Merlin

[Tourist]

So, who wants to tell us all the Merlin Gossip then?............:E

[hyd3failure]

Good thread....lets get this one going....

[junglie-driver]

He was an old bearded wizard that hung around with smelly Pingers!!!

[Tourist]

Jungly-Driver.

If I could be @rsed, I would think up sonething witty as a reply.

instead I will fall back upon emergency banter.

F**k off big nose!

[junglie-driver]

Typical Pinger S.O.P, can't do anything without an observer! Give him/her a call later and get back when you're allowed to. ;)


P.S My nose only looks big from the left side!

[Tourist]

Unlike your @rse..........

http://pages.prodigy.net/indianahawkeye/newpage20/12.gif

[Flypro]

Children children.....let us get back to the thread.
How about a reason why the RN's big grey hope could not deploy for tsunami relief ops....or is it that its just stuff all use in a stuation like this?:zzz:

[jayteeto]

Of course it is of use in this type of situation! I have seen the TV advert recruiting RN medics and it managed then ;)

[crossbow]

so, its clear that there are not many supporters of Merlin on this thread. So does anyone think it would be a good idea to buy another 30 of them?

[Stitchbitch]

How about Yes? And can you paint them yellow instead of green this time??? :E
As this is a rumour network have the green ones been grounded again 'cause I heard that from a cleaner at kia :\

[crossbow]

Yellow? are you bonkers? Are you suggesting that we use Merlin for SAR?

Apart from the size of them, surely an unstable servicability record would be sufficient evidence NOT to do that

[Tourist]

I was actually hoping for some rather more topical, current gossip, but nobody seems to want to spill the beans

[Neil Porter]

Green ones kicking around Abingdon alot recently training so must be ok...for now.

[M609]

A green one passed by my window 30 minutes ago, very much airborne! :)

[crossbow]

and I spotted a yellow one Yesterday afternoon.

[Flypro]

......and there's shed loads of 'em - mostly in sheds! - in Cornwall!!:hmm:

[ZH844]

Everything is ok in Merlin land as far as we are concerned!

Hear the same old bulls**t from those who have nothing to do with them - seems most have posted on this thread!

:ok:

[WE Branch Fanatic]

But surely......

Merlin (HM1) is flying ops, and deploying at sea - aboard carriers, RFAs, and since 829 NAS has been reformed, Type 23 Frigates.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

From here. (http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/148.html)

In order to succeed in either the MarStrike or LitM role, the CVS will need to operate effectively within the littoral environment (defined as coastal sea areas and that portion of the land, which is susceptible to influence or support from the sea). To achieve this, sea lines of communication between support vessels and the battle area/theatre of operation need to be protected at all times. Integrated with other task group units, aircraft, such as the Merlin HM Mk1 and Sea King ASaC Mk7, will be used to achieve the sea control (or freedom of action to use the sea for our own purpose) necessary to assure littoral access.

Errr...........think they do sometimes.

[sweep complete]

From what I hear all is not rosy in Merlin land, but not as bad as some will try to make out on here. This is a rumour network so someone must have some gen buzzes - lets not have (yet) another slag off Merlin thread!!

p.s. I thought the reason they weren't sent to help in Tsunami relief was the Indonesian government turning down our help.

[smithoag]

green'uns were grounded temporarily just after New Year,but back in the air now

[Stitchbitch]

Everything is ok in Merlin land as far as we are concerned!

Glad to hear it :) Does that mean the Merlin will be heading east soon? :rolleyes:

[Bismark]

The Doods down in Kernow tell me they have beasts aboard a T23 and some (4?) in a stores thingy as part of the group deployment eastwards - led by a CVS?

[Tourist]

Ok, so there is no truth in the buzz I heard that the IPT has announced that they can only support a maximum of 8 Merlin, ie 4 front line and 4 for training, and that the rest would be stored till further notice with merlin personel being scattered around the rest of the navy?:hmm:

[crossbow]

what about the rumour that the newly formed 829 Sqn is going to be amalgamated with 820 Sqn as a single Merlin Sqn.?

[Duncan Bucket]

Tourist

I think you've answered your original question

"So, who wants to tell us all the Merlin Gossip then?............"

It looks like you do!

Sweep complete - how refreshing to hear someone else is fed up of the b@ll@x that usually pervades this sort of thread. I thought the military forum was going to be renamed "we all hate merlins"

[sweep complete]

Glad to hear it Does that mean the Merlin will be heading east soon?

stitchbitch - they (820 Sqn) left last weekend and are curently heading east...... that answer your question????

:p

[Stitchbitch]

stitchbitch - they (820 Sqn) left last weekend and are curently heading east...... that answer your question????

Sorry SC, I meant the 'green ones' :ok:

[Navaleye]

The RN intends to re-role the CVS into mini strike carriers operating increased numbers of GR7/9s. Its more than likely that the Merlins will be hived off to RFAs on a permanent basis. Its slighlty ironic that a platform originally intended to carry helos ousted from the last generation of attack carriers is undergoing the same experience itself.

[hyd3failure]

Lets face it. At the end of the day this aircraft has been the biggest waste of money I have ever seen. The Merlin is a disgrace and no amount of defending it will convince me of its worth. It cost an absolute fortune and since delivery it has sat in the hangar and rotted away unservicable. I'd hate to know how many hours we have flown on the beast since delivery but I bet its a real shocker. The procurement peope should hang their heads in shame at this white elephant. We should find out who is to blame for this blatant and absolutely disgusting waste of money and name and shame them.
I heard a rumour yesterday that to return the aircraft to full flying servicability and at the same build standard will cost the tax payer in IRO £840 Million. And thats on top of the £45 million EACH they cost. A disgrace, an absolute disgrace.

[ZH844]

hyd3failure,

" It cost an absolute fortune and since delivery it has sat in the hangar and rotted away unservicable."

If it has had the bad entry into service and 'rotted away unservicable' how come I fly them on a regular basis....?

Me thinks you talk from your a**e!!

:p

[Tourist]

ZH844
Please tell me that westlands are paying you to spout this cr@p
When you say that you fly them on a regular basis, do you mean once a month? I suppose thats regular..........
You just have to talk to anyone at Culdrose to know that things are coming to breaking point.:rolleyes:

[hyd3failure]

Go on then ZH844....lay yr cards out. How long have you been flying Merlin and how many hours do you have? How many hours a month do you get?

[Si Clik]

I am of course only coming on this thread by invitation.

Most in the RN know who I am and if hyd3failure had an ounce of true Merlin knowledge he would realise that his posts are most definitely ignorant.

I have 500 hours on Merlin many of which in testing it to the limit around the world. It is by far and away the BEST helicopter we have in Service at present taken as a package.

I have tested both the Sea King and Merlin to the deck and the Merlin is far superior. Whilst some may criticise particular area of the flight envelope or clearance much of this has been brought on by the modern safety first culture that we now live in. Legacy aircraft have many get out clauses - new one's do not. Hence the Chinnook Mk3 fiasco.

Before you slag off this aircraft the Canadian Armed Forces are hugely up beat about it in the SAR role and they have racked up 1,000s of flying hours in a short space of time.

The main problem in the RN has been an underestimation of the support required of such a modern all singing and all dancing aircraft. The £840m you mention is not to bring current aircraft up to speed it is in fact a full upgrade program(CSP) to the avionics, systems and flight controls (which will make this a fly by light aircraft).

Your short sighted (probably Lynx views) are typical of the misleading scorn poured on this aircraft. Whilst I don't think Merlin(US101) will win the US Presidential race, it has been such a SERIOUS contender to rattle Sikorsky and make them play the Foreign card.

I personally have nothing against the Lynx and note with satisfaction that Merlin chaps do not sit on this network slagging off that force. As is usual when people feel threatened (or jealous) they like to slag of the other guy (see Sikorsky above).

Lets face the facts.

We need a mix of modern and up to date aircraft. With more money we get all we want. That is never going to happen and compromises have to be made. If you have Carriers you need big maritme aircraft to support and protect it- Merlin does this job.

All talk of Merlins and CVS are spurious. Sea King ASW were kicked off way before Merlin arrived and as someone keenly pointed ut earlier its the stores and support setup with GR7 that does it not the other way around.

As with many threads on here we should avoid the shouting and slagging especially intra-service.

The Grey fleet is small and on the whole effective. Personally I will be glad to go back.

Oh and by the way - lets keep recruiting together.

[Navaleye]

Why does a brand new aircraft need an avionics upgrade?

[sweep complete]

Si Clik... WELL SAID SIR

I am almost loathe to read any Merlin threads on pprune these days as you can guarantee that no matter what the original thread was, it will be hijacked by those wishing to slag off the aircraft with their ignorant, mis-informed drivel. We all know it has problems, but some of the c**p that gets posted on here makes me wonder about the people who write it.

I can only agree that feeling threatened and jealousy play a big part in this - and unfortunately these feeling are obviously on the agenda with some the Navy's seniors who really should know better

[hyd3failure]

I have no doubt what so ever that Merlin is a first class state of the art aircraft - When it is servicable !!! When is it going to be serviceable BTW?

I have just one dit to mention. During the visit of a Very senior FAA Officer to a ship he asked ...

"how is the Merlin/Lynx co-op going?"

Reply....

"Its going great Sir, There U/S, we fly ashore to get spares for them, bring the stores back, there still U/S. Thats the Co-Op" !

Enuff said.

I'm sorry but if I had paid that amount of money for an aircraft I'd want the bloomin thing servicable!
If you have Carriers you need big maritme aircraft to support and protect it- Merlin does this job.

Yeah, Right. So which weapon does it use to take out the asymetric threat?

[pr00ne]

I think Navaleye has a point!

(there Navaleye, I said it)

Also, why is it that, out of a buy of 44, the 2 CVS Sqn's have a complement of 4 each and will do apparantely until well into the second half of this decade?
6 operational on 829 for use on T23's..........
14 front line operational frames? What with tiny little SHAR flight sized squadrons that they couldn't man, what is happening to the FAA?

[hyd3failure]

Thats a good point. Apart from the fact that there are not 6 T23 merlin flights....BUT where are the missing aircraft? Seems we may have lost about 25 Merlin.....Hmmmm

[FORMER PIONEER]

HYD3

"Yeah, Right. So which weapon does it use to take out the asymetric threat?"

This coming from an aircraft that still compiles the surface plot on their lap using coloured pens? Does your Nav system still run on Dopple's too?:confused:

[hyd3failure]

Apart from the fact that you are wrong....the pencils are no longer required... It seems that youre entire argument is centred around..."well at least its better than yours"

I agree that the Merlin is a better aircraft than the Lynx. There is little doubt in that. BUT my argument is that if I were to spend the GDP of a small European contry on a helicopter, I'd want it to work when I asked it to.

The merlin has been a complete joke for a long time and its about time it was sorted out.

The people of the United Kingdom paid for 44 Merlin and currently there are 21 in Service. We have been hoodwinked, ripped off and robbed. We want our money back!

[fagin's goat]

This is just a question of money. Sure Merlin HM1 is a fantastic machine BUT...... at what cost. With UK defence living off a fix or possibly diminishing budget it is simply not OK to accept an open cheque book scenario for something like Merlin. It is claimed that Merlin CPS may cost up to 30% of the total pot available for UK military tri-service helicopter support/upgrade. How do you expect Army or RAF helicopter types to look at that?

So, can we have a little more reality from the Merlin drivers on this forum? Yes, a wonderful beast and slowly clawling out of the unserviceability pit BUT let's face up to the true cost in £ sterling against what we have been delivered by industry/DLO.

[Navaleye]

fagin's goat is correct. In terms of value for money the Merlin cannot be considered a wise buy, but the money has been spent now and we won't get it back. After the tragic loss of two 0f 849's SK7s, would it not have been wiser to fit out two Merlin airframes with Searchwater 2000 and low and behold you have MASC several years early and under budget :O Its going to happen anyway. IIRC the Italians already have an AEW Merlin

[welshwizard]

Interesting point by Navaleye. Was not the original concept of the Merlin to provide a common platform across which various roles could be supported. The key word is 'commonality', particularly of stores. It is the logistics support that has failed, not the aircraft.

[hyd3failure]

so, what are the rumours with Merlin and its Logistical support.

[ZH844]

The problem we are facing is that the whole thing is somebody's empire and everyone has different objectives.

MASC could quite easily be achieved if managed correctly but Lockheed would need to be out of the plan as nut and sledgehammer spring to mind - just consider MSCP!

'SMART' does work but it can go very wrong very easily!

The Merlin platfrom is underdeveloped in many areas and there are engineers just waiting to give the RN the aircraft they want and need!

[Bag Man]

Trying to look at this issue without being too emotive we should be asking how much Value For Money we get from the Merlin.

To my SKASaC eye the Merlin programme has cost the tax payer £4bn (cradle to grave) the last I heard. Some would say this is about £100m each airframe, others would say this is about £500m per serviceable airframe (I too have heared that the spares can only support 8 a/c). But who cares how much each flying Merlin costs if it can defend the Crown against the modern threat - like nuclear subs !!!!

Now the SKASaC's new capabilities are another story entirely ... and we get no funding whatsoever - which is why our radio fit is from the cold-war. To make us even more useful to the Marines and the Army (i.e. allow us to communicate with them) would cost about £2m - for the entire SKASaC fleet.

[FORMER PIONEER]

BEEP! BEEP!

The "Kick the new aircraft while it is down" Bandwagon is just about to leave...........

...........All Aboard!!!!!!




Hey, waitaminute! I've got a really great, radical idea. Now it's a bit out of the box (which is not on fire and you don't need a bear suit..) but stick with me..........

Why don't we just let the aircraft mature, the initial support problems be sorted out like most brand new entry into service aircraft, and give it our support - or at least defer judgement and give it a chance? (Especially all those rumour mongers who are actually speaking from a point of ignorance)

[airborne_artist]

Why don't we just let the aircraft mature,

It's fighting machine, not a Grand Cru Bordeaux, and it's already very, very late.

It's meant to do what it says on the tin, not take 10 years to develop a full, round flavour with hints of nettles and blackberry!

[glum]

Trouble is, it's not a mass produced comsumer item with a huge lawsuit waiting if it goes wrong.

Like it or not, it's our lot to develope anything new and shiney until it does what we need it to - long gone are the days when the military did the R&D and advanced technology, which then filtered down to civvy street.

It's all civvies doing the inventing these days, as there's only enough of us to man the front line. Mostly that works, but they have to make a profit, whereas military developers of old didn't. So if something crops up during their R&D, and it costs more, they have to pass that on or go under I guess.

The real issue is that we seem to cock up the contracts and penalty clauses so often, and change our minds with the winds - which can't help.

[Bag Man]

So when this fighting machine (Merlin!) has matured what will it do for us?

My VFM questions remain extant.

[welshwizard]

Replace ASaC !!!

[FORMER PIONEER]

Unfortunately WW, I don't agree................

................We're not a bunch of Freak, Hand Job, Window Lickers :ok:

[VoicesFromTheCreche]

.....Oh yes you are......

:8 :8 :8

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Those who dismiss the problems of Merlin as the teething problems of a new aircraft are deluding themselves. It's been in Squadron service for over 6 years now, the pre-production aircraft were flying trials 15 years ago and the aircraft uses technology that was designed 20 years ago. :\

[crossbow]

I thought that there was nothing wrong with the aircraft and that all the problemns were due to logisitcs and spares.... Are we now saying that the aircraft has something wrong with it.? Whilst Im here. Any truth in the rumour from MOD that the logistic support can only maintain stores support for 6 aircraft and that the rest of them are going to be mothballed? If thats the case and if my maths is correct, that would mean somewhere in the region of £171,000,00.00 sat in the hangar....Hmmmm

Now try explaining that to the little old lady waiting 18 months for her hip replacement !

[Duncan Bucket]

It appears that our White elephant is good enough for dubya though....:ok:

[Fortyodd]

White elephants soon to be available in Presidential Green........................apparently

[Bag Man]

Well said junglyAEO

You ask any Bagger and he will not be able to tell you which aircraft the MASC should be based on - but he will tell you which it shouldn't be based on.

The undeniable facts are this: in the main, the bag is short of three things - height, speed and endurance. In the main, any helicopter replacement for the SK7 would not significantly alleviate these shortcommings.

We could even surmise that if the bag is replaced by Merlin it is absolute proof that we do not procure on the grounds of capability, we provide jobs for the defence industry (and that brings us back to Merlin again - sorry!). In the past this was fine because shortcommings were never brought to the forefront by people dying at the front line due to inadequate equipment!!!

[Front Seater]

Well,

I was poised all ready to join in the Merlin slagging thread. After just finishing an Exercise in East Anglia with 6 AH, Lynx and CH 47 with rumours around that the Merlins were not quite up to the job and have already pulled out of this years NITEX. The ammunition was there.

However, Si Clicks post reminded me that the Merlin appears to be suffering from the same lack of support as the AH does. People (IPTs/DPA etc) want all the bells and whistles of new technology but dont want to support the aircraft with spares, software and infrastructure. Just enough, just in time philosophy does not work in a financially strapped environment.

So, Si - well done. Gossip is great and so is rumour, but sniping from the sidelines is just negative and doesn't do anyone any favours. If you fly the aircraft and you think that it is the best capabability there is and the issues of serviceability are for those well away from the cockpit/airframe...then good on you. Good to see some moral backbone.

In the AH world we too have endured some really ill informed comment from arm chairs afar. Speak to the crews, identify where the issues are and focus energy on the heart of the problem (dont just put yourselves in a flat spin out to see whingeing and whining like an astazou).

[Bag Man]

What exactly do we mean when we say "it's a great aircraft"?

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Well there's only 5 words in your question, so which do you not understand? :}

:{

TOG

[ranger703]

Just breaking now:

Lockheed Team Wins Presidential Chopper

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - In a surprise move, the U.S. Navy has chosen a
transatlantic team led by Lockheed Martin Corp. to build a new U.S.
presidential helicopter fleet in a deal valued at well over $1 billion,
several congressional sources said on Friday.

The decision was a stunning setback for Connecticut-based United
Technologies Corp.'s Sikorsky Aircraft unit -- which for nearly 50
years has
built and maintained the green and white "Marine One" helicopters that
fly
the president.

Sen. Charles Schumer, a New York Democrat, announced the decision in a
press
release, saying Lockheed's victory would bring hundreds of new jobs to
its
Owego, New York plant.

Lockheed, the Pentagon's No. 1 supplier, is pushing a spin-off of a
three-engined EH101 helicopter made by AgustaWestland Inc., an
Anglo-Italian
unit of Italy's Finmeccanica SpA . Fort Worth, Texas-based Textron
Inc.'s
Bell Helicopter is the other big partner.

The contract could also give Lockheed a boost when the Air Force next
year
orders 194 search and rescue helicopters that could be worth more than
$6
billion.

In addition, the winner would have bragging rights that could help sell
another 200 helicopters to the U.S. Coast Guard and Department of
Homeland
Security, plus any overseas bounce.
--

[Heliport]

Just breaking now?

It's been posted and discussed here and in the Rotorheads Forum for almost 12 hours. ;)

[toplad_22]

Now that the yanks have bought Merlin I suppose the Mk1 can kiss goodbye to it's long awaited spares as Agusta/Westlands will be bending over backwards to please it's new best friend !!!

[hyd3failure]

Really great news for WHL. Congratulations to the entire workforce.

[Duncan Bucket]

I knew it, its the Pilot's fault. We should fire them all, then the Engineers can work on the cabs in the hangar to their hearts content without ever having the added pressure of making the aircraft serviceable to fly. And everyone will be happy, because we can wait as long as we like for the "spares to support the intial design " to be delivered, and the parts that were hugely over-estimated in their expected life won't wear out, 'cos we won't be using them.

Yes the drivers are the true villains for expecting too much of the machine they risk their lives in.

Selecting sarcasm off, resuming Sunday afternoon.

[sweep complete]

My God jungly, I thought I'd heard it all, but Merlins problems being the fault of pilots!! :confused:

What planet are you on???

[TheWizard]

It seems that the "c#*p" Merlin appears to have beaten off competition from one of the worlds biggest helicopter manufacturers. Can't be that bad if they are prepared to fly George Dubya round in it! :ok:

[tucumseh]

"Don't blame the procurers or the loggies......."


Good post Jungly. Spot on. Too many requirements are articulated, and hence funding dictated, without support specialist input. As approx 70% of through life costs are in the In-Service Support phase, if you get it wrong up front, it's always wrong. The recent move in DPA to be more strict and trade out performance (not just time and cost) is a direct result of what you describe.

[Si Clik]

Trying to gauge the level of support required of a new aircraft is notoriously difficult as has been shown by C130J, Merlin and Apache. We haven't really even solved the problem with Sea Kings 30 years on. This is not somebodies FAULT but just a fact of the business were in.

Personally the VX1 decision is, I believe, a good piece of news for UK plc and if the Yanks build a better version I am sure (like the GR7) we may just buy it back.

Quantity of aircraft ordered WILL lead to a reduction in costs of unit spares and if the other orders for USAF and USCG go the same way will make the aircraft a truly global product.

Oh and for those of you who always slag this aircraft off - the US101 won this competition against the odds on MERIT.

I rest my case on all previous posts the US NAVY procurement system has proved it.



:hmm:

[Tourist]

Am I just being cynical in thinking that political machinations may have had a hand in the US buying a brit Helo after our long and expensive support of US foreign adventures?

I suspect they, quite rightly, think they can solve bthe problems because they are not a cottage industry

[FORMER PIONEER]

SI-CLIK..............I heartily agree with everything you say in the defence of Merlin, and I also believe it is a cracking bit of kit. We just need the stores/logistic support to catch up, then it will prove itself in the Fleet, and all the naysayers can have a huge slice of humble pie..................

However, I must correct you on one small fact. HMX-1 is the US Marine Corps Sqn that flies Dubya around, and is the Test and Evaluation Sqn for the USMC. They are the one's who had a hand in the decision. VX-1 conducts similar testing and evaluation, but for the US Navy, and so are busy with other aircraft types. Unlike us poor relations, the USMC and USN are completly seperate forces, and never the twain shall meet.

You learn something new everyday.............:D

[fuel2noise]

Si Clic.... get back to the real world!!

"Oh and for those of you who always slag this aircraft off - the US101 won this competition against the odds on MERIT."

The USA choice of 'US101' was not made on merit alone. It is a crum of thanks for UK's adventure in Dubya's Iraq war. Nothing more, nothing less.

Until the RN is provided with adequate stores and engineering resources, Merlin will remain an outrageously expensive solution to a pretty basic problem (embarked ASW/ASuW/HDS, etc, etc.)

[Navaleye]

It looks like the UK workshare will be 20% or less, so its not that huge. It is arguably the most prestigeous project going, so well done. I hope they spend more time in the air than ours do. :O

junglyAEO, I applaud your optimism about getting our hands on a bunch of E2Cs, but I don\'t think there\'s a hope in hells chance of it ever happening. The SK 7 platform has turned out to be much better than we expected. It does have big limitations in covering deep strikes however. I also don\'t see any practical method of landing and E2 on CVF, unless we end up with a CTOL CVF.

[foiled again]

Hear, Hear Si Clik...........

And if there was more than a hint of truth that US101 won on the back of TB's support, who cares. But then that would overlook that US101 was arguably the better fit for the spec required............?

Logistic Support ...... OK, there have been some issues and these will continue. There is however an element of 'you get what you pay for' here and Merlin is no different to any other product or service, it costs what it costs - so if appropriate funding is missing or the scaling somehow deficient.......... ????

The future....... from economy of scale savings to some radical MLUs...... exciting prospects although these won't feed through until the next decade.....

Finally, when the government of the day says jump (or in this case, buy) the MOD is almost duty-bound to say how high (or in this case, how many) rather than why........ Still, in terms of capability, Merlin has something new to bring to the party - just got to think beyond the existing party scenario perhaps.... ??

[High Wing Drifter]

The USA choice of 'US101' was not made on merit alone. It is a crum of thanks for UK's adventure in Dubya's Iraq war. Nothing more, nothing less.
The general point of VXX (US101) is to sell a further 220 to the marines, that is the real prize that LM are looking at. I am sure that the US will throw some kind of lifeline to Sikorsky though.

[High Wing Drifter]

The USAF are looking for a Personnel Recovery Vehicle (aka CSAR) platform, that the Merlin was always touted as a likely platform. Is this what you mean?
Yes, that is what I meant :=

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Perhaps the job losses have something to do with with delays to SCMR?

This (http://navy-matters.beedall.com/scmr.htm) is an interesting article.

See also: 829 NAS (http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/8130.html) and 815 NAS (http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/content/811.html)

[crossbow]

WEBF - good post fella. I think that the majority of job losses at Wastelands are in the rotable section. i.e. Transmissions and drive shafts. Which makes sense as WHL won the contract to build the airframes and R.Blades.
I will be very interested to see how the companies fortunes pan out should they not win F Lynx and like youre link states, the NH90 wins the day.

[dmanton300]

I think that the majority of job losses at Wastelands are in the rotable section. i.e. Transmissions and drive shafts.

Nope, 90 of the job losses are in transmissions. Majority are from the rest of the factory.

[RODF3]

HMX-1 is the US Marine Corps Sqn that flies Dubya around, and is the Test and Evaluation Sqn for the USMC. They are the one's who had a hand in the decision. VX-1 conducts similar testing and evaluation, but for the US Navy


ALMOST CORRECT EXCEPT THE NAVY DID CARRY OUT THE EVALUATION AT PAX RIVER NAS. I WAS THERE

[crossbow]

Nope, 90 of the job losses are in transmissions. Majority are from the rest of the factory


And the rest of the factory do what????? yep...Rotables. Nugget

[WE Branch Fanatic]

From this page: (http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/4451.html)

The Lynx is due to be phased out of service from 2008 when a future Surface Combatant Maritime Rotorcraft will replace it, operating from Frigates and Destroyers of the Royal Navy well into the 21st Century.

Less than four years to go? Might be time for placing orders....

[dmanton300]

And the rest of the factory do what????? yep...Rotables. Nugget

Are you seriously suggesting that all 4,000 people only build transmissions and driveshafts? And I quote:-

I think that the majority of job losses at Wastelands are in the rotable section. i.e. Transmissions and drive shafts.

Your words, not mine. I guess santa's elves must come in overnight and assemble the helos then? Must be a relief for that 4000 to come in of a morning and find shiny new helos have materialised overnight just waiting for transmissions and driveshafts that they all make. . .

What was the nugget comment about?

[crossbow]

Must be a relief for that 4000 to come in of a morning and find shiny new helos

what shiny new helo's? Will that be the four that South Africa have ordered? The four that haven't even had the metal cut yet? So, that 4000 workers and 4 "shiny new helicopters"...hmmmm no wonder there were job cuts !

As for the Lynx. I think you will find that the Lynx is due to be phased out STARTING from 2008. With over 60 airframes, the first one reaches lifex in 2008 and the remainder will go on for sometime...well beyond 2015. Still, that is no excuse for not starting the process to procure NH90...NOW!


A Nugget is a piece of gold

[Bigtop]

There are some incredibly good facts amongst this 'rumour' mill with stats and figures!! Whilst Si Clik is right in what he says and it is a fantastic machine with a huge capability increase over its predecessor - it is still plagued with problems.
Although now detached from the TAS I believe morale is fairly low in the community with limited stores and therefore serviceability. This makes prioritisation a constant battle and training is currently taking a massive hit - any courses running at the mo?? The sim is no doubt doing a roaring trade!!
7 years downstream from the first delivery and I understand configuration issues still abound to boot. Were I Mr Hertz and this was my brand new fleet of Mondeo's I'd be mightily pissed off.

Good news though I hear there's cash to build some new helicopter force HQ's!!

[toplad_22]

There is no doubt that Merlin is a fine A/C, give it an EO device,a weapon, upgrade the software and provide a bunch of reliably available spares and you can forget replacement Lynx and NH 90 it's all there. Give Westlands the contract to build a few more Merlins to augment 829 and the flights and replace Lynx completely, the Lynx crews can all convert, as quite a few have already, the Observer shortage will be addressed to boot.

JOBS A GOODUN !!

[crossbow]

There is no doubt that Merlin is a fine A/C, give it an EO device Its got one!

a weapon what type? ASW Weapon?
upgrade the software Its a brand new aircraft.... why upgrade the software? and if the software isn't correct why accept it?

Give Westlands the contract to build a few more Merlins to augment 829 there are 44 Merlin - what are you doing with them all?

the Lynx crews can all convert, as quite a few have already 2 have !

the Observer shortage will be addressed to boot Didnt know thwere was a Merlin Observer shortage.

Bit of a pipedream but I think what will really happen is that we will support just a handful of Merlin. That will be 5 or 6 maybe 7 at a stretch. This will mean a whole lot of Merlin aircrew will not have an aircraft to fly. They will be invited to convert to Lynx and that will create big problems as upto 40 Merlin crews are sent to Somerset. Now you move into the realsm of somerset not being able to support that many crews.

[toplad_22]

Crossbow, you sound very learned and I speak as a shop floor layman.
I believe the EO device is on loan as a trial, the weapon we could do with is the skua or similar. The software is still good but becoming obsolete ( procurement error ). we have 42 but ditto previous procurement point. As for Observer shortage if we don't have a shortage why the retention insentives?

[crossbow]

Not sure why you would need a Sea Skua - or something similar FTM ? Agree maybe snap a couple of Penguin or Hellfire would do the trick. As for Observer shortage. How many Merlin flights are gapped an Observer?

[Si Clik]

Just to clear things up.

There is a big Observer shortage across the board.

The Merlin issue is short and not long term - in any case there are plenty of gapped Obs Merlin billets.

We have trouble recruiting observers.

Crossbow's Lynx to Merlin figures are a tad inaccurate.

There is a great deal of work going in to the right Lx/Merlin balance and the desire for a 2 aircraft type solution is very much alive.

ALL grey helicopter personnel should WORK TOGETHER to ensure it will work.

:hmm:

[Oggin Aviator]

There is a big Observer shortage across the board.

Just sitting on the fence but will this have an influence on any decision to either discontinue, continue or increase the FRI (for the RN)?

IMO, keeping an eye on the commercial aviation sector, the airlines are starting to recruit more people with low houred fATPLs - a prime job for a disillusioned Obs williing to spend his/her gratuity on a licence.

As I said, just sitting on the fence and sorry to hijack the thread.

Oggin

[Navaleye]

Not sure why you would need a Sea Skua - or something similar FTM ? Agree maybe snap a couple of Penguin or Hellfire would do the trick

Penguin gets my vote, much longer range and a bigger warhead than Sea Skua. I don't think you'd want to get something with the radar sig of a bus any closer to its than you have to.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Crossbow, you sound very learned

So does a Sun reporter but it all depends who the reader is! It's called smoke and mirrors.

Its a brand new aircraft

Wrong. It's been in squadron service for over 6 years. Hardly what I would describe as "brand new."

and if the software isn't correct why accept it?

How naive :hmm: Take it you bought Windows XP and have not bothered with SP1, SP2 and all Critical Updates. After all if the software isn't correct why buy it?

You obviously know nothing about software development and block release strategies. Merlin is now on its third in-service block release of mission software. These were separately funded enhancements due to new requirements. It's due more block releases but I'm not going into detail here.

Ever flown an aircraft with software in it? If you had you would understand that frequent upgrade releases of software are normal, even in the commercial world.

:cool:

TOG

[burpblade]

No Si. Disagree. Drop the political stuff; comes over all wrong.

2 a/c solution?

No dosh/need for one. See……

New(ish)Big one fast(er), talks to many at once, can find needle in haystack above and below the waves, can carry much stuff/peeps, now needs proper eyes to see in dark plus suitable weapons (see above posts).

Old small grey one slow, talks to self plus one other (but usually self), wheezes in hot weather, carries nowt. Can join in most stuff if pressed by thrusting CO but not much kop unless opposition in basic war canoe armed with sharp guava fruit. Perfect match for FF/DD. “ MO” to creep up on death mission with fingers and legs crossed and let rip (respect here – thank goodness not done much). Otherwise good fun for 1 tour eh chaps. Face it. It’s OVER.

Give all kit needed to new(ish) Big one and let small old one dribble on until drones replace. Keys to FAA strong box should be handed over NOW.

Look ahead. Small attack helo? Is a Hind small? Combat power? Don’t make me laugh.

[BossEyed]

Si Clik:
Crossbow's Lynx to Merlin figures are a tad inaccurate.
You amaze me. Crossbow in error? Surely not. :}