Ouch

[rivetjoint]

RAF pals' £25k drink-up
Sun Story (http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005022428,00.html)

[Soiled Glove]

Everyone else would go to Prague and get lagered up and meet some stunning leggy East European blonde - but good to see that the Crandits boys uphold the finest traditions of the Services and wear their DJs in some stuffy old building reminiscent of the reception room in an Officers Mess!

Is the guy at the back wearing a comedy trombone on his head??

[BEagle]

Hmm - no doubt this'll run and run.

Smells as though someone tipped off the Sun (how else would they have managed to get their muck rakers in the right place at the right time?) - and presumably that female wearing the ante-room carpet is the 'girl' in question?

Did anyone.....?

[forwardassist]

So a bunch of aircrew take some aircraft on a cross continental nav, all in the name of training, with the advantage of a good night out as a reward for their efforts, and throw guys in the back to have a leaving run somewhere different, all at the tax payers expense? Everything we do is at the tax payers expense, ffs!
I think a grown up in the PR chain needs to take these Fleet Street hacks aside and explain exactly how much good value for money the UK is getting from their shoestring RAF and the rest of the armed forces.
Jackonicko, surely you can see the blatant armed forces bashing that is going on here?

[hyd3failure]

I'd concur the last sentiment. The RAF PR machine has taken a severe kicking over the past week:

1. Queens Flight lash up (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=4TUTRN0PNYZCNQFIQMGSM5OAVCBQWJVC?xml=/news/2005/01/16/nraf16.xml&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=47428)


2. The sun (http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005022428,00.html)

3. and then the recent story of the Puma squadron taking the aircraft mountain flying only to thin out early to go skiing.


It doesn't seem as though the RAF is getting value for money out of the PR office.....or have they all taken an aircraft away for the weekend moutntain flying in the Netherlands?

[Reverb]

.......and they were not a teeeeny bit suspicious when someone offered to take their photo for them........ with their own camera....................!!

Clearly a tip-off from an insider. :mad:

[Frosty Hoar]

I think we get great value from the raf, infact Im suprised that they not up to this kind of thing every weekend, after all its not as if they are getting paid is it?:} :}

[Regie Mental]

Why is the fault of Corp Comms when the stories are true? The' RAF pilots fly off to [insert country] and booze it up' is a recurrent one (wasn't it Harriers to Spain last year?). All the PR guys can do is seek to push out the positive message that flying nav-exs overseas is an important part of training. However the damage has been done by then.

[hyd3failure]

I think youre right about the training BUT the recurrent theme is the party at the weekend.


Continental Nav training exercises are vital and a very good part of training BUT where does it say in the Instructional specifications that the Continental Navigation training is only good value if you leave on Friday and return on a Monday?

[BEagle]

Hmmm....

When we used to fly our States Trainers, there was no question of any 'weekend off'. After 6 days' continuous, I think we were obliged to have 1 day off (unless there were 2 staff crews working alternate days), but that was about it.

Mind you, the old Vickers FunBus would often break down requiring a new bit to be sent out (slowly) from the UK. Sensible itinerary planning usually made sure that this wouldn't strand the crew in $hitsville, USA - although I did once end up for 5 days in b£oody Little Rock Arkansas when a 30 year old hydraulic pipe finally reached its use by date!!

[jayteeto]

I am as guilty as anyone else of fully enjoying detachments, my comrades will vouch for that. Our overseas trainers (in years gone by I might add) went from monday to friday. Our simulator used to be in scandanavia and I enjoyed that to the full and more. However, it seems that this ran over a weekend and the paper picked up on this. If there had been weekend flying then there would have been no problem. If there was, then fine. If the taxpayer pays weekend hotels then the papers are bound to lock on to this in the current miserly climate. The army and navy will also reinforce their views of the RAF. In the past, my Sqn Cdr refused to pay for a hotel in Newcastle when we went on a landaway for this very reason. We paid for ourselves......... It was worth it :ok:

[Mad_Mark]

I think the problem with this case is that, even IF it was a nav training exercise then why not go one day and return the next, during the week? However, looking at the average age of those in the photo, what appears to be the instructor to student ratio seems a little high!

Yes, we all go away on extremely worthwhile overseas training flights (well, we used to :( ) and whilst there do enjoy ourselves during our free time, but this does appear very much like a group of instructors heading overseas purely for a weekend-long farewell p!$$up :ooh:

What else are Joe Public to think :confused:

MadMark!!! :mad:

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

One presumes SATCO went to carry the imprest?

[BigGrecian]

What they failed to mention on the Royal Flight story is that they were there over Xmas and New Year - I'm sure that some of them (not all) would have rather been with family over that period.

It sounds like someone definitly tipped the sun off - and someone should be trying to find out who.

[sprucemoose]

RAF PR, of course, is its own worst enemy - isn't it frustrating when the Sun tears into the Typhoon for years only to be rewarded by having one of its hacks get the first UK media flight in the aircraft? And such an intellectual report: two pages of "I was really sick!" and then a quick ooh, it's a really good plane...

Not that I'm jealous or anything...

[foldingwings]

Hyd3

There is no alternative. You have to go Friday and back Monday because of the 8 hours bottle to throttle rule!

Sharpen Up!

[hyd3failure]

Damn....forgot that..... But I thought it was 10 hours.... still, whose counting.

[Uncle Ginsters]

You have to love the Sun.....

"RAF boys waste YOUR taxes"

Can you imagine an RAF News headline:

"Sh1te Goverment Leadership wastes YOUR lives" ????

Me thinks not!

I have it on good authority that a lot of the outgoings of said 45 Sqn trip came out of participants pockets....still, i'm sure they're bulletproof on this one (judging by those involved!!;))

The sad thing is that the Sun readership might actually believe this BS!

End of rant. :D

Uncle G

[hyd3failure]

sounds to me as though Uncle G thinks the story is made up and that the RAF Boys didn't waste our money.

Did the boys on 45 really pay for it all themselves?

[propulike]

Daresay the guys in Prague would have been on allowances, anything over the top would come from their own pocket. If I'd had the chance - I'd have spent a fortune of my own cash to have a good weekend away with the boys! Well done guys!

Now the real question.

Who was the girl and how did she know of the chance to manufacture outrage?

[Uncle Ginsters]

Not at all Hyd3,

The guys were on a trainer, overseas, in a decent city.

Would you not pay a few pennies out of your own pocket to make the most of it? (whilst remaining within legal limits, of course).

More to the point, should the RAF not now be focussing its efforts on finding out who the misinformed "RAF insider" is, and dealing with them accordingly ("actions detrimental to the good name and morale of the Service......").
It's very probably a CWL-based newly redundant Trade-Groupee of some discription....Another of Buff's growing army....

Uncle G

[Pontius Navigator]

The other reason for Fri-Mon is aircraft utilisation.

One Friday there is one wave, say A whereas on Monday there are waves A, B and possibly C.

The 'jolly' ac thus flies on sortie A on Friday and A on MOnday and is available for B and C later in the day.

If it flies Mon-Tue it flies out on sortie A and is not available for sories B and C. By the time the domestics have been sorted on Mon evening and Tues it probably returns on sortie B. Three slot have therefore been missed.

It is also good use of ground crew. On Friday the GC stack and start on Mon when the jets return. For Mon-Tue the GC do not stack early.

Ergo it makes operational sense.

Crew duty time is possibly a further factor.

[hyd3failure]

I have done many times... In fact come to think of it, Ive paid a lot more than my own beer...ended up paying for my own accomm more than once as well.

Last time we had a trainer to the Netherlands we discovered that the allowances didnt cover the cost of the hotel and so we ended up forking out the extra. IIRC we got £50-55 per night for the hotel but that clearly wasn't enough and so we ended up somewhat out of pocket.....worth every penny though !




Whats the crew duty time thing about? Are there crew duty times in the RAF ? We have CRP's in the RN but they are so ridiculous that we never concern ourselves with them. i.e. we are not allowed to fly more than 8 hrs a day or 100 hours a month and everyday we have to have 8 hrs of rest.....and those only count when you are at home base...if detached or on Exercise the Detcom can change the rules (to what, nobody knows)

[teeteringhead]

jayteeto my Sqn Cdr refused to pay for a hotel in Newcastle when we went on a landaway Gosh! You really know how to live it up mate!

But I spose it's easier as you speak the language.........:ok:

[Vage Rot]

Think you've all missed the point.

Fly Cranditz to Prague and back in a day or do the same thing over a weekend. Aircraft costs the same, fuel costs the same, handling costs the same.

If these guys elected to do it at a weekend and pay thier own expenses then what's the problem?

All work and no play makes jack a very dull boy. Give us a break, I don't see the Sun complaining about the living conditions in a mud-soaked Basrah or the portacabins at Seeb, Ali-Al Salem etc. Still, it's comforting to know that had I murdered someone I would be accommodated in better conditions and have more rights!

[hyd3failure]

If these guys elected to do it at a weekend and pay thier own expenses then what's the problem?


I totally concur...BUT I have 2 points to make.

1. If they elected to have this weekend bash using the public purse then they should be made to pay the money back.


2. If they did pay out of their own pocket then clearly the RAF are getting paid too much...I quote " They stayed in the Ramada inn (£125 a night) They then ran up a £2000 bill at the posh palffy paslac restaurant. After toasting the queen they chose from tiger prawns, roasted scallops, foie gras and squid followed by young bull steak, venison or salmon then vintage port and cigars.

Phew...... but the best quote has to be from Flight Lt Tony Marshall who added sheepishly " Listen, we have to be a bit careful because there is an element of public funding in this trip" ...ooops

[seven4mankind]

How "undercover" can this girl have actually been in a party of p----d QFIs who all know each other well?
Am I being unfair questioning who she was with and why the hell she was there?

[soddim]

Well, if she was there with a bunch of QFIs she was obviously not out to get laid!

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Being paid too much? I think that most of those there are of a rank high enough that they can afford a decent bash in a nice hotel!

If it had been a group of students however........... the axe swings.........

[Father Jack Hackett]

HYD3

I refer the honorable member to the comments of Pontius Nav.

Flying away last thing on Friday and returning first thing on Monday is the best utilisation of a valuable asset.

It's not just better management of the flying programme. We are leasing the mighty "Bling-Air" so it must be fairly cost effective to spend a few quid on hotel rooms if it allows the ac to be flown more back at Cranners and so get our money's worth.

Anyway shame on those pathetic, treachorous hacks in Wapping.

[rivetjoint]

As I'd never give a penny to that rag does anyone know what aircraft they're supposed to have flown out on?

Oh and for any of those gutter-press journos reading I as an English taxpayer am glad they found something worthwhile to spend £25,000 on for once. I'd much rather it went on that than some equal-opportunities course that was out-dated even when Martin-Luther King was about, or something equally as similar...

[Lee Jung]

I notice that the press doesn't look too closely into the funding of the jobs found in the public sector employment section of the Guardian each week.

No wonder there is a battle over which political party can cut back the most waste.

When the figures are added up the MOD will not be found that wanting (save procurement - but look at the NHS IT system - £30Bn over 10 years). There are plenty of other departments/councils/quangos who leak cash, but it is not PC to look at it too closely.

Once again that makes us an easy target, with no public voice to comment. It makes you sick that those guys made very easily identifiable in the photo are not allowed to publically comment, we have to let the pathetic DCC (N)/(RAF)/(Army) do it 'on our behalf'. The bit£h who used them for her story should not have been given the privacy of having her face blurred.

We should all remember this treatment by the press next time the jackals want a lift in a helo/puff-jet or AT.

Stuff 'em

[PPRuNeUser0211]

btw would have much fuss been made if theyd been out to the prague opera?

[Vage Rot]

I recon they knocked her back - rather than knocked her back out!! That's why she's sore and spilled the beans!!

[Smoketoomuch]

Excuse a mere civvy intruding on personal grief, but am I the only one that smells something very very fishy here?

RAF crew told to hang around in Egypt while Blair suns himself, offered (instructed to use?) top-notch accommodation, on their return find their 'scandal' splashed all over the newspaper.

Similar but twisted story about skiing.

Another about a 'boozy do' in Prague which just happens to have an undercover Sun reporter in attendance? And don't forget The Sun has supported Labour at the last two elections.

Three stories in one week rubbishing the RAF? Coincidence? Come on chaps, don't be so naive. Something is afoot, this has all the hallmarks of a pre-announcement spin campaign by the government. You are being set up for a big fall.

The polls show that Labour will win the next election with a thumping majority, and they have promised to be 'more radical than ever' and admit that some of their plans will be 'unpopular to some'. The public finances are heading for the buffers, there are 101 things that this government thinks is more important to spend money on than defence of the country, and they've been spending hand over fist - but not on you obviously. The problem is that the British public knows that our Armed Forces are one of the few things that still functions correctly in this country, so to 'change the public culture' (as Minister Hazel Blears stated was their wish the other day) they have to be softened up first.

Perhaps it's time to be afraid?

[rej]

Whipping Boy's SATCO

One presumes SATCO went to carry the imprest?

Nah... he must have got a branch change - 'cause The Sun says it was 16 pilots

...... and after all The Sun is always right :ok:

By the way nice smile Guiness Head

[insty66]

Smoketoomuch

You really know how to cheer people up!:{

OTF have been around for years and it is our publicity machine (if was fixed by military techies it would still be working!) that is faulty.

I too, miss those wonderful trips to Berlin. Now that's education!:O :O :}

[crossbow]

Flying away last thing on Friday and returning first thing on Monday is the best utilisation of a valuable asset


How on earth is a super king air 200 (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/525037/M/) a valuable asset?

This thread is following a similar pattern. A well known daily newspaper (the most popular newspaper in the UK and read by the majority (also available in the Officers mess) exposes a scandal whereby RAF Officers are cheating the British public out of their well earned taxes. And then the following day a thread appears on PPUNE and the whole event is defended by similar RAF Officers. Hmmmmm, bit of collaboration going on me thinks...maybe youre all in it...maybe its a massive scandal that youre all trying to hide.....Come on the guys...whats the Scam? How can I get myself on a freebie to Prague/Switzerland/madrid....?

[Mr C Hinecap]

Crossbow. Methinks you are off to Oman for an EX (or been - not sure on timings) and a little miffed that the Holiday Inn, Salalah is no longer an option since we left a lovely little compound for you to use!
Even I know how you get a good trip and I'm blunt. Get near an aircraft with more than 1 seat! :E

[rivetjoint]

I don't work the government and am defending them.

[L1A2 discharged]

Hyd3

the fact that some RAF Officers fraudulently misappropriate government funds,

no proof, not a fact until proven. Probably libellous ....

[jayteeto]

These people operated within the current rules using alocated training hours and funds that were meant to keep them current in AT procedures. They planned well and got maximum benefit from flying THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE ANYWAY. If there is a problem, then it is the system. If the airships do not want this to happen then change the rules, do not sacrifice the crews.

[hyd3failure]

what a load of dross....

They planned well and got maximum benefit from flying THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN DONE ANYWAY.

16 pilots in 4 Super King air 200 (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/525037/M/) .... how on earth is that maximum training benefit...what did they do, sit on each others laps? and why do they need to fly to prague in the aircraft ? where is the training benefit from that...?



Guys, this isnt a dig...I'd just like to know... why Prague and where is the training benefit?

[foldingwings]

Hyd3,

You're way too serious man! If you are in the forces (and even aircrew) then you are being rather disingenuous.

Prague is the capital of the Czech Republic; the Czech Republic is part of NATO; the Czech Republic as a new member of NATO needs to be encouraged in its membership by association with respected members of the alliance; this can be achieved by regular contact at the appropriate military/tactical level (defined in the MOU); an Operational Training Flight (OTF) serves this function admirably because it is "visible" in military air liaison (RAF/Czech AF) terms for NATO; OTFs have been conducted by the RAF to other NATO nations routinely for the last 40+ years; accommodation is not always available on base; the task of an OTF also serves the purpose of the Foreign & Commonwealth Office because it is part of Defence Diplomacy!

Moreover, OTFs are part of the basic training requirement in the RAF (endorsed by Gps and Cmds) and are undertaken to allow crews who do not routinely fly airways or land at overseas bases to maintain their familiarity with GAT procedures etc. OTFs are normally flown as pairs but could quite easily, by amalgamating 2 OTFs, be flown as a 4-ship or as 4 singletons to the same base. Nothing strange in any of that. 2 QFIs in each King Air to benefit from the outward mission and another 2 in each to gain the same benefit on the way back adds up to 16. Excellent economy of scale/effort, I would suggest. OK, so SATCO went, big deal. So the boss flew both legs (his perk) and maybe, just maybe, they have a sqn exchange planned with the Czech AF and SATCO needed to ensure that the Czech ATC procedures measured up!

Finally, I have absolutely no doubt that, unless they did forge the imprest, which is extremely unlikely and would require to be proven in a court of law, they will have done everything within the rules and probably have spent some of their own money at the same time.

The point of this thread is not for military people to pillory fellows who may have done nothing wrong other than become engaged with some wh*re from a cr@p newspaper whilst overseas.

This is getting tedious, so I will end by saying that I am not on 45 Sqn and have no association with it or any of the aircrew nor do I know any facts of the case, just the rules that have applied since I started my flying career.

Oh! And another thing! If you are as I suspect a member of the RN, Hyd3, then lets not throw too many stones or your glass house might just fall down when the Sun gets hold of the fact that it is Navy habit to fly an officer by Civ Air to all ports overseas (any port on the Globe) that are on a ship's itinerary to arrange entertainment for the ship's crew in advance of its arrival!!! I doubt he stays in barracks when he gets there and from my own personal experience on 2 occasions when I was with the RN (on loan) they don't exactly hold back!!!!!!

I'll lay odds that the Czech Sun was not scathing about the arrival of 4 RAF aircraft in Prague but presented a more positive story about the merits of having joined NATO.

Over and out!

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I think all the points about training benefit, currency and utilisation of assets have been well made, so won't harp on. Plus, everytime I've gone anywhere even in the UK I've paid for the majority of costs out of my own pocket; they've been kind enough to reimburse comfortable accommodation but you can't complain about that. Operating somewhere unfamiliar; be it another UK base when on BFJT or overseas on METS or AFT; seems pretty important to me.

As another defence, whatever happened to the old "join the forces, see the world" adage? There aren't many perks left after all :)

[BEagle]

Good job The Scum wasn't at the airshow we attended at Hradec Kralove a few years ago!

It cost next to nothing to stay there for a couple of nights - and the entertainment provided by the host Czech AF was excellent. Which included a beauty contest - and a strip show at the hangar party! It was actually on the tickets "The Commander in Chief of the Czech AF invites you to a hangar party...food...wine...music...striptease show..." That would certainly have had some rancorous, bra-burning old sow from The Scum reaching for her poisonous pen! Particularly if she'd seen the 'velcro effect' being achieved with a 55 Sqn patch on the young lady in question!

A very hospitable nation, the Czech Republic! And we also met a group of old boys proud to wear their aged WW2 uniforms - survivors of those gallant chaps who'd escaped to the UK to fly against the Nazis in WW2. The sort of chaps who gave us the freedom which allows low life journos to report whatever story they choose to snout up from the gutter without being thrown into a Gestapo jail.

[jayteeto]

Hyd3 Read my earlier post as well !! I think this trip was foolish, but the fact is that all aircrew are allocated monthly training hours, whether army, navy or airforce. If you pool your hours you can go somewhere nice instead of flogging around the UK. These hours MUST be flown or else you get into bother. They WOULD be flown anyway.
If your ac has extra seats, use them. The issue here is one of, why go over a weekend. If this had been midweek and free of an extra stopover day, then thwere would be little to answer. Foldingwings said it better than me, they probably operated within the rules. Therefore.... misguided but not guilty.

[rivetjoint]

Maybe Jackonicko can arrange for the Sun "journo" to appear on this thread?

[Mad_Mark]

This isn't about the poor use of training hours, it isn't about going on an overseas navigation exercise and it isn't about stopping people from enjoying what few ligitimate detachments are left.

This "jolly" seems to be a group of instructors (and, I am lead to believe, non aircrew hangers-on) taking a few aircraft away for a whole weekend, simply to have a farewell party for a colleague!

Some have said that leaving on a Friday afternoon and returning on a Monday morning is a better use of airframes. How? Surely it takes out one afternoon and one morning? Leaving on a Tuesday afternoon and returning on a Wednesday morning takes the same frames off the plot for the same 'working week' timeframe. An overnight stop during the week would be one nights hotel bill and one nights rates, not the 3 nights involved with the weekend stopover.

I am not saying that we should not get any OTF's these days, but the excuses coming out for this one seem to be simply cr@p!

Come on boys, was this det simply an overseas weekend party to say goodbye to a mate at public expense? Let's have some facts. How many instructors went? How many genuine students went? How many non METS aircrew/ground engineers went? Did they gets rates? Did they get put up in a 5* hotel? How much of their own money did they HAVE to (as oppossed to want to) spend?

MadMark!!! :mad:

[foldingwings]

Mad Mark

Are you really that sad! What effing difference does it make unless you are another sad journo with an eye for a non-story!? Are you expecting somebody to admit to your implied accusation on this forum? Bugga off and get a proper job!

Transmitting on GUARD this time!

Foldingwings

[Mad_Mark]

No I am not a journo, I am someone that is really p!$$ed off that I have not been on an OTF for about 2 years because there is no money in the coffers for them. Instead I spend all my overseas time on ops, living in s#!t accomodation with no rates with the threat of incoming, whilst there are others popping overseas with their palls for a party.

I would love to find an excuse, and then the public funds, to go on a real OTF, where we get some benefit through real training from our time away, like the Puma guys almost certainly did in Switzerland! Yes, when on real OTF's we enjoy our time off, but we don't plan OTF's around a pre-planned p!$$-up :mad: And no, ops do not cover all the types of flying and overseas cooperation that we carry out and so are no replacement for OTF's.

MadMark!!! :mad:

[crossbow]

Hooray...at last...someone else in the Military who can see through this charade of "for the sake of training" fraud.



all aircrew are allocated monthly training hours, whether army, navy or airforce. If you pool your hours you can go somewhere nice instead of flogging around the UK. These hours MUST be flown or else you get into bother. They WOULD be flown anyway Agreed but that doesnt mean fly to Prague for a party...wher is that in the training manual.

In my service we MUST achieve our minima. If we dont then we fly a trip with an Instructor. However, ever hour of our minima is scrutinised to ensure that we are getting good value for our training. Nowadays every hour is precious and we don't waste them by using tax payers money to go on a leaving run.

[FJJP]

Crossbow, I suspect that you wouldn't turn your nose up at it if a spare seat became available and you got an invite to join the guys going to Prague - would you?

[Pontius Navigator]

Mad-Mark, the point I made earlier was that the PM out would be too late for an arrival so the ac would have to go AM. This means than PM and evening sorties would be lost.

As far as money goes, the allowances are set by the FCO and not the MOD. MOD rules are that the MOD pays accommodation ie B&B at a particular standard. In a NATO Capital that does not necessarily come cheap. £125 per night is not bad; Berlin before the wall came down was more.

The MOD then pays for two main meals per day. In this case it would have been 5 meals. The crew is given cash in hand and may spend or save as they wish. Typically it would be 40% of the hotel bill or £50 per day or £125 for the weekend.

16 guys at £2,000 sheets is just £125. I rest my case.

OK this is what it was when Beags was a kid but it avoided copilots dossing down in pup tents outside the VOQ at Offutt just to save $5.50 per day.

In OSLO, 12 years ago, we got 204 drinking tickets per day; 250 tickets today is cheap.

What we do not know is if the hangers on were supernumerary crew (Queen pays) or indulgence (they pay). I guess their status may well have changed twixt last week and this.

[AllTrimDoubt]

Leaving all the ethics aside guys....class photo or what? !!!

:ok: :ok:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Pontius:rolleyes:

Fantastic creative accounting but what about this, current J model practice I might add, as a cheap alternative for this much needed training:yuk:

Take off from home base, do some of that drivers airframes magic at a couple of civvie bases on route, don't land of course as touching down is far too expensive:rolleyes: , then land at another military establishment for your overnight stop. Stay in the respective messes at no cost then set off for home the next day:ok:

I have not read one credible explanation here for what is as plain as the dark chocolate found in my wifes dark chocolate selection box this Xmas:rolleyes: A bunch of guys have used public funds to go on the pop, it's as simple as that so lets stop trying to justify this in the complete b@@locks fashion being offered here:ok:

It's true they have done nothing criminal, it's been going on for years and will no doubt continue to be the case, they were just bl@@dy stupid for getting caught out in this typical schoolboy manner, but in my experiance as soon as you flash a bit of classy flange in the face of a commisioned officer all common sense vanishes as quickly as my wifes dark chocolate did during the xmas break :E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[buoy15]

I was lucky to have done 15 RUM PUNCH ex's out of Florida over the years, either in hotels or VOQ's, which included B&B plus about $60 a day allowances (meals etc) - also payed for the golf!

Most dets for me averaged 17 days - however, the groundies were there for the best part of 4 to 5 weeks on the same perks
(loads of dollars)

I remember a Wg Cdr (and his family) from STC accounts who pitched up on a surprise check for the imprest holder (OC accounts, funny old thing) late at night.

His pretence was that the AT world was screwing the system and he was keen to adopt the Kipper fleet system of 2 to a room on reduced allowances to keep in budget.

After 5 days, quite impressed with what was going on, he left and we heard nothing more.

2 days later a VC10 arrived with spares, and the Capt refused to stay on base ( Holiday Inn standard) and took his crew down town.

DetCom was a star - he told this shirtsleeve arsehole, if he went down town he would get the bill and a report: he did and he did.

Heard later, that crew had to repay their hotel bills!

ASCOT have being (and still are ) screwing the taxpayers for millions. Bin them!

[Dendmar]

"OK this is what it was when Beags was a kid but it avoided copilots dossing down in pup tents outside the VOQ at Offutt just to save $5.50 per day."


....and Pete Crxwx at the Ramada in Offut - now there's another story! .......

[FJJP]

...which was a load of bolleaux. A typical story that did the rounds - exaggeration heaped on exaggeration!

And no, I had nothing to do with the man - he was on a different Sqn/base.

[BEagle]

buoy15, Strike Command Accounting Instructions are - or were - quite clear about down route accommodation policies and were NOT specific to a/c or roles. So your childish outburst about an Ascot crew several years ago is as naive as it is ignorant.

Regrettably it is the failure of some fleets to abide by those rules which causes problems for others.

And if you must resort to mud-slinging, the behaviour of the SAR Nimrod trail support bunch both at Lajes and Bermuda during major trails has frequently caused considerable difficulty. Teenage NCOs barging into the bar of a major hotel still in their flying clothing, theft from hotels ("sqn gizzits") were just a couple of instances which caused severe embarrassment. In fact their behaviour in the Azores was so bad on one occasion that it caused an international incident.

First take the plank from thine own eye, ***t!

Regarding the apocryphal story of Caligula at that hotel in Bellevue, it was doing the rounds for years - and allegedly was the reason for the introduction of the '7 days in one location' rule.

[hyd3failure]

ALWAYS BROKEN IN WILTS Stated

have not read one credible explanation here for what is as plain as the dark chocolate found in my wifes dark chocolate selection box this Xmas A bunch of guys have used public funds to go on the pop, it's as simple as that so lets stop trying to justify this in the complete b@@locks fashion being offered here

Very true. You have got this spot on fella. They tried a scam and they got captured. And now there fellow officers are back pedalling like mad to save their bacon.

[Lee Jung]

I think in these days of reduced budgets every effort has to be made to keep costs ALARP. This means that if you can plan to use service accommodation, whether Brit or foreign, you are obliged to do it.

If it is unavoidable and you HAVE to go to that airfield then fair enough. But you are using money that could be better used elsewhere.

If we don't practice good financial governance at the lowest level, where spare money can be recouped to fund other projects, then we can hardly complain when cuts are imposed upon us.

A remember an example at staff course when a civvy accountant breifed us that an A1 airfield resurfaces the same car park every year at a cost of £50,000 because they don't want to lose their car park resurfacing budget.

What happened to the PQs test we are supposed to apply to this type of activity? Unless the organisation is so used to Crown funded jollies they have become so financially corrupt they simply don't care.

[Pontius Navigator]

Beags is right. There are accounting rules and some non-professional routemasters are either afraid to use them or accept what they are given.

In Kef we had one captain, very old and grey who threw a wobbly when we refused to bunk more than 2 to a room. Half the crew went to the Bl** L*g**n where we were 2 to a room. Next morning we reported for the flight - rooms were now available back on base so he DELAYED the sortie and the rest of the exercise with the USAF and we had to return and move out.

Next trip billetting apologised that they were very tight on accommodation that night but . . . Immediately the Sqn Cdr said right Bl** L*g**n - all the crew, I am not splitting the crew.

Next day billetting rang and said they now had enough rooms on the base. No, he said, I have unpacked and I am staying where I am.

Great man Malcolm unfortunately died of C a few years before he could draw his pension. Liked his King Teds too much.

[hyd3failure]

If we don't practice good financial governance at the lowest level, where spare money can be recouped to fund other projects, then we can hardly complain when cuts are imposed upon us.
Thats a good quote from Lee Jung.

So, we can blame the cancellation of CVF and JSF on the fact that 16 beefers went on a beano to prague....thanks guys.

[jayteeto]

Just before I left the service, I had to do a trip to London that involved first class rail travel. The SAC in headquarters suggested that I might want to save money by going second class. My reply? Do Air Officers take second class tickets?...... No........ Well seeing as we have the same entitlement, I will stop when they do.
This was selfish of me I know, but as I have said earlier..... If the rules are wrong, then CHANGE THE RULES!!! Do not criticise these people here for operating within the guidelines. Foolish - Yes / Guilty - NO

[rivetjoint]

If it is unavoidable and you HAVE to go to that airfield then fair enough. But you are using money that could be better used elsewhere.


I'm sorry but this day as an outsider my view is there is too much money being spent on making the RAF a PC friendly corporation, than what it should be, an offensive and scary military force who must make sure their members are kept happy enough to die for their country.

[Jackonicko]

It's not, or shouldn't be, a major scandal. I suspect that most Sun readers would view it as a 'non-story' and I'd be surprised if it got a right hand page. It was wrong, it was silly, and in such times of financial stringency and under-funding, it should not be accepted or repeated.

Defending costly perks like this while the Salami slicer gets quite so close to the bone smacks of an almost Neroic ability to play the violin while Rome combusts.

[BootFlap]

For crying out loud, they were authorised to do this OTF . It states it in GASOs as an annual requirement. No one has proved that they have mis-used public funds, and if I was 45 Sqn I would be sueing the ar%e of anyone who claims otherwise without cast-iron proof. Hyd3, have you got any proof then? You seem to be happily banging on and casting your aspertions around with great abandon.:mad:

[Splash Coxswain]

Methinks the point is becoming fogged by an age old internecine fight between those who are not and those who are!

Who are what?

Aircrew or Groundcrew!

Officers or ORs!

You choose but remember the old adage: If you ain't aircrew you should have worked harder at school.

Oh! And by the way, if I am right, this is an aircrew forum so if you ain't go elsewhere to offload your prejudices!

[Uncle Ginsters]

Hyd3 / Lee Jung,
You seem to honestly believe that this was a blatent dash for freedom out of the London FIR to greener pastures, costing thousands of ££'s and potential future hardware!?!

In this great day-and-age of contracted out ac provision, hours are allocated for everything. If the guys went to Prague, they did so on allocated hours that have already/would have been paid anyway for the task.

If the local users had the nouse to kill 6 birds (except the Sun bleeter :sad: !) in one go, then why not?

If anyone is, as it would appear on this thread, dying to get on an OTF, then it's only because all of the fringe/minge benefits (del. as app.) have already gone from the Service - and that's the fault of individual aircrew as well, is it boys ??

In sum: It's a non-story by a BS-ridden rag. If you have any beef with a legit trip - dry your eyes! There has to be some compensation for a life at Cranditz!

:D

Uncle G

[didnt-try-at-skool]

Splash

You choose but remember the old adage: If you ain't aircrew you should have worked harder at school

Beats me how you can survive life looking at the world upside down. Your head seems to be so far up your own ar$e that you can now see through your mouth. Take your teeth out you will see better.

Oh! And by the way, if I am right, this is an aircrew forum so if you ain't go elsewhere to offload your prejudices!

To mention what the forum is all about

"A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here."

Nuff said :ok: :ok: :ok:

[hyd3failure]

For crying out loud, they were authorised to do this OTF . It states it in GASOs as an annual requirement


I know, I know....they must say the following:


1. It is an annual requirement that all Instructors regardless of their rank or aircraft type MUST complete an out of area beano. This MUST (R) MUST include packing the ritual DJ should you happen across a party or an opportunity to dine someone out.



"They were authorised to do this"...For crying out loud, Grow up.

[Uncle Ginsters]

http://www.ci.pleasanton.ca.us/images/darecar-lights-anim.gif

Who called the fun police?

You need to get out more/at all, mate.

So now you're implying that the auth's to blame?
Surely not the overall supervisor on the spot knowing all the facts/aims/costs of the trip and it's knock-on effect on the whole 45 Sqn programme? How couldn't he see this blatent abuse of the system when the Sun (and you) can? ;)

Who needs to grow up, now really?

(and no, i'm not on 45 :ok: )

[Splash Coxswain]

Now that must be a better strike rate than Mike Hegland!

Managed to cast and catch "didnt-try-at-skool" in 1 hour and 7 minutes and him on his first post too! Yeah, Right!!

[BootFlap]

Hyd3

you obviously mis-understand me. I am not talking about an individual authorisor, I am talking about Group Orders. They state that there is an Annual Training Requirement to undertake 1 x Overseas Training Flight per pilot. Therefore the Sqn in question was not doing anything wrong. The fact they pooled their resources and managed to enjoy themselves seems like a great plan to me.

Once again I ask if you have any proof of wrong-doing', or is this your own personal dig? I for one will not 'grow up' if it means I have to stop doing something I am blatantly allowed to do.

[foldingwings]

Hyd3,

Uncle G makes a very good point you know. You are letting this really get too deep under your skin. Visually, would that we could see you, you must be quite blue in the face. I should calm down or you might just raise your blood pressure beyond acceptable limits for your flying pay to continue (always assuming......following Splash's cast into the banter pool!)

Chill, man! Count up to ten, get some fresh air and move on!

[hyd3failure]

You are misunderstanding me. I totally agree that we should all conduct an OTF annually....my point is that where does it say ensure to pack your DJ's.

The Orders state you should conduct an OTF annually. Where is the party/Piss up in that. Why does overseas immediately mean a party?

Why not fly there, refuel and come back. You still achieve the OTF. The reason for the OTF is to practice navigation in an unfamiliar environment and to plan and liase with Foreign ATC agencies. It is NOT and should never be an excuse to scam the public purse like this lot have. Once again I quote from Flight Lt Tony Marshall who added sheepishly " Listen, we have to be a bit careful because there is an element of public funding in this trip"


why did they have to be careful? What were they hiding? where is the element of public funding?

[poacher1]

Hyd3 "Once again I quote from Flight Lt Tony Marshall who added sheepishly " Listen, we have to be a bit careful because there is an element of public funding in this trip" "

I have it on good authority that this was not said, at any point, by anyone. In fact very few of the 'facts' within the story appear to be correct.

Given the Sun's reputation, I am surprised that you are so quick to condemn people who were operating within the rules.

[Roghead]

What a terribly sad place the military must be now. Surely the likes of the green with envy bu88ers are few and far between. Please tell me so.:confused: :confused:

[Guern]

"Why does overseas immediately mean a party?"

Hyd3 so are you saying they should have gone to stay in a monastery for the weekend??? Or locked themselves in hotel never to go out until the trip back?

[foldingwings]

Sorry to be a bit old fashioned here but perhaps this will help Hyd3 with his problem.

When I were a lad, a proper officer never went anywhere without his DJ (one memorable night at The Tropicana floorshow in LV wearing Tuxedo paid dividends later, if I recall, and yes HMQ paid for me to be there on Ex but I paid the entrance fee etc etc).

Looking at some of the QFIs in the picture, I suspect that they are of similar vintage to me and were abiding by that old tradition!

Give it a rest Hyd3. Frankly, you are becoming rather bloody boring now! You've made your point, nobody agrees (bar Lee Jung and Mad Mark who can't get the sand out of his tent) yet you insist on behaving like a petulent teenager!

[hyd3failure]

are you saying they should have gone to stay in a monastery for the weekend??? Or locked themselves in hotel never to go out until the trip back?

Nope but they should have done what everyone else does and fly the OTF and then come home. NOT spend my tax on a beano, which this clearly was.

When I were a lad, a proper officer never went anywhere without his DJ
Do RAF Officers all fly with their DJ's then? Do you all take your DJ's on an OTF ? Come on guys....whose telling porkies here...

They took their DJ's because "an officer never goes anywhere without his DJ" and bugger me if it didn't happen to be someones leaving run as well....Hey, thats lucky they took their DJ's then...

back pedal, back pedal, back pedal. You all know, every one of you that this was a gross misappropriation of public spondoolies....AND in a vane attempt to justify the waste and as a rescue package for your own Beano's you are defending this as if it was good value for money....

Right. I'm off now. Had enough of this thread. C ya all at the bar (in my DJ - which I just happen to have in my overnight bag)

[foldingwings]

Mayday, Mayday, Mayday!

Straight Jacket required and 4 burly men to assist with sectioning of Hyd3 in Somerset ASAP.

He's lost it and is in full rant mode on "Aircraft Commander" also.

Also using profane language without employment of hyroglyphics, clearly lower deck attitude!

Mayday, Mayday, Mayday!

[RADAR Advisory]

I've been following this thread with some mild interest. I don't see how a squalid-little-rag of a paper can cause such a stir amongst supposedly intelligent people?!

IMHO if there happens to be an opportunity to dine-out an officer, who has given decades of service to the UK, why not take it? I think there are some people who think that this was a trip PLANNED just for a dining-out jaunt. Sounds to me like this approaching slander!



Time to rest the sphincters, me thinks!:E

RA

[lineslime]

I went to see my local careers office, and am now convinced that the only other places that exist in the world (other than the UK)are middle eastern deserts, african jungles and a small rocky land mass somewhere in the south atlantic.

Perhaps I should have paid attention at school?

I'm not bitter (although it sounds otherwise), but I am safe in the knowledge that if it wasn't for the skills of people like myself then airframes for these jollys wouln't be available. It would be nice to be appreciated and taken on one once in a while though.

[Tarnished]

Doesn't it all come under the "Forces X-Factor"??

The powers that be have decreed that OTFs are required. They must also have agreed that reasonable costs associated with the OTF are acceptable and in the budget. I'm sure it doesn't say the OTFs must or must not include an overnight or weekend stay at the taxpayers expense. I'm sure the budget allows for a proportion of OTFs to be more than a day trip out and back. It must then surely be left up to the squadron boss to decide/agree how to distribute his resources. A bit of a reward for working hard, a bit of recognition for the good guys. Nowt for the moaners "its not fair"!

Please, there is more than enough negative X-Factors to still outweigh this sort of positive X-Factor

And surely the supervision is such that the impress and claims are checked before submission??

T

[foldingwings]

Well said, Lineslime (I hope that you don't really feel like your name). If I were running a squadron and you were on it with an attitude like that you would be first in the queue for a jolly and I'd buy the first round when we got there.

[lineslime]

If only there were more people who think like that, the RAF would be a far nicer place.:ok:

Don't suppose you fancy taking over from O/C Eng at Lyneham?:E

[Pontius Navigator]

Wrong chaps. Well prepared aircrew ALWAYS deploy with kit appropriate to the mission.

On an operational deployment with a bomb bay full of bonbs, the first thing I had to do in accepting the load was load the COs golf clubs on the forward fuselage tank.

Frank Bonfield and his crew ALWAYS came in on the Exercise Micks and Mickey Finns with the expectation of going to the country club near Manston. And that was 40 years ago.

No allowances though just a few ton of avtur.

[BEagle]

Wrong, PN, some tw@ts often deploy with what they hope might be needed....

Deployed with a 3 VC10K operational det to Leuchars many years ago to support Northern QRA when the Sovs were having a big naval exercise. I was on the first a/c in and, as underwarmonger, set about organising the readiness declarations with our AD taskers. We'd hold 2 at high RS, the other at 1 hour. The station support was excellent and 'Big George' of VASF had his team all raring to go. Then the next a/c landed, taxiied in and shut down. They wouldn't answer the ops RT. Up went the steps...and the first person out of the door was an aged ex-10 Sqn AT Air Eng complete with golf bag.

Chief warmonger, quite rightly, went nuts. "You're not on f*****g holiday, your here on Ops. Get that a/c turned to Readiness 30 NOW!"

And so they stayed for several hours! It was a good det, lots of piccies of Ivan and lots of flying. And NO SODDING GOLF!

[ShyTorque]

This thread makes me feel very happy to have left the mob some years ago. What pathetic bunch of losers would complain about the chaps just using their noddles to make the best of an opportunity?

Ferchrissake, it's not surprising that morale in the services is bad.

"All leave is cancelled until morale improves! Burn another sack of mail - except the ones edged in black" :rolleyes:

[Hueymeister]

Shy..I'm with you..let it go...you're all holding on too tight.....besides, who really gives a monkeys. The hours had already been bought and paid for in the contract, as they are all leased.

Let it go..........

[Pontius Navigator]

Ah but Beags the new wave was approaching even then. Mind you one day she who must be obeyed was rung by sqn to say that I would not be home that night.

I know she said. How do you know? He took his civvies with him!!!!!!!!

I did, they were in my para bag, far more useful than a parachute, and true enough we had 3 days at Waddo. I must confess I only had one change of underwear which was rather better than some less wholesome people.

[PTT]

There is a massively disproportionate response to what's going on here. Every job has its ups and downs, and this was one of the ups - the guys used a legitimate training requirement to have some fun. The purpose was not de facto to get p!ssed, it was to carry out an OTF. That they used it to have some fun (hopefully) within the rules speaks highly of the initiative with which we like our officers and airmen to be instilled.

Similarly, 33 Sqn spent a few weeks in Switzerland where they got excellent experience from high altitude training in blowing snow - not an easy thing to do in a helicopter, and tough conditions to find anywhere, especially outside a ski resort. That they had a good time there is one of the ups. What is one of the downs is that there are people on the sqn who will be spending at least a third of a three year tour in Iraq. And they are begrudged a 3-week exercise someplace nice? Perspective check...

[FJJP]

...Ehrrr - am I missing something here? We seem to be the only ones talking about it now... I had forgotten Switzerland in all the euphoria of taking apart the Prague incident. In case no-one has noticed, there are gaudy pics flashed across the press at the mo' dealing with some Cretins in Germany...

If we stop posting now, it will all go away until the next no news day or the next pi**ed of erk calls the Scum with a hot juicy tip.

[lineslime]

MJ

I only wish I went to the same school as the Bush pet monkey, who knows i may have ended up with a propper career with prospects.:rolleyes:

[teeteringhead]

Well prepared aircrew ALWAYS deploy with kit appropriate to the mission. ..whereas the grey funnel line only ever deploy with working uniform...I don't think so!;)

Sorry I forgot .. alongside Cocker Ps are Defence Diplomacy aren't they!!:rolleyes:

Motes and Beams chaps..

[BEagle]

One of HM Grey Funnel Line's little grey boats - I think it was the Iron Duck - once arrived weeks late at the Malvinas after having been delayed to keep an eye on the warring fuzzy-wuzzies in some third world ****pit (from a prudent distance, of course). It was supposed to be the Malvinas guard ship. So did it stay for the originally anticipated period of time after arriving late? Of course not; cockers Ps up and down the South American continent to attend were of infinitely greater priority.......

[hyd3failure]

One of HM Grey Funnel Line's little grey boats - I think it was the Iron Duck - once arrived weeks late at the Malvinas after having been delayed to keep an eye on the warring fuzzy-wuzzies in some third world ****pit (from a prudent distance, of course). It was supposed to be the Malvinas guard ship. So did it stay for the originally anticipated period of time after arriving late? Of course not; cockers Ps up and down the South American continent to attend were of infinitely greater priority.......


I recall a certain grey funnel liner which was acting as the Malvinas guard ship and because of the warring fuzz-wuzzies the ship didn't actually cross the line (Equator).

[Lee Jung]

I suppose at the end of the day all this comes under the 11th commandment:

'Though shall not get caught'.

I remember what my first squadron CO said:

'If you f*$k up in good faith I will back you to the hilt, if it is either malicious or indefensible you can stand by'. Still a good maxim, however I wouln't expect to be backed up these days.

[hyd3failure]

Why wouldnt you expect the same maxim from your current CO? Why would it be different today?

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Lee has hit the nail on the head as whilst the guys have not done anything "wrong" they got caught, and in the current climate I imagine will have a hard job explaining, should someone way up the food chain enquire, the use of "betty's" money in this manner :ok:

Hyd 3

Guess you have yet to meet some those that Lee alludes to. We know, in the main, how they got to where they are today and how they intend getting somewhere higher tomorrow........hence his thoughts:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[hyd3failure]

Ah, Im with you now. Still, it doesn't make them bad people (or does it)

[FJJP]

... and still we talk about it...

[BootFlap]

Talk about what?:p

[FJJP]

Precisely. The End.

[propulike]

Actually, I quite like encores.

[Lee Jung]

Ouch II coming soon to a thread near you.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Having now recognised two of the culprit's as recently coming from "my neck of the woods" it's all starting to make sense :E

all spelling mistakes are "df"alcohol induced

[hyd3failure]

what does that mean? Pray tell

[Stitchbitch]

Lineslime, perhaps you should get yourself in the 'rotary way' and enjoy some OTF action. Having been on one of the so called 'jollies' (working 8-10 hours a day, 5 days a week, skiing at the weekend on OWN money) I can honestly say it was a great welcome to the work hard / play hard ethos.
There was a chap on the Det who now works freelance for the daily m*rr*r...make of that what you will....:ok:

[lineslime]

With less than 2 years left to do I don't really think a posting will help with my resettlement, but thanks for the offer anyway. I will just see out my days trying to get my head around the lean way of doing things and live the low life trying to keep albert flying.

[flipster]

Come on chaps - everyone is just plain JEALOUS!

All the bitching on this forum (and the Sun) is just a smokescreen for envy - shame on you all.

It is sooooo obvious that all of you would have loved to have been there - I know I would have! Sadly, it appears I left Cranditz a few months too early!

Well done 45 - keep up the good work - you have deserved at least one night off after all your hard work for HMG of late. It is so good to see so many excellent and hard-working characters had a good time but I didn't expect to see you in the SCUM!

Don't worry - all this cr@p will soon be forgotten and become 'old hat' (but I suspect you lot won't forget a good night out amongst friends - cos that's what it is all about).

Flip

ps I am off to PRG for a few nights away with Mrs Flip and some civvie chums. I would be v grateful if any of you could PM me with some good tips for a night out there (and which women to avoid)........seriously!

[crossbow]

More Ouch (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1168283,00.html)

Now that is wasteful. £25k for a jolly to Prague was peanuts compared to this. Mind you,surely the trip to an airbase in Somerset MUST have been on official business.