was working as a lawn mower man after being a captain with a now defunct airline for several years....

He offered me this advice, and I quote....

"Aunt.....Don't ever ask me that again you old whore" (whatever that means - I assume it was complimentary?)

So.....I never did.

Basil eventually moved on to driving cabs and yes, initially he was exploited by ruthless operators but after 15 months in the industry he secured his own command (In taxi talk that means he bought one of the revered "Plates"). He hocked himself up to his little hazel coloured eyeballs to get that first plate, but that was indicative of how much he loved the job. It's been a few years now and young Basil now has 3 plates and doesn't drive at all - others do it for him and he get's a 70% cut - that's my boy !

I do hope my little contribution goes some way to answering your question deary.....but then again maybe it's just the rantings of a senile old lady....

anyway all the best for the future and I do hope your career aspirations are exceeded.

All my love

Mav