Ap 3003

[Matt Skrossa]

Just seen a shiny new copy of AP 3003 which has been distributed to all RAF personnel. Slightly confused by the title 'A Brief History of the Royal Air Force'. Surely any history of the RAF would by definition be brief.

[OKOC]

Matt-how my sides are aching with laughter at your witty and never-heard-before response. Get a life and leave us sideways walkers to enjoy our new AP in peace.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

AP3003 is a bag of w@nk, a waste of valuable resources and whoever came up with the idea should be taken out the back of some where and "neckshot' IMHO:}

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

Gave mine to a Royal Navy colleague - he seemed genuinely grateful. :bored:

[Cambridge Crash]

Has this been issued to all RAF personnel? Must get one.

ABIW - you must be the life and soul of the crew room with your curmudgeonly attitude. For one who appears to seek contintuity and is resistant to change, I though that reminding 'the young things these days' of the efforts and deeds of past generations of service personnel would be..errr..right up your street. If you don't like AP 3003, don't bother to read it. I suspect that you are beyond a career point where testing of such knowledge will be an issue!

'those who do NOT read the lessons of the past are condemned to repeat them'

CC

[ZH875]

CC, QR's are applicable to the whole of the RAF, yet everybody does not get a personal copy, so why isn't AP3003 issued to Station Libraries and OC PSF, that way, if you want to read it, you can, and keep the bean counters happy.

As ABIW implies, this money could have been better used elsewhere. Ask how many serving personnel who had the Twin CD thingy issued (I cannot even remember its name), if they looked at it more than once, and if they know where it is now. (Never mind how many factual errors it contained).

Money is tight, and all these glossy brochures and new fangled AP3003 style beasties we keep getting to throw in the bin is just a waste of Tax Payers money.

ABIW - neck shooting is not allowed, better take them outside and ask them to pick up some paper (if that was allowed!!).

[[email protected]]

I've not seen it yet but doubtless it bangs on about how important airpower is despite history showing that you cannot bomb an enemy into submission - to defeat him you need men on the ground. I suppose someone has to justify the money spent on Typhoon despite the fact that there has not been a need for air to air combat since the Korean War.

[Splash Coxswain]

Folks,

From CC's piece

'those who do read the lessons of the past are condemned to repeat them'

What he meant to say, I am sure, in his excellent post was:

'those who do NOT read the lessons of the past are condemned to repeat them'

This is about history and history not repeating itself! So it is regretful that we PPruners cannot keep up with recent history. This subject was done to death about 3 months ago, when another curmugeon happened to notice that AP3003 was on the shelves.

IMHO and IIRC it's these very curmugeons (the no-hopers) that this document will never reach. However, for those who value the Service that they joined and wish to learn more about it, they will undoubtedly benefit from AP3003 and its sister volumes 3000, 3001 and 3002! Also, they will be the very people that the RAF nurture in their careers in future. It's all about development of both the individual and the Service. Yes, the RAF may not have such a distinguished and long history as the RN or the Army but personnel at all ranks in both of those Services could tell you many facts about their histories because they have been educated in them, are proud of them and will gladly admit it.

So, to those RAF no hopers who snipe from the sidelines under the guise of a PPRune psuedonym, give it a rest - the book wasn't meant for you and your miserable existence. It was designed for people with an intellect.

So what scuppered your career ABIW?

[OKOC]

"....to those RAF no hopers who snipe from the sidelines under the guise of a PPRune psuedonym, give it a rest - the book wasn't meant for you and your miserable existence. It was designed for people with an intellect".

Ru avin' a larf yer nob.

[Lionel Lion]

Doesn't take long (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=66528&item=6507096808&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW)

And 15 available in Lincoln.........hmm

[Cambridge Crash]

Splash Cox'n

Thanks for proof reading my post, which I have now corrected! I couldn't agree with you more.

As I student I am researching a little-remembered campaign of over 50 years ago and I am constantly amazed by the many lessons learned during that campaign that have modern resonance, indeed modern applicability (integration of intelligence analsys and dissemination, development of joint military-civil doctrine, joint operational planning...).

I find it amazing that serving people in the RAF, such as ABIW (who claims to be serving), begrudge the expenditure of, say £50,000 (probably a lot less) so that younger people in the Service (ie those not too cynical) can contextualise their present - and equally vaild - experiences. In spite of what serving personnel may think, the RAF - the first properly consitituted air force in the world - is held in high esteem and regard globally. The RAF didn't magically appear on that pinnacle, it got there through the hard yakka of it's people. What harm is there in modern youth reading with spine-tingling respect the close-run events of 1940, or the round-the-clock effort (and sacrifice) to relieve Berlin - the heartland of Britain's former, and very recent, enemy - during the Berlin Airlift?

Moreover, Crab..., please correct me if I am wrong, but was there not air to air combat in the Falklands? Were there not many air-to-air confrontations (albeit without crews letting rip) between RAF AD and Soviet Strategic and Frontal Aviation assests up until the early 1990s? As a mere student, I would hate to think that I have got my facts wrong; similarly, how would allied ground forces have fared entering the Kosovo province without a considerable softening up air campaign beforehand? And yes, I know, what did the 78 day campaign achieve...well, my understanding is that it save a lot of allied - read British - lives because the VJ withdrew.

I also bet that ABIW is the sort of chap who would rip wooden sash windows out of a Georgian cottage and put some lovely uPVC ones in, on the grounds that they are modern. Completely out of context with the fabric of the building.

CC

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Dear Splash and Crash:rolleyes:

Not too sure what qualifies either of you to pass judgement in this extremely naive fashion, perhap you could enlighten me:rolleyes:

I have spent the last 30 years as an airman/jnco/snco and with 8 more to go who knows:ok: If you honestly believe that the issue of this AP on an individual basis will some how change the very fabric of today's RAF then you need look no further than this thread to have that illusion shattered:rolleyes:

"I find it amazing that serving people in the RAF, such as ABIW (who claims to be serving), begrudge the expenditure of, say £50,000 (probably a lot less)"

Have you any experiance at all of how the RAF buys things??? Serving and reserves all get one each........so you reckon they only cost about a quid each, not sure what they cost but I doubt they are that cheap :rolleyes:

Put one in every adj's office, library etc, that's fine but if I was a betting man I reckon that at least 30,000 of these comics are going to end up in file 13!...............30 years experiance tell me so:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Cambridge Crash]

As a naive student of politics and military matters I defer to ABIW's experience and sagely comment. I do find it sad that an attempt to engender a corporate identity, reinforce the traditions and history of the Service and to contextualise Air Power is so cynically received. What would £50k buy? As ABIW indicated en passant, very little. I am surprised because I had believed, though clearly erroneously, that the history and traditions of the Service were proudly borne on the backs of the Senior NCOs and Warrant Officers, who by their words and deeds set examples for the flow of gilded youth who join the the Service.

CC

[light_my_spey]

CC listen here, I applaud your on your unswaying devotion to the cause but listen, Ap3003 is yet another implement to describe how dandy-oh the whole thing was, how much has happened in the past, and what could be achieved. Quite frankly I think the powers above have realised this thing as part of a stealthy redundancy drive by making us realise in what the Air Force was, compared to the past, how much of a bag of **** it is now. ie time to get out. Seriously, read it properly, you will see what I mean. ps before you moan, people cannot get the correct shoes in stores right now never mind gucchi booklets telling us how fab we were. Seriously no disrespect CC but please dont be so blinkered.

[Archimedes]

despite the fact that there has not been a need for air to air combat since the Korean War.

Falklands, 1982?

Perhaps there is a need for it after all! ;)

[Cambridge Crash]

Whilst I accept from reading these threads that there appears to be a number of issues of morale and supply (amongst other gripes) in RAF, a leap of faith is needed to link the production of AP3003 with the much-heralded voluntary redundancy programme and the unavailability of shoes (a DLO/DCTA issue perhaps?). This is, indeed, a conspiracy of Machiavallian proportions.

Would you prefer that the RAF did not write and publicise its history and thoughts on Air Power? But then, my comments are probably invalid, as I am only a blinkered observer sitting in an ivory tower on the Cam...

[YellowBelly]

I think its worthwhile to encourage a deeper knowledge of our Service history. However, most of the gripes posted here are aimed at the cost of providing all serving members with a copy of this AP at a time when there is so much bean-counting and concerns about redundancy through-out the military. Surely a more cost effective and sensitive approach would have been to post a pdf download from the RAF website?

[Cambridge Crash]

YellowBelly

A good idea, indeed! Presumably it will be delivered late, over budget and in a format not readible on any machine produced after 1996?

But we could get the source codes from the contractor, couldn't we?

I could go on...

CC

[BEagle]

Presumably this document has been produced on soft, absorbent paper bound with a perforated edge - to guarantee at least one useful purpose for it?

Is this Boys Book of the RAF or whatever it's called full of historical facts - or smugly grinning senior officers droning awful 'management speak' bolleaux which is totally meaningless outside their peer group?

[Archimedes]

There's some 'encouraging' management speak in it, BEagle, but it is predominantly a history book.

[allan907]

So is it available in downloadable form so that us interested ex RAF types can have a squizz?

[Snakecharmer]

Would rather they spent the money on this attempt to recognize the Service's proud history than more CCS / Fitness Test / Equal opportunities bolleaux...

As the rest of us are required to pander to the Regt / Admin fraternity with CCS / Fitness Test etc, perhaps we should introduce an annual 'aviation knowledge quiz' to redress the balance!

[glum]

The foreword, by Sir Jock:

"This book is aimed primarily at those who have recently joined or are joining the Service..."

So why have they sent a copy to every single member - including those applying for redundancy, those who've PVR'd, those about to retire, those who may never join (ATC and UAS)?

So ignoring the fact that these books will have cost much more than a pound each, and that all serving, reserve, cadet and
UAS personnel are getting one which adds up to a lot more than 50,000 copies:

£50,000 would patch up some of the dreadfull accomodation our airmen live in.

£50,000 would build some great R&R facilities at several detachments.

£50,000 would upgrade a whole stations PC's to something above PII.

£50,000 would give tea and coffee to the guards on the gates who are not entitled to it.

Need I go on?

[Splash Coxswain]

ABIW,

No malice intended but a little more positivity on your part would better endear you to me! 30 years? Get some time in, old chap!

Actually, I have been involved in "how the RAF buys things" and at greater cost to the public purse than a few paperback books - billion pound projects to be precise (not Typhoon, MRA4 or even Nimrod AEW - before the flack rolls in), but hey ho! That was then and this is now. 40 to 50 thousand copies? A bulk order? Probably cost less than £1 each to produce through HMSO who published it.

Perhaps the answer to why AP3003 has been issued to all lies in the article on Page 6, Column 1 of the latest RAF News (21 Jan 05).

[The Swinging Monkey]

Splash,

ABIW is only voicing the views of the vast majority of people within the RAF. This is just yet another waste of desparately needed cash.
We are forever being told there is no money available, and yet we can suddenly find all of this money to waste on not-needed propaganda crap!
I only hope that some MP or some very senior officer has the balls to formaly complain at this disgraceful waste of money.
If a 'grunt' wasted this amount of money, he would be court marshalled and maybe even worse. When it's done by a very senior officer, he gets promoted or gets a gong out of it.

Sir Jock, you should have known better - shame on you Sir!

Kind regards to all
The Swinging Monkey

[Stupid Boy]

I have a difficult choice to make now. Do I put this spiffingly good AP in my new Royal Air Force rucksack or into my covert deployment rucksack. Perhaps if they issued us all with two copies then my problem would be solved! I think we need to establish a top-heavy working group to sort this problem out :ok:

[jindabyne]

crab@etc

Your view that there 'has not been any need for air combat since the Korean War' is nonsensical in several respects.

For example, the nature of the Cold War throughout the 50's, 60's, 70's and 80's was based on deterrence and preparedness - and the UK played a key role along with its NATO partners in this respect. Are you seriously implying that the RAF's operation of various types of AD aircraft throughout that period was wasteful?

[Stitchbitch]

I reckon that at least 30,000 of these comics are going to end up in file 13!.

You weren't wrong there, I spotted several in the FOD bins around my unit. Instead of sending us this great book and all those lovely but futile surveys on things of no importance to man nor beast that I seem to get every other week, why not indoctrinate the new recruits into the joys of service and its history when they join up, rather than by giving them more rubbish to fill there already buldging pigeon holes several years into their service life?

Ap3003 is a very informative and usefull guide to what has gone before,the importance of airpower and the RAF's key asset- it's people, however why do we need it today when we can't even afford to issue medals for the last Gulf conflict. :uhoh:

[allan907]

Don't chuck 'em in the FOD bin. Save at least one copy and send to:

PO Box 765
TOODYAY
Western Australia 6566

I'll gladly send the postage to any willing volunteer!

[airborne_artist]

StitchBitch

I've been told that the Spacecadets will be getting an issue, but if they really are being canned, then pick up a handfull and pop them into an envelope.

PM me and I can fetch them from the Guardroom and make sure they get to some keen young cadets, inc. daughter 2, who had her first AEF trip ten days ago!

[heights good]

Complete waste of time, there are about 30 copies sitting in my crewroom. Everybody knows they are there but nobody actually cares or wants them. Just as an aside there was the figure of £1.2m being thrown around by a few admin people for the production and distribution of the afore mention 50k copies.

Nuff said really

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Splash Old Chum:rolleyes:

Sorry for ruffling your feathers Sir but that's what us straight talking baldrick's tend to do:ok:

"Actually, I have been involved in "how the RAF buys things" and at greater cost to the public purse than a few paperback books - billion pound projects to be precise (not Typhoon, MRA4 or even Nimrod AEW - before the flack rolls in), but hey ho! That was then and this is now"

Perhaps you would care to enlighten us as to what marvels you have single handedly, procurred smartly no doubt, purchased on our behalf, as narrow sighted as I no doubt am, I cannot remember a single thing during my service to date which actually "did what it said on the can" :E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Splash Coxswain]

ABIW

Might "out" me if I were to do that, old chap.

But.......

It was before Smart procurement.

You've probably carried them but never dropped them!

They made it for Gulf 2 but ruined it for the Sadman.

They are air breathers but they never come home!

They were used in anger before their ISD!

Actually, a success story!

[foldingwings]

BEagle,

Shame on you for using the same gag as the last time this subject was raised on PPrune!

[Mad_Mark]

Heard a rumour today from some of the guys up here at ISK that you should not disgard the lovely shiney AP3003 as your knowledge and understanding of it will have to be commented upon in your AAR :uhoh: They even said that a Sqn with a 0 and a 2 in the number were told that there are to be 'checkers' on each sqn to quiz you on your knowledge :ooh:

Please, someone, tell me this is not so :suspect: Have our lords and masters totally lost the plot :confused:

MadMark!!! :mad:

[lineslime]

Do you really need to ask if our lords and masters have lost the plot? The fact that AP3003 was even published in such numbers should answer that question.
A clear example of spending gone wrong if you ask me, as glum pointed out there are far better things to spend on than lots of books that will never get read. I know, how about another change of No1 uniform?:=