Jetsgo YYC today...

[Canadian Beech]

Anyone in the know concerning anything today... no speculation, please!

[I am Birddog]

Aircraft registration is C-FRYH

[Canadian Beech]

The Credit card one?:hmm:

[Sailboat]

JetsGo hit the grass in Calgary and somehow pulled off a low evergy go around from it. I listened in on tower while it was all going on.

The fiasco snarled up the airport for a good two hours while myself and others chased their tails in holds.

No one hurt, only pissed off, and the aircraft need some work to the flaps, gear door and a few hydraulic lines.

[bafanguy]

sail,

By "...hit the grass..." do you mean landed short or got off the edge ?

[Dockjock]

Off the edge- they took out the taxiway sign at the intersection of 34/25.

[breguet]

Also, Thursday Jan. 20, in CYUL, in late afternoon, a Jetsgo MD-83 had an emergency and closed runway 24R for a while.

No idea of what the emer was for.

Anyone at Jetsgo cares to elaborate. Thanks.

[lead zeppelin]

-----------------------------------------Occurrence 10----------------------------------------

Occurrence No. : A05W0010 Occurrence Type: INCIDENT REPORTABLE
Class : BEING ASSESSED Reportable Type: E. FAILURE TO REMAIN
Date : 20-01-2005 Time : 19:56 MST
Region of Responsibility : WESTERN
Location : CYYC CALGARY INTL, ALBERTA


Aircraft Information:

Registration : C-FRYH Operator : JETSGO
Manufacturer : MCDONNELL DOUGLAS Operator Type: COMMERCIAL
Model : DC-9-80 CARs Info: 705 - AIRLINER
Injuries: Fatal : 0 Serious : 0 Minor : 0 None : 0 Unknown : 0


Occurrence Summary :

A05W0010: The Jetsgo Douglas DC-9-83, C-FRYH, was operating as flight JGO191 from Toronto, ON to Calgary, AB. During the touchdown on runway 34 in Calgary, the aircraft departed the runway surface to the west and traveled for approximately 1800 feet beside the runway before becoming airborne. The aircraft struck a runway hold sign during the excursion resulting in some damage to the flaps and landing gear. The extent of damage to the aircraft is unknown at this time. The aircraft returned for a successful second landing. There were no injuries to passengers or flight crew. The TSB has dispatched two regional investigators to the site. The weather at the time of the accident was as follows: METAR CYYC 210300Z 04007KT 1/2SM FZFG OVC004 M04/M06 A2974 RMK FG6ST2 RVR RWY34 1400 FT SLP123=
----

[rotornut]

How long before TC suspends their OC?

[McDoo the Irish Navigator]

Lead Zeppelin;

Can you tell me where you pasted the occurance report from?
I've searched around to no avail.

Thanks.

[Yo767]

I've always said that money doesnt buy experience nor competence, even 30K.

[c150driver]

...un-freakin-believable!:confused: :confused: :confused:

[20driver]

I suspect the OC will be suspended the day after the crash - usually is. I really hate to get on anyone, I'm sure there they are all good people doing their best - but this operation looks like Valuejet all over again - (Even the type of plane!!!)

My wife flew them once and never again - said the condition of the plane scared her - and she is not a pilot!!

On a serious note - why would the pilot go round - did he land so long that he was out of braking room? Unless there was sure disaster ahead I would have thought the safe move was to stay on the ground.

Does not look good for Canadian travellers -

[rotornut]

Apparently the OC is still in effect. I must say, having flown with them twice, that the staff certainly did their best. But the planes were full of snags causing serious delays.

[I am Birddog]

:ok:
"The light of truth will always expose the shadows of lies of dishonest men" -W.Churchill

Here's the National Post article:

Jet slides off runway, hits sign: Calgary emergency: 78 passengers on plane as it tears along grass verge

NATIONAL POST
01/25/2005

Federal investigators are trying to determine why a Jetsgo flight with 78 passengers aboard suddenly veered off the runway at Calgary airport last week, trundled along the grass verge, then took off again from the turf.

As it tore 1,600 feet along the frozen ground, the McDonnell Douglas MD83 ran over a sign, apparently damaging flaps, landing gear doors and hydraulics, according to an official report on the incident.

The crew lifted off from the grass after reporting a "fuel emergency," but circled around and landed again safely. About 30 other aircraft were left in holding patterns and emergency vehicles dispatched as the drama unfolded.

Investigators are not saying what caused the mishap, but the most likely culprit would appear to be the weather, said Tom MacMillan, a Jetsgo spokesman.

"The combination of ice fog, low ceiling, low visibility and no centre lights on the runway ... would have come together to make the landing that much more problematic or challenging," he said.

Mr. MacMillan stressed that the fuel emergency only meant that if the plane had been forced to wait in queue behind other flights for its second landing, it would not have had enough fuel to be diverted to another airport, should Calgary be closed.

But one experienced airline pilot said the incident could have ended much more hazardously, especially given the fuel situation and harm inflicted to the jet's airframe and hydraulic lines.

"Had they kept the aircraft on the ground, where would it have ended up?" said the pilot, who asked not to be named. "In what heap, in what snow bank?"

The Transportation Safety Board is investigating the incident and plans to analyze both the cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder at its Ottawa office, said John Cottreau, a spokesman for the agency. He could not say when a report would be issued.

"We investigate when we think there are lessons to be learned," said Mr. Cottreau.

The incident began just before 8 p.m. Calgary time last Thursday, as Flight 191 from Toronto touched down on Runway 34, according to a report on Transport Canada's Civil Aviation Daily Occurrence Reporting System (CADORS), obtained by the National Post.

Crew members reported they felt the aircraft start to slide off the runway, so elected to do a missed approach, meaning they would lift off and try another landing, said the report. The crew told the control tower they had to get back to ground as soon as possible because of what they called a "fuel emergency."

The plane landed safely again at 8:10 p.m., with no injuries reported.

"It was later reported by TSB that the entire aircraft departed the runway during the landing sequences and the go-around was initiated from the grass beside the runway surface," said the CADORS report.

"There is damage to the flaps, gear doors and possibly some hydraulic lines."

Some airlines require their crew to use auto-land in conditions such as those at Calgary, where visibility was reduced to 1,400 feet, said the commercial pilot.

It is possible that, as the Jetsgo flight broke out of the clouds, the pilots were hand flying, thought incorrectly that there were lights embedded down the centre of the runway and lined up the plane accordingly. If so, they would have been looking at lights that were actually along the side of the runway. As they aligned the craft, it would have been half on and half off the runway, said the pilot.

Mr. MacMillan, the Jetsgo spokesman, said the arrival at Calgary initially seemed quite normal.

But "the captain at the time said he felt something abnormal on landing and so pulled up again."

[Canadian Beech]

...

[I am Birddog]

"The light of truth will always expose the shadow of lies of dishonest men" -W.Churchill


Thank you all for reading.

Please spread the word.

[bcflyer]

Hmmm think for a sec before commenting on the whole fuel emergency thing. Lets say they had flown from YYZ-YYC with YEG as an alternate. Fight slightly higher than forecast winds enroute then do an approach. Obviously they damaged the plane on the miss and would not have wanted to go to YEG or even if they had, the fuel burn would have been much higher due to possibly having to leave the gear down or the flaps down. Add all this up and you could easily be a big tight on gas.
Canadian Beech, you obviously have no experience with no alternate IFR or you wouldn't have made that comment. To go no alternate IFR you need weather mins much higher than the YYC weather was.
If you chose to not let your family fly on any airline that has had an incident, then I guess after the accident at YFC, the accident in YEG and the incident involving a 737 taking off with no flaps, you don't have too many choices left for air travel in Canada.

[mutt]

bcflyer

I'm glad that someone understand the technicalities of minimum fuel requirements...... :):)


Mutt.

[c150driver]

Why declare a fuel emergency?? Why not just declare a "we just ploughed through 1600' of dirt, edge lights and taxi signs" emergency?:ugh:

I hope TC finally wises up and shuts these clowns down before they really hurt or kill someone!

[faireydelta]

Nice post bcflyer.
Now, would all the dopes that hadn't thought of these extenuating circumstances (should you really fly a damaged airplane 30-40mins, gear down, to your alternate?-not unless you REALLY had to!) while sitting in front of their computers, calmly sipping coffee and scratching their balls, PLEASE ADMIT they're NOT better than the guy who CORRECTLY assessed his options while being somewhat engaged, at the same time, in wrestling this limping beast back into the air?
I am always sickened by the way we pilots (assuming we make up a fair porportion of posters here) will pounce on one of our own when something like this happens...always ready to believe the worst and start condemning before the facts are in.
Of course, I suspect there wouldn't be quite the same feeding frenzy if some other airline had been involved. Basically, some here think nothing of bashing this pilot only because it serves their oft-stated cause of further blackening the particular airline that employs him. Ol' Bird Brain, fer'instance, sounds so beside himself with glee, that he'd have probably had an out of body experience had this incident concluded with the A/C rolling itself into a heap. Disgusting.
In this pilot's defence, I will say that if it could happen to him, it could certainly happen to alot of other folk here, including myself. This gentleman is not a newbie (I work with him) and is probably still too busy working his way through what happened to be reading this or other forums, but I wish him a speedy return to the line and would have him know that I'd gladly put my family on his airplane anyday!

[jonny dangerous]

bcflyer, mutt, and faireydelta: hear, hear! I was going to post a reply to the bird guy but thought it would fall on deaf, ignorant ears. I am just hoping it wasn't a friend from Royal days, but even so, let's all just wait for the report before making uninformed statements...



JD

[JeePilot]

Gear was retracted again on the missed, can't comment on the flaps though. Apparently there was heavy damage to the flaps between the #2 and the fuselage from the sign. Plane was ferryed with little or no repair to YWG then onto YYZ for repair.

As for the fuel emergency, from what I hear it was delcared due to the fact that if calgary closed due to wx they would not have enough fuel to divert to YEG if they were forced to hold behind several other a/c waiting to get in that night.

[Trader]

Some of you guys are real morons!!!!!!! You mean AC, WJ etc never had any incidents? Give me a break--your speculation is nothing nore than bashing.

Ia m Birddog and C150---your views are well known.

For everyone's benefit--the Captain of that flight is a senior check Captain, with extensive widebody experience and, having flown with him, I can tell you he is extremely competent.

So your claim that this porves JGO is dangerous and inexperienced goes right out the window.

[Canadian Beech]

I stand corrected... and apologise for speaking out of turn, especially since I didn't know all the info.:ouch:

[I am Birddog]

FaireyDelta wrote:
Of course, I suspect there wouldn't be quite the same feeding frenzy if some other airline had been involved. Basically, some here think nothing of bashing this pilot only because it serves their oft-stated cause of further blackening the particular airline that employs him. Ol' Bird Brain, fer'instance, sounds so beside himself with glee, that he'd have probably had an out of body experience had this incident concluded with the A/C rolling itself into a heap. Disgusting.



Touché.

Your assumptions about how I would feel if anyone got hurt is just as guilty as the perception that I arrived to any conclusion about this incident.

I want no one hurt anyone. I have had friends die in aviation and I wish no one to go through that sorrow.

My (as well as many others) issues are not really with pilots. I wish no one unemployed. Only pilots seem to reply to my posts...

I have 2 friends that work for your company and both are very concerned. They are not the same people and have been under a lot of strain with the work schedule. You know of what I speak of...perhaps this may change the working conditions for you folks. Who knows...however I do know that sites like this one where opinions are exchanged whether they are thought provoking or not, seems to be generating discussion in the flight deck as I have heard some feed back. You nor I won’t change the industry…but someone has to try…whether you approve of my opinion or not or even a little.

Fly safe

[c150driver]

Trader, you can call me a moron...I really don't care:}

...If my posts seem to bash Jetsgo pilots, I appologize...my beef is with Jetsgo as a company...I feel that they are just not safe. I know pilots at Jetsgo...most of them are good guys and good pilots, but there are some that are just too inexperienced to hold left seat on the MD...the pilot pool shrinks real quick when you charge a $30000 entrance fee.

I realize that other companies have had incidents...I just think that Jetsgo has had MORE than their fair share and it is only by some stroke of luck that some of these incidents have not become accidents. Many of you will deny that there has been alot of incidents, but I know of many things that would definitely steer the flying public away from Jetsgo. I guess these incidents just go un-noticed because they happen to have a happy ending.
Things like dropping out of coffin corner and losing 5000', flying with damaged/unsafe reversers, shutting down IRU's in flight in order to "reset" a problem (luckily it was VFR), smoke in the cabin(followed by passengers walking from the runway to the terminal...not a short walk in winter) and the list goes on...

Go ahead and bash me...I'm just stating my opinion...you can believe what you want, but I'll definitely pay extra to avoid flying on Jetsgo.

There is a reason for the popularity of the website www.jetsgosucks.com

Thanks for reading my rant...

[meaw]

BC Flyier,


Although you are correct in stating that everyone in Canada has had incidents I think the comparison is flawed.........You cannot compare the numbers of Jetsgo to AC or WJ.

Jetsgo has been around just over a couple of years and operates a mere fraction of the daily departures of AC with only a fraction of the fleet of AC and for 60 some odd years less as well.So yes go ahead and mention YFC and really that is OK but the reality is that if you could make a percentage of incidents per departure over time Jetsgo has some issues.

I want to point out that I have nothing against the pilots there but I think that even the best pilot in the industry when working for a third level carrier is in danger.

I have spent years in the small third level airlines flying up north with all the risks involved that you all know.But when you have a bunch of people who want to run that kind of operation with MD83's and F100 you know what the risks are......

The warning signs are too frequent and regular and I hope someone at TC will do something about it (although I wouldn't put money on it).

I wish all you guys well and remember to stay safe nad that when they make you fly transcon with a full load in an MD83 with crap weather or a broken airplane, you can always find another job but not another license or god forbid another life.

[Kakpipe Cosmonaut]

I would be interested to find out if fatigue has any influnce in this incident. Canada has some of the most 'generous' FTLs in the world, and I am sure any low cost operator would use that to a maximum.
I hear that TC are now going to restrict lorry drivers to a maximum 14 hour day soon, because of the addition effect of continuous vibrations has on reaction times and decision-making.

[ajet32]

I don't know the individuals involved well, but by their reputation the experience in that cockpit is likely well in excess of many of the all knowing posters. I like to remember something my first Captain said as a young DC3 copilot( thats what we were called).
We had just witnessed another DC3 slide off the side of a greasy northern airstrip covered in snow ice etc in equally poor weather. I recall him saying sheit but there for the grace of god go I. Its rather like the saying regarding landing with the gear still up. There are two kinds of pilots those that have and those that still might. Don't judge the actions of professionals" yes they are very PROFESSIONAL" without all the facts, they made a split second decision that could very well ahve saved everyone on that aircraft. Well done gentlemen.

[VRThomas]

Is it possible to discuss what we think might have happend without being accused of passing judgement?

VRT:uhoh:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Unfortunately when discussing these issues where a crew and an airplane came very close to disaster it is passing judgement in a sense....

...until all the facts are made public after a complete investigation my suggestion would be to imagine how you would feel if you were one of that crew reading comments based on ignorance of all the facts.

Chuck E.

[Trader]

C150, actually I did not call you a moron--I said some of the posters were moran. In fact, I should qualify that by saying some POSTS are moronic--attack the arguement NOT the poster!

Anyway, some of the incidents you allude to did not happen, specificaly the drop of 5000'. A mistake was made with regard to IRU's and my bet is those happen occasionally at ANY company. Smoke in the cabin---actually turned out to be fire supression equipment and if the pax walked to the terminal it was because the GTAA did not provide buses---all buses operated by the GTAA and the airlines use those!

All is not rosy but nor is it as bad as and unsafe as many lead others to believe.

[Rosbif]

I am informed by two independant sources who have nothing to gain by spreading malicious rumor that the "coffin drop" did happen. Maybe not 5000', but it did happen.
c150 seems to be very well informed. That incident seems to a result of inexperience, though the person concerned is an excellent pilot. The more recent incident is (in my opinion)probably more related to fatigue. Any of us could do this if we were tired enough.
When is TC going to put realistic duty time regs. into effect.
Someone is going to get hurt.

[rotornut]

Please excuse my ignorance as I've only flown choppers commercially but what is a "coffin drop"?

[Ralph Cramden]

I have been following this thread for a week and cannot believe what I am reading!
The fact that the pilot ran off the runway into the weeds is not the issue here. Instances of jet transport aircraft running off the runway are not a rare occurrence unfortunately. What is rare is that a so-called professional pilot would elect to attempt a takeoff in a jet filled with pax while bouncing across the tundra. It is absolute lunacy!
The pilot had no idea the aircraft was even CAPABLE of flight at that point. The aircraft had landed, the engines were at idle, energy was bleeding off. If anyone out there can propose any scenario where it would be preferable to add great gobs of energy with the faint hope of accelerating to takeoff speed before the aircraft breaks up, rather than doing what you can to stop; I would very much like to hear it.
The fact that there are not 70+ people dead is a miracle.

[Trader]

Ralphy, who says the power was at idle and the speed bleeding off???? NO ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He could easily have been in the go around when he exited the pavement. You, me and everyone else still have no idea as to what transpired so all this arm chair quarterbacking should shut up until the investigators have completed their work.

[c150driver]

Trader...I thought that this was the Professional Pilots "RUMOUR" Network...not the Professional Pilots "wait until you get all the facts and then make a post after taking into account all the pertinant information" Network...:}

[lead zeppelin]

C-150, you are right.

It is the "Rumour Network", and not the "Wild Assumption Network".

Let's get the facts.

[Lost in Saigon]

Hey, Lead Zep,

NO..... C150 is NOT right.

Read his post again.

He implies that because this is a "Rumour" network it is OK to make wild assumptions.......

If not he suggests we should change the name to the "Wait until you get all the facts and then make a post after taking into account all the pertinant information" Network.......

I have to admit that this incident does look bad for the pilots in question, but why not wait until all the facts are known before judging them.

[extreme P]

www.jetthrust.com has a picture of the ruts left by the MD83. I think you have to register to view the forums. If you are interetsed it's under Aviation Photograhy.

[Dockjock]

I would hardly call any pilots that would pay $30K up front for the burden of working for any company "one of us", or anything I would want to be associated with. Boys- get your jet time, get the eff out and we hope we never see you in Canada again because you're making it that much more difficult for the rest of us. Never seen a bigger bunch of "I'm alright Jack's" in my life.

[Trader]

I had an interesting talk with a TC inspector today.

But first, this thread is meant for all those WJ types that can't wait or resist bashing Jetsgo, especially about so called safety issues.

The talk revolved around reportabe incidents and the first thing I noted was the comment that, over the last 2 years, WJ has had more reportable incidents than Jetsgo, all of which are public record.

So lets take a look:

1. 2 hours after the Jetsgo incident in YYC a WJ 700 landed and scraped a flap!!!!

2. Several months ago a WJ flight STALLED after departure after the autopilot had a docile trip off without the crew noticing.

3. WJ was investigated for landing in Saskatoon in zero/zero weather when the tower was closed.

4. At least 3 incidents of crews, in the 200, forgetting to turn packs on after dep resulting in the 'rubber jungle'.

The comments also included the observations that the below landing limits landings and questionable practices with regard to deice procedures have been an issue that TC are aware of and watching.

So, for those WJers who seem to delight in trashing Jetsgo (and only those WJers since the ones I know personally are above that) you might want to consider looking inhouse before casting stones elsewhere.

(C150---no report anywhere of a 'coffin drop' at Jetsgo--blatant lies)

[Quebecer]

Dockjock,

You can see it anyway you'd like, but these are the facts: You're lending money to the company so that they know you will be around for two years. In the course of those two years the company pays back the loan, to you, every month.

After two years + one day, you have got all that 30k back plus interest. If you were lucky enough to have that kind of money in hand and did not have to go to a bank, then you make 7% interest yearly, non-taxable.

Sounds better than what Westjet stock did last year... which could help one understand, from your location, the nature of your post and your frustration, thanks to the competition from the east.

But that would be speculating and very unprofessional, just like being very opiniated on an incident another company had without knowing the facts, or writing a nasty report discrediting the competition and their financial state, again, without knowing the facts.

Have you got the "Clive Beddoe" syndrome too? Discredit others in order to look better?

[gumbi]

Hey! Where were you all when it was time to defend the crew of TS236???

Pilots really are their worst own enemies!!!

[Dockjock]

How about, "Those who stand for nothing fall for anything" -Alexander Hamilton

[Azure]

Trader

A couple of your 'rumours' have been dispelled over on another forum.

http://forum.aeforum.net/index.php?showtopic=120268

[WJman]

Nothing there,you need to log in, can you cut and paste for us. thanks

[Azure]

A couple of rebuttals:

Point #4

It happened once and it has been used as a training tool to teach crews the perils of bleeds off takeoffs. As far as the other incidents, I can't comment since I don't know 100% whether or not they occured.

Point #2

As for the 700 that 'stalled', it didn't. The airspeed went low, the Flight Data Monitoring caught it and the crew reported it. The crew was pulled, rechecked, and the training department took it on the chin and added procedures. Cathay had the same thing happen to them.

Point #1

All of the 700's were operational the Saturday after this incident so I doubt that this is true.

Absolutly Impossible to scrape the flaps without engine touching first.....even checked with mx no such incident.

[ea306]

I know the captain.

Very experienced. AND very professional.

I would like to think that most of us here consider ourselves professionals also.

Let's just wait for the reports...

[Trader]

Azure, you may very well be right. I just related some comments made to me adn either he got em wrong (partially) or I misheard. But the gist of all of them, save the flap scrape, are true.

These are nor unusual and they don't make WJ a dangerous company---this happens to everyone, it is part of the industry. Crap happens.

The point was simply to shove it back at the minority of WJ guys who like to shovel it the other way. I know they're a minority but sometimes you can't sit back and let them get away with it.

[Willie Everlearn]

trader

I'd like to add my comments to your posting. For all we know you could have been talking to the man in the moon. But, never mind.

You say;

1. 2 hours after the Jetsgo incident in YYC a WJ 700 landed and scraped a flap!!!!

So, that's all you got? What happened? x-wind? control problem? Surely there's a story there or it wouldn't be a point for discussion.

2. Several months ago a WJ flight STALLED after departure after the autopilot had a docile trip off without the crew noticing.

Not possible. The 700 (and most airliners make a noise when they trip off. Hard or Soft) The crew would be well aware well in advance of a stick shaker notification.

3. WJ was investigated for landing in Saskatoon in zero/zero weather when the tower was closed.

P1 calls landing or go-around at minimums. Not the tower. Whether it is open or closed. Read the regs.

4. At least 3 incidents of crews, in the 200, forgetting to turn packs on after dep resulting in the 'rubber jungle'.

Is that known to be dangerous, or forgetful?

My suggestion, for what it's worth, and I admire your intention to point out we're all not as perfect as some would like to think or believe us to be but, surely you can come up with something juicier than heresay?

[tiermonde]

All other factors put aside, what can one think of safety at an airline who does not hire the most qualified pilots out of the applicants but those, often less qualified and experienced, who accept to pay the 30K ?
One cannot blame the unemployed or low time pilots who accept to pay the money but I think legislation should forbid such a practice on the basis of safety.
At least if they were made to sign a bond like many airlines do, but that is not what happens. They are made to take out a loan in their name, hand the money over to Jetsgo who begins to re-imburse after 6 months and does so over a period of 18 months. The difference for the applicant is that instead of only loosing his money if he defaults on his bond, he also risks loosing it if Jetsgo goes under before 24 months of his hire.
I heard that recently several Jetsgo grounschools had been cancelled because applicants who had decided to pay the 30K had had second thoughts. In other cases, groundschools had half the applicants that were planned, for the same reason. Handing 30K to Jetsgo today is a risk, but I guess for a turborpop F/O, its a shortcut to build medium jet time. How many experienced jet pilots have joined Jetsgo recently ? What is the average Jetsgo crew experience level versus other airlines? I suspect its much lower.

[Willie Everlearn]

tiermonde

Are pilots, no matter what their level of experience, not allowed to invest their money as they choose? Do you advocate hiding behind legislation to improve safety?
Remember. We don't have the facts on this or any other incident at JGO, WJ, ACJ or AC.
Let's be honest, some who accept the JGO offer mightn't be able to come up with the cash by the time they show up for their training and have to cancel at the last minute. Shouldn't surprise anyone.
Sounds to me like the risk management/investment goes both ways. Doesn't it?

Someone recently commented that when you charge your pilots a training fee up front, you end up with rich pilots NOT experienced and qualified pilots. Well, I don't think so. Any modest research of the Canadian pilot employment picture at present will show you there isn't much on the menu and of those presently seeking pilots, it's a crap shoot as to who will survive and who won't. Some future that is!

Measures are now in place at JGO to sim eval candidates. Which is a great idea and to their credit. Maybe the 'marginal' rich ones can be weeded out, who knows? But at least they are getting on with what they need to as far as running an airline and trying to survive on scraps.

The guys I know at Jetsgo are getting a 7% return on a financial investment in themselves. Pretty good return by any financial "risk" measurement, I'd say.

If you want to cry "Safety First" then I suggest you consider this. The newer, more sophisticated aircraft will require a specific level of experience and as the world wide pilot experience level descends, accident/incident statistics will rise. That's not news by the way, it's where we're headed. Because the mentality in Canada is that you need an ATPL and 3-4000 hours just to fly a Navajo. Based on the personnel licencing I see, I understand why.

Good luck with your flying.
...and cheers.

[bcflyer]

No Jetsgo groundschools have been cancelled. There have been a few with less than the planned amount of pilots but none have been cancelled. As for the experience level, there are plenty of guys with alot of prior jet experience, some of it on widebody A/C. The rest of the guys come from the same pool that Westjet, Skyservice, Transat and Air Canada hire from. Either the regional airlines or guys coming off 1900's, metro's etc. I'm not sure why you automatically assume that the level of pilot is lower at one airline than another.