Nav to Airline Pilot

[Strato Q]

Now I have no FRI to retain me in a few years, I am looking at options for the future. One of which would be to fork out a load of cash and pursue an airline career, but before I go down that road I would like advice from those in the know, ie those in the industry particularly those who have gone from Nav to Airline Pilot.

How do future airline employers view experience gained as a Nav?

[navoff]

I have very recently left the RAF, destined I believed, to become a Flying Instructor. However, the market is so bouyant at present I have been offered a job with a company beyond my wildest hopes. I believe that gaining a CPL/IR combined with the airmanship gained with the RAF will put you in an excellent position. Especially, when compared to somebody, who has admittedly worked hard, but has the bare minimum requirements.

[jayteeto]

A Puma Nav left about 4 years ago and worked for BM regional. He has just got a captaincy which is pretty quick. The moral? Your brevet doesn't matter, your ability and licence does....

[BEagle]

Several navs have made the transition. Dare I say it, but perhaps the ability to be part of a crew probably helps with multi-pilot CRM etc more than having been the sole pilot of say, a FJ a/c, might?

Good luck!

[Soiled Glove]

There was a study done recently that reckoned that the best Typhoon pilots would be ex-navs! The findings were based on the fact that the aircraft would have a decent Flight Control System requiring less stick and rudder skills and that the job would require people with systems management experience and apparently pilot cross-over navigators best fit the bill!

Modern civilian aircraft are becoming more of a systems monitoring exercise and less of a hands-on experience - AP engaged shortly after T/O and disengaged for Ldg (most times) - so for long haul the AP flies for 99.9% of the flight. The ability to operate as a crew is probably one of the bigger advantages, but the disadvantage would almost certainly be the lack of 'poleing' time that you would offer. I know several navs who made the jump, spent alot of hard earned cash and all have ended up flying for the smaller airlines, however once you get few 1000 hrs with them (about 4 years if you went to EZY) there is no reason why you couldn't look for a job with the 'big boys'.

Good luck whatever you do.

[FORMER PIONEER]

I know an ex dark blue looker who left, got a job with an airline, now flies for the big "V" longhaul. He's say's it's a piece of piss in the cockpit (obviously a bit of an exaggeration, i'm sure some skills are required). Not a lot of hands on the stick required, he say's it's all done by numbers and virtually flies itself. His ability to operate within a crew and multi-task (chat up hosties and eat his top of the line lunch) are far more important skills.

[airborne_artist]

Modern civilian aircraft are becoming more of a systems monitoring exercise and less of a hands-on experience

Other threads here have suggested that longhaul RHS mates are getting to fly one landing a month ....

[Soiled Glove]

Landings are few and far between on longhaul and I have heard that the currency requirements are 3 landings in 90 days - they don't have to be spread equally to one per month! Obviously a nav converting to pilot is unlikely to get a longhaul job at the first application, so he would get more hands on doing a shorthaul job. I don't think many longhaul pilots do the job for the pure flying it requires - more a lifestyle thing.

As regards system monitoring, apparently the favoured quote of a junior Airbus pilot is 'what is it doing now', whereas a senior Airbus pilot would say 'what is it doing this time'.

[Looker]

I made the decision to jump ship 4 years ago - the best decision I ever made:)

I found the crossover relatively straight forward, the exams seemed were pedantic but quite do-able, the poling skills came quite quickly - the most difficult test was the IR. I think the IR would have been easier had I selected the better (but more expensive) flying outfit to do the training.

I got a job 4 years ago whilst still in terminal leave, at this present time I reckon the opportunities are as good if not better than 4 years ago.

Lifestyle wise it sure beats the cr*p out of being at sea;) Pay wise if you land a job with the Low cost outfits you probably wouldn't see a drop in income but with a possible income level that would only come from promotion to Group Captain or above.

It's a no brainer in my opinion:}

Oh and you will be soooooo far ahead of the 200hr Oxford grads in terms of situation awareness and proficiency in manipulating the automatics / FMC that it\'s bound to be noticed!!

Investing your lump sum is always a decision that needs careful consideration. But consider the future of the nav profession- it\'s a shrinking industry with fewer and fewer opportunities:( What are you going to do when kicked out at 55?

Financially it made sense to me to grab the gratuity and pension and start a new career in an expanding industry with opportunities around every corner. The gratuity halved my mortgage and the pension pays for the remaining mortgage payments every month.

If you heartily sick of all the niff naff and trivia that the military throws your way, the SDO\'s etc and just wanna fly then you should consider getting out and achieving your ambitions elsewhere.

Pie in the sky? one of my mates from Cranditz (ex Tornado nav)left at about the same time as me. He's been a Captain with Easy for over 14months, just converted to the A319, earns £65k basic plus sector pay of £9k plus his pension. As I say it's a no brainer

All IMHO of course

Looker:}

[Colonel W E Kurtz]

Getting a little tired of these Big jet pilots have no poling skills comments. Try doing a V1 cut at max TO weight in a 747-400 in the sim, I would put money on most mil pilots stalling and crashing into the terminal building ( I should know I am ex-mil meself )

[airborne_artist]

ColonelK

I don't think anyone was saying that 4 jet pilots have no poling skills - it's just they don't get many opportunities to use them in normal daily flying.

[JEVON]

As an unfortunate Nav that hasnt made it to the OCU, I'm thinking of opting out and going for my APTL. Any advice about who/where and how much?

Although I have limited hours compared to the rest of you who have probably got K's on type, would the fact that I am ex-military (all be it still a bit green) be an advantage?

Any advice at all would be great.

[artyhug]

It must be cold out there mate, nothing to do but post on Pprune huh!

See you for some surfing in May...........:rolleyes:

[meadowbank]

By way of encouragement for Navs, the chief pilot at First Choice is an ex-Phantom nav.

[JEVON]

Deliverance, firstly, not all nav's are failed pilots, some people like to tell others what to do, those people become navigators!

Secondly, having known someone dircetly involved in the Typhoon development, the general opinion amoungst the single seat test pilots (harriers/Jag) was that the Typhoon should be a two seat aircraft dur to the operational loads placed on the aircrew. Generally the only pilots who agreed that it should be single seat were the ones that had never flown single seat a/c (F3/GR1/4).

Thirdly, stick to the topic. From this I assume that you are a piolt as you take some encouragement to follow instructions!

[The Rogue]

Deliverance

I will do your straw poll for you! Just have a look around you, how many chopped pilots are F3 navs, and how many F3 navs are now single seat fast jet pilots. Our shrinking race has already sent navs to the Jag, Harrier, F16 and now the Typhoon. Not wishing to get into a pi**ing match about pecking orders, but your random comment of most of us being chopped pilots was a bit childish. I personally know of no chopped pilots currently serving as F3 navs. (Open to correction if anyone knows any!)
:*

Strato Q

Go for it. Am thinking along the same lines but have not looked at it in depth, but know a few navs who are currently in the process of leaving with their ATPL's and some who are still navs but are civilian flying instructors too, with a view to commercial on leaving. None who have made the move have any regrets I believe. Good luck.

[fatobs]

Strato Q

Good to see some words of encouragement out there.

Am looking to do the same thing myself, 2 yrs to go and counting...

Not sure if age will be a problem (38 when I leave) or the fact that other than training I have only flown rotary.

Good luck

Fatobs

[artyhug]

Would you like some salt and vinegar with those chips Rogue?

Not wishing to get into a p*****g contest but stick a monkey in a jet for 6-9 years and he'll pick up the airmanship required to do well at Valley et al.

The fact that alot of Nav crossovers do well is proof of sod all, if they didn't then questions would be asked. The flying is the easy bit, its having enough brainpower left to remember to breath that gets most ab initios.

And before you come back with a petulant response yes we do know what we're talking about because training your Wonder Navs to be pilots is our job.

So there

Ner ner ne ner ner............;)

[santiago15]

I personally know of no chopped pilots currently serving as F3 navs

At least one on tremblers right now. But then I suppose the banter in the F3 world is how many chopped navs go pilot!

[Fast Erect]

Where are you Scally?

[The Rogue]

;)

Good banter

Artyhug

I like my chips with mayo!

6-9 years applies to a few, but some got chopped as navs and then crossed over. Well done to them!

"And before you come back with a petulant response yes we do know what we're talking about because training your Wonder Navs to be pilots is our job."

And training your wonder pilots to be F3 pilots and NAVS was mine!

Deliverance

"The fact that a lot a navs want to crossover kind of proves my point doesn't it?"

Most of us would like a job in 5 years! I may be serving big macs!

"As for crossover navs, how many after a second bite of the cherry eventually get chopped on an OCU? Too many me thinks."

Don't think that many actually! Otherwise would the scheme have been worth it?

Santiago15

Thanks for correcting me, and yes, the banter is good!

[brakedwell]

Seriously, I think a Nav leaving at the age of 38 has a real mountain to climb. Apart from the old brain and reactions slowing down, there is the cost of the training to consider, together with the lack of a marketable type rating. Competition for jobs is very stiff and most airlines won't look at anyone with less than 1500 hours. Unless a real pilot shortage develops, I suggest accumulating as many brownie points as possible and aiming for the top of the promotion ladder.

[BEagle]

Oh really?

I heard only yesterday of an entirely self-funded Air Engineer who's just been offered a job with a well-repected turboprop airline. No FI rating, no zillions of hours up and down East Florida in a clapped-out C152, just a plain vanilla fATPL.....

Top of the military dunghill? With all the associated stress that goes with it these days.....?? Perhaps running some god-awful Det in whichever country Trust-me-Tone has dutifully followed the Mad Cowboy into? With bugger all chance of any more time in the cockpit?

Or fly for the airlines..? Now that the RAF isn't what many people chose to join, that decision is perhaps easier to make than it was even 5 years ago.

[airborne_artist]

Beags

What could/did it cost the AEO to get his/her fATPL, and how long did/might that take?

[pitotheat]

I left the RAF over 5 years ago after being a frustrated pilot in the back for nearly 20 years. I became a flying instructor and after 500 hours instructing I got a job as a turbo prop pilot which was a great way to learn the craft. After a couple of years I joined my present company where I see myself staying for the rest of my flying days.

To start with I would strongly suggest if you are going to do it then read very carefully the JAR licencing rules that cover the length of validity for your ground school and flying exams. Make sure you do not fall foul of exams that you have already taken becoming void because they have "timed out". Then get your finances together. You really do need to plan the timing and finances very carefully, there are so many people who run out of time/money along the way. Ideally you need to start 3 years before your exit date so that you can work through all the groundschool and flying tests whilst still in the RAF ending up doing your IR during your resettlement period.

As has been said by others don't be too ambitious as to your ability to retrain at your 38 point. There are people of your(our) background who are failing to get on line with jet operators. I am now on the recruiting team and we are begining to see a higher failure rate from second career DEPs as present strong recruitment demand means some pilots can jump straight into higher paid jet operators as their first job rather than take a more cautious route through a Turbo Prop operator.

Make sure you have the support of your family as there will be signicant sacrifices along the way.

The industry is very fickle and can turnaround in a matter of a few weeks yet you have to plan your training 2-3 years ahead of your exit; so much is down to timing. T & Cs are becoming tighter for all operators so it might not be the lifestyle you hope for. Your background will help you stand out on paper with your application form and interview. But remember all the company want is as near a certainty as possible that the person in front of them will pass the groundschool/sim and get on line without requiring extra resources.

I am trying to give you a balanced picture.


Best of luck.

PS. Do I regret leaving the RAF and becoming an airline pilot....not for a moment.

[Giant Swede]

PH

Thanks for the considered wise words. As a Nav approaching the point of no return it is a prime option. Out of interest, what would be the approx cost to go through from scratch and which company has the best rep?
Interested.

Giant Swede

[nimrod]

Strato Q

An ex-Air Eng, I left 4 years ago aged 40 and with only 250hrs got my first commercial work on a wide-body jet.

What got me the job......quite simply my experience.

You have that same experience so my advise would be to go for it. Its great out here!

Good luck

[Flap62]

Pitotheat gave an excellent reply.

Having done my time as fj pilot and now having seen a fair chunk of long haul widebody I can see absolutely no reason why a nav could not make it. It's a job that requires good levels of SA, systems management, crew co-operation. All of which most navs should have by the time they leave. Pure handling skills, while still important, are becoming less "core" for employers It really does come down to luck and timing. You may have to commit to several years paying off a largish (50-60K) debt with a much lower pay than you left on.
Look at the lifestyle choices, not just now but when you are 50-55, and decide

[PPRuNeUser0172]

Agree with flaps that you need to be a good systems operator to be a good airline driver, but you have to ask why most Nav's became Nav's in the first place: medical, aptitude, chopped pilot?? who knows, when the **** hits the fan and a few of those core rudder and stick skills need to come to the fore, I know who I would rather have up front................

[Tea White None]

Strato Q

The market is indeed improving in the coming years as well. I left in Dec 02 as I was going to start a cadetship with bmi despite having just been awarded a pilot crossover.

Even after the the events of 9/11 I still elected to gamble on completeing the training at my own expense after bmi dropped us all like hot potatoes.

I have got my first job, a mere 3 months after I had finished all my training, and it is not with a regional airline. It's not even with a low cost carrier. It's not even with bmi who were hoping to recruit us one we had got our licences. I have got a place with BA and there are plenty more spaces out there, not just with BA but with a whole host of airlines at the mo. Now is certainly the time to start making some of those decisions you have been mulling over in recent times.